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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: phill100 on Tuesday 17 November 09 21:18 GMT (UK)
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It seems that young millers in the early 1800s would have had to move away from their hometown in order to either get a job in a mill or take charge of a mill (unless they were lucky enough to move into a father's or relative's business).
How far might a young miller travel to take up a new position?
I wonder if readers have examples of millers moving within a county, from neighbouring counties or across the country? If the method of travel was known, that would also be of interest.
The context of this question is a miller who moved to a mill in Markfield (Leicestershire) about 1807, from an unknown location.
Phill
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Outskirts of Edinburgh to ditto of Liverpool around 1860. Nothing known about transport, but he soon had his brothers in law [from the same area] working with him and the family group stayed very close for 40-odd years.
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Hi Phil
I have an ancestor, William Noyes (c1785-1850) who was a miller. He married in the Parish of Stoke Lane (Stoke St Michael) in Somerset in 1805, although he wasn't born there. His wife was from the parish & there was certainly a mill there, so I presume he moved there for work. He seems to have moved around the north-east area of Somerset, various children being baptised near Frome and one at Wells. His wife received an inheritance in the 1830s and they appear in Bristol in 1841, living with a son and his family - William still gives his occupation as miller - but may of course be retired in the modern sense
Steve
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Many thanks Ainslee and Steve,
From Edinbugh to Liverpool would have been quite a distance, but I assume that train services would have made that length of trip quite possible.
It begs the question about how it was known in Edinburgh that there was a mill or mill position available in Liverpool - I suppose there may well have been advertisements in newspapers, or perhaps the info was passed by word-of-mouth.
Steve, how far did William travel to get to the mill/town in the first place? Did he move there to start his new position and then married in the parish? I wonder if moving several times within the county was a normal thing, depending on demand for labour in the various towns in the district.
The reason for my questions would probably be clear - my miller moved into Markfield (and then married later), but I do not know from where. It would be handy to assume that he did not move very far to take up his position, however he could have moved from as far away as Scotland.
Many thanks again
Phill
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Hi Phil
Sorry but I've no idea where William originated - the Noyes surname is fairly common on the Somerset/Wilts border area, but I've not traced his baptism yet. He was about 20 when he married, so he could have been working for six years or more. I always assume that mills in rural areas mean corn mills - but of course they could be industrial (tucking mills in cloth areas for instance). Edinburgh & Liverpool would also imply industrial mills I would have thought
Steve
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Thanks Steve,
It sounds as if you are in the same predicament as me; that of not knowing where our miller was born. It is tempting to assume that millers did not move a great distance in the course of seeking work in a corn/grinding mill, however it also seems that it might not be prudent to make that assumption.
In terms of determining the type of mill, the Mills Archive is a handy source (/www.millsarchive.com/1about/portal.aspx), though I dare say you know that already.
One of the references on the Mills Archive (or it may have been a link from there) mentioned that millers often passed on their skills to a son.
Another point of interest to me is the status of a miller in the town. One reference mentioned that millers had a "high status" because they could "read, write and use numbers" and were often quite well-off. Another reference said that they were considered to be rogues, because they could use their skills with numbers to underpay farmers.
Thanks again for your response
Phill
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The Mills Archive Trust is doing a great job - but are short of volunteers to help catalogue their vast collection (which is still growing far more quickly than they can catalogue it). If you live near Reading and can spare some time to help I am sure they would love to hear from you.
They are also very interested in receiving information about millers and their families. If you have any millers in your family let them know.
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Mine went from Dumfries to Dunbarton (100 miles), then later to Arran.
The first move was for an apprenticeship, so they must have had good mill-community contacts across the country to arrange such things - maybe?
Edited to add - the travelling miller's father was also a miller - don't know why he didn't get apprenticed to his dad!
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John Gatford, miller, was born 1829 in Cuckfield, Sussex; miller's assistant 1851 in Henfield, Sussex; then 1861 at Midhurst, Sussex; 1871 at Botley, Hants; 1881 at Westbourne, Sussex and 1891 at Lower Stanton, Wilts.
His brother William, born 1835 went with him as far as Midhurst and stayed there as a journeyman miller until his death in 1902.
Another point of interest to me is the status of a miller in the town. One reference mentioned that millers had a "high status" because they could "read, write and use numbers" and were often quite well-off. Another reference said that they were considered to be rogues, because they could use their skills with numbers to underpay farmers.
Millers seem to have been unpopular in England from the Middle Ages, when villagers were compelled to have their corn ground at the lord's mill. There was a suspicion that they got less flour back than they ought - as in Chaucer's Reeve's Tale.
It's said this is the reason the surname Miller is relatively less common in Britain than in the US where many Miller families were originally Mullers from Germany.
