RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cheshire => Topic started by: shelley007 on Friday 11 March 05 05:45 GMT (UK)
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Seeking info for Annie Walker, married to ??? Blain.
They lived in Norley, Cheshire. 1917. Would like to contact any
relations. Annie was the sister of Frank Walker b 1889 Cheshire. Frank left England and settled in Canada. Their parents names may have been John and Helen. They were apparently farmers.
Annie was listed as next of kin on Frank's Canadian Expeditionary
Force Papers. Any help is greatly appreciated.
The family does not know where in Cheshire that any of the family were born.
Please help Frank's daughters find their family!
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Hi Shelley,
Welcome to Rootschat.
I've been trying to find Frank on the 1891 census- there are only three possibles....but none have parents with the names you suggested.Do you have an exact date of birth for Frank.Is Annie older or younger than him.Were there any other kids? Or could he be Francis?
An awful lot of Cheshire folk were farmers it is a very green county ;D
so it may be difficult to pinpoint them by profession.
Are there any other christian names that run through the family?
I'm sure one of us can find them- we just might need a small clue ;D
Bye for now
Carol
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Hi Carol
Thanks for the reply. We have been searching for Frank for a very many years. The info I have has been taken from his 1918 Attestation Papers and his marriage cert.
His birthdate is supposedly April 15 1889 Cheshire.
He was Protestant, He was a groom by trade.
His sister, Mrs. Annie Blain lived in Norley nr Warrington in 1918
His marriage cert. states his parents names as John and Helen.
His daughters have one picture...the names on it are Robert and
Harry. His childrens names are Margaret , Irene Marion b 1924, Earl & Martha Elaine.
When his daughter Margaret applied for a Passport, She would have been approx 65, her birth cert. came back with the middle name of Davis. She had no prior knowledge that she even had a
middle name and does not know the reason for it.
Irene tells me that Frank's Grandmothers name was Charlotte Walker and that her father wanted to call her "Maude"
I decided to try to find relations on the Blain side, as this seems
the only road to follow. I looked up Norley, Cheshire and found it just down the road from Kingsley. My sister used to live at Blake Lees Farm, Kingsley and my youngest daughter spent her first Christmas at Blake Lees. Divine providence?? Walker and Blain seem to be popular names in the area.
Anything we have come across the name "Frank" was used but we have also checked for "Francis"
He used to tell his children that he was born in the place, the cheese was named after.
I live in Canada, so searching can be difficult.
Would there have been some sort of directory?
If anything had happened to Frank during the war, how would a
letter get to Annie Blain in Norley?
Thanks for your help.
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Hello Shelley
Despite the extra info I am stil not having any luck with this one.
I think this may well be one for Peter ;D as he has access to earlier censuses and may be able to find John and Helen Walker together.
Thanks Peter :-*
Carol
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Hi
Like Carol I have searched the Norley area for a sighting of Frank or Annie, with no luck, so searched the whole of Cheshire census and BMD records again no matches.
What I have done is to find you a list of Blains and Walkers living in Norley or Kingsley in 2003 can I suggest write to then, you never know you may get lucky. I will send you these seperatley
The electoral indexes of around 1918 do not show wifes as they did not get the vote until the late 1920's and I do not have acsess to them. They will have a copy at the Cheshire records office and it should not take them long to find her if she is still around in the 1930's
http://www.cheshire.gov.uk/Recordoffice/aboutus/recoffcontact.htm
Can you tell us when he emmigrated and who with ?
regards
peterbennett
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I wish I knew.... I would think that he would have been approx. 15/16 but I am not sure. We do not know if he came with anyone. The story goes that his father was into Dairy farming and Frank loved horses and didn't want anything to do with dairy farming. His father was enraged and I do not know if he threw Frank out or just became unbearable to live with.
His mother supposedly gave him some money to come to Canada. Thank you so much for your help. The next step is writing letters. Will keep you informed as to progress.
I didn't know about Rootschat.com until last week when I posted the messages, I am ecstatic that I found it.
I will certainly be letting others know about this great site!
Take care and Thanks again.
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Shelley
On the Canadian death certs it gives the length of time as a resident there.
And also confirms parent's names.You mention his attestation papers.
