RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Bedfordshire Lookup Requests => Bedfordshire => England => Bedfordshire Completed Look ups => Topic started by: MatthewJ on Sunday 20 December 09 10:07 GMT (UK)
-
Hello,
I'm looking for a marriage between a Thomas Courtney and an Eliza Hine Pollard, which is in the GRO indexes in the first quarter of 1873 in the Luton district. I don't know which church it took place in, but what I believe to be Eliza and her family are living in the St. Mary's ecclesiastical district of Luton on the 1871 census. If anyone can help I would be very grateful, even if it's just to rule some churches out.
Thanks,
Matthew
Edit: I've updated the title of this thread now, following Tazzie's confirmation of the church.
-
Have a look at
www.familysearch.org
Bedfordshire has a good coverage on here and we find...
St Mary's Luton Beds
1 Feb 1873 Thomas Courtney age 28
Eliza Pollard age 25
Does that help?
Tazzie
-
Hi Tazzie,
Thank you very much for that, I usually check the IGI, I obviously missed this one. That confirms that they were married at St. Mary's, and gives us the date too, so thanks for that. Eliza was illegitimate, and I'm interested to see if her father's name is given, I think it might be George Hine, as from the censuses it looks like her mother later married him, and Eliza is listed as Eliza Hine Pollard in the GRO indexes for this marriage. I'm also interested in Thomas Courtney's profession and father's name, as I've not found him on the censuses. At least now I have an approximate year of birth based on his age at the time of his marriage.
Thanks again,
Matthew
-
Matthew, I don't know how local you are, but you could check out the marriage certificate in the parish registers at either Bedford Archives or Luton library. If you cannot visit them I suggest email the Beds Archives for them to find the entry on the microfiche. Now that you know date & place their charges most likely will be less than you paying £7.00 for the cert from the GRO.
regards John
-
Hi
Have you seen this baptism?
Eliza Hine baptised 3 Feb 1850 at St Marys Luton parents George Hine and Eliza
Is this your Eliza Hine Pollard? If so does add weight to her father being George Hine
Jan ;)
-
Hello,
Thank you both for your replies.
John, I'm not very local, so your Bedfordshire Archives suggestion sounds like a very good option, thank you for that.
Jan, that looks like it most likely is the Eliza I am looking for. There aren't many George Hine's in the area and especially not married to an Eliza. The year is a little later than I expected (the censuses consistently make her a couple of years older, as does her marriage record). However, George and Eliza only got married in October 1849, and they had a son together around 1850 (he's on the 1851 census), and I see that there's a baptism for him the same day as the Eliza one that you found. Maybe they wanted to wait until they were married before they had her baptised. They haven't got a daughter named Eliza on the 1851 census (the Eliza Hine Pollard I've been looking for appears to have been raised with her materal grandparents). So it does look promising.
I'd still be interested to know who was named as the father on Eliza Hine Pollard's marriage record, but if no one has access to it then I will think about visiting the area myself sometime, I now know of a few records that I want to look up.
Thanks for all of your help,
Matthew
-
Hi Matthew
Bedford and Luton Archives are extremely helpful, it is a smashing place to visit. If you can't get there they are equally obliging if you email them with your query
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0851/
Jan ;)
-
Matthew, Are you suggesting this is a late baptism for Eliza; if so could it tie in with the birth index of Eliza Pollard in March qtr 1848 in Luton RD volume 6 page 112 - do you have the birth certificate ?
-
Hi,
Thank you both for your replies. John - I am fairly sure that that it the right Eliza Pollard in the birth indexes. I haven't purchased the birth certificate yet. Because she lived with her grandparents on the censuses I know her maternal family, and I thought that her marriage entry would be a good starting place to confirm her father's name. I wasn't sure whether the birth certificate would give her father's name, as she was born out of wedlock. I do intend to get it in time. I also think I will consider visiting Luton sometime, or maybe contacting the Bedford and Luton Archives.
Thanks,
Matthew
-
I'm also interested in Thomas Courtney........ as I've not found him on the censuses.
Have you found Thomas and/or Eliza on censuses after their marriage in 1873 ? I have had a look but no luck -- except on 1901 there is an Elizabeth Courtney, widow age 56 born Luton, Beds (although that's mistranscribed as Lenton !) living in South-West Hackney. She has with her grandson Bert age 22 born Hackney. Next door is a William Courtney, age 31 born Luton, with wife Anne & 2 children, & next door on is Thomas Courtney age 34 with wife Eliza born Luton & son.
