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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Orkney => Topic started by: Patsy Beech on Sunday 08 November 09 05:06 GMT (UK)
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Hi Folk,
I am trying to research a branch of my family who came from Orkney, and on the 1851 census they were living at Louttits Pier, Stromness. Robert Brass, possibly born in Sandwick, had married Catherine Louttit on the 9th November 1826. The children I have found on the IGI are as follows:-
17th October 1826 Margaret, baptised 3rd December 1826
17th October 1827 Margaret
30th November 1828 Catherine, baptised 21st December 1828
30th November 1829 Catherine
There seems something strange about the above entries is there any way of checking for mistakes in transcription?
11th August 1831 Tomima [Tommia] Robertson
20th August 1834 Jessie
13th October 1836 Robert
4th September 1842 James
30th November 1847 Jane
The family moved to Tyneside between 1851 & 1861 and the youngest daughter Jane married John George Douthwaite on 6th March 1876 in Queen Street Chapel, South Shields and on her wedding certificate it gives her name as Jane Amm [Ann?] Hourstain [Hourston?] Brass - the bits in brackets are my guess work!!!!!
Now also on the IGI I have found a Peter Loutit marrying a Jean Hourston, but I cannot find them having a daughter named Catharine which would have fitted my theory as to why Jane had a middle name Hourstain. I would really like to take the doubt and guess work out of the family tree and any suggestions of how to do so would be greatly appreciated.
Also has anyone any idea where Louttits Pier might have been?
Happy Searching,
Patsy
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Hi!
on 1851 census at louttits pier, stromness:
robert brass 51 sailor born sandwick
catharine brass 48 born sandwick
margaret seamstress 24 b stromness
catharine servant 22 b stromness
tomima 19 servant b stromness
janet 16 scholar b stromness
robert 14 scholar b stromness
james 8 scholar b stromness
jane 3 b stromness
on 1821 census at upper voy, sandwick
thomas louttit 41 farmer
william 21
catharine 19
margaret 17
robert 12 at school
jannet 9 at school
there is no mother mentioned on this census
also on 1821 census at quoys, sandwick;
mary 54 widow nee brown
marion 25 strawplaiter
jannet 24 strawplaiter
mary 23 strawplaiter
catherine 22 strawplaiter
betty 16 strawplaiter
on 1871 census at new quoys sandwick:
catharine louttit head aged 70 unmarried stocking knitter born sandwick
akc
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Hi akc,
Thank you very much for the information especially the records going back to 1821. I did not know there was a census that far back so I have learned something new today.
I think this next bit of information could either muddy the waters even further, but with fingers crossed it just might confirm which Louttit family Catherine came from!
As I said previously the Brass family moved to the North East of England by the time of the 1861 census, and Catherine [nee Louttit] can be found living with her daughter Jessie [by now Mrs. Lockyer] & son James Brass.
RG9/3786 Folio 13, page 14,
1 Lower Thames Street, Westoe, South Shields, District 3.
Catherine gives her place of birth as Stromness, Orkney Isles unlike the Scottish 1851 census which gives her place of birth as Sandwick, and by 1861 she is widow, but I don't know where or when Robert had died.
Also on the 1861 census for Hartlepool there are more of her family.
RG9/3700 Folio 81, page 3 Olive Street, Hartlepool, District 13e
Francis Walter - head - married - 46 - master mariner - Scotland
Jessie Walter - wife - married - 46 - Scotland
Margaret Rosswell [Rosewell] - sister-in-law - married - 48 - seamstress - Scotland
Jane H. Brass - niece - single - 13 - Scholar - Scotland
From the BMD Margaret Loutitt married Mark Rosewell during the quarter ending March 1853, Stockton 10a 108 so I think that the Jessie Walter & Margaret Rosewell would have been Catherine's younger sisters. The Jane H [Hourston] Brass is the one who grew up to marry John George Douthwaite and started this search in the first place!
Unfortunately when I look at the census returns in sequence the ages do not progress in neat 10 year gaps so I am not putting much faith in their accuracy! However if Margaret was aged 48 in 1861 it would give an approximate DOB of c1813 whereas the Margaret on the 1821 census taken at Sandwick would give a birth date c1803. The more I look at the information the more confussed I am getting!!!!!!
Are there any old maps of the Orkney Isle which might show where Louttit's Pier was once located?
Thank you once again for your help it really is appreciated.
Best Wishes, Patsy
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From the 1770s, whaling fleets bound for the Davis Strait began to hire crew in Stromness - the young Orcadian men sought for their skills in handling small boats. The connection between Stromness and the whaling industry continued well into the 1900s.
