RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: *bunty* on Thursday 03 December 09 13:03 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I am descended from one of the illegitimate children of Athalia Parrish of Chirk, Denbighshire, Wales. I was spurred to join Rootschat after the airing of the Coming Home episode on John Prescott, who is also descended from the same woman (although he is from the first son John, and I am from the second son Charles). I wonder how many Parrish family members are out there! My lot moved from Chirk to Staffordshire to Durham before settling in West Yorkshire. I look forward to joining in discussions.
PS: my information differs a little from that information presented in the documentary :/
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Hi Bunty and Welcome :)
I have a fair bit of information on the family. I'm decended from Caroline, Athalia's sister and have been researching the family for 9 years.
Caroline and her husband, John Stokes, moved to Stafordshire in 1848/9 just after their marriage but later returned to Chirk. Quite a few of the Stokes family settled around Normanton.
Here's something on the Co Durham end:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,395157.0.html
There are also a few threads on the Denbighshire board - relatives in Australia, etc. asking for info.
I think it is best that we stick to the facts of our family history rather than talk about the programme.
What info do you need?
Gadget
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Are you descended from James: (Sorry - just seen that you are descended from Charles - in Pontefract on the later census :))
1901
John Street, Eldon, Auckland St Andrew, Durham
RG13/4645/140/31
Parrish
James, 48, coal miner (Hewer) b. Wales, Chirk
Hannah, wife, 42, b. Cheshire, Macclesfield
Sam, 24, coal miner (hewer), Lancashire, Failsworth Lane, Manchester
Hannah, 12, b. Durham, Eldon
Thelia, 9, b. -do-
Rosa, 3, b. Lancashire, Moston, Manchester
Gadget
Added - also some info here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,334992.0.html
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Welcome to RootsChat from me too Bunty !! :) :)
What info do you need?
With regard to info, I wondered if the following might help you Gadget :
http://www.rootschat.com/links/07lw/
Kind regards,
Pels.
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Thanks for that, Pels :)
It looks as if Bunty knows quite a lot already.
Gadget
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I do indeed know a fair bit about the family, although not as much as I would like as I have only been researching for three years. I am interested in the social history surrounding the Parrishes and their movements far and wide from Chirk. I don't have a lot of information post-1911 and I am interested in tracing the family forward from the 1911 census. I am very interested in the coal mines of Chirk, being a mining engineer myself (although at the time I studied mining I didn't realise my ancestors had such a long connections with mining).
One of the brickwalls I have yet to crack is that of James Par(r)ish b 1829, brother to Athalia and son of Thomas and Ann Par(r)ish. He is missing (well I can't find him ;)) in the 1851, 1861 and 1881 census and dies in the Union Workhouse in Barnsley in 1886. In 1871 he is single and living with his brother Jacob and his family in Woolley, YKS.
I didn't intend to discuss in any detail the Coming Home programme because I haven't actually seen it as I live in Australia - my Parrishes left Pontefract for New Zealand in the 1960s. All I know is it exists because of messages sent by some of my Parrish cousins in the UK and that it was suggested Athalia's father was the father of her illegitimate children. What I will say is I have spent many long hours pondering who my great great grandfather's father was. What I have discovered is that one of the illegitimate sons of Athalia - James - was not registered under the name Parrish, but under the name James Jones, son of Richard Jones and Athalia Jones. I suspect Richard was Athalia's next door neighbour. James was always known as a Parrish though.
So, really just wanting to touch base with other Parrish researchers, share information and insight and see if there is anything else I can learn about the family :).
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Hi Bunty
Quite a few issues raised there :)
Post-1911 research is difficult to talk about on here because of the possibility of living people being mentioned and various sensitivities. A few years ago, a cousin and I followed up the descendants of Caroline Parish's daughter Elizabeth Stokes and her husband Henry Roberts. I would say that those living were fairly representative of the population at large in regard to occupation, education, etc. - with, maybe, more university degrees and higher degrees. They had dispersed fairly widely - Canada, Australia and throughout the UK. This was just one line.
I have mainly concentrated on Caroline and her descendants but have ventured into the Durham Parishes because of their obviously close ties with my Chirk family, even into the early 1900s. I've also gone back to Thomas and his ancestors who I've managed to trace back to Madeley - so they were originally English rather than Welsh! My father told me that they had been pit sinkers in Shropshire/Staffordshire who had moved to Chirk in 18th century.
