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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: nieve on Tuesday 01 December 09 14:55 GMT (UK)
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I have been trying to find the death of Ellen Rooney for some time with no luck.
Ellen, nee Moran, was married in 1878 in St. Helens to Patrick Rooney and on the 1881 Census was living at Peasley Cross Lane with one child and her parents etc.
On the 1891 he classed himself as a widow and the youngest child was 5. So she must have alive in 1886 but I can't find a registered death. I have tried all different variables of her name and even, after finding a site on RootsChat called namethesaurus, still can't find where/what happened to her. Has anybody any other suggestions as to what I can do next?
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Hi Nieve
I see her parents were born in Ireland. I wonder if she had gone back to Ireland with them. Just because Patrick called himself a widower, doesn't mean that he was. Sometimes this was to cover the fact that people were separated.
Alternatively, as her parents were born in Ireland and Patrick was too, maybe they went to Ireland for a visit and Ellen died over there.
Lizzie
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Hi LIzzie, Thanks for your interest. Ellen's father died in 1890 in St. Helens and her mother died in 1887 once again in St. Helens. I have considered the possibility that she 'did a runner' but living with parents and extended family may have been a problem! I have searched high and low for both a maiden and married name, but she could have changed her name to hide herself which is always a possibility. But did she have the wherewithall to do that, as poverty was paramount in those days. Maybe somebody else can come up with a suggestion. Nieve.
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Hi,
You may have this but just in case.
Patrick Rooney married Ellen Moran on 5 May 1878 at Holy Cross RC in St Helens.
Regards
John
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John, Thanks for your interest. I have the marriage certificate in front of me. Patrick lived at Merton Bank Lane, Parr and Ellen lived at 111 Peasley Cross Lane, Sutton. They were married at Holy Cross and I think that these areas had a high Irish population. But where did Ellen get to? Nieve
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It's still possible that if she produced a child around 1886, that she took the child to Ireland to visit Patrick's parents (if they still lived over there) and then she died whilst in Ireland.
Lizzie
ps. Perhaps Patrick just didn't register her death. As they were RC, you could check with Holy Cross RC Church in St Helens to see if they have any records of a burial of an Ellen Rooney.
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Hi LIzzieW. Anything is a possibe. It gets more like a Catherine Cookson story every minute. That is a very good idea about contacting Holy Cross, because I know it still exists. Thank you - Nieve.
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Hi Nieve,
If Holy Cross is at the bottom of Borough Road, St Helens then I think you will find it was demolished within the last couple of years.
Regards
John
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Hello,
can't offer anything more- apart from searching for her and her death with no results.
You can't imagine that Patrick would live with the family as a widower if Ellen had gone off somewhere.
Neither, as you say, can you imagine that she would be able to/ want to go to Ireland at that time.
1901 stays the same with Patrick with the Moran family.
The only other thing I notice, is that in 1891 the family are in Haydock (Warrington reg. district) rather than St Helens -not that there is a death there either.
I did wonder if Winwick mental hospital was open at that time but can't find anything in census.
Have also looked for E R in census (patients listed by initials in mental institutions) but although some show in Prestwich (Manchester)- not born St Helens.
I would hope that Ellen didn't end up in an asylum.
best wishes
heywood
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Message for Heywood, Yes, I agree. Patrick can't have been that bad if they all still lived together. If she had been in any 'home' she would have shown up on any census. This is all really immaterial but it's like that piece in a jigsaw. However, at the suggestion of Lizzie I have contacted Holy Cross Church, via their website, as they have a section on Family History. Watch this space! Nieve.
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That's a good move.
Do you have the last child's birth certificate -I know it says St Helens but as they were living in a different place in 1891, I wondered what address was shown on the certificate.
Just a note re asylums, patients were often just listed as E R with no clues as to identity. As I said, none seem show in Prestwich and I don't know if Winwick was open then.
best wishes
heywood
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Nieve
If Heywood's suggestion is correct and Ellen ended up in a mental hospital (perhaps with postnatal depression), it could be that she didn't die until many years later. One of my g.uncles was in Prestwich Asylum from 1907 until his death in 1964. Ellen was apparently only 18 on the 1881 census, born 1863 (I guess she was nearing her 19th birthday, if not it would mean she married at age 15), so in the usual way of things, you could expect that she would live until about 1940s.