Though I've never worked out why Germans were so much more trusting...
Larry
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Dumfries to Dunbarton would have been quite a distance, assuming that there may not have been any direct transport links(?) That would indicate that some young men would have had to travel a long way from home to take up an apprenticeship. It is interesting that the son was not apprenticed to his dad, but perhaps it was the dad's contacts that enabled the apprenticeship to be organised? Many thanks for your respopse - a 100 miles from Markfield certainly opens up the field to be searched a bit wider than I had earlier considered feasible.
The Mills Archive would be good cause to help as they certainly are doing a great job (I had some contact with them some time ago) - at the moment I am working in Germany, so can't volunteer in Reading - but have volunteered to do some internet based transcribing instead.
And thanks Larry - I didn't know there were relatively fewer Millers in the UK than elsewhere, nor that an apparent question about the honesty of millers might have been the reason (all the Miller families I have known were honest!)
Now I am not sure whether to believe that my miller was totally honest or not - he was also apparently a Parish Clerk so perhaps that evens the reputation a bit.
I suppose the distance a miller, whether fully qualified or ready to be apprenticed, had to travel may also have depended on how many mills there were in any particular area - did Sussex, for example, have a relatively high number of mills, whereas the area around Dumfries did not?
Phill
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My gggrandfather and ggrandfather were Millers in Sussex. Gggrandfather was a miller at Windmill Hill in 1841 and later with his sons at Coxes Mill Dallington and Darwell Mill Brightling.Ggrandfather who was at Coxes and Darwell in 1860s was at Heath Mill Pulborough in 1871 and then by 1891 was in Yarmouth I.O.W --I think still working. By 1901 he is in Somerset -retired but living near Gants Mill in Bruton. I think there must be a family connection with this mill as my grandmother liked to visit.
Ringrose
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Hello Phill
I'm having great fun tracing the Stonyer millers in my family. As far as I can see, they all worked watermills. The earlist confirmed location I have is Sides Mill, midway between Snelston and Mayfield on the Derbyshire/Staffordshire borders. Then, I have various christenings that put them in London, Surrey; St Albans, Herts; and Atherstone in Warwickshire. From there they made their way to Shropshire to the area around Chelmarsh, working mills at Wrickton, Deuxhill, and Eudon; Belbroughton at Bell End Mill in Worcestershire, now demolished to make way for road widening :'(; and Lower Mitton (Stourport), also in Worcestershire. I also have records of christenings in Wombourne, which possibly points to Smetsow Mill, Seighford and Checkley. There is a tentative link to Sutton Coldfield in the mid 1600s via a Stonyer "grynder" whose will requests he is buried in Sutton Coldfield churchyard, and other tentative links to other mills in Staffordshire - viz Blythe Bridge and Great Bridgford.
Most census returns list the millers as "journeyman", which implies they were hired for the job by the mill owner. Most maps seems to show that they occupied a house and possibly several acres of land alongside the mill. Clearly they were very mobile, with the sons moving to new mills when they had completed whatever apprenticeships were necessary, or when the ownership of the mill changed hands. A lot of my links are tentative based on groups of chistenings and the use of first names that seem to be common in the family. An unusual surname also helps a little, although it's frequently mis-spelt, and on occasion just left as an initial!
Finally, one Stonyer miller made his way to New Zealand where he firmly established himself and his sons as millers, and developing machinery for processing flax, too. I found over 2000 newspaper references for him and his family (most advertisements, but some really "juicy" stuff too ;D ;D )
I've used the Mills Archive to try and trace my ancestors, but the information there is very scant considering just how many mills there must have been. Tim Booth of the Midland Mills group has been very useful: he has actually resored Wrickton Mill where my Gt Gt Grandfather worked with his uncle. However, as the mill workers were probably not the mill owners, there's precious few actual records that can be found. Some mills may have belonged to larger estates, and it may be possible to find references in the estate records, but whether records of millers hired have been kept is another matter.
One intersting side note is the number of children who became engineers rather than following on the milling tradition, so it would seem that millers must have been, as a rule, reasonably well educated, practical people.
I have heard that they were not popular, though, as people often suspected them of handing back less flour milled that grain supplied :o
David
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I have an ancestor who was a miller in West Suffolk in the 1740s as a young man. By 1753 he was in Dennington, Suffolk at a mill according to an old document. In 1760 he and his wife had a son baptised in Laxfield. These villages are 25 or more miles away from their birth parishes.
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I have a g-g-grandfather who owned Pimm's Yard, a corn mill in Wandsworth, Surrey. Several generations of the family lived in South Street, just down the road, and they owned the mill for about a century.
I'm no professional, but my miller ancestos never left Wandsworth.
