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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: Jay0777 on Saturday 07 November 09 20:17 GMT (UK)
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Researching the Patterson family from Forfar and Kinnell. Have quite a bit of information if anyone needs it. This family originate from Latheron, though I do not have much information on the Latheron side!
Jay
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Hi Jay,
My name is Jennifer and I'm researching this family as well; since there appear to be quite a number of people by the name of Paterson/Patterson from that area, I'm not sure I'm researching the same line as you. I would love any info you have to see if it matches up with the tree I have. Right now, the furthest I go back on my tree is to James Paterson/Patterson (b. 1767 unknown location in Scotland, d. 1842 Muirside, Kinnell, burial at Kinnell Church). He married Jean Cothill/Cuthill in 1796 in Kinnell (she was from Kinnell, he from Carmyllie at the time).
They had quite a number of children. I'm descended from their daughter Jean (b. 3 Apr 1808 in Carmyllie). The first 6 children (b. between 1796 & 1806) were born in Kinnell; the next 6 (b. between 1806 & 1817) were born in in Carmyllie. Family move back to Kinnell between then and 1841, because I have that census, and James & Jean died and were buried there.
I would love to find out birth place and parents for James (and Jean) and siblings for them.
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Hi Jennifer, we are indeed researching the same family. I have a fair bit of information which I will pass on to you but will have to look out my notes. I have attached some info I got from someone else who, as it turned out, was researching the wrong family. I also have a photo of James and Jeans 3 sons George, Francis and William and also of George's extended family (this is the line I'm interested in) Not sure how to get a copy to you as the site advises not giving out email addresses.
Anyhoo here is some info for you. I myself have followed down from George Patterson marked ***** James and Jeans son and will look out my notes on them if you want them? Let me know.
Alexander Paterson married on 01.01.1763, Latheron, Caithness to Elizabeth Sutherland - 4 children (possibly 7):
John (b. 22.04.1765, Latheron, Caithness)
*James (b. 11.04. 1767, Latheron, Caithness; d. 23.02.1842, Muirside of Kinnell, Angus)
Francis (14.08.1769, Latheron, Caithness) - married Janet Sutherland on 13.04.1785
Jean (b. 1772, Latheron, Caithness)
Jean (b. 04.1775, Latheron, Caithness) ?
Christy (b. 03.1780, Latheron, Caithness) ?
Isobal (b. 23.03.1788, Latheron, Caithness) ?
*James married on 12.12.1796, Kinnell, Angus to Jean Cothill (b. 03.05.1774, Kinnell, Angus; d. 04.08.1843, Muirside of Kinnell, Angus) – 12 children:
Robert (b. 03.02.1797, Kinnell, Angus; d. bef. 1842)
Alexander (b. 16.09.1798, Kinnell, Angus; d. bef. 1812)
Thomas (b. 03.02.1800, Kinnell, Angus; d. aft. 1881)
*John (b. 02.03.1802, Kinnell, Angus)
Francis (b. 19.06.1804, Kinnell, Angus; d. 1891, Arbroath, Angus)
James (b. 01.06.1806, Kinnell, Angus)
Jean (b. 09.04.1807, Carmyllie, Angus; d. aft. 1881)
David (b. 13.05.1810, Carmyllie, Angus)
Alexander (b. 26.05.1812, Carmyllie, Angus; d. 18.08.1880, Midlothian, Edinburgh)
Mary (b. 20.11.1814, Carmyllie, Angus; d. bef. 1842)
George (b. 22.04.1817, Carmyllie, Angus; d. 01.07.1897, Newmountainhill, Forfar, Angus) *****
William (b. 22.04.1817, Carmyllie, Angus; d. 03.03.1902, Muirside of Kinnell)
*John married on 07.08.1824, Kirkden, Angus to Jean Grant (b. abt. 1805, Kirkden, Angus) – 6 children:
Sarah (b. 03.11.1824, Kirkden, Angus)
James (b. 11.06.1826, Kirkden, Angus)
Jean (b. 06.07.1828, Kirkden, Angus)
David (b. 06.07.1830, Kirkden, Angus)
*Alexander (b. 26.10.1832, Kirkden, Angus; d. bef 1897)
Margaret (b. 14.03.1835, Kirkden, Angus)
*Alexander married on 01.06.1862, Monifieth, Angus to Marjory Yeaman (b. 23.01.1834, Aberlemno, Angus; d. bef 1897) - 6 children:
Mary (b. 18.10.1862, Dundee)
John (b. 21.09.1864, Dundee)
Marjory (b. 25.09.1866, Dundee)
David Yeaman (b. 25.09.1869, Dundee)
Jane Yeaman (06.01.1875, Dundee; d. 21.10.1963, Brechin, Angus)
*Isabella (b. 25.11.1875, Dundee; d. 12.04.1947, Ethiebeaton, Angus)
*Isabella married on 09.06.1897, Arbroath, Angus to Alexander Donald (b. 13.02.1872, Kinnell, Angus; d. 12.04.1947, Ethiebeaton, Angus) – 14 children.