Lizzie
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Help!
I'm not suggesting that's the explanation - only thought of it as a possibility as we can't find a death and that the families remain united.
But then you would wonder why Patrick would class himself as a widower - we would assume that he was upset/ashamed if she deserted him/was in an institution - sadly we don't know :(
heywood
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Having said that - just checked 1911 census and there is an Ellen Rooney born St Helens although in 1875, in an institution in Prestwich. :-\
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Well, after trying to trawl through mental hospital patients sites, and failed miserably, I gave up. I felt as though I could have booked my own bed! So my next plan of action is:- As yet I have had no answer/communication from Holy Cross Church and if there is still no reply in a few days time I will send, as suggested, for the youngest child's birth certificate. If that fails I will just assume she ran off with the coalman and changed her name. My dad could only remember his 'old 'grandfather and his auntie Ellen. That would be Ellen's daughter. If there had been anything 'untoward' in the family I'm sure my grandmother would have known. They all seemed to sit on the pavements gossiping in the summer watching the world go by! My sister said that was because they had no chairs inside. Did nobody speak to anybody in those days or were they all just trying to get enough to eat? Nieve.
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If you were going to look at mental hospital sites, I would look first at the entry for an Ellen Rooney in 1911 census- even if the age is out to just eliminate that Ellen. The problem is that I don't suppose there will be enough information- other than if she is married.
I have just done a quick check on advanced search and even though the record seems to say that she was born 1875, if you include 1878 for marriage year, the same person does show up for Prestwich hospital. However, you would have to access the census to get the proper information. I'm not that sure re 1911 census, though - I put another year of marriage in and that showed up too for the same Ellen ::)
http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9644 indicates that some records are available if this was your Ellen and you wanted to pursue it.
As I said before it is only a suggestion for someone for whom you can't find anything else at the moment. It is also possible that she may well have just run off with the coalman and disappeared with a new name. I suppose you need to look at all possibilities.
best wishes
heywood
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Nieve,
Perhaps you could also approach the local registrar for Prescot or Warrington to enquire about a death registration in case it was one that never got in to the GRO index.
Mary
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Mary, Your suggestion is another avenue for me to explore! That will be a little job for tomorrow afternoon. I have often wondered if transcribers miss people out purely by accident. Nieve
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The fact that Ellen's husband was living with her relatives doesn't prove she didn't run off with someone else. My 2 x g.uncle and two of his children were living with his wife's sister and family and on the census he stated he was a widower. In fact his wife was alive and living in another town with another man and her daughter. She died a few years later. I only found this out thanks to the detective work of a Rootschatter, who did a search on my 2 x g.uncle's daughter's Christian name and date of birth and found her with her mother.
So anything is possible.
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Hi Nieve,
If Holy Cross is at the bottom of Borough Road, St Helens then I think you will find it was demolished within the last couple of years.
Regards
John
That was Sacred Heart.
ellis2159
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Mary, Your suggestion is another avenue for me to explore! That will be a little job for tomorrow afternoon. I have often wondered if transcribers miss people out purely by accident. Nieve
St Helens Deceased site: search
Ellen Moran aged 41
Burial date 19/12/1903
Grave ref: StHelCem/20/476.
