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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: HarrysGirl2 on Monday 09 November 09 22:36 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I'm new to RootsChat, so I'm bound to make some mistakes, which I apologize now for.
I'm searching for my Gt. Grandfather, his name was Tobias Freedman & he was Jewish. His Hebrew name was Tobia. His son Louis Freedman (my grandfather) first appears in the UK when he married Russian born Rachel Simon in Leeds in 1890, where they had their first son, Gedaliah/Daniel/Dal/David/Dave. Louis's Hebrew name was Yahuda.
I have found a Louis Friedman travelling from Hamburg on 2nd Nov 1889. He gave his residence as Lomza, Russland (Russia) His occupation: Hawker - his age was 23 (Born about 1866) I'm pretty certain that this is my grandfather as his family name has been found as Friedman or Freedman & has now evolved to Freeman.
EDIT:-
This Louis from Lomza has now been eliminated:
I 'thought' I'd found my grandfather on a shipping list in November 1889 from Hamburg - destination Hull. The timing was just right to marry his first wife Rachel in Leeds, in April 1890. This Louis Friedman was from LOMZA. His occupation was given in German as Handler = Dealer/Hawker his age was 23 & there were no other Friedman's on the list. I tried everything to link him to my grandfather ... but nothing.
So, I followed the guy who was next in line, listed after Louis from Lomza on the shipping list. His name was Max Grawecki & he was aged 20 & also from Lomza. Of course, Max could have been simply the next guy in line & nothing to do with Louis, but I searched the UK hoping to find a marriage for Max & perhaps Louis was a witness or perhaps they boarded together, but I found nothing of Max.
This went on for 6 months. Then a friend thru another friend in the US, found that Louis & Max were together... they arrived together in New York just before Christmas 1889, after changing ships in Liverpool :-(
End of Edit
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By 1901 Louis & Rachel are now living in Liverpool & also have the following children, all born in Liverpool: Hyman/Harry born 1893. Nellie/Helen/Lillian born 1894. Samuel born 1896. Elias born 1898. Isaac born 1900. In spring 1904 Rachel Simon died. She was 40.
About 1904/5 Louis marries my grandmother, Russian born, Rebecca Cohen (nee Cohen & formally Cohen) They have 2 more children: Teri born 1905 & my father, Harry, born 1907. On the 1911 census, Rebecca is found at Liverpool's Royal Infirmary & she died just 2 weeks later of cancer. She was 36. Another child (Abraham) has also appeared on the 1911 census & Louis states that Abraham is his son. But, he was born in Russia in 1895 & I assume that he must be Rebecca's son to her 1st husband & so, Louis's stepson. Abraham remains a brick wall on my research, as I have lost track of him after the 1911 census.
My main quest at the moment is to find my Gt. Grandfather Tobias. The only mention of him is on Louis & Rachel's marriage certificate & on the Jewish authorization certificate. Tobias is not stated as being deceased on this M.C in 1890 & his occupation is also a Hawker as is Louis's (own account)
I have not found any Tobias Friedman/Freedman/Freeman in the UK. However, I have found a Tobias Freedman who died in Dublin, Ireland on 29th April 1902. He lived at - 2, Emorville Square, Dublin. He was 72, which puts his birth year as 1830 & he would have been 36 when Louis was born. I have learned that this Tobias Freedman was living at this address on the 1901 census with Faige Freedman (Wife perhaps ?)
I have also found in Dublin:-
Isaac Freedman, born 10/3/1854 in Smeksna, Kovno, Russia. (Date of File 1892)
Isaac lived (Mar 1891-Apr 1892) at: 37, Lombard St West, Dublin.
Isaac's Parents are Tobias & Fege Freedman, both of Russian Nationality Fege is close to Faige & I have not found any other Tobias who could fit.
I would be interested to hear from anybody who has Tobias & Fege/Faige or Isaac in their family tree.
Thank you for reading this message.
Harrysgirl2
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Hello and welocome to Rootschat,
Your Louis's birthplace was consistently reported as being Germany. This would rule out the Louis from Lomza that you have fopund.
Kovno was the most northwestern gubernia of the Russian Empire and part of the Pale of Settlement. It also bordered directly with East Prussia. The city of Kovno is Kaunas in Lithuania.
It is certainly true that most of Ireland's Jewish population came from Lithuania. It can also not be ruled out that Tobias was able to cross the border illegally into East Prussia (did you ever see 'Who Do You Think You Are?' on David Suchet?).
Feiga/Feige was a very common Yiddish girl's forename. It is derived from the Yiddish word for 'bird' (Feygl or Foygl), and is a calque of the Hebrew name Tsipora.
I shall investigate some of the online Jewish records.
Justin
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Hello again,
I'm still looking for my gt grandfather Tobias Friedman - Freedman - Freeman. I've given my grandfather (Louis Friedman's) information in my first post above, but I'm still having no luck tracing his father Tobias. I've not found Tobias anywhere in the UK & I'm drawn back to this Tobias Freedman who died in Dublin in April 1902 aged 72. I have this Tobias Freedman's death certificate & the DC gives his address as being 2, Emorville Square Dublin.
But, confusingly, on the 1901 Dublin census, there is a 'Julius' Freedman aged 65 living at Emorville Square with Faiga Freedman aged 64. They are both boarding with the Masliansky family. Philip Mesliansky was mentioned in Joyce's Ulysses & oddly the names Philip Masliansky & Julius Masliansky are given for the same person in Joyce's book. Ben Masliansky (who was Philip's son Abraham, on the 1901 census) went to the US & changed his name to Maslan & I am in contact with a descendant of his, a Rabbi who lives in Texas.
I don't know if the 1901 Dublin census was mis-transcribed & Julius Freedman is actually Tobias Freedman & the age of 65 is wrong as the Tobias Freedman who died in 1902 was age 72. Or, was this Julius Freedman aged 65 on the 1901 census perhaps Tobias Freedman's brother ?