Re Atheliah's son James Parish/Jones, b. 1850 - very interesting information and puts a different slant on things! A Jones family were living next to them in Black Park on the 1851 - HO107/1993/804/8 I assume the Richard Jones would be the son, aged 19 rather than the father aged 54. James is the one I have quoted from the 1901 in Co. Durham.
Re the other James Parish b.c. 1829. The problem here is that there were two both b.c. 1829 - one the son of John and Elizabeth (a) and one the son of Thomas and Ann (b). (i.e. cousins)
(a ) is still at home in Chirk with his parents in 1851 and with wife Mary in 1861 onwards.
(b) is possibly at The Lodge, Chirk in 1851 - a groom to the Ward family. (Thomas Ward ownd Black Prk colliery at the time) It says b. Llangollen but I wonder about the Llangollen birthplace as I don't see him before or afterwards as this. He is, as you say, with Jacob and Harriet in 1871 in Yorkshire. Jacob was with my 2 xgreat grandparents in Willenhall in 1851 but there is no sign of James so the Lodge one looks a strong poss. Many of the 1861 pieces are missing/destroyed and James could be on one of these.
Regards
Gadget
Added - I assume you're familiar with Neville Hurdsman's A History of the Parish of Chirk and a later one about St Martins - mainly pre 20th century but a fair bit on the coal mines.
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Thanks for your response Gadget :). I had not heard of Neville Hurdsman's A History of the Parish of Chirk until a few weeks back. I have ordered the book and then oddly enough it has come up here. I am pretty keen to read it, if anything to gauge how life was for my ancestors.
I have toyed with the idea that James Par(rish) was a groomsman at the Lodge in the 1851 census. It still doesn't sit right with me, given that all Parrish men I have ever come across were coal miners (including my own grandfather). On later census records James is a coal miner. Still, I can't rule out that for some time he may have been a groomsman. I know the other James (John and Mary's son) went on to marry Ann as you mentioned so this isn't my James. I actually located each Par(r)ish sibling of Athalia's on the 1861 census and then went through the census records for that location, page by page, hoping to find James as a boarder living in the same town as one of his siblings. No luck there, so perhaps he is on missing records.
I too have delved into the Durham line, mostly because my lot were in Durham briefly although mine left for West Yorkshire. I have been as comprehensive as I can with all Parrish lines because I really was curious to see how everyone had faired by 1911. My lot were incredibly poor and the family was split and living in two different workhouses in 1911. I must say it was quite sad to see my grandad as a 4 year old living apart from his mother. Such a hard life.
Well, I have waxed on long enough. Off to bury my nose in family history again ;).
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Hi Bunty
Quite a few issues raised there :)
Post-1911 research is difficult to talk about on here because of the possibility of living people being mentioned and various sensitivities. A few years ago, a cousin and I followed up the descendants of Caroline Parish's daughter Elizabeth Stokes and her husband Henry Roberts. I would say that those living were fairly representative of the population at large in regard to occupation, education, etc. - with, maybe, more university degrees and higher degrees. They had dispersed fairly widely - Canada, Australia and throughout the UK. This was just one line.
I have mainly concentrated on Caroline and her descendants but have ventured into the Durham Parishes because of their obviously close ties with my Chirk family, even into the early 1900s. I've also gone back to Thomas and his ancestors who I've managed to trace back to Madeley - so they were originally English rather than Welsh! My father told me that they had been pit sinkers in Shropshire/Staffordshire who had moved to Chirk in 18th century.
Re Atheliah's son James Parish/Jones, b. 1850 - very interesting information and puts a different slant on things! A Jones family were living next to them in Black Park on the 1851 - HO107/1993/804/8 I assume the Richard Jones would be the son, aged 19 rather than the father aged 54. James is the one I have quoted from the 1901 in Co. Durham.
Re the other James Parish b.c. 1829. The problem here is that there were two both b.c. 1829 - one the son of John and Elizabeth (a) and one the son of Thomas and Ann (b). (i.e. cousins)
(a ) is still at home in Chirk with his parents in 1851 and with wife Mary in 1861 onwards.
(b) is possibly at The Lodge, Chirk in 1851 - a groom to the Ward family. (Thomas Ward ownd Black Prk colliery at the time) It says b. Llangollen but I wonder about the Llangollen birthplace as I don't see him before or afterwards as this. He is, as you say, with Jacob and Harriet in 1871 in Yorkshire. Jacob was with my 2 xgreat grandparents in Willenhall in 1851 but there is no sign of James so the Lodge one looks a strong poss. Many of the 1861 pieces are missing/destroyed and James could be on one of these.
Regards
Gadget
Added - I assume you're familiar with Neville Hurdsman's A History of the Parish of Chirk and a later one about St Martins - mainly pre 20th century but a fair bit on the coal mines.