Interesting is the Hackney connection, as George Hine & Eliza plus son George & others are living in Hackney, Middx on the 1861 census
Regards John
-
Hi
think this is them in 1891 in Hackney still
RG12/ 204 F 118 PAGE 67 31 Ada St
Eliza Courtney hd m 43 laundress washer Beds
Rose dau u 18 silken worker Beds
Alice Hines boarder u 15 " " London Bethnal Green
Wm Brown " " 27 car ? (cannot read) " St Lukes.
Does Rose marry in 1891 in to Charles Savery at Bethnal Green?
If this is right a Charles Hine was a witness and her sister Sarah. Thomas is listed as father deceased.
There is a Thomas Courtney/Courtenay b Silverton Devon @ 1846 who keeps flitting in and out of the census.
I think the marriage details will open this up on his side at least.
Tazzie
-
Hi,
I have found Eliza on the censuses after 1873, but not Thomas. I am using my work computer at the moment, and I haven't got all of my research with me, but off the top of my head, in the 1871 census Eliza has two sons, a George T. Pollard and a William. The only George Pollard I could find around that time in the birth indexes was a Thomas George, which I think is him. Following his mother's 1873 marriage he appears as Thomas Courtney. Rose is born in the same quarter as the marriage, seemingly registered as a Pollard, but after the marriage given as Courtney. Sarah is born 1875 I think, registered as a Courtney.
Rose did marry Charles Savery in 1891, and this does make the Hackney connection interesting. As you have seen she lived in Ada Street in Hackney in 1891. Charles Savery lived in Goring Street at the time (which is now called Jackman Street). If you look at them on a map they are neighbouring streets which run parallel to each other. You will also see that Charles' maternal grandmother is living with them, who is Eliza Hine (Eliza's mother, and so Rose's grandmother too). I can't remember what year the marriage was, but Charles Savery's father and namesake married Jane Hine, the daughter of George and Eliza.
Having seen all of this I couldn't help but wonder why George and Eliza would have left their first daughter with Eliza's parents, then got married and had more children of their own, and moved out of the area, only for Eliza to follow later on. If she was George's daughter I can't understand why they didn't take her in when they had children in wedlock. Maybe it was because of the stigma surrounding illegitimate children? Although young Eliza seemed to be happy having Thomas Courtney's children before they were married, and then another during, but kept them all together.
Matthew
-
Bit more on son Thomas/ George b @1867
He married twice 1st wife Minnie Mariner
St Paul Bethnal Green 25 Dec 1890
Thomas George Courtenay age 24 bach gilder father Thomas brass gilder
Minnie Mariner age 27 spin father Josiah Mariner tailor
I cannot read the address and they both give the same one. A William Browne is a witness and the lodger in 1891 was Wm Brown.
2nd
Emma King St Thomas Bethnal Green
July 8 1900
Thomas Courtney age 33 wid Gilder father Thomas deceased lab
Emma King age 33 toymaker father Edward deceased lab
address Harrand St? Halland st?
witnesses John & Sarah Blake........ sister Sarah married John Arthur Blake in 1892 she list Thomas snr the father as Stovemaker on her marriage.
Just spinning the names around to get something I hate dead ends!
Tazzie
-
Matthew --- & hello Tazzie
I've got the day off & as Beds Archives are just down the road - well after I creep out of the village on the iced up roads - I went for a visit...
The 1st Feb 1873 marriage at St Marys Luton by banns...
Thomas Courtney, bachelor, age 28, of Luton, occupation Stoker; father William Courtney, basket maker
- to -
Eliza Pollard, spinster, age 25, of Luton, no occupation; father George Pollard, bricklayer
witnesses William Hines & ? ? ? Barker (female as it says her mark)
While the marriage entry is in name of Eliza Pollard, where they have to sign it says Eliza Hine Pollard, with her mark.
Why is it that her father is named Pollard & not Hine ? perhaps the vicar assumed this if the real facts were not disclosed at the time, but it must be him as George Hine was a bricklayer's labourer on 1861 census
-
From the 29 Oct 1849 St Marys Luton marriage of George Hine, bachelor, age 29, of Luton, labourer; father James Hine, labourer -to- Eliza Pollard, spinster, age 22 of Luton; father Joseph Pollard, labourer.
witnesses William Pollard & Elizabeth Pollard
-
St Marys Luton baptisms on 3rd Feb 1850
In the register George appears first, above Eliza, although in the margin against her is written 'oldest'; both children of George & Eliza Hine, labourer of Luton.