If anyone has a link to this Freedman family in Dublin I would love to hear from you... preferably before I go insane.
Also, just to confuse you more... there were two more Freedman families living in Lombard Street West around the same time... were they connected to each other & or to Tobias/Julius Freedman? If you know anything about these families, please contact me.
Below are the details of the two families living in Lombard Street West. We feel these two families are linked to each other, but as yet, we can't find the link.
Family Nº 1. are Two Brothers... "Aaron, Marcus" & "Israel, Wolf" & their parents:-
"Aaron, Marcus Freedman" was born in the Russian Empire- Weksna/Meksna, Kovno. 20/5/1872.
(Between March-1901-June 1902) He lived at: 5, Lombard St West (Date of Naturalisation File - June 1902)
Married - 2 children: **Tobias, aged 2 and Flora Gerta aged 6 months (This Toby went to South Africa)
Occupation: Draper
His Brother:- "Israel, Wolf Freedman" was born 19/3/1880. (Date of Nat file. Nov 1902) Single, occupation Draper.
The Parents of these brothers are:- Daniel Freedman and Libe Freedman, both Russian. (No D.O.B. for parents)
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Family Nº 2. We also found Nat Records at Kew for:-
Isaac Freedman, born 10/3/1854 in Smeksna, Kovno, Russia. (Date of Nat File 1892)
Isaac lived (Between Mar 1891-Apr 1892) at: 37, Lombard St West, Dublin (same street & same time as "Aaron, Marcus Freedman" Lived there)
Isaac's Parents are Tobias and Fege Freedman" both of Russian Nationality.
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Is Fege = Faiga ? This is surely the same Tobias & Faiga who lived at Emorville Square... there must be a link... but where ?
If anybody has a link to these families please contact me.
Thank you for reading this message.
HarrysGirl2
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I don't know if the 1901 Dublin census was mis-transcribed
No need for confusion on this point. You can view the original handwritten 1901 Census Returns on the NAI site.
Why do you think your ancestor might be found in Dublin? Are you following a speculative hunch or do you have documentation that links?
Dara.
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I have the original transcript thanks Dara. It's difficult to say if it says Tobias or Julius, it could be either, but printed version says Julius.
I'm working with a guy in Tel Aviv who is a descendant of one of the Freedman families who lived in Lombard Street West & also another guy who lives in Melbourne Aus, who is a descendant of the other family who lived in Lombard Street West. As yet, we've found no connection to either family or to the Tobias /Julius who lived in Emorville Square. But, we all feel strongly that there will be a connection.
My grandfather Louis, is a complete mystery & his father Tobias has not shown up anywhere in the UK, the only Tobias I've found is this Tobias who died in Dublin in 1902. I'm searching for a link & need more info.
Thanks for your help. Do you know anything about these Freedman families Dara ?
HarrysGirl2
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The 1901 census entry looks like Tubia but has been transcribed as Julia.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003807272/
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Thank you,
I think Tubia is another name for Tobias, is it not ?
I noticed the signature of the enumerator at the bottom was Thomas McNally & the "T" in Thomas looks similar to the "J" in Julius. So, I think it is Tubia too.
HarrysGirl2
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H G 2
I have recorded in my source work based upon The Irish Times newspaper that the edition for 12th April 1892 on Page 7 in the Police Court section that a Mr Freeman was a witness in a case. The address was given merely as Lombard Street without a number . It could possibly have been Lombard Street West.
The only details I have for No.2 Emorville Square are that it was held under lease for 900 years and was sold in 1897 for 255 pounds.
Regards Quaxer
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H G 2
I have recorded in my source work based upon The Irish Times newspaper that the edition for 12th April 1892 on Page 7 in the Police Court section that a Mr Freeman was a witness in a case. The address was given merely as Lombard Street without a number . It could possibly have been Lombard Street West.
The only details I have for No.2 Emorville Square are that it was held under lease for 900 years and was sold in 1897 for 255 pounds.
Regards Quaxer
Thanks for this info Quaxer.
Any tiny bit of info all helps to build up a picture & something unexpected could help find the link to these Dublin Freedman families & hopefully to my grandfather Louis.
HarrysGirl2
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May I ask for a look-up for the occupiers of - 2, Emorville Square, Dublin on the 1891 & the 1911 Dublin censuses. Or for a death for this Julius Freedman (IF his name was Julius) who lived at 2, Emorville Square Dublin aged 65 on the 1901 Dublin census.
I need to prove either way if there was a Julius or a Tobias living at this address after or before the 1901 census. IF his name was Julius then I'm wondering if he was a brother to the Tobias Freedman whose DC I have at this same address & who died aged 72 in 1902.
Thank you
HarrysGirl2
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First complete census for Ireland is 1901 - it and 1911 are online (free):
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/
See Introduction to Irish records for how to search death registrations-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442233.0.html
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I had a look in Thom's directory of 1894, and there's no street listing for an Emorville Square - just an Emorville Avenue with 35 houses, none of which have the surname Freedman. It's described as being '... off South Circular Road, near Clanbrassil Street' An Emorville terrace is mentioned in the index as being near the same location, but no further details are given.
There are no Freedman entries in the 1894 trades index.
Thom's 1914 includes a listing for the location as follows :
Emorville square
South Circular Road, near Clanbrassil Street'
1 Mr. Thomas Baker
2 Albert O'Brien
3 Mr. R. Epstein
4 Mr. S.H. Reynolds - contractor
The 1911 census shows the following surnames at the location (see Emorville Sq (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Wood_Quay__part_of_/Emorville_Square/)) :
1 Baker
2 Bridger / O'Brien
3 Epstein
4 Berjin / Reynolds
Shane
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I have a Jacob Freedman living in 6 King Street North listed as a Hardware Merchant in 1881.
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aghadowey & Shane I would like to thank you both for your help. It's my first search into Ireland so I'm not sure what's available. Thank you.
