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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Devon => England => Devon Lookup Requests => Topic started by: woo7173 on Tuesday 10 November 09 20:49 GMT (UK)
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HI all,1st post!
seeking information please on James Doel born 1830 Plymouth? no information shown on freebmd or family search for this.Only know this from a later census when he was living in Frome Somerset with his family.He was my greatgrandmothers father and hope to find a link to the battle of Trafalgar down this family line.
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do you have 1851 census - he is with his grndmother and 1861 he is with wife and 2 children??
Suz
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Hi,sorry do not have that census,was his wife emma? and a son james and daughter maria?
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1851 Frome Somerset
Quarry Cottage
karen Dole head W 58 hertfordshire N.K.
James Dole Grandson U 21 Labourer Quarryman Devon Devonport
Henry Halsom Lodger W 56 Frome Somerset
William Halson Lodger 10 servant frome Somerset
Ann Baker granddaughter in law U 16 Dressmaker ow Middlese
HO107 1932 564 17
1861
Butts
frome Somerset
james Doel head M 31 Labourer Iron Foundry Plymouth devon
Emma wife 24 Balcomb Somerset
Maria daughter 3 Frome Somerset
Elizabeth daughter 2 Frome Somerset
RG9 1654 71 10
Suz
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Thankyou very much,will try to go back from this .
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I must apologise - I never welcomed you to the site
so
a big Hello and welcome to RootsChat
This looks like the famiy in 1871
Willington Row Portsea hants
James Doel Head m 34 Dkyd lab Exeter wks Plymouth
Emma wife 30 Wanstrow Somerset
Maria daughter 14 scholat Froom Somerset (Frome)
Elizabeth daughter 12 scholar Froom (Frome)
James son 10 Froom (frome)
RG10 1129 105 20
by1901 James had died and Emma was back in Frome
1891
2 Butts hill
Frome Somerset
Emma Doel Head W 52 Laundress Wanstrow Somerset
Lilly granddaughter 11 scholar frome Somerset
EG12 1907 23 5
1901
22 Mint?
Frome Somersey
Thomas G Watkins head W 63 painter Gateshead Berks
Emma Doel Lodger W 62 Batcombe Somerset
RG13 2308 10 12
Mattiage reg freeMD
Mar qtr 1857
Frome
on same page
Emma Cosh
James Doel
5c 863
(purchase of certificate would give father's names and occupations)
Death reg freeBMD
Emma Doel
age 77
mar qtr 1915
Frome
5c 694
I have a possible sighting of james Doel's gran in other census
thought maybe going forwards would help to go back???
but it doesn't seem to be doing??
Suz
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He may well have been a Baptist in which case tracking his family down prior to 1841 census is going to be a hard slog.
As a pointer .. if my theory is correct they were existent in Frome Somerset as well as Westbury Wiltshire which towns were only about 5 miles apart.
The name 'Doel' exists at Dilton near Westbury Wilstshire and the name appears in the Baptist 'Providence' chapel there and suggest you try this link;
http://www.dilton-marsh.org.uk/research/default.php
and on the 'search' page type in DOEL where you will find researchers of that name.
A William Doel wrote 'Twenty Golden Candlesticks' (google it) which relates to a history of nonconformity in western Wiltshire and you may be able to obtain a copy.
Sorry for the length of all this ...... it stems from a long and difficult search for Dilton ancestors that I had no idea were Baptists and the fact that Baptists as a rule do not baptise their children until the children are ready to understand why they are being baptised and in my case the baptism of my 2nd gg/m Ann Adlam has never been found ... perhaps she was never baptised but from all available censuses she was born circa 1811.
Hope it helps.
joboy
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Thanks ,filled in a few dates and names to go on with.Not found any link to Westbury Doels,there are a lot of them!hoping to find a link down the Doel tree (plymouth) to a sailor in the battle of Trafalgar,i have a medal with a name etched on it(William Moits?)its badly pitted and hard to see,tried similar sounding last names in the national archives lists for sailors in the battle but no luck yet!hoping this might be family related.
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I wondered if tis is James Doel's grandmother in 1871
(1851 Ann Baker described as "Granddaughter in law" was with karen Doel (head of house)-and James)
1871
Marlborough Row
Portsea
George baker head M 58 Boiler Maker & Beerhouse keeper Bridgwater Somerset
Ann Baker wife 44 Nunney Somerset
Albert Stickler stepson 1 Parish of St Thomas? Somerset
KERRENHAPPUCH DOLE mother W 77 Ind paxton?
RG10 1133 53 6
Suz
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I think that we who are trying to help are going to need some more information to be of use.
You show his birth 1830 as 'Plymouth?'