By now Stromness parish had a population of almost 3,000 people and 385 dwelling houses. The main street was rough, muddy and narrow. Measuring only 12 feet at its widest point, the street shrank to as little as four feet in places. But to a town that relied so heavily on the sea this narrow road was not really a problem.
By this time many stone piers jutted out from the western shore of Hamnavoe and most of the larger houses along the west side of the street had their own pier and boat.
As you can read from this excert,,,some of the houses had thier own pier,,,so maybe louttits pier was simply the pier attached the house where he lived,,,??
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There is an old ordance survey map available ( the godfrey edition orkney sheet 108.03 which I have) of Kirkwall and Stromness from 1902 which doesnt name the houses but as gortonboy says Stromness is a long town on the the waterfront and a lot of houses do have their own pier ( I did find another Brass family in Louttits House so that may be where the pier was). The main street of Stromness is still basically the same layout as it was back then ( and still 2 way driving believe it or not). I have a relative who lives in Stromness so will see what I can find out
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Dear gortonboy & akc,
Thank you for your continued help with the Brass and Louttits families. The description of Stromness back in time and now is very helpful and interesting. I was also interested in your comment about another Brass family in Louttits House - do you have a date for that information please?
I have had a look on Scotland's people today and found the Brass family on the 1841 census (all except for Robert whom I suspect may have been at sea) living at North End which I am guessing is near the main street.
1841 030/00012/00009
Catherine Brass - 35 - Straw Platter - Yes
Margaret Brass - 12 - Straw Platter - Yes
Catherine Brass - 10 - Straw Platter - Yes
Tomima Brass - 8 - Yes
Janet Brass - 6 - Yes
Robert Brass - 4 - Yes
Today I have sent for a copy of the marriage certificate between Margaret Loutitt & Mark Rosewell in Stockton 1853, and have my fingers crossed that might shed some light on who Margaret's father was, and therefore that also would be Catharine's dad. There appear to be many different ways of spelling the name Louttit - Loutitt - Loutit - Lowtit etc. but I am guessing they all originate from the same family - am I right?
By the way do you know what the platted straw was used for? It must have been a very important part of life on the Isles because so many people were occupied in that way.
I was in Scotland last year looking at the Orkney Isles from the Castle of Mey and thinking how rough the stretch of water was over to the isles, but I now wish I had taken the ferry despite being a terrible sailor!!!!!!
Thank you once again for all your time and trouble.
Best Wishes,
Patsy
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Hi again, on the 1851 census at Louttits House were:
margaret brass head married 38 dressmaker husband at sea
mary 17 daughter unmarried dressmaker
peter son 15 carpenters apprentice
james 13 son scholar
margaret 6 daughter
john 4 son
anne 1 daughter
all were born in stromness
I think a lot of the spelling depended on the individual who was registering the birth
the straw was used for different things i.e tying down straw and hay stacks and roofs, also for furniture
The sea crossing is not too bad if you come across in the summer there is a crossing that takes 45 mins, june is the best time, it is light all day and most of the night
akc
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on cursiter.com there is a robert brass born 1/8/1799 sandwick, parents are andrew brass and margray mourick( this could be marjory marwick)
found another 2 with the same parents: margaret brass b 3/1/1796 sandwick also andrew brass b 19/8/1797
akc
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found this monumental inscription: in stromness kirkyard a: here lies the remains of margaret hourston wife of peter louttit merchant in stromness died 5 august 1788 aged 46, those of janet moar & john louttit son of above peter louttit also merchant in stromness. she died 6 aug 1798 aged 31 ( possible connection?)
akc
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Thank You akc for the new pieces for the jigsaw. They certainly look as though they are going to fit in somewhere as they are all the right names in the right places. I am going to work on the theory that Margaret Brass and Catharine Brass are sisters-in-law both having seamen for husbands, and see where that leads me.
It is interesting that another Peter Louttit married a Margaret Hourston, perhaps the Peter Louttit who married Jean Hourston on 27th November 1800 was their son, and he thought if a Hourston was good enough for dad then it's good enough for me!!!!!!
Our son lives in Helsinki which is just about on the same latitude as the Orkney Isles, and it took us a while to get used to the amount of light during the night on our first summer visit there. In fact we have just returned from a quick trip to Finland a couple of days ago, and we left in a snow blizzard so a bit of a contrast to summer time!
Thank you once again for all your pieces of information, I am keeping them safe as I am sure they are all going to fit together somehow.