It has been known for lads to fib al ittle to get into the services you know ;D
You need to get hold of Frank's dearh cert to confirm some of the info you already have from the marriage one.
Do you know if Annie and hubby had kids? You can check this out on the pay per view site 1837online.It gives the mothers maiden name after 1912.So should be much easier to find out if you do indeed have the correct person.
Also a way of tracking her marriage down.
The fact that he gave her name as next of kin-either suggests both parents had died,or that they had a major falling out as you suspect.How sad :(
All the best,
Carol
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Bit of a long shot I know but I've found a burial at St John's, Norley as follows:
11 JAN 1961 Annie BLAIN of The Mount, Norley a86y
You can find some Parish Records for Kingsley and also Norley at this web address:
http://www.geocities.com/sbarnowl/index.html
odessa.
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Well done Odessa ;D
Checking the info on 1837online tells me that she was 86.Making her birth around 1875,I'll look on some censuses later to see if we can tie any Annie's and Franks' together now.
The ref, if you think this may be correct Shelley is, Runcorn district 10a page 659 in the March quarter of 1961.Lets hope it is the correct Annie and that she did in fact stay in Norley al her married life ;)
I think she may well have been Frank's big sister and therefore perhaps the parents had indeed died quite a few years earlier.
All the best
Carol
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With Odessa's brilliant website find I have just come across this marriage ...
05 FEB 1927
Merrick BLAIN/24/bach/Clerk/Sunny Bank, Norley
father Arthur William Blain/Collector of Taxes
m Elsie Sanders PEERS/21/spinster//Sandy Bank, Norley/Wm. Peers/Butcher.
After Banns.
Witnessed by Wm. Peers & John Walker Blain.
With the witness being John Walker BLAIN he just HAS to be Annie's son don't you think? And therefore the groom here is probably her son too- what a nice unusual name to look for,and born in 1903 too.
Now your problem is do you want to be related to a tax inspector Hahaha ;D
Regards
Carol
PS I have found 26 year old Arthur Blain with his parents on the 1901 census in Norley and the 1902 birth of Merrick.
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I have just found this marriage ????? So is this them or is it totally the wrong couple.
Marriages Dec 1901
Blain Arthur William Chester 8a 664
Oultram Annie Chester 8a 664
Mmmmm more reserach needed here me thinks.
Carol
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MMmmmm the plot thickens !!!
Just found this Annie Oultram in 1901 with her grandparents all living in Norley.
Annie Oultram 22 Delamere, Cheshire, England Granddaughter
Charlotte Walker 66 Norley, Cheshire, England Wife
John Walker 58 Waverton, Cheshire, England Head
Margaret A Walker 14 Norley, Cheshire, England Granddaughter
As you said her grandma is Charlotte Walker,but who are her mum and dad then?
I can't access the image at the moment to see if she is married or single.
More on this one later- or are the girls cousins perhaps?
Carol
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She is listed as single.
On the same image is another Oultram family.
Ann Frodsham 75 Eccles, Lancashire, England Mother-in-law Norley Cheshire
Edith Oultram 11 Norley, Cheshire, England Daughter Norley Cheshire
Jessie Oultram 7 Norley, Cheshire, England Daughter Norley Cheshire
Mary Oultram 44 Isle of Man, Isle of Man Wife Norley Cheshire
Richard Oultram 38 Kingsley, Cheshire, England Head Norley Cheshire
Could this be her Mum and Dad? and she was just down the road, four doors, with her Grandparents on the day of the census?
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In 1891 Annie is age 12 and still with her grandparents John and Charlotte Walker and also with her is 4 year old Margaret A Walker (poss her cousin? )
And in 1881 here she is with mum and dad ,living in Eddisbury.
At Eddisbury Lodge Cottage on RG11/3521 Folio: 5 Page: 4
Annie Oultram abt 1879 Delamere, Daughter Eddisbury
Ellen Oultram abt 1861 Norley, Wife Eddisbury
James Oultram abt 1859 Kingsley, Head Eddisbury farm labourer.
Next door is a Walker family with parents John and Charlotte.
So the Ellen Oultram looks very much like she was a Walker before marrying James.
Hope you're following all this Shelley ;D and you Peter ;D ;D ;D
All the best
Carol
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You get triple "AAA+" Awesome award!