Regards ellis2159
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Condition Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation
Disability Where Born Original
census
image
~~~~~~~~
MORAN, Michael Head Married M 66 1815 Road Contractor
Ireland
MORAN, Bridget Wife Married F 56 1825
Ireland
MORAN, John Son Single M 28 1853 Genl Lab
St Helens
Lancashire
MORAN, Michael Son Single M 20 1861 Genl Lab
St Helens
Lancashire
MORAN, Matthew Son Single M 16 1865 Genl Lab
St Helens
Lancashire
MORAN, Annie Daughter Single F 14 1867
St Helens
Lancashire
MORAN, Ellen Rooney Daughter Married F 18 1863
St Helens
Lancashire
ROONEY, Patrick Son In Law Married M 26 1855 Genl Lab
Ireland
ROONEY, John Son Single M 1 1880
St Helens
Lancashire
~~~~~~~~
RG number:
RG11 Piece:
3739 Folio:
31 Page:
14
Registration District:
Prescot Sub District:
St Helens EnumerationDistrict:
Ecclesiastical Parish:
Civil Parish:
Sutton Municipal Borough:
Address:
110 Peasley X Lane, Sutton County:
Lancashire
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Hi Everbody. Thanks for your interest. I have spoken to both Prescot and St.Helens registry offices this afternoon .They both discounted Warrington. However, Prescot says he will come back to me when he has time to do a search and my cheque is in the post for St.Helens to do another search. I saw that deceased name on the St.Helens site and have cross checked with bmd. The name there was Ellen Phillips Moran, age 41. The age was right and I have tried to do quick check on Anc.com for 1891 and 1901 but no luck. I am now accepting that she may have left home and children for pastures new and perhaps he was called Phillips! If I sent for a death cert it would only actually show me who was the informant and address.
Back to the drawing board. Nieve
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Nieve,
Why did the Prescot and St. Helens registrars both discount Warrington?
Ellen was last seen alive on a census in St. Helens in 1881. The youngest child of the family was born 1885/1886 in St. Helens. By 1891, Patrick was in Haydock and calling himself a widower. Patrick seems to have moved to Haydock some time between 1885/1886 and 1891. If Ellen was dead by 1891, she could have as easily died in Haydock as in St. Helens.
I do hope you let us all know the answer to the puzzle when you have solved it.
Mary
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:'( :'(
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Nieve & Ellis 2159,
After reading Ellis 2159's cryptic post timed at 2055 today, I have modified the post I had made at 1915 today so that it reads as "Why did the Prescot and St. Helens registrars both discount Warrington?
Ellen was last seen alive on a census in St. Helens in 1881. The youngest child of the family was born 1885/1886 in St. Helens. By 1891, Patrick was in Haydock and calling himself a widower. Patrick seems to have moved to Haydock some time between 1885/1886 and 1891. If Ellen was dead by 1891, she could have as easily died in Haydock as in St. Helens".
You are already bearing in mind the burial which Elllis 2159 mentioned in his/her post timed at 1621 today.
As regards discrepancies between local registrars' records and GRO records, I have read that there are many but only have personal experience of one.
Mary
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Hello everyone,
I would wonder why Ellen would be buried as Moran rather than Rooney.
I checked 1901 and there is an Ellen Moran married to William Moran in St Helens. She is born Northwich.
There is a marriage on Free BMD for Ellen Phillips to a William Morean in Northwich.
I did mention Warrington in an earlier post as a possibility and I would agree with Mary that it seems odd that the registrars would discount that place but perhaps they don't know that the family were there in 1891.
best wishes
heywood
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Hi, I have just rang Warrington Registry office to be sure and they confirmed that Haydock was definitely St.Helens. NIeve.
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Ah well - that's why they said that ::)
I was going off the 1891 census information:
registration district Warrington: sub-district Ashton in Makerfield.
What do you think about the Ellen Phillips Moran death, Nieve? It doesn't look to be your Ellen does it?
I did have a look at censuses but there are too many Ellens born 1862ish St Helens to find one if she were living with someone under another surname.
heywood
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Hi, I have just rang Warrington Registry office to be sure and they confirmed that Haydock was definitely St.Helens. NIeve.
Have you tried: www sthelens-connect.net
incidently i have a vested interest in the Moran name and i live off MERTON BANK
Road. St Helens
Regards ellis2159
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Nieve,
According to GENUKI, Haydock came under Warrington Registration District from 1837 to 1934 and under Newton Registration District from 1834 to 1974 and has come under St. Helens Registration District since 1974.
Did the Warrington Register Office understand that you were enquiring about a death before 1974 when you phoned them or is it that the Haydock records which used to be held in Warrington are now held in St. Helens?
Mary
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Hi everyone,
Mary:-
Firstly, I have once again been in touch with Warrington. A different lady this time who was very nice. She still said St.Helens. However, she did a search for me for Ellen Rooney/Moran and soundtex from 1881 to 1894 - no result. So I await St.Helens to come back to me.
Ellis2159.