Hope this makes sense to you. Let me know if you want the information I have on George.
Jay
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Hi Jay,
I'm so excited by this! It looks like we are distantly related. So cool! I'm going to PM you my email, so check on RootsChat under the My Messages tab, so we can exchange emails. The info you have given so far definitely helps, on the James Paterson side; still working on the Cothill/Cuthill side. I did not have Jean Cothill's birth info, so would love more info on that since you do have a birthdate for her listed.
Also, I've done a fair amount of searching into Jean & James' son, George. He married Elizabeth Farquhar, correct? Do you have info on a 2nd marriage to a Mary Wyllie by any chance? I also think I have some information on George's twin brother William as well.
Best,
Jennifer
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You may have found her already(?) - but I can see a Mary Ann Cuthill with Patterson and Wyllie given as her 'other surnames' on SP who died aged 86 in 1896 at Forfar. (Just had a look through an old search list I had).
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Thanks Breaky,
Thanks! I did not have the death record, but just downloaded it, and it is her. Are you researching the same family by any chance? If so, you may already have this, but let me know if there is anything below that you don't have and I'm happy to share it.
Interestingly, Mary's death is indexed under all 3 surnames (Wyllie, Cuthill and Patterson). I was interested in the record because I am researching the lines of Jean Cuthill (also listed as Cothill in records) and James Patterson (also Paterson). My direct line (as I said above) is from their daughter Jean Patterson (married David Forbes), but am trying to fill in info for all of her siblings as well.
I am particularly interested in her brother George, as I've found 2 people who appear to be distant cousins to me (Jay here in rootchat; someone else in ancestry who is a DNA match to me). I know George married Elisabeth (Betsy/Betty) Farquhar and have some of those census', but found one later in 1881, where he is listed in the same location as previous census', but this time with his brother Thomas, spouse Mary (not Betsy); the census details are:
Location: Gate Lodge Cemetery, Forfar, Angus, Scotland
George (63)
Mary (70), wife
Jemima (23), daughter
Margaret (11), granddaughter
Bella Hutton (sp?) (5), granddaughter
Eliza Patterson (16?), granddaughter
Thos Patterson (82), widow, brother
So, that lead me to search for Betsy Farquhar's death btwn 1871 & 1881 (which I found in 1876); then for marriage to Mary Wyllie afterwards (which I found in 1877). FYI...I cannot find a birth record for Mary under the surname Wyllie (nor under Cuthill); but I see in the death record for Mary that it looks like she may be illegitimate.
Here is where the surprising info comes! In the marriage record, George and Mary are listed as cousins! His parents are Jean Cuthill and James Patterson, hers are Elspet (Elspeth) Cuthill and James Wyllie.