I have never come across a site that has so many helpful people.
Thank you so much for all you are doing.
I spoke to Frank's daughter tonight and gave her the info you have supplied.
She has not heard the name "Oultram" previously.
Who knows it could very well be that Frank, really cut the ties that bind and changed his last name from Oultram to Walker. after his grandparents. But where is he? He should be somewhere in the 1891 census or at least the 1901 census. I don't think that he would have to lie on his Canadian Expeditionary Force papers if he was born in 1889 he would be well past the age requirement and I would think that he could get away with adding a couple of years to get in. I wonder why Annie and her cousin Margaret were living with her grandparents. Whilst I think of it, one of Franks daughters is called Margaret, other siblings are Earl, Martha Elaine, and Irene Marion.
It could very well be that John Walker Blain is Annies son
I wonder if her father was that hard to live with that Annie
decided to honor her Grandparents using the Walker family name too. So many questions??? I truly appreciate all you are doing for us.
Thanks again.
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I have found another link between the two families which proves that Ellen Oultram(Annie's mum ) was a Walker !
Cheshire Marriage indexes for the years: 1876 to 1880
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
OULTRAM James and WALKER Ellen in Chester, St John Cheshire West CE13/10/359
And this birth in the June quarter of 1890(just a year after you thought it was)
Walker Frank Nantwich 8a 369
Maybe Peter can tell us if this is possibly him? Not sure of my reg districts in Cheshire ;D
Carol
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Also now found another birth in Norley,looks like Annie's grandson.
June 23, 1928 Derek Peers BLAIN son of Merrick and Elsie Sanders BLAIN nee Peers, Popular Grove, Sale, Clerk, bap April 28, 1929
That was off the website that Odessa very kindly found.
Carol
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Hi All
Right I am back, gosh you lot have been busy ! I have had a good look at this a while ago, and although without BMD certificates its difficult this is how I see it.
1860 John Walker married Charlotte Lewis Chester St John
1861 Ellen Walker born Norley
1878 Ellen Walker married James Oultram Chester St John
1880 Annie Oultram born Delemere
1892 Frank Oultram born Frodsham needs birth cert to confirm parents http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/
James Oultram born c1861 was the cousin of brothers John c1850 and William c1853 Oultram all born Kingsley,
1874 John Oultram married Mary Lewis Runcorn
1884 Harry Oultram born Kingsley
1876 William Oultram married Hannah Rowland Chester
1882 Robert Outram born Kingsley
Neither James, Ellen or Frank show up in 1901 census. Is it possible that they all emigrated together, and Annie stayed at home with her Walker grandparents ?
Shelley is it possible to check any Canadian census 1900 ?
I feel that something happened to make her change her name back to Walker is there anything on the Canada BMD's.
So folks what do you think ???
peterbennett
Carol/
The Frank Walkers born Runcorn
1901 census shows Frank 11 father Joseph mother Martha
Frank 10 ~ Philip ~ Elizabeth
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Anything is possible...maybe this is the reason we haven't been able to find him.
I shall check Canadian sites and get back to you.
By the way, when you read this it will be his daughters 81st birthday.
What a gift!!!
Thank you so much. I will keep you informed.
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Thanks for clarifying that Runcorn Frank Walker, Peter.
I hadn't thought of him being born an Oultram,not a Walker.
I suppose it would account for why he gave his sister Annie's name as next of kin to the army ;D
Lets hope Shelley has some luck with the 1901 Canadian census.