Hello Bridget :) If it helps the James Parish born 1829 who married Mary Hughes Ruabon 1858 was the son of John Parish :(
Paul.
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Thanks ever so , Paul. You've given me lots of info on this family :)
The problem is that there were two James Par(r)ish - one the son of Thomas and Ann and one (the one you mention) , son of John and Elizabeth. All of them seemed to have large families and, whereas they were adventurous with the girl's names, they were pretty boring when it came to the sons!
The James, son of Thomas and Ann seems to disappear for 20 years - the only one that looks promising is the one at The Lodge in 1851. As Thomas Ward owned Black Park colliery, this James might have been groom for a while and then become a coal miner but there's no way of proving it one way or another.
My line went to Willenhall and then returned to Chirk. Others moved to Durham, Staffs, Yorkshire, etc.
Did Priscilla Parrish (b.c. 1818) marry David Jones circa 1838-9? I don't see it on Freebmd. Ever so grateful if you can find this marriage.
Gadget
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Reason that I ask this is that there is a Priscilla Jones, aged 2 on the 1841 (HO107/1399/1/8/7 ) living seemingly on her own between the Parrish family and the Richard Jones family.
I've found a baptism for Priscilla in 1839, d/o David and Priscilla Jones. I'm not sure what happened to Thomas's daughter, Priscilla (b. 1818), and wondered if this was a daughter. They're not on the 1841/51 so far. I've only just started searching for them. I've not checked burials yet.
In 1851, this might well be the young Priscilla - a visitor, aged 12, born Chirk : HO107/2503/713/21
Gadget
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Gadget, if I might be of help - Priscilla Parish died 'on the childbed' in 1839 in the presence of her 'husband' David Jones (I have her death certificate, just not handy). The child survived, named Priscilla Jones. It appears David did not keep her :(. I have not been able to find the marriage of Priscilla and David on freeBMD.
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An - thank you, Bunty. So she was really living with the Parrish family on the 1841 then. I was going to check the burial records today :)
So, no bmd marriage record, maybe Paul might find a marriage (poss pre-1837) in the Church records. Otherwise, they weren't married - odd though that she's using his name at death.
I assume you have the births to Elizabeth and Susannah that Paul found for me?
Gadget
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I have an illeg son John for Elizabeth but nothing for Susannah. I am curious! :o
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Susannah was a servant in King Street, Willenhall in 1851, as you know - most likely she went with Caroline and John Stokes.
Paul found this in the Chirk Parish records:
Born Nov 13 Baptised Dec 5 1854. William s/o Susannah Parish. Lower Barracks. Spinster.
As far as I can make out, John and Caroline didn't return to the area until 1860-61 - on census in St Martins (Chirk Bank) in 1861 but all children b. Willenhall, so Susannah must have returned home between 1851 and 1854.
Gadget
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I am out for the day now but before I go, here's a small photo of Elizabeth Stokes, my great grandmother, the daughter of Caroline Parish and John Stokes.
Gadget
PS -and for Paul, who likes collecting interesting names:
Athaliah was Queen of Judah from 842-836 BC. She was the daughter of King Ahab and Queen Jezebel of the northern kingdom of Israel. She also was the wife of King Jehoram of Judah, and the mother of King Ahaziah.
http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/p8.htm
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Found the burial of Priscilla Jones nee Par(r)ish:
Chirk 13 April 1839, aged 21. Abode - Pontyblew
Priscilla, her daughter was baptised on 11th April :'(
Gadget
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The only Parish marriages I could see pre-1837.
1813. John Davies - Anne Parrish.
1814. John Parish - Mary Jones.
1815. Thomas Collins - Mary Parish.
1820. John Davies - Sarah Parish.
1824. William Parish - Susannah Davies.
1824. John Parish - Elizabeth Roberts.
I couldn't see anything for Priscilla and David :(
Paul.
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Thank you so much,Paul :-*
The Pontyblew residence makes me wonder about Ruabon or St Martins but it's needle and haystacks :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
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It may be that they were never married anyway. Remember Athalia had one son's birth registered as James Jones, naming the parents as Richard Jones and Athalia Jones (formerly Parrish). They never married, and James reverted back to being James Parrish. Perhaps this was the case with David and Priscilla? The fact that he did not keep the child *may* indicate he acknowledged it as his own but once Priscilla died, he did not take responsibility for it. Of course a working father couldn't exactly look after a young baby anyway. Very sad.