I hadn't but I have now tried St.Helens-connect.net. I read all the posts and I smiled when I saw what was the meaning of the expression 'Miss Keck'. My mum called it me and her granddaughters and I have now started to call my own granddaughter the name. In fact my daughter only yesterday asked why I said it. I didn't know the meaning then but I do now ! I won't tell her, she might be upset/annoyed/amused -I never can tell.
Heywood.
Thanks for your input.
Yes, I agree. The Ellen Phillips Moran is a non-starter but you do tend to clutch at straws but it is still very encouraging to have other people's input. Nieve.
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Hi Nieve,
Yes we do clutch at straws and don't want to give up :D
I don't think I think ( ???) that she was in an institution really but that was one of my straws for Ellen and may be another route at some time.
Earlier you said that had there been anything untoward then your grandma would have known from the pavement gossip. If this were so, you would have thought that they would have known if she ran off with the local romeo too. Going off my mother- it would have been referred to in stage whispers ;D
My mother never revealed her family secret- we only discovered after her death - so people do keep secrets, especially if they affected status or morals.
good luck with St Helens.
heywood
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My mother was the same. I didn't even know that her eldest (living) sister had run off with a married man until I was in my 50s and it was only a few months before my mother died, when out of the blue she decided to tell me what she knew, how she'd find an address on blotting paper ??? of where my aunt had been sending things to the married man so they could set up house together. How she told her mother after my aunt left and how her mother (my gran) rushed off to find the couple in Scotland and stayed with relatives up there, before she confronted them.
Lizzie
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Hi everyone. Well, I have just had a reply from St.Helens Register Office and they have been unable to trace any records that relate to my 'lady'. I have to perhaps now accept that she must have 'done a runner' and become a 'common law wife'. Was the grass greener? Did she keep an eye on her children from afar and did she know that her eldest son become another casualty of W.W.1. Thanking you all for your help and input. Nieve.
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Hi
The other thing to do is to search the 1891 census on Ancestry, just putting in her first name, no surname, year of birth (she was apparently only 15 when she married according to her age on the 1881 census and place of birth.
I did a quick search, putting in a year of birth as 1862 +/- 5 years. If you then exclude all the ones who have children living with them, who would have been born too early for Ellen, or whilst she was with her husband, you will probably end up with quite a list, but you could pick out the ones you think most positive, if supposedly married check on FreeBMD for a marriage from about 1875 to 1891, and if there is no apparent marriage follow them up on the 1901 census.
For instance, the first interesting one I found was called Ellen Balfe, born St. Helens about 1860, boarding with her husband Thomas Balfe, who was born in Dublin, Ireland. No children shown. I then went to FreeBMD to see if there was a marriage to rule out your Ellen and there was in 1886, Thomas Balfe and Ellen Elliott.
It is a time consuming exercise, but you may turn up something like I did with my 2 x g.aunt who was in a different town living with another man and posing as his wife and using his name, even though her own husband was alive and living with his wife's sister's family. My search was made easier by another Rootschatter who found the marriage of the daughter of my 2 x g.aunt and uncle and then found her on the census with this "other" family.
Lizzie
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Hi LIzzieW. That is quite an idea and it could just pay off. Unfortunatley, my Anc. subscription expired last week and I am just dithering whether to try FindMyPast or Anc. again. I have been looking at various views from other Rootschatters and I will make up my mind after Christmas when I have more time to concentrate [and my visitors have gone home]. All the best to you, Nieve.
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Hi Nieve
The difference between FindMyPast and Ancestry for this type of search is that for FindMyPast, you will have to view each individual transcription to see whether the person has children of an age that excludes your Ellen, whilst on Ancestry, you can just hover over where it shows 1891 census (for instance) and you will be able to see the transcription without having to open it. That will save a lot of time, if you are searching through 100s of listings.
Happy Christmas and good hunting.
Lizzie
ps. Overall, I prefer FindMyPast but subscribe to both as each has its plus points.
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Hi Lizzie. Well I have done as you suggested. I went through 1891 census listing all the Ellens born in St.Helens and Prescot. Had quite a long list. Then I double checked all marriages, the 1881 and the 1901 census. Everyone was accounted for but no Ellen Rooney. What a fantastic way to pass time on whilst snowed in!!! I have now given up, but I still find it so interesting tracking people's lives over 20 years. Once a life of drudgery always a life of drudgery
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Hi Nieve
Well at least you tried.