Best Wishes,
Patsy
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hi,,dont know if you have ever come across this site,,but in case you havent,and it helps
http://genforum.genealogy.com/louttit/
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Thank You Gortonboy,
I had not come across that website before, and it is sure fascinating. I now know there are over 50 ways to spell Louttit!!!!!!!!! Also the family spread far and wide around the world even having bays in Australia named after them. I really do enjoy this family search and I am always amazed at just how much information is shared.
Best Wishes,
Patsy
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Hi there, I was in stromness today and spoke to the lady in the little bookshop, she was born in stromness, she told me that the site where the new pier arts centre is sited is where louttits quay used to be, it started as louttits quay then was re-named ( I cant remember what she said it was called) and then it turned into the new pier arts centre.
another little book about stromness i found had this; "in the 1820s for example, the well to do lived scattered through the town from peter louttit at the pierhead" etc etc ( which is very close to the arts centre)
if you google stromness and find a map the pier arts centre is marked( it is very popular with tourists and locals )
also in the book: straw work for the women was a product of war conditions. foreign straw could not be obtained by the hat makers to adorn the fashionable ladies in the south. hence british products had to be used. great numbers were needed to split and plait the straw ready for the bonnet makers; in 1827 seven stromness straw manufacturers employed 2 men and 196 women and girls in the burgh and a further 73 in the parish-20% of the female population aged 10 or above.
akc
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Dear akc,
Thank you so much for making enquires about Louttits Pier, and all the information about the straw and the uses it was put to. I had never given much thought to where the straw came from to make hats etc, but it all makes perfect sense now you mention it. I expect that men's straw boaters were also made from it.
My next move is to go to multimap and have a look at Stromness, it really does help to know what to look for.
Thank you once again for taking the time and trouble to ask other people also, and please pass on my Thanks to the lady in the bookshop.
Best Wishes,
Patsy
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Hi it's me again folks.
Today the marriage certificate that I sent for arrived and here are the details:-
12th February 1853 at the United Presbyterian Chapel of Hartlepool.
Mark Rosewell & Margaret Loutitt.
Both 43 years of age.
Condition: Widower & Spinster
Mark was a Mariner.
He lived at Throston & she lived at Alfred Street, Hartlepool.
His father was Peter Rosewell - Lighterman
Her father was Henry Loutitt - Farmer
Witnesses were Thomas Malcomson & Jane M. Frazer.
So insted of solving a few mysteries I feel as through I have just driven into a brick wall!!!!!! This means that the father of the three sisters was Henry Loutitt [Louttit]
Catharine born c1803 & married Robert Brass 9th November 1826 - Stromness
Margaret born c1810 & married Mark Roswell 12th February 1853 - Hartlepool
Jessie born c1815 & married Francis Walter no date or place found so far, but she was married before the 1851 census taken in Everard Street, Hartlepool - district 10g (HO107/2384 Folio 445 page 40).
Now on the IGI I have found a marriage between Henry Louttit & Catharine Taylor on 22nd November 1798, Birsay, Orkney, Scotland which could be a possibility, but I cannot find any children for Henry and Catharine at all on either the IGI or Scotland's People. Any suggestions gratefully received, and would Birsay be a farming community?
On the 1841 Scotland Census for Gossegar, South Ronaldsay, St. Mary Ed:2; page 3, Roll CSSCT1841 -4-0452 I have come across a Henry Louttit aged 40 married to a Margaret aged 30. Their children are Catharine aged 10, Elizabeth aged 3, and James aged 5 and wondered if this Henry could be son to Henry Louttit & Catharine Taylor and therefore older brother to the three sisters? Did people move around the islands much trying to find work etc?
I seem to have many pieces for the family puzzle, but I am not at all sure the pieces are all from the same puzzle!!!!!
Thank you for taking the time to plough through this little lot.
Best Wishes & Happy Searching to All.
Patsy
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Just a thought but do you have Catharines death certificate?
Only 2 children I can find born to Henry Louttit and Catharine Taylor ( or Hary Loutit and Katrin Tylar) sometimes the spelling is diabolical! are William b 19 May 1800 and Robert born 16 August 1807 both Sandwick. ( I found these 2 on cursiter.com )
Birsay is very much a farming community, next to Sandwick, and not far from Stromness
akc
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Brilliant suggestion akc. I had not found the death index entry for Catharine Brass [nee Louttit] because I was searching in the English records, but once I tried Scotland's records SUCCESS.
Catharine must have returned home - I can see why - the beauty of the Isles against the dirty industry of Tyneside as it was back then - much cleaner now - no industry!