On the 1901 census, it lists:-
Phinchas Maslisnsky Head aged 26 male Drapers Pedlar married Russia
Florrie Maslisnsky Wife aged 24 Housekeeper married Russia
Sarah Maslisnsky daughter aged 1 Female Born Dublin City
Abraham Maslisnsky son aged 2 months Male Born Dublin City
Julius (or Tobias) Freedman aged 65 boarder married
Faiga Freedman aged 64 boarder married
I'm not having much look finding this freedman family before or after this 1901 census. But, I've learnt that 2 month old Abraham Maslisnsky went to the USA when he grew up & changed his name to Ben Maslan. I've found one of his descendants who is a Rabbi in Texas. I don't know if this Freedman family were related to the Maslisky family or just boarding with them, my contact, the Rabbi in Texas is making enquiries with the older members of his family.
Thank you for this info, I'll try to find Julius & Faiga's deaths.
HarrysGirl2
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I have a Jacob Freedman living in 6 King Street North listed as a Hardware Merchant in 1881.
Hi Ambyrne,
Do you mean this Jacob Freedman is part of your tree ? If so, could there be any link to this Freedman family ? I'm researching Tobias Freedman & trying to find a link to what looks like Julius/Julia Freedman (Male) aged 65 & Faiga Freedman (Female) aged 64 on the 1901, boarding with the Maslisnsky family at 2, Emorville Square, Dublin.
I'm also researching this Freedman family:-
Family Nº 1, are 2 brothers:
Aaron Marcus Freedman: born 20/5/1872. Date of file Jun 1902.
Between Oct 1896-Mar 1901 he lived at: 102 Lower Clanbrassil St Between March-1901-June 1902 he lived at: 5 Lombard St West. Born Russian Empire- Weksna/Meksna, Kovno
Parents: Daniel and Libe Freedman, both Russian.
Married - 2 children: Tobias, 2 and Flora Gerta 6 mths
Occupation: Draper
Family Nº 2. We also found Nat Records at Kew for:-
Isaac Freedman, born 10/3/1854 in Smeksna, Kovno, Russia. (Date of Nat File 1892)
Isaac lived (Between Mar 1891-Apr 1892) at: 37, Lombard St West, Dublin (same street & same time as "Aaron, Marcus Freedman" Lived there)
Isaac's Parents are "Tobias and FEGE Freedman" both of Russian Nationality.
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A descendant of family Nº 1 lives in Melbourne & a descendant of Nº 2 lives in Tel Aviv. The Tobias aged 2 years went to South Africa & one of his descendants became Mayor of Johannesburg.
We feel strongly that all these Freedman's are linked & we are researching all of these Freedman's & would be interested in exchanging info with anyone connected to these families.
HarrysGirl2
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No Sorry... maybe it was a little misleading the way i phased the sentence... No i just found Jacob on the Slaters directory.. Sorry for getting your hopes up...
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No Sorry... maybe it was a little misleading the way i phased the sentence... No i just found Jacob on the Slaters directory.. Sorry for getting your hopes up...
Ahhh, that's OK. Thanks for your help. I've checked thru the 1901 & 1911 & BMD's, but can't find any Julius/Julia Freedman. If I could find his death, it would prove he was a different person to the Tobias who died in 1902 & it wasn't a mistake. I can't find Faiga's death either. Maybe they left Ireland.
Thanks for your help
HarrysGirl2
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Harry,
"off South Circular Road, near Clanbrassil Street' An Emorville terrace" This area is right beside the old Jewish Synagouge in Dublin, it is actually the Jewish Musuem now i think. It is a couple of minutes walk... It looks like most of the Jewish people got buried in
BALLYBOUGH JEWISH CEMETERY
Caretaker - tel. +353 1 836 9756
You could try these or contact the Jewish Rabbi's themselves who might be able to help.
Check out this URL http://www.jewishireland.org/contact.html
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Harry,
"off South Circular Road, near Clanbrassil Street' An Emorville terrace" This area is right beside the old Jewish Synagouge in Dublin, it is actually the Jewish Musuem now i think. It is a couple of minutes walk... It looks like most of the Jewish people got buried in
BALLYBOUGH JEWISH CEMETERY
Caretaker - tel. +353 1 836 9756
You could try these or contact the Jewish Rabbi's themselves who might be able to help.
Check out this URL http://www.jewishireland.org/contact.html
Thanks for all this info, I'm sure I should get some results from this.
HarrysGirl2
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Regarding Jewish ancestry in Ireland, the person to contact is Stuart Rosenblatt on (*)
He has carried out a lot of research in this area. He is your expert.
Julia
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Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
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Sorry Moderator, I should have known better. I will contact Stuart and let you know how I get on.
Julia
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Regarding Jewish ancestry in Ireland, the person to contact is Stuart Rosenblatt on (*)
He has carried out a lot of research in this area. He is your expert.
Julia
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy, to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
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Hi Julia,
Thank you. Yes, I have exchanged information with Stuart last year & I keep in touch with him. I have sent a blanket email out to every researcher on J/Gen & I've had over 350 replies so far.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I have some good leads.
Thanks for your help
HarrysGirl2
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Not sure if this helps but it may allow you to eliminate
in 1901 there is a:
Freedman Lewis; Winding Harbour; Athboy; Meath; age 25; M; born Russia; Dealer; Jew; Cant read or write; Boarder; Single
He is boarding with a family called Barrett
He is still listed in 1911 name then Luis and occupation Pedlar
You may not be aware that on the Irish census site you can tick the box for religion without any name and get a full listing - for Jew there are 3618 entries. You can then see the spread of people but more importantly sort into surname or forename order that can help find mis-spelling
As many could not read or write, or had a language problem the forms are only as good as the enumerator
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Not sure if this helps but it may allow you to eliminate
in 1901 there is a:
Freedman Lewis; Winding Harbour; Athboy; Meath; age 25; M; born Russia; Dealer; Jew; Cant read or write; Boarder; Single
He is boarding with a family called Barrett
He is still listed in 1911 name then Luis and occupation Pedlar
You may not be aware that on the Irish census site you can tick the box for religion without any name and get a full listing - for Jew there are 3618 entries. You can then see the spread of people but more importantly sort into surname or forename order that can help find mis-spelling
As many could not read or write, or had a language problem the forms are only as good as the enumerator
No I didn't know this, thank you that help s so much. If the census was not taken at the same time as the English census, then I would have been excited by your Lewis/Lois finding. But, I have found my grandfather Louis, on the 1891 in Leeds, & teh1901 i & 1911 in Liverpool.