Happy New Year
Lizzie
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Hi Nieve,
Yes we do clutch at straws and don't want to give up :D
I don't think I think ( ???) that she was in an institution really but that was one of my straws for Ellen and may be another route at some time.
Earlier you said that had there been anything untoward then your grandma would have known from the pavement gossip. If this were so, you would have thought that they would have known if she ran off with the local romeo too. Going off my mother- it would have been referred to in stage whispers ;D
My mother never revealed her family secret- we only discovered after her death - so people do keep secrets, especially if they affected status or morals.
good luck with St Helens.
heywood
There was an institution named HAYDOCK LODGE ASHTON IN MAKERFIELD
just google for it.
ellis2159
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Hi Ellis 2159. Thank you for your interest and mentioning this Haydock Lodge. I spent a good hour wading through and I think my best bet is to put a letter together to St.Helens Local History and Archives Library as they seem to hold records. Nieve
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It looks like Lancashire Records Office (Preston) hold lots of records for this institution too. Some are specific to the individual and some are more general e.g. lists of patients in numerous years.
See
[url]http://archivecat.lancashire.gov.uk/dserve/dserve.exe?dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Overview.tcl&dsqSearch=((text)='haydock%20lodge')&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqPos=0&PF=Yes/[url]
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Hi neive
Hope you are lucky with this,i will still keep a look out for you here in
St Helens.
Regards ellis2159
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Thanks Northern Rose, I will look into this as well. it's all worth a try. NIeve.
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Well everybody, just a quick update on the elusive Ellen.
Haydock Lodge:- Lancashire Records Office referred me to St.Helens Local History & Archives Library and they have replied stating that they have not been able to find a death from the records available, or any mention of her in the registers that they hold.
They suggested that I contact St.Helens Townships Family History Society who may do research for a fee. I feel reluctant to do this as I find it hard to justify spending any more money/time on this lady. I feel that Rootschatters have done perhaps as good a search as they would do. I may be wrong but 'whatever'. Nieve.
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Hello, Just been reading your posts on Ellen Rooney. Have you ever tried going to the Gamble central library. I had the same problem with my GGrandfather, so went to look at records there and discovered he was killed in a pit accident. So you could give it a go who knows what you might find.
Do you know what part of Ireland she was from? Kind Regards caroleoh
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Hi Carole oh,
I'm sorry not to have answered before but I'm just catching up! Firstly I don't live in the St.Helens area but I wrote to the Local History Archives at the Gamble Building and they kindly did a search but could find no trace. Incidentally, Ellen was born in St.Helens, her parents were Irish born. Thank you for your interest. Nieve
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Hi Nieve I do live in St Helens, can you tell me all you know about Ellen i.e date of birth etc.
Have you tried looking in the records for Prescot as years ago that was the main reg district.
i would be willing to look up any records for you.T here is also a good website you could look at just type in Lancashire opc, if you know what district of St Helens she was born that site could be useful but I must stress it does'nt cover it all ,but worth a try.
Please let me know if you need my help. Kind Regards caroleoh
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Hello again Nieve,
Just been looking through your earlier posts, I found the record of marriage for Patrick and Ellen, Prescot, June 1878.
Could'nt find death for Ellen but could have found a burial for Patrick.
I looked up the St Helens cemetery records and found an entry for a Patrick Rooney 14/ 10/ 1922 this Patrick was 70 yrs , but what I found interesting was ,there are 3 people who share the grave who were called Moran.
There was also a Thomas Rooney died aged only 18yrs in 1903 . The grave ref is section 20, grave no 65. Hope this helps caroleoh
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Hi Carole oh. Thank you for your messages I have found that grave site before. What a good site!! I don't know who the Corbetts were but the rest could be family, because from all the census details Patrick must have always been on good terms with the Morans. In the past I have been in touch with Haydock Lodge, Prescot, St.Helens, Haydock and Warrington Registry Offices, but no luck. If you fancy 'having a go' you are more than welcome and I would be very grateful. Our Ellen Moran was born in 1861 in St.Helens, marrying Patrick 5.5.1878 at Holy Cross Church. They had 4 children:- John, Ellen, Thomas, Patrick Joseph, all on the 1891 census, but it is there that Patrick calls himself a 'widow'. I have looked under both maiden and married name so where she got to is anybody's guess. Nieve.