This might well be correct but not necessarily the home of his parents who may well have been visiting there (from Frome perhaps?) or perhaps his father may have been 'ex Frome' and a military man (Marine or Sailor) stationed there and married there.
On the other hand he may well have been the 1st born in his family in which case,as was commonplace, he may have been born in his mother's parish (Plymouth?) and his subsequent siblings in Frome or thereabouts.
The significance of the battle of Trafalgar at this stage of your quest may be a dead end as the medal may well have been found or acquired from a shop or similar as a 'curio' and for the time being perhaps it should be placed on the backburner.
There was a Trafalgar 'Commemoration medal' and a Trafalgar 'Campaign medal' and you could identify which one you have by 'googling' and let us know.
The 1851 census will give place of birth and there is living at Frome;
Karen Dole widow 58 'Keeper of quarry' born Herfordshire and her grandson James Dole 21 born Devonport (half a mile from Plymouth) a quarryman which is a good bet for your James born Plymouth 1830.
Going back to 1841 census (where no precise birthplace or birthdate is shown) we have living at Westbury workhouse;
Elizabeth Doel 60 aglab 'not born in county' and James Doel 12 aglab 'born in county' which might indicate that his parents had died and he was with his grandmother.
I cant help but thoroughly concur with suzard's input.
joboy
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Further to my last post there was a sailor aboard HMS Orion named William Motts at Trafalgar and this may be the William Moits which shows on the medallion.
HMS Orion was broken up in Plymouth in 1814 just 9 years after Trafalgar perhaps this medallion referred to him.
We used to have a rootschatter called 'tradelin' who posted this a few years ago;
Can anyone do a look up in Kew for me? I have a William MOTT aged 26 yrs. "of Essex" an Able Seaman on board the HMS 'ORION' in the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805.
His Paybook number was 5B 433, The Cat number is ADM 37/18
unfortunately tradelin made his last post in February 2006
Just a thought.
joboy
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I think that we who are trying to help are going to need some more information to be of use.
You show his birth 1830 as 'Plymouth?'
This might well be correct but not necessarily the home of his parents who may well have been visiting there (from Frome perhaps?) or perhaps his father may have been 'ex Frome' and a military man (Marine or Sailor) stationed there and married there.
On the other hand he may well have been the 1st born in his family in which case,as was commonplace, he may have been born in his mother's parish (Plymouth?) and his subsequent siblings in Frome or thereabouts.
The significance of the battle of Trafalgar at this stage of your quest may be a dead end as the medal may well have been found or acquired from a shop or similar as a 'curio' and for the time being perhaps it should be placed on the backburner.
There was a Trafalgar 'Commemoration medal' and a Trafalgar 'Campaign medal' and you could identify which one you have by 'googling' and let us know.
The 1851 census will give place of birth and there is living at Frome;
Karen Dole widow 58 'Keeper of quarry' born Herfordshire and her grandson James Dole 21 born Devonport (half a mile from Plymouth) a quarryman which is a good bet for your James born Plymouth 1830.
Going back to 1841 census (where no precise birthplace or birthdate is shown) we have living at Westbury workhouse;
Elizabeth Doel 60 aglab 'not born in county' and James Doel 12 aglab 'born in county' which might indicate that his parents had died and he was with his grandmother.
I cant help but thoroughly concur with suzard's input.
joboy
Hi joboy,
I had already given the information from the 1851 census - there is a "granddaughter in law" who is Ann baker - which is why I thought it Kerrenhappuch may be a possibility for james Grandmother . Possibly George baker had been previously married and Ann was from that marriage???
I think the purchase of james Doel's marriage cert is essential
Suz
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I think the 1841 census where there is a james Doel in the Workhouse, Westbury with Elizabeth is maybe a red herring .
There are 2 james Doels of a similar age in Westbury in 1841 - both accounted for in 1851 - one is a private in 13th regiment of infantry in Winchester - and the other is in prison in Devizes
Suz
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Getting very intense!many thanks for the lookups!i have found the death of KarenHappuch in freebmd aged 78 in Dec 1872 in Frome! so SUZ you are spot on and this must be his grandmother.
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Hi joboy,
I had already given the information from the 1851 census - there is a "granddaughter in law" who is Ann baker - which is why I thought it Kerrenhappuch may be a possibility for james Grandmother . Possibly George baker had been previously married and Ann was from that marriage???
I think the purchase of james Doel's marriage cert is essential
Suz
Just got to agree Suz ......... it makes good sense and now time to start buying certificates for sure.
Well done,
joboy
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I have also found a irth of William Mott in Essex
Of course another possibility is that james was illegit - and guessing even further William Mott was his father
I wish a "satifactory" james could be found in 1841
and the gran is missing from 1841/61
Suz
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will take the medal to a specialist to examine the engraved name(more i look the more motts is not right seems moi?s),will send for james marriage certificate to show father also.