I understand that some area's are pretty well covered and others not :(
Happy birthday Franks daughter- my dad would have been 81 recently if he'd lived past 46,but sadly he did not :'(
I think we are at last making progress here boys n girls ;)
Carol
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Hi , My Walkers were from Eddisbury. ,I visited the graveyard at Delamere and saw the graves for this Walker family. The Lodge is still there. Jean in Florida
Dwelling: Eddisbury Lodge Cottage
Census Place: Eddisbury, Cheshire, England
Source: FHL Film 1341843 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 3521 Folio 5 Page 4
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
James OULTRAM M 22 M Kingsley, Cheshire, England
Rel: Head
Occ: Farm Labourer
Ellen OULTRAM M 20 F Norley, Cheshire, England
Rel: Wife
Annie OULTRAM 2 F Delamere, Cheshire, England
Rel: Daur
Dwelling: Eddisbury Lodge
Census Place: Eddisbury, Cheshire, England
Source: FHL Film 1341843 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 3521 Folio 5 Page 3
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
John WALKER M 39 M Waverton, Cheshire, England
Rel: Head
Occ: Farmer (Small)
Charlotte WALKER M 46 F Norley, Cheshire, England
Rel: Wife
Occ: Farmers Wife
Denis WALKER U 18 M Norley, Cheshire, England
Rel: Son
Occ: Farmers Son
Thomas WALKER U 16 M Kingswood, Cheshire, England
Rel: Son
Occ: Farmers Son
Alice WALKER 13 F Kingswood, Cheshire, England
Rel: Daur
Occ: Farmers Daur
Anne WALKER 11 F Kingswood, Cheshire, England
Rel: Daur
Occ: Scholar
William WALKER 9 M Kingswood, Cheshire, England
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
Alfred WALKER 7 M Kingswood, Cheshire, England
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
James WALKER U 33 M Kelsall, Cheshire, England
Rel: Servant
Occ: General Servant (Farm) (Indoor)
Charlotte Lewis SPRUCE U 18 F Norley, Cheshire, England
Rel: Servant
Occ: Domestic Servant
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Oh My!!! I am so happy that there is someone out there that really could be related!
Do you know of any family stories>? I will give you a short account of the goings on.
You see, my Ex Mother in law is searching for family.
We think that her father may have changed his name when he came to Canada.
He was a groom. Loved horses and the story goes that his father was a farmer with cows. Dairy, we think. Franks father, wanted him to stay working with the cows and Frank wanted to work with horses
after a row. We believe his father disowned him and his mother gave him some money to come to Canada. He must have been around 17 or so maybe a little older.
Frank had a sister called Annie and she was named his next of kin on his attestation papers for WW1. This was about 1917 or 18.
Mrs. Annie Blain, lived at Norley nr Warrington. That is all the contact info listed.
The family can't find any birth info for Frank. Altho, he used to say
that he came from the place named like the cheese "Cheshire"
The great people at ROOTS CHAT have more or less pieced together that the Oultram family must be his birth family and Walker
which is the name he went by, was actually his mothers maiden name. His daughter remembers him mentioning that his Grandmother was called Charlotte. Would you have any pictures?
I have a couple and maybe we could compare and see if there is a family resemblance.
Frank was not tall and he was slight of build.
He also mentioned the names, Harry and Robert.
Please feel free to contact me at
Can't wait to hear from you.
Thanks for replying.
EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED TO PREVENT IT BEING LIFTED BY SPAMMERS
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Hi,
My great grandmother was from Norley and if I remember rightly one of her ancestors married into the Blains. She was one of the Clarkes of Norley.If you are looking for any church records for Norley before 1850 then search at St Lawrence church Frodsham .
My Walkers had lived in Eddisbury and Delamere since at least 1820, these are the earliest church records I have .My family lived on Old Pale, a farm near the church. My great uncle , William was the farm foreman. He married a Lewis and moved to Canada in about 1924. The family have a ranch in Alberta in Vermillion.
My mother lived there until 1952 and my grandfather until 1959.
My son is typical of our Walkers, tall and very thin. We also come in my size short and plump.we are the exception Ive heard.
Unfortunatly I have few stories as I was a foster child and only discovered my roots through the computer . Still a couple of years ago I went to Cheshire and met all my family except my mother and grandfather who were all ready dead. Still I visited the family villages and found family graves the family didn't know existed.
Our names tend to be Charles, William, Sarah, Ellen Thomas Fredrick and Martha.
Best wishes jean in Florida
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Hi Jean
I can say that Franks mothers name was as he pronounced it
"Helen" but then he used to say "Heggs" for eggs.
So someone that was Canadian and listening to him could have
mistaken Helen for Ellen.
You also mentioned Martha... his youngest daughters name.
This could be the start of something good.
I would like to send you a pic of Frank... maybe you would see a resemblance.
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Hi Shelly,
That would be good. I am on the wrong computer to send one of my son who apparently is a typical Walker from our family. He looks the image of my birth mother so I suppose its true.