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Actually I was thinking the Meath Lewis/Luis might have been the Louis Friedman you had found travelling from Hamburg on 2nd Nov 1889. As his occupation: Hawker and you could eliminate him
Best of luck
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I contacted Stuart and got the following reply from him.
Julia
"I just looked into the Rootchat.com site and could not find the Jewish enquiry. If you come across it again please let me know. If I can be of help to you please let me know.
"Modesty" permits me to say if you Goggle my name it comes up with come interesting articles."
Moderator's Comment: Details of person removed. Please use PM (personal message) to give out email adresses and other contact details.
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Actually I was thinking the Meath Lewis/Luis might have been the Louis Friedman you had found travelling from Hamburg on 2nd Nov 1889. As his occupation: Hawker and you could eliminate him
Best of luck
Ah... I see. I should update that original post, because I've already needed to eliminate the Louis on a shipping list. (Sorry)
He was travelling in November 1889 from Hamburg - destination Hull. The timing was just right to marry his first wife Rachel in Leeds, in April 1890. I as so excited finding this Louis Friedman, who was from LOMZA. His occupation was given in German as Handler = Dealer/Hawker his age was 23 & there were no other Friedman's on the list. I tried everything to link him to my grandfather, but nothing.
So, I followed the guy who was next in line, listed after Louis from Lomza on the list. His name was Max Grawecki & he was aged 20 & also from Lomza. Of course he could have been simply the next guy in line & nothing to do with Louis, but I searched the UK hoping to find a marriage for Max & perhaps Louis was a witness or perhaps they boarded together, but I found nothing of Max. This went on for 6 months.
Then recently, a friend thru another friend in the US, found that Louis & Max were together... they arrived together in New York just before Christmas 1889, after changing ships in Liverpool :-(
So, I'm back to square one with my grandfather's place of origin. Sorry, it's a while since I did that original post & I should have re-read it & updated it.
HG2
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I contacted Stuart and got the following reply from him.
Julia
"I just looked into the Rootchat.com site and could not find the Jewish enquiry. If you come across it again please let me know. If I can be of help to you please let me know.
"Modesty" permits me to say if you Goggle my name it comes up with come interesting articles."
Hi, thanks for this. I am already in contact with Stuart & he has recommended me to join Shalom-Ireland.
HG2
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I recently sent out a message to all the researches on the JewishGen website to everyone searching the name Freedman & all its variations. This is a section of that email, which will update the info I have on the Dublin Freedman families I am interested in:-
Extracted from the email I've sent:-
I found a Tobias FREEDMAN who died in Dublin, Ireland on - 29th April 1902 aged 72 years, so born about 1830. Occupation: Traveller. The address on his death certificate gives his address as - 2, Emorville Square, Dublin. The Dublin 1901 census throws some confusion into this information, as the census for this address gives a Julius or Julia (Male) living at this address. Both from Russia. The handwriting is hard to decipher and could be mis-transcribed as the name looks like Tobias or Tubia, but the age on the census is 65 - not 72. This Julius or Tobias, is living with 64 year-old Faiga Freedman, they are married and living as boarders with the
MASLINSKY family at 2, Emorville Square. I have not found Faiga or Julius FREEDMAN on the 1911 census and I have not found their deaths - only the death of Tobias in 1902.
Also, in Dublin are 2 more FREEDMAN families, who I feel could be connected to each other and also to Faiga and Tobias/Julius FREEDMAN of Emorville Square.
Family Nº 1. are two Brothers... Aaron, Marcus FREEDMAN & Israel, Wolf FREEDMAN & their parents:- Aaron, Marcus FREEDMAN was born in - Weksna/Meksna, KOVNO. 20th May 1872. Aaron, Marcus address from March 1901 to June 1902 was: 5, Lombard St West (Date of Naturalisation File - June 1902) Married to wife Ada FREEDMAN info off 1901 census - 2 children:
Tobias FREEDMAN aged 2 (on 1901 census) Flora, Gerta FREEDMAN aged 6 mths
This 2 year-old Tobias/Toby FREEDMAN went to South Africa.
I am in contact and researching with a descendant of this family.
Occupation of Aaron, Marcus FREEDMAN: Draper
Aaron, Marcus's Brother:- Israel, Wolf FREEDMAN was born 19th March 1880. (Date of Nat file. Nov 1902)
Israel is Not Married at this time. Occupation: Draper. The Parents of these 2 brothers are:- Daniel FREEDMAN and Libe FREEDMAN,
both Russian.
Family Nº 2. Info from Nat Records:-
Isaac FREEDMAN, born 10th March 1854 in Smeksna, KOVNO, Russia. (Date of Nat File 1892) Isaac address (From Mar 1891 to Apr 1892) at: 37, Lombard St West, Dublin (same street & same time as "Aaron, Marcus FREEDMAN" Lived there)
Isaac's Parents are - Tobias and Fege FREEDMAN - both of Russian Nationality.
I am also in contact and researching with a descendant of family Nº 2.
Isaac Freedman's eldest son Maurice Freedman/Freeman became the mayor of Johannesburg in 1934/5.
We feel strongly that there will be a link with family Nº 1 & family Nº 2 & also to the Tobias/Julius & Faiga FREEDMAN who lived at 2, Emorville Square, which was very close to Lombard Street, in Dublin.