Now, I'm assuming from this that Elspet and Jean are sisters? Though I suppose Elspet and Jean could be cousins, which would make George and Mary more distant cousins?
That is my question and dilemma, since try as I might, I can not find birth info for Jean to assess parentage. I can't find Elspet/Elspeth either in birth/baptism records. The earliest record I find is a marriage record of her to a John Calder on 20 Jan 1828, Forfar,Angus,Scotland. I then find them together in the 1841 census in Forfar as follows:
James Hendry 58
John Calder 65
Ilspeth Colder 59
Mary Colder 29
By the 1851 census, Elspeth is living with Mary, so John must have died. I find Elspeth and Mary together in 1861 census. I also have a eath record for Elpeth 27 Mar 1863 in Forfar, age 84, widow of John Calder. Her parents are listed as Robert Cothill and Margaret Butchard. Informant listed as George Patterson, nephew.
So, this leads me to further conclusion that Elspeth and Jean must be sisters. If they were cousins then George would not be her nephew, but her cousin as well..correct? This would then mean that Robert and Margaret are also Jean's parents (or at least one of them would be and the other a step parent).
Let me know if you want/need me to share any of this.
jen
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Jennifer, just read your last post and vaguely remember the names of Jean Cothill Patterson's parents being Robert Cothill and Mary White. I can't find the paperwork connected to this so I may well be wrong.
Jay
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Hi Jay,
thanks so much for that last bit of information! I've finally broken through that wall on finding Jean's birth record! The spelling of the names have been inconsistent, from Cuthill to Cothill to Coathill (in 1 record) and Cuthills (in 1 other). However, I still was unable to find Jean on Scotland's People, despite using these various combinations. And most of the ones I was able to find had Robert Cuthill as the father and Margaret Butchart (1 has Richart) as the mother. Knowing that Jean was the sister of Elspet, it was likely that they shared the father, since they had the same last name
So with your information, I tried searching the town of Kinnell in the time frame she should have been born 1770 to 1776, with just Jean as first name and White as the parent name...and BINGO.
Jean COTTHILL (2 T's). Father: Robert, Mother: Mary White. And, this revealed several more siblings!
Robert Cothill/Cuthill & Mary White:
David Cothill (b. 26 May 1770)
Robert Cotthill (b. 27 Apr 1772)
Jean Cotthill (b. 3 Apr 1774)
Robert Cothill/Cuthill & Margaret Butchart (m. Aug 1778):
Elspet (b. 1779)-parent names on death record are Robert Cothill & Margaret Butchart. still cannot find her baptism record
James Cuthill (b. 29 Jan 1781)-to Margaret Richart
Grizel Cuthill (b. 12 Mar 1783)- to Margaret Butchart
(no name recorded) Cotthill (b. 24 Jun 1785)- to Margaret Butchard
Now there are also these, which I'm not sure are the same Robert Cothill (they are also in Kinnell). If you look at the dates, they either precede children of Mary White or fall after those of Margaret Butchart; I did find a marriage for Robert Cothill and Margaret Butchart, but not for Mary White
COTHILL MARGARET (14 Feb 1767) ROB. COTHILL/JEAN BRUICE; don't find a marriage for these names
COTHILL ELISABETH (11 Dec 1790) ROBT. COTHILL/ISOBEL BAILLIE; marriage date for parents is 10 Dec 1790. This could be Robert & Mary's son, Robert (b. 1772) since he'd be 18 at this time.
Would love your thoughts and input on this!
Jen
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The spelling of the names have been inconsistent, from Cuthill to Cothill to Coathill (in 1 record) and Cuthills (in 1 other). However, I still was unable to find Jean on Scotland's People, despite using these various combinations.
It's always useful to use wildcards. When you find a name that has variations, try that. In your case c*t*l should produce the goods. And Butchart has many variations too.
BTW who were the parents of Mary Wyllie who married George?
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Forfarian, I think Mary's parents were Elspet Cothill and James Wyllie
Jen, did you get my emails with photos attached?