Can you send pictures on this or do you need my email adress?
Best wishes Jean
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well i tried but it doesn't allow it... the file is too large
so if you could send me your email directly to my address
i will send it that way.
thanks and take care
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I am years late in chipping in on this conversation, but in case any of you still drop by - I wonder if Annie Blain was the same person who was known to lots of Delamere and Norley children as Mam Blain. Mam Blain was a sort of child-minder/foster mother for many children. My mother lived with her for some time when, I assume, my Gran was ill. I know precious little about her but enough for her to have inspired a character in my current novel. I blogged about her here: http://snigsfoot.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/mam-blains-cottage-norley.html
The girl in the photograph is her daughter, Emma.
Rob Crompton.
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Hi
Chipping in even later, I've only just seen this thread. John Walker Blain born 11 January 1903 married my mother's sister - he was known as Jack. I know he had a brother called Merrick. I also know that his mother lived to a good age and I remember seeing her on many occasions at my aunt and uncle's house. I remember she became rather a thorn in the side to my aunt. I'm racking my brain for her name, but only ever remember her being called Mrs Blain.
If anyone from the original thread is still around, I'll try to look up further info for you.
Lizzie
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HI, I am still researching this family!!! All of Frank's children have passed now but there are many Grandchildren and Great Grandchildren that would still like to know more about his family.
Annie Oultram Blain was Frank's sister and she was married to Arthur Blain last quarter of 1901.
Annie was the daughter of Ellen Walker and James Oultram, she was born 1880 in Delamere and died in 1915(?), which I question. I believe that she left James and lived elsewhere. Their other children are Merrick, Eric William, and John Walker Blain.
James remarried a lady called Martha Nickson in 1889, she died in 1939.
Merrick died in 1960, he is the first cousin 1x removed of my husband, who died in 2011. He was called David, he died of lung cancer and his mother was Irene Marion, she died in 2005 of stomach cancer.
Merrick married Elsie Sanders, I do not know if they had any children.
Hope this helps.
Shelley in Canada
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Hi Shelley
I'll get back to you when I've looked up the info I have. I can definitely confirm that the mother of John Walker Blain (my uncle Jack) and Merrick Blain definitely did not die in 1915 as I met her and I wasn't born until 1941. It's possible that the death of an Annie Blain in Norley in 1961 (which Odessa found) is correct, in the back of my mind is that she was over 90 when she died and if she died in 1961 she would only have been 82. Perhaps she just looked very old. My uncle and aunt had one son, born in 1942. I'm not in touch with him so don't want to let you have his name as he is still living. I know he is married, but I haven't a clue whether he has any children or what he does/did for a living.
I wish I'd seen your original query in 2005 as my mum was still alive then and could have answered lots of your questions.
Lizzie
ps. I don't know anything about the Walker family, only the Blains. I know my aunt met John Walker Blain in/around Norley when she was visiting another branch of the family who had a daughter of similar age that she was very friendly with.
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I’m a bit confused with this comment you made.
“Annie was the daughter of Ellen Walker and James Oultram, she was born 1880 in Delamere and died in 1915(?), which I question. I believe that she left James and lived elsewhere. Their other children are Merrick, Eric William, and John Walker Blain”.
Presumably you were told that Annie died in 1915 and that it was Ellen who left James Oultram and lived elsewhere. If james remarried a lady called Martha Nickson in 1889, perhaps it was Ellen who died in 1915. Also if James and Ellen parted and James re-married in 1889, it's possible that your Frank Walker, wasn't the son of James Oultram. Perhaps Ellen registered him as Oultram to make his birth appear legitimate, or if she died in 1915 James Oultram took him in and raised him as his own son, but then Frank later found out that he wasn't an Oultram so took his mother's maiden name as his own. I can also see why he may have fallen out with James Oultram if he wasn't his real father. Interestingly, Findmypast have a baptism for a Frank Oultram, birth 1 December 1892, which ties in with the birth Pete found. However, his father's name is given as John and on the 1901 census there is an Outram . I've run out of ideas, I think you need to find a birth around 1889 for a Frank Walker and see if his mother was called Ellen.
