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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: pigginnut on Sunday 22 November 09 15:55 GMT (UK)
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Please can anyone help here.
We have the birth certificate of Annie Kezia Synes
she was born in 1906 in Selborne Hants and her father is given as George William Synes and mother Eliza Synes formerly Rosewell.
I have found the family on 1911 census they are living at 33 Celynen Terrace, Newbridge Monmouthshire
BUT the mother is down as Sarah Ann born 1875 Greenwich London. It also says they have been married for 15 years
all the children except the youngest were born in selborne and the father was down as being born Battersea London abt 1873. Occupation Miner
In 1901 the family are living in Selborne. Mother is still Sarah but the fathers occupation is Soldier and something in brackets after it that i cannot read.
I am a bit at a loss I cannot find a marriage of george to either either elizabeth or sarah
which is correct why the different mothers name on birth cert.
I suppose he could have had an army marriage
incidentally the surname is frequently mispelt and on 1901 is sines
Can anyone help me out here please
Teresa
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Hi Teresa,
FreeBMD has
Marriages Sep 1895 Kingston 2a 679
George Lines or Sines to either Sarah Ann Butcher or Sarah Ann Roberts
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hmmmm it did sort of note that but its the eliza rosewell on the birth cert that is throwing me
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Did you get the birth cert from the GRO or directly from the local registry office where the birth was registered and is the certificate a handwritten copy or a photo copy? If the cert you have is a copy, then it is possible that "Eliza" is a mistake and should be "Sarah". Perhaps the clerk got distracted and copied part of the information from another certificate. I have found that if you email the local registry office with all the info from a cert (to prove you do have it, and you're not trying to pull a fast one!) and question, in this case for example, the mother's maiden name, the registry office will email back to confirm one way or the other.
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Thanks for that suggestion I actually got it from the GRO so i don't know if it is a copy or not, don't know how it all works
I will try what you said tho
Thanks
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In 1901 a lot of men had volunteered for the war in South Africa...
You could ask for a medal roll look up on the Armed Forces boards...
Discharges pre 1913 are in the process of being digitised by FindMyPast They were available for look up at Kew alphabetically... ;) WO97
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Many of the certificates I have purchased from Southport contain a photographic copy of the original certificate as issued. If you go to a local registry office you are much more likely to receive a hand written copy, with all the attendant risks previously outlined.
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The original registration was done at the local registry office at the time of the event. Each quarter these were copied up (by hand) and sent to the General Register Office. Many errors must have occured at that point.
These quarterly returns were organised into alphabetical order at the General Register Office and indexed - more errors in the indexes but presumably not in the certificates themselves.
Then we order a certificate and you may get from the local register office a modern hand copy or a photocopy of the original cert, or you get a cert from GRO, which is either a photocopy of the copy made at the time of the event or a handwritten copy of the copy made at the time of the event. So the cert from GRO is always a copy somewhere along the line, but the cert from the local register office may be a photocopy of the actual record. Sorry that's not the most elegant English, hope you get the gist of it !
Either way, I'm sure the local registrar will check their certificate for you and tell you if the original said Elizabeth or Sarah.
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thank you all i have emailed them and hope for a result
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Position on certificates now clear. i.e. Southport always a copy of something, local registrar may be either handwritten or photocopy of original. Seems local must be the better bet.
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Well I have heard back from the local registry office in hampshire and they have kindly checked. The mothers name on their records is the same as on the certificate i recieved.
So now I don't know what to think
Anyone got any ideas
Teresa
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Hi Teresa
I have not read your previous thread yet - but just looking around and putting 2 and 2 together to make 5, there is an Eliza Rosewell born 1875 Greenwich. There is a matching birth registration and a good sighting on 1891 census where she is a servant. I know this does not mean anything but funny how there are matching details for 'Sarah' on the 1911. Did she have an alias or something.
Tressle
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tHANKS FOR THAT i ACTUALLY HADN'T GONE INTO LOOKING FOR THAT BIRTH - ADDS A WHOLE NEW OUTLOOK TO IT - MAYBE SHE WAS ELIZA SARAH OR SOMETHING.
CERTAINLY I HAVE A LOT TO THINK ABOUT.
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Possibly the marriage certificate from 1895 or a birth certificate for one of Annie's siblings would be needed to help clear things up.
You could also look for christenings at Selborne St. Mary (the parish church).
The other spouse at the 1895 marriage was "George Edward Thair", from the 1901 his wife was a Sarah from Rutlandshire Oakham, which makes her more likely to be Sarah Ann Butcher (there is a 1874 birth for Sarah Ann Butcher in Oakham district and she appears on the 1881 census but none for Sarah Ann Roberts and no Sarah Roberts b. Rutland on the 1881 census)
So the 1895 Kingston marriage was probably between George Sines and Sarah Ann Roberts, although I couldn't find a Greenwich birth for Sarah Ann Roberts circa 1875.
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Thank you that is most helpful - i think your idea of another siblings certificate might be a way forward
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Hi all :)
So the 1895 Kingston marriage was probably between George Sines and Sarah Ann Roberts
I had a look at this again and these could well be a different couple altogether. Not sure where they are hiding in 1901 but there's a Sarah Sines born ca. 1877 still in Kingston district in 1911. No husband as far as I can tell but 5 children in the household ...