Jay
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Ah, thanks, just wondered if she could have been one of my Wyllies.
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thanks for the wildcard hint. didn't know that, it'll be really useful!
Mary Wyllie's parents were James Wyllie and Elspet/Elspeth Cuthill. But can't find Mary's birth record or baptism yet, or Elspeth's either. I got Mary's parents' names from the marriage record, and also did find her death record (1896), which had the same names. Looks like the death record has a notation that Mary was illegitimate. Elspeth's death record (1863) indicates her parents were Robert Cothill and Margaret Butchart.
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Any idea where Mary Wyllie was born? Does the 1881 or 1891 census say?
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Yes, in Kinnell. Birth year would be about 1811 or so, as per census records and death record. Death record has her dying in Forfar at Gate Lodge (Cemetery) Newmonthill in 1896.
But I also have a death record for another Mary Wyllie that I downloaded in error; that Mary also died in Forfar in 1881 at the age of 53; she was married to Thomas Wyllie, her parents were Alexander & Marjory Berrie.
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She seems to be in every census from 1851 onwards, in Forfar, but I couldn't find her in 1841.
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The spelling of the names have been inconsistent, from Cuthill to Cothill to Coathill Cuthills
It's always useful to use wildcards. When you find a name that has variations, try that. In your case c*t*l should produce the goods. And Butchart has many variations too.
To add to Forfarians suggestion...
It may be an idea to try the 'Fuzzy matching' option too as it brings up all sorts especially transcription errors or if the name Cathill/Cothill has dropped the 't' Cahill.
An e.g. of a 'Flora' with 'Fuzzy matching'....FLKORA ::)
Annie
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Forfarian... I do have her in the 1841 census.
Name:
Ilspeth Colder
Age:
59
Estimated birth year:
abt 1782
Gender:
Female
Where born:
Angus, Scotland
Civil Parish:
Forfar
County:
Angus
Address:
Spout Street
Parish Number:
288
Household Members:
James Hendry 58
John Calder 65
Ilspeth Colder 59
Mary Colder 29
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Jen, sorry, our ancient computer gave up completely, so couldn't reply sooner. I haven't yet found any links from my Inverkeilor Cuthills to Kinkell. Best wishes.
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I do have her in the 1841 census.
Name:
Ilspeth Colder
With spelling like that, I am not surprised that I failed to find her!
Spout Street, by the way, is the former name of what is now the part of Castle Street north of its junction with Queen Street.
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forarian--I know! it was shear luck I happened upon it. I think I eventually searched under the husband, whose last name is indexed correctly and that's how I found them :)
Merry Christmans! ;D
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Breaky,
there may still be a connection yet. My Jean Cuthill married James Patterson; their daughter Jean Patterson married David Forbes. Their child George Forbes married Ann Anderson. They were in Kirkden/Froickheim with their children. Don't have the exact years handy. But Ann (Anderson) Forbes, if I remember, died in Inverkeilor. So...it's conceivable that others in the family also wound up there as well. Now I'm wondering about the siblings of Jean etc...
Merry Christmas!
Jen
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Hello,
In trying to find Thomas Patterson born 1800, Kinnell, I quite by chance found these posts. I had found conflicting marriage records for his parents James Paterson and Jean Cothill, 26 Nov 1796 Carmyllie and 12 Dec 1796 Kinnell. As I thought maybe somehow the places were connected, I googled them
and found the post. Very exciting for me as Thomas's daughter Helen (Ellen) Nicholson Patterson was my GG paternal grandmother, for whom I am named.
I am still absorbing all the information, but it would be great to connect and I would be happy to share what information I have on Ellen and her family. She and her husband Robert Baxter immigrated to the US early 1880s.
Ellen
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Hi Ellen...I replied to your PM message as well :). This is the correct family and looks like we're distant cousins! Have quite a bit on this line but not so much on Thomas Patterson's children so would appreciate any information you have!