I am hoping that Tobias & Faiga FREEDMAN are the parents of family Nº2 (Fege & Tobias FREEDMAN)
I am also hoping that this Tobias FREEDMAN who died in 1902, is the father of my grandfather.
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I hope that makes more sense than my first message.
HG2
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Hello -
If you haven't already done so, I would recommend that you contact Stuart Rosenblatt via http://www.jgsgb.org.uk/snire.shtml.
craggagh
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Hello -
If you haven't already done so, I would recommend that you contact Stuart Rosenblatt via http://www.jgsgb.org.uk/snire.shtml.
craggagh
Hi yes, I've been in contact with Stuart for about a year now, thanks craggagh.
HG2
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Hi everyone,
It's been a while since I posted & a lot has happened, so I wanted to update this thread & thank everyone for their input.
I've since found proof that the Tobias Freedman who died in Dublin in 1902 was my great grandfather & the Isaac Freedman who lived in Lombard Street West & who went to South Africa in 1892 & whose son became mayor of Johannesburg in 1934, was my grandfather's elder brother. I've also found other siblings to my grandfather in Dublin.
What knitted all these bits of information together was that my grandfather Louis Freedman/Friedman/Freeman, who lived in Liverpool & never naturalised,
(many didn't because of cost) was therefore classed as a friendly alien & although he was not interned, as were enemy aliens, he needed to carry an identity card & sign an alien register at the local police station at wherever he visited.
On the 28th June 1917 my grandfather signed the alien register at Dublin police station, this is the first time any link to Dublin has shown for my grandfather & it gave information taken from his identity card, demolishing his claim of being a Germany national, as stated on all UK censuses. The information on his alien entry, says he was from Sweksna, Kovno Russia... the same place Isaac Freedman who went to South Africa was from!
Isaac Freedman DID naturalise, just a few months before he went to South Africa & his parents were Tobias & FEGE Freedman. The Tobias & Faiga Freedman who lived in Emorville Square on the 1901 census will be their parents. The name Fege/Faiga is the same. There is a grave for FEIGE FREEMAN at Dolphin's Barn cemetery (no stone) who was buried on 7th July 1927, but her death listing cannot be found, the GRO have traced 10 years either side of that date to no avail. Tobias Freedman's grave is also at Dolphin's Barn (no stone) I need to find Faiga/Fege/Feige Freedman/Freeman on the 1911 census & her death listing. It might be that she had another name or was in a hospital & unnamed.
I've found another brother - Ralf aka Philip Freedman/Freeman married Sarah Levy in Dublin in 1880, they are on the 1901 & 1911 Dublin census. They had 9 children, but only 3 daughters survived to marry & I need to trace the following descendants as I have 100 year-old documents that need to be given to this family. It is my guess that Philip Freeman died sometime around end of June 1917, he had previously been in Donnybrook Hospital for two years but signed himself out because this daughter was very ill. This might be the reason why my grandfather was visiting Dublin with his wife & five of his younger children on 28th June 1917. A dangerous time to take young children over the Irish sea... maybe he went to see his brother before he died or his funeral. I have not found the death listing for Philip aka Ralf/Ralph or Raphael Friedman/Freedman/Freeman. Jewish people had an assortment of names & are difficult to research.
Philip & Sarah Freeman's 3 x daughters married...
Maria/Marie Freeman married Harry Russell in Dublin. Maria is shown on the 1901 as Minnie & on the 1911 Dublin census as Maria, living with her parents with 5 year-old daughter Winnie, born in Belfast. They married at Dublin register office, so it might be that Harry Russell was not Jewish & maybe they then lived in Belfast for a while. I cannot find the birth listing for their daughter Winnie.
Ellen/Eleanor or Nellie Freeman married Abraham Harris (Jewish) who was a Jeweller. They were on the 1911 census living next door to Nellie's parents with daughters, 5 year-old Simona (named after Abraham Harris' father - Simon Harris) & 2 year-old Esther. Abraham Harris was aka Albert Harris & probably had a jeweller's shop in Dublin circa 1900-1911. By 1917, it might be that Abraham & Nellie Harris had moved to Orpington in Kent.
Eva/Evelyn Freeman married Charles Berg in Liverpool in 1914. Charles Berg, who was a Jewish cabinet maker, was on the 1911 Dublin census staying with Eva & her parents. They had two children in Liverpool, before moving to Manchester where they had two more children & then disappeared.
I have not named the children from this marriage incase some are still living, but they had two boys & two girls, the last was born in Manchester in 1929.
I have also found a sister to my grandfather - Esther-Baila Freedman married Maurice Abramson in Dublin in 1887. I've found no children to this marriage & I've not found Esther & Maurice Abramson on any Dublin census, but found 'Morris Abrahamson' on the 1939/40 electoral rolls living at 2, Walworth Road with a Myer Abrahamson & Rebecca & Herman ERLICH & a Bertha Erlich registered Morris Abrahamson's death in 1944. No death had been found for Esther Abrahamson. Rebecca/Bertha Erlich was aka Baila Erlich & Baila ran a kosher butcher's shop in Dublin for many years & was known in the community for her good works. Sadly, my trail run dry again.
The good news is that I have a publisher interested in my book & has assigned an editor to work me to 'polish it up' ready to publish!
I would love to tie up some lose ends to finish the book.
Thanks to everyone for their help...
HG2
PS OK I'll give more details as Tara suggested below, but will do so on another post as this one exceeds the letter qty.
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Harrysgirl,
I have been following your search with interest. You have discovered so much. What great news that you have a publisher interested in your book. It will be a remarkable story. May I wish you every success with the outstanding searches.
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Well done you for persevering and achieving!
Best of luck with the book
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Thank you both... I'll keep you posted of any progress of the research & the book!
HG2
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Hi 'HG2'
Can I just make a suggestion ?
In your message there is a LOT of info and questions weaved into your fab finds. My suggestion is maybe to bullet point briefly the outstanding info that you are still looking for !