"Catherine Brass widow of Robert Brass, Sailor, died 15th August 1867 in Stromness. She was 65 years old. Her parents were Henry Louttit - Shoemaker - (deceased) & Catherine Louttit maiden surname Taylor (deceased). She died of pneumonia 16 days, and her death was registered by her daughter Catharine Brass."
Therefore Henry Louttit was a man of many talents farmer and shoemaker. So the three sisters (Catherine, Margaret & Jessie) also had two brothers William & Robert - there must somewhere be a son called Henry named after his dad surely!!!!! I wonder where the information on cursiter.com was found regarding the two boys.
I am now going to try and follow the Henry Louttit and Margaret of South Ronaldsay through the census returns and try and identify this Henry Louttit death certificate to see if I can find his parents.
Thank you ever so much for the suggestion of searching for Catharine's death certificate. It proved to be very useful as it was Scottish not English - (English certificates don't have very much information on them - no parents etc.)
Best Wishes,
Patsy
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This is a brilliant site for south ronaldsay searches: southronaldsay.net
happy hunting
akc
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Found this in Kirkyard A-Stromness:
ILM of Cathrine Taylor wife of Henry Louttit died Aug 11 1811 aged 67 Robert Louttit son of above died May 13 1829 aged 21. The husband and father of the above lies interred in the graveyard of Sandwick Verse' William Louttit died 18 Jan 1881 aged 80.
Does that solve the Robert and William mystery? havent found a young Henry yet though. Unfortunately Sandwick graveyard has not been transcribed as yet, I was there a couple of months ago and it has an awful lot of graves ( a lot with the same names ) so it would probably take ages to find anybody unless you were lucky. It is a beautiful little church though with a lovely glass window.
akc
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Hello again akc,
You are really coming up with some gems for me, thank you so much.
Just looking at you Kirkyard information do you think Catherine Taylor might have been a bit younger? If she was 67 in 1811 her d.o.b would have been somewhere c1744, and if her son Robert was 21 years old in 1829 then his d.o.b would be c1808 that would mean she was 64 years old when Robert was born and 67 when William was born - ouch! Or have I misunderstood?
I have just noticed something else as I was typing this and looking at the 1861 census for Hartlepool (RG9/370 Folio 81 page 3) Jessie Walter [nee Louttit] has a given age of 46 making her d.o.b. c1815 - 4 years after her mum died - a bit difficult. Is it possible we are looking at two different couples with identical names?
The IGI has a Katherine Taylor christened on 29th September 1776 in Birsay with parents William Taylor & Mary Moar, and Henry Louttit & Catherine Taylor married 22nd November 1798 also in Birsay.
You are really making me want to visit the Orkney Isles, mind it does not take much I love Scotland, and I have even converted my Sassenach husband - a couple of Hogmanay celebrations did the trick!
Well back to the searching - this is better than solving logic problems.
Best Wishes,
Patsy
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Hi Folks - just a bit more!
I have checked out the Henry Louttit (farmer) on South Ronaldsay married to Margaret Rosie and they are not connect - well not so far!
This Henry Louttit died 21st June 1874 aged 73, and his parents were Thomas Louttit (farmer) and Catherine Budge.
Just in case anyone else is searching for Louttit families their children were:-
Catherine born 15.10.1829 - baptised 21.10.1829
Barbara born 16.4.1831 - baptised 24.4.1831
Helen born 26.3.1833 - baptised 28.4.1833
James born 24.8.1835 - baptised 6.9.1835
Betsy born 20.2.1838 - baptised 18.3.1838
Thomas born 13.6.1841 - baptised 4.7.1841
Mary born 1.11.1844 - baptised 7.12.1844
William born 17.6.1847 - baptised 7.7.1847
It was the eldest son James who registered the death of his father Henry.
Patsy
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I did wonder when I worked out her age on the inscription, possibly whoever transcribed it read her age wrong? another good excuse for me to go to Stromness again! This ancestor hunting certainly gets you out and about
akc
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Hi again, I found a death for Robert Brass on Scotlands People: Robert Brass married, died 25 November 1860 in Stromness aged 62 yrs mother was Marjorie Marwick and father was Andrew Brass, he died of paralysis and cerebral disease, brother in law William Louttit was witness. It does not give his wifes name or an address.
akc
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First class information again akc.
That fits nicely with the birth for Robert Brass on IGI which gives baptised 1st August 1799 in Sandwick. Parents Androu Brass and Margray Mourick - close enough! You see I always knew my bad spelling would come in useful for something - it helps me to read the information without noticing what order the letters come in or different variations!!!!!