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Hi Nieve, I will have a nosy round for you I know Holy Cross church very well, It's the family church of my husbands family , my husband attended Holy Cross school, so I will let you know if I find anything. Best Wishes caroleoh
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Thanks a bunch - look forward to hearing from you. Nieve.
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Hi Neive ,Just a quick question, have you ever wondered did Ellen die in child birth? it's possible she did has her youngest was born1866, it could be the reason for her death . Dying during child birth was very common then.
Also found a ref for a death record for a Ellen Rooney, 1866, aged 28yrs, so give or take a year that could be right.
The only thing is it was in the reg distict of West Derby which is a part of liverpool,only a few miles from St Helens. Kind Regards caroleoh
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Hi Carole oh, Yes I saw that! Another £7 wasted. She was the wife of Bernard Moran and lived at 109 Northumberland Terrace, Everton. Back to the drawing board! Thanks Nieve
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Hi Nieve,
Try as I might I can't seem to find a death record for Ellen.have you tried the General record office in Southport,even if Ellen did'nt die in this county they should have a death record for her there.
If you have'nt already done so give them a try if you can give them a rough idea of when you think she died and where, they may be able to help.
I believe all Holy Cross church records are now held at the Liverpool record office, have you tried there. When I have time I will visit the main library in St Helens just to make sure they have any records for Holy Cross.
There must be a death record for Ellen somewhere she was a real person after all. Kind Regards carole oh
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Hello Nieve and Carole,
I just saw this death Ellen Rourny 30 yrs died 1892 Prescot Vol 8b pg 419.
I can't see any Rournys in 1891 but if it was Ellen where is she in 1891 anyway?
It could be a corruption of several names I suppose.
best wishes
heywood
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Hi Nieve , That's very possible, just recently I couldnt find a birth cert I was looking for, like you I knew she existed and I also tried everywhere. The person in question was a Ellen O'Keefe, after a lot of searching I spotted an entry for a Ellen Kieve so decided to send for the cert, it turned out to be the right one, so I would go for it if I were you. They were always getting names wrong in those days. Let me know how it goes , Best Wishes caroleoh
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Hi Carole oh and heywood. Thanks for your messages/interest. Yes. this is worth a go! I have applied to Southport [before the price goes up ] for this certificate.
Will keep you informed. Nieve.
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fingers crossed ;)
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GOOD LUCK NIEVE, KEEP ME POSTED.
CAROLEOH
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Hi everyone. Well I have this death certificate!!! This 'lady' died on 18.8.1892. Name - Ellen Rooney - the name Rooney was crossed out and was replaced with Rourny. She was 30. a housekeeper/domestic and died of Phthisis [TB]. The place of death was Sutton Road, Rainhill R.S.D. Whatever that means. In attendance was John Rourny [brother] of Sutton Road, Rainhill. I have spent the last 2 hours trying to find him/them on any census, neither can I find any grave for her under either name. The only name that rings true is the doctor who certified:- Robert Tyrer M.R.C.S.E. and he lived at Church Villas in Rainhill in 1891. Was this address Rainhill Hospital or a private address? I think that this cert. is a fabrication on the part of the 'brother'! Even the name doesn't ring true. Come on Carole oh and heywood, what's your verdict?
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Hi Nieve,
What a mystery ??? That is the only 'Rourny' in BMDs and none in census so presumably a mistranscription/misinterpretation of some kind.
Sutton Road doesn't seem to be the address of the hospital.
I haven't read all of this thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,102252.0.html
but I have just seen that it says the records of the hospital are available to search in Liverpool. It also says that the 'mental' hospital part was Eccleston - I have had a quick look for Ellen .. but nothing.
I suppose also that the name may be a corruption of something like 'Rourke' but I think we are clutching at straws. As I wrote this , I thought I would check and 1891 has a John Rourke with a sister... Mary in 1891 but she is wrong age anyway.