Tara
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Ok, thanks Tara, will have a go ;-)
HG2
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.....
Ellen/Eleanor or Nellie Freeman married Abraham Harris (Jewish) who was a Jeweller. .....Abraham Harris was aka Albert Harris & probably had a jeweller's shop in Dublin circa 1900-1911.
....
possible link ?
Thom's 1910, trades section 'Jewellers, Silversmiths & Watchmakers'
Morris Harris, 30 Nassau street
Shane
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Might this be Abraham Harris in 1901 - the writing on the actual census is tricky to work out !
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Royal_Exchange/Grafton_Street/1309121/
Tara
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I am nearly certain that Morris Harris and his family were part of a libel case that involved Samuel Beckett in the 1930s that was a great stir at the time
I'll see if I can find anything on it but if I am remembering correctly Beckett was related to the family in some way
did quick search of "morris harris" online and got several hits
Rootsweb posting (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/BRITISH-JEWRY/2003-11/1068940413)
Biography reference to Gogarty (http://www.s9.com/Biography/Gogarty-Oliver-St-John)
The Life of Samuel Beckett (http://books.google.ie/books?id=IQhIo2s2wd8C&pg=PA277&lpg=PA277&dq=%22morris+harris%22+beckett&source=bl&ots=df7KuYSs8N&sig=zw-mwL5Vbj6y4JF4fFAXZbgX-QM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=74XoT6PPOsO1hAfphNTRCQ&ved=0CFAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22morris%20harris%22%20beckett&f=false)
if he is related there is probably another book in it!!
Morris Harris daughter married John Sinclair who was CoI
William Abraham Sinclair and Henry Morris Sinclair were his twin grandsons and brought up as Jews
Wiliam Sinclair in 1911 Census (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Howth/Howth_Hill/20410/)
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Might this be Abraham Harris in 1901 - the writing on the actual census is tricky to work out !
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Royal_Exchange/Grafton_Street/1309121/
Tara
PO, was going to edit my big post above but it exceeds the letter qty...
EDIT:
Tara has suggested that I highlight my remaining brick walls... so here goes...
1). I am looking for the death listing of my great grandmother. I have found her grave at Dolphin's Barn cemetery in Dublin, she was buried on 7th July 1927 under the name FEIGE FREEMAN, nothing more in the cemetery records, but the GRO cannot find her death under any of the variations I've found her named... FAIGA/FEIGE/FEGE FRIEDMAN/FREEDMAN/FREEMAN. I have not found her on the 1911 Irish or UK censuses either. She must have died in Ireland to be buried in Dublin within 1-2 days of death as is Jewish custom & if she remarried, surely she would have been buried under her new married name. She was 64 year of age on the 1901 census, so she would be about 90 when she died in 1927!
2. I cannot find the death of my grandfather's brother who was known as PHILIP FREEMAN on 1901 & 1911 Dublin census. Again, his name has also been found as Ralf/Ralph/Raphael Friedman/Freedman/Freeman. I have found that Philip never naturalised & he spent two years at Donnybrook Hospital from 1915 until he discharged himself at end of May 1917 as his daughter was very ill. I have a feeling that Philip Freeman died about the same time as my grandfather Louis Freeman visited Dublin on 28th June 1917. It is highly likely that this was Louis' reason to take his young family to Dublin. I have never found the death of Philip's wife Sarah Freeman either & have no idea when she died, but I do know it was after 1917 as she wrote a letter to Donnybrook Hospital regarding her husband in May 1917 & the address on the letter was Nº1 Green Street, Green, Orpington Kent. This may have been the address of one of her daughter's, possibly Nellie who I give more details about below. So the death's of Philip & Sarah Freeman remain brick walls.
3). Philip & Sarah Freeman had 9 children but only three daughters survived to marry & I need to trace the following three families...
4). Maria/Marie/Minnie nee Freeman married Harry Russell in Dublin's RO, possibly indicating that Harry Russell was perhaps not Jewish. On the 1911 Dublin census Maria Russell was listed with her parents & she had a 5 year-old daughter Winnie, who was born in Belfast, indicating that they lived in Belfast for a time. I need to trace this Russell family forward.
5). Ellen/Eleanor aka Nellie married Abraham Harris a Jewish Jeweller, they were living next door to Nellie's parents on the 1911 Dublin census with 5 year old daughter Simona & 2 year-old Esther. They possibly had a Jeweller's shop in Dublin circa 1900-1911 but might have moved to the Orpington address where Sarah wrote her letter from in 1917. Abraham Harris was aka Albert J Harris. I need to trace this Harris family forward.
6). Eva/Evelyn Freeman married Charles Berg a Jewish Cabinet Maker who is also listed as living with Eva & her parents on the Dublin 1911 census. They married in Liverpool in 1914 & had two children before they then moved to Manchester where they had two more children the last one born in 1929, then disappeared. I need to trace this Berg family forward.
EDIT:
7). My grandfather's sister Esther-Baila nee Freeman married Maurice Abramson in 1887 in Dublin & has not been found since! There is a possible connection to the Erlish family as I have found a Morris Abrahamson, with Myer Abrahamson & Rebecca & Herman Erlich at 2, Walworth Rd on the 1939/40 ERs Morris died in Dublin in 1944 & his death was registered by Bertha Erlich. Rebecca/Bertha & Baila Erlich are the same person & Baila, as she was known ran a Kosher Butcher's shop in Dublin for many years. I need to find what happened to Esther-Baila Abramson/Abrahamson after she married in 1887, I've so far found no children tot his marriage.
I hope this make a little more sense - it is complicated, my brick walls are bigger than China's! But one step as a time gets us there eventually, whether them steps are forward backwards or sideways!
Thanks everyone...
HG2
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Might this be Abraham Harris in 1901 - the writing on the actual census is tricky to work out !