-
Hello John ..... ;D
Glad you made it in one piece bit icy over my way....
Anyway ....BINGO.... the Silverton one looks good now as ....
Silverton 1851
High Bullen
Elizabeth Courtney hd w 67 school mistress Devon Templeton
William Courtney son wid 47 BASKETMAKER Devon Silverton
John Courtney g/son 11 scholar " " "
A 7 year old Thomas Courtney is nephew to Isabella Langdon 4 doors down the road
HO107/1888 F124 PAGE23
Can see him with sister in 1861 and poss in Watford in 1881 after that stumped.....
off to walk the dog in the snow....back later
Tazzie
-
Hi,
Tazzie, I too had found that marriage for Sarah, I can't remember whether I had mate not of the Thomas ones, I will look this evening.
John - thank you for the information from the marriage record, I had already pencilled James in as his father based on a baptism I got from the IGI: Harpenden, Herford 26th July 1818, George Hine baptised to James and Mary. So I think that almost certainly confirms it, there weren't many George Hines around, certainly not in Harpenden. Thank you very much too for the information from the baptisms. Bearing in mind how young George was at the time (he was 1 year old over a year later on the 1881 census), it doesn't leave any time for Eliza to have been born in wedlock (when the marriage was less than months before these baptisms). So she almost certainly would have been born Eliza Pollard.
Thanks a lot for this, I'll take a longer look at all of this this evening. I'd best get back to work now, but thanks again, this is really appreciated.
Matthew
-
Tazzie, Yes I think the Thomas Courtney from Silverton Devon, married, age 35, bricklayer's labourer & living in rented accomodation in Watford Herts is a favourite.
---- but where's wife Eliza & children in 1881
-
Hi John .....
Luton .... RG11/1649 F 112 P47 24 Back Street
Eliza Courtney wife m 33 servant
Thomas son u 13 scholar
Rose dau 8 scholar
Sarah dau 6 scholar.
no birth places given as page was folded when scanned so unreadable!
Cannot pin him down near to area in 1871 though.
Tazzie
-
Hi everyone
You've been very busy here :)
Have also been looking for Thomas Courtenay but haven't found him in 1871/91 either. Will keep looking.
I wonder why Thomas junior has him as a gilder? Admittedly he does change occupation a lot - carpenter, stoker, builders labourer, stovemaker - so maybe he was a gilder at some point.
Jan ;)
-
Hello all,
I've just looked though the research that I had carried out, and I had only found the second of Thomas the younger's marriages, so thank you for that Tazzie. Just looking at the first one, does the father's occupation read 'brass guilder'? Or 'brass finisher'? Either way it's quite different from the other things he is recorded as doing. It's definitely the right Thomas getting married though though, it even gives his middle name as George.
Thank you very much John for looking up Eliza and Thomas' marriage entry, I didn't see that post when I was at work today. How interesting about the father's name. I agree, it does seem that she probably meant George Hine, especially since he is named on the baptism as her father, and the occupation on the marriage matches. I think I will order her birth certificate in the new year, is the father likely to be named? I've only encountered one illegitimate ancestor before, and the father wasn't given on that one.
Thank you all for looking for Thomas the elder (son of William) for me on the censuses. I'll look up the records that Tazzie suggested now.
Thank you all so much for going to so much trouble to help me out with this, it really is appreciated.
Matthew
-
Hi Matthew
Re your question - is the father likely to be named? For births before 1850 the answer is maybe/maybe not ::)
See
http://www.dixons.clara.co.uk/Certificates/indexbd.htm
For an excellent guide to what you will find on BMD certificates
Jan ;)
-
Hello all,
I've had a look at the possible Thomas Courtney records, and the father's occupation of the Silverton family does make that look promising.
I've found a website of someone else's research into the Pollard/Hine families at http://www.nextech.de/genealogy/harnwell/ - The author doesn't appear to have researched Eliza Hine Pollard's parentage, but it names her grandmother on there. A lot of the earlier generations look like best matches from the IGI, and do come with a disclaimer. I will get in touch with them, as they have a lot of information from death certificates etc.
I'm going to mark this thread as completed now, as thanks to all of your help we have gone above and beyond the original subject.
Thank you again all of you, it really is appreciated.
Matthew
P.S. Thank you Jan for that link, a very informative site.
-
I believe you are talking about members of my family?
I am the great grandaughter of Charles and Elizabeth Hines of 27 Goring Street, London. Do you have any additional information? Or can I help you with anything?
I also have been looking at the Harnwell research and this is definitely my family as well.