I don't know what to think. If you could find a funeral but ... :-\
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Hi Nieve, I have never heard of Sutton rd Rainhill and I only live 10 mins or so from Rainhill.
There is however a Sutton Heath Rd that runs off Rainhill rd, maybe it could be that. Rainhill Mental Hosp no longer exists, well part of it does but its just a clinic , the majority of the hospital; was knocked down and is now a housing estate.
There is a row of large houses that I believe were Doctors houses, the address of the doctor you gave rang a bell I will check it for you.
Have you ever considered Ellen could have been buried in a catholic church yard? as you say it's a mystery do you think she died in Rainhill hosp, if so perhaps her family tried to hide the fact she died in a mental institiuon. I'will be in touch when I have checked that address out Best Wishes caroleoh
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Hi Carole,
I had looked for Sutton Road on 1881 census and it was there - still is on map- I have googled it and tried to send a link but it just goes to the general site.
Can you think of any Catholic churches nearby where this Ellen may have been buried from?
heywood
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Nearest RC church probably St Austins, Heath Street Thatto Heath.
RSD = Rural Sanitary District similar to Borough Council
Rainhill Asylum wasnt that bad as Mental Hospitals go, there is a story on this site
http://www.gentgoddard.co.uk/index.php/william-gent-1879-1949
And heres somewhere that tells you how to obtain records...
http://www.mersey-gateway.org/server.php?show=ConNarrative.186&chapterId=1011
Hope it helps ;)
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Hi,
Another RC Church in Rainhill is St Bart's in Warrington Road close to Rainhill Stoops.
Regards
John
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Also the great Irish church then was Sacred Heart on Borough Road, its gone now but records
must still be around, in fact Im sure someone on here has all these records, ?Willowtree?
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Try St Annes and Blessed Dominic Catholic Parish
Church Monastry lane Sutton St Helens.
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Hi Nieve, Not had chance to check out the doctor address yet, but apparently Sutton Rd is'nt in Rainhill ,it actually runs along side Peasley cross Rd. Which we have always referred to that area as Peasley Cross.
There was a catholic church in Peasley cross called St Josephs unfortunately no longer there.
Also only about a mile down the road from there is Holy Cross which is still there.
Perhaps if you asked St Helens Library of any possible burials there they could tell you.
I know St Austins very well there is no graveyard there and Sacred Heart is also unlikely . St Barts at Rainhill, could have had one in the past but i'm not very well informed on that particular church. Be in touch when I have checked that address for you. Best Wishes Caroleoh
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Hi everybody, thank you all for interest and input. How easy is it to find out whether Sutton Road, Rainhill was a hospital or a private address? If it was just a private address then Ellen died in her own little bed, but if it was a hospital then there may be records. Next point is:- The name Rooney was crossed out and corrected. Obviously John instructed the registrar. I think, by the absence of records, that he made that name up in a hurry/panic/or the registrar misheard him. Either way, it looks a little fishy! Next:- Where was she buried. The St.Helens grave site has no records of her and I can't see her being buried any further afield. If she was buried in any Catholic Church graveyard then wouldn't it still be listed in the St.Helens grave site? My next plan is, as Carole oh suggested, is to write to St.Helens library to see if they have any info. about Ellen Rourny. Thank you Heywood - I have read the topic you mentioned. Carole oh - just reading your last message. You mentioned that Sutton Road runs along side of Peasley Cross Lane. In the 1881 census they all lived at 110 Peasley Cross Lane, which means that she was, if it is her, familiar with the area. To be continued.........Nieve.
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Hi Nieve,
Dont worry too much about the name Rooney being misspelt, was her brother or Ellen born in Ireland? if so the dialect was very hard to understand so the person writing out the record often could'nt understand what was said so put down what they thought to be correct. I think I mentioned the same thing happened to me when I was looking for the birth of my husbands GGrandma her name was O'Keefe but she was actual Kieve on her birth cert.
Secondly Rainhill Hosp was never on Sutton Rd, it actually ran down Rainhill Rd for as long as I can remember I was brought up 5 minutes away from the hosp.