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Royal_Exchange/Grafton_Street/1309121/
Tara
Ohhh It could well be Tara! He's listed as Abraham Harry instead of Abraham Harris! They did not marry until 1903 & married in Belfast.
Abraham Harris was born in South Wales, this guy says he was born in England, so still could be him! His occupation on the original image is Jewellers Assistant, his father was a watchmaker & Abraham was much older than Nellie! Well done!
HG2
PS. The 1911 census has his age as 34, so it might still be him, they were then living at house 39.2, South Circular Road.
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Up to now, I've found there were three different HARRIS families in Dublin at the same time, where they had any link to each other is not yet certain, but I am hoping so.
HG2
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I am nearly certain that Morris Harris and his family were part of a libel case that involved Samuel Beckett in the 1930s that was a great stir at the time
I'll see if I can find anything on it but if I am remembering correctly Beckett was related to the family in some way
did quick search of "morris harris" online and got several hits
Rootsweb posting (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/BRITISH-JEWRY/2003-11/1068940413)
Biography reference to Gogarty (http://www.s9.com/Biography/Gogarty-Oliver-St-John)
The Life of Samuel Beckett (http://books.google.ie/books?id=IQhIo2s2wd8C&pg=PA277&lpg=PA277&dq=%22morris+harris%22+beckett&source=bl&ots=df7KuYSs8N&sig=zw-mwL5Vbj6y4JF4fFAXZbgX-QM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=74XoT6PPOsO1hAfphNTRCQ&ved=0CFAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22morris%20harris%22%20beckett&f=false)
if he is related there is probably another book in it!!
Morris Harris daughter married John Sinclair who was CoI
William Abraham Sinclair and Henry Morris Sinclair were his twin grandsons and brought up as Jews
Wiliam Sinclair in 1911 Census (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Howth/Howth_Hill/20410/)
He had a few brothers but none named Morris, altho they could have been cousins & the Jewish community were very close.
HG2
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With Maurice Abrahamson - do you have an occupation for him, sometimes with people who changed the spelling of their names, it is easier to try and find them on census' by occupation.
Tara
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With Maurice Abrahamson - do you have an occupation for him, sometimes with people who changed the spelling of their names, it is easier to try and find them on census' by occupation.
Tara
I forgot to add the Abramson family to my brick wall summary - will do now.
Maurice was a pedlar when they married in 1887, but on his DC in 1944 he was a Tailor. He died as Morris Abrahamson.
HG2
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For the Harris family on the 1881 Cardiff census, the names of Abraham's siblings were...
Sara,
Solomon,
Emanuel,
Rebecca,
Harry/Henry?,
Rachel,
Abraham (was then 5 yrs, so born about 1875/6-ish)
David
I know that Abraham's father - Simon Harris - was a pillar of the Jewish community in South Wales & later moved to Newcastle were he died in 1902, hence their daughter was named Simona in memory of Abraham's father. We think Abraham's mother, Maria Harris nee Bloom then went to live in Ireland, probably Dublin, so we feel that Abraham did have some siblings in Dublin.
HG2
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I know this is not a match for Maurice Abramson but I was just wondering have you ben looking outside of Dublin.
I was helping someone with Jewish roots before and some of the families seemed to have alternated between Dublin and Cork !
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Cork_Urban_No__5/Elizabeth_Terrace__part_/1114079/
Tara
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I know this is not a match for Maurice Abramson but I was just wondering have you ben looking outside of Dublin.
I was helping someone with Jewish roots before and some of the families seemed to have alternated between Dublin and Cork !
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Cork_Urban_No__5/Elizabeth_Terrace__part_/1114079/
Tara
I'll look at any possibility Tara, I've learnt to think outside the box with my Jewish side & nothing surprises me now!
I can't see any link to Maurice on that family tho.
HG2
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Might this be Abraham Harris in 1901 - the writing on the actual census is tricky to work out !
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Royal_Exchange/Grafton_Street/1309121/
Tara
Hi again,
I've been away for a few weeks & don't think I replied to this post.
YES!!!! I think you've four him on the 1901 census... brilliant!!
Thank you.
Now all I need is to find him coming forward. I've began a new thread hoping to ring some bells for a Family Of Jewellers named HARRIS...
Please ignore that thread, I just thought it might jog somebody's memories, but I have no idea if this family had a jeweller's shop under their family name of HARRIS.
HG2
see : Dublin Family of Jewellers named HARRIS (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,606586.msg4560744.html#msg4560744)
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Have you gone through all the Harris' on the 1939 Dublin Electoral Roll - some of the names or address' may ring bells with you !
Tara
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To be honest, I'll check the ERs again, because I know I've looked at Freeman/Abrahamson/Russell & all the name variations on the ERs, but I don't think I did the Harris name ! Thanks you, I've been researching for years, but sometimes you forget the obvious!
Thanks ;-)
HG2
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We feel strongly that all these Freedman's are linked & we are researching all of these Freedman's & would be interested in exchanging info with anyone connected to these families.
HarrysGirl2
[/quote]
Its some time since your post but you may be interested in some Freedman entiries here on Aliens Register.
http://www.familyhistory.ie/docs/aliens/Page%2023.jpg
annclare
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I believe we are related. My great grandfather was Maurice Abramson who married Esther Friedman (Fridman/Freedman) in 1887 in Dublin. The marriage certificate states she signed with an "x" which may explain the variation of the surname spelling. The address on their marriage certificate is 57 Lombard Street West. Tobias was her father. Louis Abramson is shown on the certificate Maurice's father. However, Louis was Maurice's brother. Their father was Julius Abramson from Lithuania. The family moved shortly thereafter to Glasgow where Sam was born June 13, 1889 at 6 Oxford Lane, and then to Leeds where Lillie was born as well as my grandmother Betsy on August 13, 1894 at 96 Byron Street. Maurice is listed on her birth certificate as a tailor presser. The family moved to Boston, MA in 1896. Sometime after the marriage and for reasons I have been unable to determine, Julius, Maurice and Esther changed their surname to Cohen as Sam is listed on his birth certificate as Cohen as well as parents Maurice and Esther. Other Abramsons retained their name and also emigrated to the U.S. Tobias died in Glasgow in 1902. As an interesting literary side note, James Joyce's novel Ulysses mentions 57 Lombard Street West in which a Jewish family resides. In May 2018 I visited 57 Lombard as well as the synagogue where the marriage took place. Both buildings are intact.