That means when his wife Catharine (nee Louttit) is found on the 1861 census RG9/3786 Folio13, page 14, 1 Lower Thames Street, Westoe, South Shields - District 3 she has only been a widow for a few months, and probably had only been in the north east of England for a short time. She is staying with her youngest daughter Jessie who had married James Lockyer early in 1860, and their first son whom they called Robert (after his granddad no doubt) was only 4 months old so must have been born around the same time as his granddad died. Oh! When the pieces fit isn't it a good feeling?
I have spent a few hours today drawing up the 'Brass Family Tree' so your information about Robert Brass was very well timed. Thank You.
This also confirms that the 3 Louttit sisters Margaret, Jessie & Catharine had a brother called William, no doubt the one who died 18th January 1881 aged 80.
I do hope you enjoy your trip to Stromness, but do pick a day when the weather is fine. I know how strong the winds up there can be. When we were on Dunnet Head last year the wind was playing a tune up the exhaust pipe of the car, and the following day it was calm and glorious sunshine.
Thank you for your continuing help.
Best Wishes,
Patsy
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Hello Patsy
Robert Brass and Catherine Louttit were my great great grandparents. I have the Brass family tree and a shorter Louttit one. Louttit's Pier became Brass's Pier and then Sutherland's Pier. I can let you have the info but would rather send a letter as I'm not very computer literate! How can I do that without posting email addresses?
Best Wishes,
EJA
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Hi
The last message about louttit pier is quite correct, i have been in orkney last week and spoken to many people in stromness, and louttits pier was indeed renamed brass pier and then sutherland pier , i have taken photo's of it and can forward them to anyone that would like one
Regards
Kevin
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Hi - Much of the info you have posted on the Brass and Louttit families links to my data. Margaret Brass (17 Oct 1827 - 14 Aug 1893) marries Peter Garriock in Leith in 1858. I record Catherine Louttit as dying on 15 Aug in 1867 and Robert her husband on 25 Nov 1860 in Stromness.
I note - 1) Margaret (the eldest dau) marries Peter Garriock.
2) Tomina Robertson Brass marries an ??? Allan
3) Jessie Brass marries James Lockyer (and has 5 kids)
4) Robert Brass marries Jessie Spence (and has 8 kids)
5) James Brass ?????
6) I can now add Jane Houster Brass to JOhn Douthwaite!
My Data is for William Miller Garriock (my great grandfatheron my grandmothers side) and is in the form of a Gedcom file. I will happily send the file to you if you feel it is of use.
It is always exciting to add new data into a set.
Many thanks - Lawrie
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Hi Guys, I thought I would throw my connections into the mix. Robert Brass & Catherine are also my great, great, great grandparents. One of their daughters, Tomima? Tommie? Brass married Robert Allen who is my great, great grandfather. Robert & Tommie moved to Australia in 1891 We know that Robert died in Bendigo. Could have been part of the gold rush.
Their son James Allen was born in the Orkneys, 1879. but died in Masterton, New Zealand in 1933.
Masterton is where my grandmother Thelma (on my mothers side) was born in 1908.
I am an ex-pat Kiwi but now live in Melbourne, Australia.
PW
I would love a copy of the Brass family tree, EJA
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Hi - Much of the info you have posted on the Brass and Louttit families links to my data. Margaret Brass (17 Oct 1827 - 14 Aug 1893) marries Peter Garriock in Leith in 1858. I record Catherine Louttit as dying on 15 Aug in 1867 and Robert her husband on 25 Nov 1860 in Stromness.
I note - 1) Margaret (the eldest dau) marries Peter Garriock.
2) Tomina Robertson Brass marries an ??? Allan
3) Jessie Brass marries James Lockyer (and has 5 kids)
4) Robert Brass marries Jessie Spence (and has 8 kids)
5) James Brass ?????
6) I can now add Jane Houster Brass to JOhn Douthwaite!
My Data is for William Miller Garriock (my great grandfatheron my grandmothers side) and is in the form of a Gedcom file. I will happily send the file to you if you feel it is of use.
It is always exciting to add new data into a set.
Many thanks - Lawrie
Hi Lawrie,
my name is Jessica Lawrence. My grandad is your cousin he is called Iain. I am doing a family tree at school and my grandad spotted this chat. He said you are an expert on the Lawrence family. I wonder if you could give me some information on my family. I am particularly interested in my great uncles who died fighting in the First World War.
Hope you and well
Kind regards Jessica