Hope this helps a bit.
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I'm having great fun tracing the Stonyer millers in my family. As far as I can see, they all worked watermills. The earlist confirmed location I have is Sides Mill, midway between Snelston and Mayfield on the Derbyshire/Staffordshire borders.
David
Hi David/all,
I am converting the old mill building at Sides Mill in Snelston and found this whilst tracing the history of the buildings and farm where my in-laws have been for 47 years (12 pages so far going back to the 1200's.) PLEASE contact me with all/any info you have on the Stonyers at Sides Mill.......not one I have heard of yet!
David
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Some of my ancestors were involved in milling in Rimpton and other parts of Somerset in the 18th and 19th centuries. The mills were rented from the Diocese of Salisbury, whose diocesan records are lodged in the Hampshire Record Office at Winchester. I found the records most useful, and it is worth bearing in mind if you can't find records in what seems to be the geographically correct record office.
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I am researching Stonyers. John Stonyer was married twice at Snelston, both times by license. Firstly in 1772 to Sarah Fletcher of Cubley & secondly to Sarah Harrison of Dovebridge. He was a miller.Sarah Stonyard? of SidesMill was buried in 1790. John & Alice Stonyer had chidren baptised at Mayfield & Snelston between 1756 & 1766 but I can't find a baptism for John (around 1749) to link him with them.
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Hi Ashbourne. Thanks for that - most interesting. I have an advert for 1784 showing the mill to be lett as a "cotton mill" formerly a leather mill. Possibly a change in use with the interest in cotton around that time?
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Hi Ashbourne
I'm not sure about John Stonyer's two marriages to Sarah Fletcher and Sarah Harrison. The dates don't seem to quite tie up.
There's a John Stonyer (John #1) . Don't know who his wife was. Suspect he lived at Sides Mill.
I suspect John #1 had (at least) three children:
1. John #2 (born c1735) birthplace not known, buried Mayfield 15 Jan 1795
2. Richard (Born c1750), birthplace and burial place not known
3. Thomas (Born c 1755 - died 1820 Kidderminster) married Sarah Johnson 24 Jul 1776, Mayfield
If these three were born at Sides Mill, where are the baptisms? There's a big gap between John # 2 and Richard.
I've assumed John #2 married twice, (i) Alice, surname unknown, and (ii) Sarah Fletcher 2 Mar 1772
Children of John #2 and Alice:
1. Thomas (1753, Checkley - ?) married Elizabeth Malkin (27 Dec 1779, Mapleton) (not 100% sure of these)
2. Alice (1756, Mayfield - ?)
3. William (1756, Mayfield - ?)
4. Mary (1758, Mayfield - ? )
5. William (1760 - ?) married Mary Cope 15 Oct 1781, Kidderminster
6. Joseph (1761, Snelston - ?)
7. Sukey (1763, Snelston - 1827) Married John Cleobury Collins 19 Mar 1794, Baddesley Ensor
8. Elisabeth (1766, Snelston - ?)
9. John (1767 - 1841) married (i) Rebecca Straw, 9 Nov 1806, Tamworth (ii) Susanna Evans, 7 Mar 1819, Kidderminster
The puzzle here is why the switch from Mayfield to Snelston between 1758 and 1763, and where is the baptism for William, born 1760. Maybe a trip to view the actual parish registers is needed, it wouldn't be the first time a Stonyer's gone missing from the IGI transcripts!
Children of John and Sarah Fletcher:
1. John Stonyer (1775 - ?) married Sarah Harrison 21 Sep 1795. Snelston.
Children of John Stonyer and Sarah Harrison:
1. John Stonier (1798, Snelston)
Does this make sense?
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On John's marriage bond in 1795 John is a widower. His first wife Sarah Harrison was buried at Mayfield in 1790. Memorial in churchyard. I can't find any children of this marriage. John was baptised in Cheadle in 1747 son of John & Alice. Other children of this marriage were William Susannah, Richard (baptised at Cheadle) Alice, William, Mary (baptised at Mayfield) Suckey & Elizabeth baptised at Snelston. 1st William was buried at Cheadle & Susannah at Mayfield
Richard was married by licence at Snelston.
Father,John, (wife of Alice) buried at Mayfield in 1795 age 77 resident of Norbury.
Alice buried at Mayfield in1778
My search is for children of Sarah Harrison & Fletcher & burial of husband & 2nd wife . I have the line of John born in 1798 (married to Margaret Ball in Marston Montgomery
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Hi Ashbourne
I've sent you a PM.
David
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This may be a total coincidence but I have recently discovered that my ancestor was a miller at Markfield an Edward Pywell. In 1841 I believe his wife lived with a Richard Bacon/Beacon and the 2 children assumed his surname.