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Thanks ,filled in a few dates and names to go on with.Not found any link to Westbury Doels,there are a lot of them!hoping to find a link down the Doel tree (plymouth) to a sailor in the battle of Trafalgar,i have a medal with a name etched on it(William Moits?)its badly pitted and hard to see,tried similar sounding last names in the national archives lists for sailors in the battle but no luck yet!hoping this might be family related.
You can if you wish take a photo (all angles especially the etched name) and post it to rootschatters photograph lot ........ it's amazing what they can do.
joboy
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Would be interested to hear details of marriage cert!!
Suz
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Yes Suz ......... it's time to buy certificates.
Another interesting and curious record that might reveal something is just who was Albert Stickler who was 1 year old in 1871?
The only Albert Stickler birth between 1868 and 1872 was at St George Hanover Square London in Sept Qtr 1870 which is 'right on' for the 1871 entry.
joboy
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Searching the 1871 census shows that Albert Stickler is sill in St George Hanover Sq with his parents Hezikiah Stickler born Castle Combe Wilts aged 35 and his wife Ellen born Wooton Undercliffe GLS aged 33 no other family members.
This requires a relook at;
..................................................................
1871
Marlborough Row
Portsea
George baker head M 58 Boiler Maker & Beerhouse keeper Bridgwater Somerset
Ann Baker wife 44 Nunney Somerset
Albert Stickler stepson 1 Parish of St Thomas? Somerset
KERRENHAPPUCH DOLE mother W 77 Ind paxton?
.......................................................................................
to see if Albert's surname is other than stated in the census.
joboy
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Searching the 1871 census shows that Albert Stickler is sill in St George Hanover Sq with his parents Hezikiah Stickler born Castle Combe Wilts aged 35 and his wife Ellen born Wooton Undercliffe GLS aged 33 no other family members.
This requires a relook at;
..................................................................
1871
Marlborough Row
Portsea
George baker head M 58 Boiler Maker & Beerhouse keeper Bridgwater Somerset
Ann Baker wife 44 Nunney Somerset
Albert Stickler stepson 1 Parish of St Thomas? Somerset
KERRENHAPPUCH DOLE mother W 77 Ind paxton?
.......................................................................................
to see if Albert's surname is other than stated in the census.
joboy
This looks like the family in 1861
21 York Place
Portsea hants
George Baker head M 47 Boiler maker bridgwater Smerset
Cathrine wife 46 Houseley Suffok
mary A daughter 18 Milliner Woolwich kent
Catherine daughter 15 Woolwich kent
George son 11 portsea hants
RG9 637 89 26
In 1851 George's wife was still catherine
but in 1881 George's wife was jane
Gloucester St portsea hants
George baker head m 68 Boiler maker Somerset
Jane wife 53 Someret
Clara Stickland step daughter 13 Frome
helen Hooper nurse child 4 Salisury Wilts
Robert Brown oarder u 21 Seaman IOW Ryde
RG11 1148 68 41
So - could Albert be a Stickland not a Stickler???
Suz
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I'll drink to that Suz ......... you just beat me to it as I was about to post the 1881.
I looked for a birth entry for Albert Strickler and variants 1868 +- 2 with no luck then looked at magnification of Albert in 1871 and think it looks much more like 'Frome' than St Thomas ... then looked for just 1st name 'Albert' births in Frome and the only one that 'rings my bell' is Baker Albert Bridgwater 5c 455 March qtr 1869 who would be my choice for best candidate.
Is there a 'cover up' somewhere?
Joe
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then again
1871
Butts frome Somerset
mary Porsch (transcribed as -not at all sure that is correct?) hed W 35 Housework and laundry Nunney Somerset
George Porsch? Uncle 70 Formerley farmer Chiltern Wilts
Frank Porsch Son 15 masons lab Frome
Mary A Ring Lodger U 20 cloth urler Frome
John Hisn ? Lodger u 17 masons lab Frome
CLARA STICKLER neice 3 scholar frome
RG10 2432 33 18
then there is this birth reg
Clara Sticklen
Jun qtr 1867
Frome
5c 363
Suz
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I'll drink to that Suz ......... you just beat me to it as I was about to post the 1881.
I looked for a birth entry for Albert Strickler and variants 1868 +- 2 with no luck then looked at magnification of Albert in 1871 and think it looks much more like 'Frome' than St Thomas ... then looked for just 1st name 'Albert' births in Frome and the only one that 'rings my bell' is Baker Albert Bridgwater 5c 455 March qtr 1869 who would be my choice for best candidate.