Re Eric William Blain, supposedly a brother of Merrick and John Walker Blain. I’ve never heard of him. There is a birth of an Eric Williams Blain in 1905, but on the 1911 census he is living at The Bank, Kingsley with George and Mary Harvey (Mary was born 1884) and shown as a stepson, there is also a child called George Arthur Blain aged 1 month shown as a son. The Harveys stated they had been married less than 1 year. Looking for marriages, there is one in 1910 of a George Harvey and a Mary E Blain. Looking for Mary Blain on the 1901 census brings her up living with her widowed father Thomas Blain. I’m sure there is some connection between Mary Blain and her father Thomas and the other Blains, but I can’t find it without a lot of searching and it’s not really the Blains you are interested in.
There was a will proved on 14 June 1937. Arthur William Blain of Sunny Bank, Norley, Cheshire died 21 April 1937. Probate was issued to his widow Annie Blain, effects £1107 10s 5d.
I knew I was correct when I said that I thought that Mrs Blain (nee Annie Oultram) was in her 90s when she died. I also thought, but didn’t mention it last time, that she was still alive when my aunt, her daughter in law, died suddenly in 1967. I’ve found her death in Jan-March quarter 1975. Her date of birth is shown as 25 January 1879. So she was about 95/96 when she died. I remember my mother saying when my aunt died that Mrs Blain had got what she wanted, to live with her son Jack! which is why her death is registered in the Trafford area rather than Cheshire where you were probably looking.
Looking at the Parish record collection on Findmypast, Annie (nee Oultram) was baptised on 30 March 1879, parents James Oultram and Ellen so that fits in with a birth of 25 January 1879.
Merrick Blain of Norley, Bow Green Road, Bowdon died 23 March 1960 at Golf Links Delamere, Cheshire. Probate was given to his widow Elsie Sanders Blain on 25 May 1960. The effects amounted to £10,263 7s 10d. Presumably he died of a heart attack or something as his place of death is given as a golf course.
On a different topic, you mentioned that your sister used to live at Blake Lees Farm, Kingsley and your youngest daughter spent her first Christmas at Blake Lees. There was an Okell family living there in the mid to late 1800s who seem to have been friendly with my 2 x g.grandparents as one of the Okells was an executor of my 2 x g.grandparents wills, along with my 2 x g.grandmother’s brother.
Lizzie
Ps. Presumably you have Frank's attestation papers. Does it give an address for Annie Blain, or just Norley?
The James Oultram who married Martha Nickson in 1889 is shown as a cattle dealer on the banns. He also states he is a widower. Not unusual in those days, but a bit dodgy if you are re-marrying in the same place as you live and your wife is not deceased but just left.
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;D Hi, so very sorry for being so late in replying to you but life got in the way! My ex-husband (now deceased) is the person that is connected to these families, and of course, our children. I am researching very infrequently these days... my ex's first cousin is still researching as she is directly connected to these families.
Annie Walker Blain was supposedly the sister of Frank Walker. I do have copies of his attestation papers and the info given is conflicting. Different parents, different birthdates, but they are one and the same person. He obviously did not want to be found..his own daughters were not given much info over the years either. Regarding Annie "LEAVING" James, NO, I was referring to Ellen...but I believe that Ellen passed away, she did not leave. But then that also means that she could not be the mother of "Frank" The cousin I mentioned has had her DNA done and there is definitely an "Oultram" connection!. Will be in touch again, soon...I promise!
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That's OK, the Blains/Walkers are not my ancestors, it is just that John Walker Blain married my aunt (my mother's sister). If I can help with anything else I will, but the only info I've got is from knowing John Walker Blain as my aunt's husband so, therefore, he was my uncle, knowing his brother was called Merrick and I think I met him a couple of times and also knowing John Walker Blain's mother who I saw many times before she died. From memory she was a thin woman always dressed in black but when I was young many old widows did dress in black.
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Hi Lizzie! We are researching again...Jane got her DNA done and is definitely related to an Oultram! Hope you are keeping well! All the best!
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Thanks for letting me know.
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Hi Eddisbury...I tried to access your blog, but apparently I need an invitation! I do pop by every now and then....Cheers! BTW... email addy is family found at netscape. net no spaces and the sign for at...