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hmmmmm i see what you mean - that pretty much rules out that marriage.
I am suspecting that maybe they married abroad or as he was in the army when he was younger maybe it was an army marriage but its not showing up on the records they have on find my past, least i haven't found it
I have put a request on the Hampshire board to see if anyone can check bapt records for the other children to see whatthey say
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In 1901 census for George and Sarah, it says "reservist" in brackets after soldier.
The son, George's birth , doesn't seem to have been registered before the census nor in Hampshire.
I have also looked on army births and marriages for Si/ynes and Rosewell, and can find nothing that looks significant. Also, there are no deaths for George or Sarah on Freebmd, though they may have died more recently than the transcriptions go to.
Did your Annie marry, do you have her marriage cert and is her father's name on that?
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i have the deaths of Annie and her husband and their marriage certificate the father is george william synes
She marriaed in Abercarnn wales where the family were living in 1911
George was born 1900 his birth was in the Alton reg district and he was actually Ernest george
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Also Sarah might be the Sarah A. Sines who married in Kingston in 1914 to James Privett.
There are no Privett/Sines births but there are two births in Kingston (1914, 1916) for Privett/Roberts (and no Privett/Roberts marriage to match).
But in 1911 there is in Kingston also a Sarah Sines, with various children (appears to be a widow) - can't find her in 1901. If she is the one who remarries in 1914, is the 1895 marriage a different family entirely? Or did George have two families?
When Annie married, who were the witnesses on the certificate?
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Ah actually i don't have the certificate silly me - got name of father from 1911 census which tallied with her birth certificate. she married in 1926 in Newport reg district
its all getting complicated lol
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Did you ever get to the bottom of this? I have been trying to trace Sarah Anne Nicholls ( mother of Harold John Nicholls). The 1911 Sarah Sines (widowed) that you have mentioned appears to have been originally Sarah Anne Roberts. She baptised James Henry Sines (noted as sick), with George Sines as Dad in around d 1900. She then baptised two illegitimate children Henry / Herbert Nicholls and Agnes Annie Nicholls in 1906. Violet Elizabeth Sines is baptised as illegitimate in 1908. William Albert Sines is baptised n 1910, and the address is given as the infirmary / workhouse . Sarah then marries to become Sarah Privett ( confirmed by military records of next of kin. )So Sarah has been a Roberts / Nicholls / Sines / Privett. There is a missing child going by the 1911 census so I'm wondering if she may have links to my mysterious ' Sarah Anne Nicholls' in my own family tree.
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Hi No I never did get to the bottom of it, I was doing the research on behalf of my friend but had to stop do to ill health in family. I shall have to get the material out and re investigate it.
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Now the GRO online index has mother's maiden name we can trace a bit easier:
Children of Sarah:
James Henry Sines, mmn Roberts, 1898 D quarter Kingston on Thames
Henry Herbert Nicholls Sines, mmn Roberts, 1905 D quarter Kingston
Violet Elizabeth Sines, mmn Roberts, 1908 S quarter Kingston
William Albert Sines, mmn Roberts, 1910 S quarter Kingston
Meanwhile, there are also these kids, in addition to Annie Kezia, who I think are the kids of Eliza Rosewell:
Ernest George Sines, mmn Rosewell, 1900 J quarter Alton (married 1920, died 1979 as Synes)
William James Sines, mmn Rosewell, 1902 M quarter Alton (married 1925 d. 1973 as Synes)
Robert Edward Sines, mmn Rosewell, 1904 J quarter Alton (married 1935, d. 1972 as Synes)
From this other thread, the boys were baptised in Selbourne with Ernest having "Sarah" on his record and the other having "Eliza":
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=421754.0
I think looking at the dates that it would line up with George leaving Sarah after the birth of James, the later kids are registered as Sines as she was still legally married to him, meanwhile George and Eliza were living as common-law husband and wife.
As at the time of Ernest's baptism he was in the army, perhaps he had 'wife Sarah' listed on his records and therefore that got put down for some official matters because he was worried about people figuring out that 'Sarah' was Eliza and Sarah was living somewhere else entirely!
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In addition, Agnes Annie was registered under the surname Roberts, no mmn listed (on the new GRO index indicating an illegitimate birth usually).
Another child that came up - Mildred Rebecca Synes, mmn Roberts!, 1910 D quarter Newport M
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Hi,
I don't know if you are still reading this message board but I have only just found it.
Annie Keziah Synes was my grandmother. She married Joseph Fredrick Wheatstone and had 3 children. She later married Ceril Bright.
She died in Corby Northants in 1983.
I would love to know your connection to her. Lesley
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Oh I forgot to mention, all three of her children are still alive. My mum says that George's wife was called Elizah but doesn't know where the name Sarah comes from. Milldred was the baby of the family and later moved to Deal in Kent.
George, Robert and William were very tall being up to 6'6".
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Thanks Poppykess I have sent you a private message