Is there a 'cover up' somewhere?
Joe
seems like it - with grandchild in law -and stepsons - it's keeping us interested though???
I may be on wrong track altogether - but I feel if we can sort this baker family - find the connection with theDoel family we will have made a great stride
Suz
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looked for marriages of George Baker Portsea and found these;
Marriages Sep 1877 (>99%)
Baker George Portsea 2b 810
Newnham Jane Portsea 2b 810
PRESTON Edward Portsea 2b 810
WELLS Eliza Jane Portsea 2b 810
So it could be either Eliza Jane or Jane .. I'll back Jane.
Now to look for death of George's former Ann.
joboy
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I have discovered Ann was Ann Newport
Marriage freeBMD
Jun qtr 1849
Frome
on same page
Ann newport
William Stricklen
10 651
her sister was Mary Newport who married a Portch
Suz
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Not much luck with Ann's death at Portsea;
5 entries icluding 2 infants and others were;
Baker Ann 69 Portsea Island 2b 352 1870
BAKER Ann Maria 39 Portsea 2b 283 1874
Baker Ann 27 Portsea 2b296 1876
but the ages dont fit .. oh well
joboy
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I have discovered Ann was Ann Newport
Marriage freeBMD
Jun qtr 1849
Frome
on same page
Ann newport
William Stricklen
10 651
her sister was Mary Newport who married a Portch
Suz
That find fits well with your reply no 23.
Moving along now,
joboy
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Hi All
Can I just add as a decendant of the Horningsham Doel's & a former Doel before marriage that yes it would seem the the furthest back we can be traced is to Wiltshire & the early ones were non-conformist.
Still trying to link the Westbury, Horningsham & Maiden Bradley Doel's. Furthest we've gone is 1728.
All fun & games ;)
Suzanne
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Hello All,
Ive just come in on this now - so apologies if Im covering whats already been said.
I am the Local Studies Librarian in Plymouth Central Library and around 8 months ago I had an enquiry from a chap regarding James DOEL who was a "famous" local actor in Plymouth. Amongst our collections I found a number of resources giving information about him.
We scanned a portrait of him as part of our "Theatre History" project for Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/plymouththeatrehistory/970579507/
James Doel died in August 1902 in Plymouth and was noted as being England's oldest actor. He was buried in Plymouth Cemetery, known as Ford Park Cemetery:
http://www.ford-park-cemetery.org/
Free BMD records that James Medland DOEL died at Plymouth in the September Quarter of 1902, aged 98. His death was registered in the East Stonehouse registration district. (This is now part of Plymouth).
This may not of course be the same guy - but as an off chance...
Graham
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Hi Graham
He's one of my family. I was contacted too & gave out the obituary details I had from a family member.
Thank you. I'll look at the link.
Regards Suzanne
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many thanks for the last few posts, was told about a Somerset standard clipping about him visiting Frome many years ago.My great grandmothers father shares the name, born in Plymouth the same as shown in previous posts luv to find out the link.
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Coming in really late here, but hope this may help:
Stoke Damerel (Devonport) baptisms show:
17 Apr 1831 James Treleaven DOLE son of RIchard & Hannah, father a butcher of Devonport.
Richard DOEL married Hannah TRELEAVEN 5 Mar 1830 at Plymouth St Andrew.
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just to add to my last note, my uncle has comfirmed the clip from the Somerset Standard was found when clearing his grandmothers (Maria Wood (nee Doel) house after she died in 1949. She must have had some link to this actor who shared her fathers name and place of birth.
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Hi
James Doel b1837 Plymouth was the son of James Medly Doel b1804 in Maiden Bradley.
James snr was the actor & James jnr died in 1851 & they had another child who also died (Wiilliam b1840 d1841) & finally James William Robert Doel b1843 d1927. This James was a batchelor. There is no obvious connection to Maria. Though Maria is a family name.
James Medley Doel was one of 4 children & son of Richard Doel b1782 Maiden Bradley. I'm decended from Richard's brother James.
Please contact me & I'll look into your James. He's not on my tree & could be a missing link!
Regards Suzanne
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Hi all, received this week the marriage certificate of James Doel to Emma Cosh.
It shows there marriage in the parish church(St Johns) Frome. Living in Hamble,Southampton at the time (1857) It shows his fathers name as Richard (profession labourer)and he was alive at this time.It also shows James was a widower,checked on free bmd and it shows a James Doel married in Portsea in 1852 Does this make things any clearer?
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Hi
Did you ever get to the bottom of your search? I have lots more information that I have found including a letter from my Grandad's cousin, Pam, that mentions that James Doel was part of the family. I have linked all the connections & yes, we are related ;D
Suzanne.