Best,
Jennifer
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Hello Ladies - I too have Paterson/Patterson and Anderson heritage form this area of Scotland. If you have any of the the following i would be happy to exchange for information.
It is said that John Paterson married Margaret Thomson who begat Grisill Patterson christened 27.11.1698 at Tulliallan. She married George Davidson in 1725 at Tulliallan. They had a son John Davidson who married Janet Archibald in 1771 Tulliallan. Their daughter Christian Davidson married James Wallace in 1790 Kettins. their daughter Jean/Jane Wallace christened 1796 Kettins married Andrew Anderson in 1818.
Cheers
Jack Gee
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Hi Jack,
Wow! You've been able to get quite far back in your tree! I'm impressed and a bit jealous! My earliest Patterson/Paterson is James Paterson b. approximately 1767. I'm uncertain of his place of birth. some people have him born in Latheron, Caithness, Scotland to Alexander Paterson & Elizabeth Sutherland although I've not been able to confirm that. My James Paterson married Jean Cothill/Cuthill on 12 Dec 1796 in Kinnell,Angus/Forfarshire.
I too have a Andrew Anderson, but he was born in Marykirk Kincardineshire in 1769 to James Anderson & Helen Piper. He married twice, to Anne Millar and then to Anne Reid.
Think our lines may cross at some point but not apparent yet!
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Hi Jen5525,
i would like to CONFIRM my previous thread so i put all of that heritage line out there. " it is said" by a couple of 'family' sources. Occassionally we get lucky and tap into other parallel family lines. Best of luck in your Genie journey.
This stems from my YOOLOW tree that goes back to Robert Yoolow born circa 1610. This starts my strong family connection to the area around Kettins. Two other of my family names Anderson of Dundee and Patullo of St Madoes are also in 'the mix'.
Cheers
Jack
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Hi Jack...Yes, still lots to confirm in my tree as well! I'll let you know if I come across anything that matches your tree :)
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Hi Jack,
Sorry for tardy reply, I was away traveling. So as you have gathered Jen and I have GG(+?) grandparents who were siblings. Like Jen, I have been trying to verify who their father, James Paterson's parents were, nothing definitive yet. I too have Andersons from Dundee, paternal GG grandfather David Anderson b 1833, parents Thomas Anderson and Isabella Raitt, siblings Thomas, Smith and Victoria. David married Jessie Laird and immigrated to the US in late 1860s. Their daughter Jessie married John Paterson Baxter, son of Robert Baxter and Helen Paterson. Robert's father, George Baxter b 1797 parents were George Baxter and Mary Thomson, from Markinch Fife. They were married in 1795. There is also a Barbara Thomson married to James Baxter 1770, a Robert Thomson married Agnes Baxter 1737, Anne Thomson to Alexander Baxter 1761, all Markinch All records listed on Scotlands People. Haven't had a chance to research yet. I too have Davidsons on my maternal side, but from Dungannon, County Tyrone, Ireland, originally from Scotland but no idea where or when.
Best,
Ellen
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"In trying to find Thomas Patterson born 1800, Kinnell, I had found conflicting marriage records for his parents James Paterson and Jean Cothill, 26 Nov 1796 Carmyllie and 12 Dec 1796 Kinnell"
This would seem to be the same couple although both from different parishes?
Do you have the original docs. from scotlandspeople.gov.uk which should help?
The 1st (whichever one) will be 6 credits although the 2nd will (or should be) free?
Annie
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Thanks Ladies,
happy to chat if anything looks like a discussion point. Just drop me a PM.
Cheers
Jack Gee
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I had found conflicting marriage records for his parents James Paterson and Jean Cothill, 26 Nov 1796 Carmyllie and 12 Dec 1796 Kinnell.
No conflict there at all.
What it tells you is that at the time of the marriage they lived in different parishes. The banns therefore had to be called in both parishes, so this generated two records in the parish registers, one in each parish.