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It is very sad, Bunty :-\ But, although I can accept Jones as being used as the surname of the child, I've not seen an instance in Chirk of the 'wife' taking a married name unless she was married - just wondering if there was a marriage in Ruabon/St Martins, the neighbouring parishes :-\
Have you found anything further on Susannah - beyond 1854?
Added - had a look at Ruabon and they're not there so maybe it was a common law. Surprising in Chirk as they knew everyone :-\
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As far as I can tell Susannah married Henry Smith in 1856 (not verified, no cert ordered). If this is the right Susannah they went on to have four children together. I am not sure what happened to Henry (probably died) but Susannah seems to remarry Benjamin Jones abt 1869. See the 1861 Wales census RG9/1880/86/12 and 1871 Wales census RG10/2784/33/12. In the 1871 census it shows the 'Smith' children living with their mum and new stepfather. Don't have a death for Susannah but I haven't searched that hard ;).
PS: Got my copy of the John Prescott doco today from a UK descendant of Athalia Parrish (he is from James Jones/Parrish). Can't wait to watch it!
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I'd forgotten that entry.
Now I remember them from the 1871 when I was chasing up James Parrish. Her age is a few years out.
(I didn't find a marriage ref for either partners though but, like you, I've not searched extensively)
Gadget
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I'd thought that Benjamin might have been a brother to William (Athaliah's husband) as they had a son, Benjamin, which would make James Parrish Benjamin Jones's step nephew rather than Susanna Jones's.
I think we need more proof before we say that that is definitely our Susannah.
I think I'll ask Paul to check on baptisms of those Smith children.
Gadget
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Good idea Gadget. A quick check of baptisms of the Smiths would help. Smith isn't a common name in the area so we should be ok there. I too felt Benjamin was brother to William. But again, not proof at this stage.
PS: Have now watched the the John Prescott doco and need more evidence and information. Hmmmm.
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Yep, Bunty. That was my view :)
Susannah Parrish, alias Smith and Jones does have a ring to it though, doesn't it ;D
It's an amazing family!
Do you have all of my Caroline's children and marriages, etc.?
PS - I was born and grew up in Chirk and can't recall any Smith families!
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I have the following children and marriages although not the exact dates:
Ann Stokes = George Williams
Martha Stokes = ?
Elizabeth Stokes = Henry Roberts
James Stokes = ?
William Stokes = ?
Louisa Stokes = ?
Caroline Stokes = ?
Susan Stokes = ?
Mary Ellen Stokes = Richard Alexander Roberts
Not such good coverage is it? LOL
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Had to go delving into gedcoms ;D
Ann b. 1849, m. 1867 George Williams
Martha- b & d. . 1851
Elizabeth b. 1853 - 1930 m. Henry Roberts Dec 25 1873 (Elizabeth had an illegitimate son, Thomas Parrish Stokes in 1872 who was brought up by Caroline and John)
James b. 1856 m. Catherine Evans
William b. 1860 m. 1886 Sarah Ann Powell
Louisa Stokes b. 1862 did not marry up to 1901 - must check on the 1911 for her
Caroline b. 1864 m 1884. Seth Twigg
Susanna b. 1868 m 1888 George Williams
Mary Ellen b. 1870 m 1888 Richard Alexander Roberts
All except the last four were b. Willenhall.
Got most of their children and grandchildren as well. I once printed this tree off for a cousin and it was about 18 feet wide!
Gadget
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Just realised that I've only followed up Elizabeth and Henry on the 1911. I must go check up the others now I've got a sub and not credits!
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Hello, just wanted to pop in and say hello to the Parrishes!
My husband is from the Durham line, his ancestor Isaac Parrish from Chirk, born 1824, brother of Athalia.
I believe there are a lot more relatives, especially in and around the mining towns of Durham
We too watched the documentary with interest!
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Hi arroli - welcome to Rootschat :)
Which of Isaac's children is he descended from?
It looks like I've got lots of kin up here :)
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
his line is from Susannah Parrish born 1857...unknown father...
Great Grandfather Allen Parrish born 1864
Yes lots of Parrishes, we have made contact with several, UK, US, NZ, Spain....
Arroli
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This Susannah:
1861
39 Brandon Colliery
RG9/3736/72/19
Parrish
Isaac, 36, coal miner, b. Denbigh, Wales
Elizabeth, 35, b. Durham Birtley
Margaret Ann, 15, -do-
Thomas, 13, coal putter,
Susannah, 3, b. Brancepeth
Sarah, 1, -do-
Not quite sure what you mean about the unknown father and the Allan b. 1864 though. Was Allan the son of Susannah and an unknown person - ? birthdate :-\
Gadget
Added - think you might mean Allen Parrish March q, 1875, Durham
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HI Gadget
yes that is the correct family...
sorry, should have said hubby's Great Grandfather was Allen Parrish, illegitimate son of Susannah Parrish...no father given on birth certificate!