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Hi, thank you so much for this very interesting information. I have done much more research since I last posted to RootsChat.
If you would like to send me a private message from this website we can share more details.
Kind regards
HG2
I believe we are related. My great grandfather was Maurice Abramson who married Esther Friedman (Fridman/Freedman) in 1887 in Dublin. The marriage certificate states she signed with an "x" which may explain the variation of the surname spelling. The address on their marriage certificate is 57 Lombard Street West. Tobias was her father. Louis Abramson is shown on the certificate Maurice's father. However, Louis was Maurice's brother. Their father was Julius Abramson from Lithuania. The family moved shortly thereafter to Glasgow where Sam was born June 13, 1889 at 6 Oxford Lane, and then to Leeds where Lillie was born as well as my grandmother Betsy on August 13, 1894 at 96 Byron Street. Maurice is listed on her birth certificate as a tailor presser. The family moved to Boston, MA in 1896. Sometime after the marriage and for reasons I have been unable to determine, Julius, Maurice and Esther changed their surname to Cohen as Sam is listed on his birth certificate as Cohen as well as parents Maurice and Esther. Other Abramsons retained their name and also emigrated to the U.S. Tobias died in Glasgow in 1902. As an interesting literary side note, James Joyce's novel Ulysses mentions 57 Lombard Street West in which a Jewish family resides. In May 2018 I visited 57 Lombard as well as the synagogue where the marriage took place. Both buildings are intact.
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I hope this post is still active and that someone responds.
I too am looking for Tobias Friedman. The search keeps leading me back here.
My great grandfather, Joseph Friedman was from Rayton, South Africa. I have been searching for anything on him, parents or siblings. I finally found a death certificate for Abraham Izaac Friedman, died 9/11/47.
He was 50 yrs and 3 months at the time of death, unmarried and no children, but it does list parents and siblings with a sibling Joseph with an address of Rayton. Bingo! I’m getting somewhere, hopefully.
Parents were listed as deceased. Tobias and Temach Friedman. Siblings were Joseph; Lena Hurwitz (presumed deceased) born in Keidan, Lithuania; Anna Friedman (presumed dead) born in Kovno, Lithuania and Woolf Friedman living in Durban, South Africa. I was able to find the gravestone of Woolf.
Hoping to hear from somebody, anybody! I have all information of Josephs children to now, but nothing beyond him. Any help is appreciated.
Thank you
Michelle
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Hi Michelle
My great grandfather was Tobias Friedman/Freedman who died in Dublin in 1902. He was from Sveksna, Kovno, Russia - now Lithuania.
Tobias was married to Faiga/Fege/ (maiden name unknown). Tobias & Faiga are listed on the 1901 Irish census living at Emorville Square, Dublin. Tobias' name has been mis-transcribed as 'Julia Freedman' on the 1901 transcript.
The only other Tobias Freedman I'm aware of was born in Dublin 23/09/1899. His parents were Aaron Freedman & Ida née Bloom. This family lived at Clanbrassil Street, South Circular Road, Dublin. Interestingly, this family did go to South Africa.
While there's no obvious link so far, I am curious that you're researching the Freedman name in South Africa, so maybe we should exchange more details, because... Tobias & Faiga's eldest son, Isaac-Jacob Freedman, who was my grandfather's elder brother, went to South Africa with his wife Dorah & their nine children. Their eldest son, Maurice/Morris Freedman/Freeman, became the Mayor of Johannesburg in 1934. I am in touch with descendants from this branch.
I am also in touch with descendants of the Tobias Freedman born in Dublin in 1899 who went to South Africa. It has long been suspected - but as yet unproved - that this Freedman branch is connected to my Freedman branch.
Michelle, have you listed the names you're interested in researching on JewishGen.com?
Would you like to exchange email addresses to share further research?
If so, please send me a private message via this website.
Thank you for contacting me,
Regards
Monica in UK
(HarrysGirl2)
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BTW the transcript of the 1901 Census has been corrected.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Wood_Quay/Emorville_Square/1346786/
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BTW the transcript of the 1901 Census has been corrected.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Wood_Quay/Emorville_Square/1346786/
Oh, that's good news! Thank you so much, Sinann. :)
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I must be dumb today, I cannot find how to message you. I added you as a buddy, but that’s all I could find. I definitely want to chat more. Please can you message me, then I can respond to that with my details. :)
Michelle
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New members must have 2 or 3 posts before they can use the PM (Personal Message) system- it's explained in the HELP pages (link at top of page). Try again now that you've 2 posts ;)
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I must be dumb today, I cannot find how to message you. I added you as a buddy, but that’s all I could find. I definitely want to chat more. Please can you message me, then I can respond to that with my details. :)
Michelle
Welcome to RootsChat :)
As Aghadowey said, see:
https://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
KG
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New members must have 2 or 3 posts before they can use the PM (Personal Message) system- it's explained in the HELP pages (link at top of page). Try again now that you've 2 posts ;)
Ah, yes. I forgot about that. Thanks Aghadowey.
I assume that a new member won't receive a PM for the same reason - so you might not get my PM, Michelle. Don't worry, I'll wait for your message.
HarrysGirl2
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Ah ok. Yes I did receive the message and then was able to respond. 😀
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because you have now made the minimum posts Michelle. Harry please remember that new members are restricted and also unfamilier with how to use the website with only post.
Regards
Sarah
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We are corresponding via email, thank you, Sarah.
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Michelle:
Greetings from your cousin in California. HG2 will fill you in.
Dolphins Barn