What makes you think she died in Rainhill Hosp? there was St Helens Hospital in Peasley Cross Rd for many years there is a modern hospital on the same sight now, as Ellen lived in Peasley Cross it could have been there.
Also the catholic church St Josephs must have had a grave yard then, so obviously when it was demolished the bodies would have been reburied.
If she died in the St Helens District there must be a record of her burial somewhere, have you tried Lancashire Records they are quite helpful you will find them on the internet. There is another very old church at Sutton down the road from Peasley Cross called St Nicholas but unfortunately it is C.OF E I'll be in touch Best Wishes Caroleoh
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Nieve
Sorry to throw a spanner in the works, but wouldn't Ellen Rooney's brother have been called John Moran. He wouldn't have the same name as her married name would he?
Lizzie
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never thought of that
caroleoh
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Forgot to mention Nieve there is a family history society in St Helens that could help. contactus.sthelenstownshipsfhs.org.uk caroleo
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Hi everyone. Let me just stand back and look again because I think the water has become a little bit muddied! Where did Ellen get to in 1886? Don't know, just presumed she had 'done a runner' never to be seen again and probably living over the brush! Then along came Ellen Rourny!!! Could this be her? Can we just suppose she was living with John ? and then she became poorly and died. Yes, if it was her brother he would have called himself Moran, so I don't think he was. If she was living with someone she would have taken his name for appearance sake. As she was born in St.Helens I don't think she would have had much of an Irish accent. I think that when John had to face the registrar, perhaps he panicked. and thought that he had better give her true name. Perhaps he had an Irish twang. Who knows? Anyway I am following Carole oh's advice and I am going to write to the St.Helens Family History Society to see if they solve this mystery, because there is still the missing grave. Or do I just want her to be my great grandmother? To be continued........ Nieve.
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Hi Nieve,
I paid a visit to St Helens Library today and lo and behold there was a Sutton Rd InRainhill after all. Although the lady could'nt give me an exact location on the map we do know where abouts it was as it was in the indexs.
I also mentioned you could'nt find where Ellen had been buried ,the lady said she could have died in Whiston Hosp just up the road from Rainhill that Hosp comes under Prescot borough where there is apparently a cemetery but in the Protestant church. There is however 2 very old churches in the Prescot diocese both catholic, not sure of the name of the one in the centre of Prescot but the other is Our LadiesRC Church Portico Lane, Prescot. The lady also said Whiston Hospital was also a workhouse so if she was'nt well they would have taken her there.
Also regarding Church Villas , although again not sure of exact location but in the index's it was near a church and school so we have a good idea of the location. I have got photo copies of both locations if you would like them send me your address and I will forward them onto you as unfortunately I dont have a printer or a scanner at the moment.
You could also try writing to Prescot library where they have quite a few records, also have you tried Prescot reg office for a death cert. The address of the Library is Kemble St , Prescot also same address for reg office. Hope you find her . Best Wishes Caroleoh, let me know if there is anything I can do to help
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Hi,
Prescot Library is High Street, Prescot, Merseyside, L34 3LD 0151 426 6449
Prescot Registrar is also High Street Prescot - same address phone no 0151 443 5210
Library not been in Kemble Street for 30+ years.
Regards
John
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Sorry John ,my mistake .
Caroleoh
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Hi Carole oh and Jvy 20. Once again thank you for your input, interest and kindness. My next plan is to contact Prescot Library/Registrar next week when I have more time. If that fails I will contact the St.Helens FHS. Carol oh - thank you for your offer of the photographs, I will bear them in mind now I know that there is some photographic history to 'put more meat on the bones' . To be continued......Nieve.
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Ellen Rooney Moran was my great grandmother. I have little information about her only that she married my great grandfather Jack Moran and had 3 children, Maggie, John and Anne. Anne died shortly after birth of consumption as did her mother Ellen also called (Nellie). Jack Moran left his 2 chikdren with his parents Thomas and Anne Higgins Moran and immigrated to Midland, Pennsylvania, USA. My grandmother Margaret Moran joined her father in the US years later.
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Hello Dana and welcome to Rootschat :)
It is quite a few years since nieve started this thread. If email notifications are still possible, you may get a response.
Good luck
Heywood