Arroli
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I think everyone would agree, this has been a fascinating thread about the Parrish family !!
Pels. :)
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Just an update, which I think the whole 'family' will be interested in. I've just heard that cousin John is to be made a Peer in the Dissolution Honours List*:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8711821.stm
That means that dear old 3 X grt Grandad , Thomas Par(r)ish, the coal miner, has at least two descendants who made it to the Lords 8) 8) 8) 8)
Gadget
* well, a little bird told me earlier but I didn't want to presuppose :-X :-X :-X
** one on each side ;D ;D
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That means that dear old 3 X grt Grandad , Thomas Par(r)ish, the coal miner, has at least two descendants who made it to the Lords 8) 8) 8) 8)
and you're a Marquessate ;D
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My great grandfather was James Stokes, who was killed in a mining accident at Black Park Colliery in 1898. I discovered about a year or so ago that James had a son; William who died in 1900 at the age of eighteen. The interesting thing is that no one in my family knew of William's existence, my dad had always understood that his mother Caroline was James and Phoebe's eldest child.
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First of all Tainant a very warm welcome to Rootschat.
Now then given that James Stokes married Phoebe Jones in the Oswestry District in 1991,all things being equal I would have to say that Caroline born in c 1892 was indeed the first child of James and Phoebe.
However the only logical explanation I can give is that James had possibly been married before as the 1901 Census shows the widowed Phoebe with children Caroline etc,but also with a "son" William given as born in St Martins in c 1884.
When and where was James the elder born?
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Hi
One of my brief appearances but I decided to reply as it concerns my family :)
Welcome Tainant. You must be a cousin of mine!
James (b. 1856, Willenhall) was the son of John Stokes and Caroline Par(r)ish, my 2 x grandparents . He married a Catherine (1848-1889) (not found a marriage record though)
1891 - RG12/2118/152/6 with younger sister, Susan
1881 - RG11/2661/64/8 with wife Catherine (died 1889)
1871 - RG10/2784/99/19 - with parents
James married Phoebe Jones in 1991 1891
By 1911 Phoebe had remarried a Henry Lloyd and was living in Llansilin. As they are my relatives, I gather that I can mention this.
I can find no birth record of a William Stokes circa 1884 in the Oswestry RD and he is not with James in 1891. He was possibly the son of Phoebe before she married James.*
Gadget
* Added - he could be a boarder with a William and Elizabeth Davies in Green Lane halton on the 1891: RG12/2118/155/11 There is a Birth Reg for a William Marpole Stokes, in the Oswestry Reg district, June q, 1882 but :-\
A further addition - William Stokes died in the December q of 1901 Oswestry, vol 6a p 463. Aged 18
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A very welcome re-appearance Gadget!
I can't find Phoebe Jones too readily before she appears as Phoebe Stokes in 1901?
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Thanks to all for your interest and hello cousin. I should maybe fill in a few gaps about which I'm certain - Phoebe Jones married James Stokes in Sept 1891 when he had already one child, namely William, his first wife Catherine Evans died in 1889.
Phoebe - following the death of James (Jim) Stokes married Henry (Harry) Lloyd who also was a widower in 1909. I know the prior history of Phoebe and Henry.
My grandmother was Caroline, who I remember, she was up until I discovered William the eldest of Jim's children (I don't need to know about her other brothers and sisters because I'm old enough to have met them) It's William I would really like to know about, he was a farm labouror in St Martins when he died and was still living in Halton, Chirk.
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Gadget,
I'm interested in George Williams who married Susannah Stokes in 1888. He played football for Chirk & Wales (6 caps). In the 1911 census he was a coal miner living in Hunslet area. Do you have any information on his date of death? I'm trying to round him off for a second edition of the "Who's Who of Welsh International soccer Players". Thanks.
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Hi Canary :)
I've sent you a personal message (PM) about this family.
gnu
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I am travelling to Chirk from Australia in June and would love to meet some of my Parrish relatives. My Mother was Elsie Joyce Parrish born in 1915. Her Father was Arthur, a coal miner dead of Black Lung Disease at the age of 39 when she was 9. My parents visited Chirk on their only trip back to the UK almost 40 years ago and at that time Mum had enough living relatives for a large and happy reunion.
Deborah