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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: grumpier on Sunday 03 January 10 10:14 GMT (UK)
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Hello my first post, so here goes.
I am tryingf to confirm that Elizabeth Smith's father was Joseph Smith, the convict - 2nd fleet Neptune. Elizabeth was born 1799 and died 1846. Married John Bailey ofSt Albans NSW IN 1828. Does anyone have any information that may help?
Grumpier
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Hi Grumpier,
Welcome to Rootschat :)
There is no 1799 Birth on NSW BMD for Elizabeth.
May I ask how you got her birth year?
There is this one though;
Elizabeth SMITH
1797, Sydney, Parents THOMAS and ANN
There are 2 ref nos to purchase the Cert if you think she may be yours.
I cannot find a Marriage Reg or Death Reg for Elizabeth.
Others with access to more records than me may be able to help you more.
Cheers,
Trish
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Me neither
2 marriages from 1800-1850
Elizabeth Prosser 1833
Elizabeth Green 1842
Annie
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IGI has the following refs, however they are all submitted, so unreliable, especially in this case as three of them seem to be the same person with differing info - which is why you are trying to sort it out, I suppose!!
Elizabeth SMITH, b 10 Jul 1797 Sydney, parents Thomas Smith, Ann Colpitts
Elizabeth Smith, b 1799 Hawkesbury; m abt 1828 John BAILEY, St Albans NSW; d 26 Mar, 1846
Elizabeth SMITH, b abt 1799 Macdonald River, parents Joseph SMITH and Mrs Joseph SMITH; d 26 Mar, 1846
Elizabeth Smith, b 1802 Hawkesbury, parents Joseph SMITH, Margaret HOLMES; d 26 Mar, 1846
Not much help, I'm afraid :(
From NSW BMDs
Marriage for Joseph SMITH and Margaret HOLMES at St Matthews Windsor, 1812; Ref:
V18121407 3A/1812
Also some births with parents listed as John BAILEY and Elizabeth (SMITH). There are more with mother just as Elizabeth without the SMITH mentioned. No districts given on these early ones.
V1832652 18/1832 John BAILEY
V18452082 31A/1845 John BAILEY
V18341086 18/1834 Thomas BAILEY
Judith
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In the Convict muster lists, General Muster of 1822 Joseph SMITH from the Neptune is a landholder at Windsor. Muster of 1811 states he was tried at The Old Bailey.
The 1828 NSW census shows
Joseph SMITH age 55, ship Neptune arrived 1790, convicted for life, FS ?
Margaret SMITH, age 54, ship Mary Ann arrived 1791, convicted 7 years, FS ?
These two are bracketed together with occupation 'farmer'. 301 acres, 7 horses, 204 horned cattle. The place is VERY hard to read - looks like "Portld?? Head". Looking at Googlemap there is a Portland Head Rd, Ebenezer NSW so maybe this is the place.
None of which answers your aim to find Elizabeth's parents.
Judith
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Thanks for all the responses!
I have followed the Elizabeth Smith born 1797 (Father Thomas mother Ann Colpits) and she is not my Elizabeth. My Elizabeth is buried at the Bailey farm under the name of Smith though she had 7 children to John Bailey (known as Governer Bailey) at St. Albans. They were my husbands gggggranparents. I am sure this is my Elizabeth but I am still looking for Joseph Smith. Thanks again shall just keep hunting.
Grumpier
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Hi Grumpier,
Like you I'm new to the site and I'm also new to family history / genealogy but trying to begin somewhere and your enquiry came to light as a google search...maybe I can help a little.
Elizabeth Smith & John Bailey are my 3 x great g.p. My understanding is that they were a common law couple. Elizabeth was the result of a union / marriage between Joseph Smith (2nd fleet etc) and an Aboriginal lady from the local Dharug / Daruk (various spellings) people with traditional lands at Ebenezer etc on the Macdonald River. I'm trying to find some more info re the truth behind this family legend but indigenous geneaology is difficult to trace! Caroline Chisolm interviewed Mr & Mrs Joseph Smith in 1845 as part of her study / interviews on migration. It is noted that Mrs Smith was blind but makes no mention of being indigenous. Perhaps Mrs Smith was indigenous or Joseph had an earlier liasion? I'm sure you know Guvna Bailey was one of 40 children by the 2 Bailey brothers John & William and Guvna himself had 7 children with Elizabeth + 13 with his second wife Eleanor! With breeders like that anything is possible! I'm continuing to work on the indigenous 4 x great g. mother & would like to keep in contact.
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Caroline Chisolm interviewed Mr & Mrs Joseph Smith in 1845 as part of her study / interviews on migration. It is noted that Mrs Smith was blind but makes no mention of being indigenous. Perhaps Mrs Smith was indigenous or Joseph had an earlier liasion?
As Judith said, Joseph SMITH married Margaret HOLMES in 1812, and they are together on the 1828 census. Margaret was not indigenous, she arrived on the Mary Ann in 1791 and appears to have had several relationships before marrying Joseph. To find if any of the events before 1812 are connected to your Joseph, you would have to check the original records. Does Joseph's death certificate list his children? What infromation do you have that makes you think Joseph is Elizabeth's father?
Debra
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Re: Joseph Smith
I have traced Elizabeth Smith back to her common law marriage to John Bailey, therefore confirming that she is my family’s Elizabeth. When trying to trace her parents I found two Elizabeth’s. The first had parents listed as Thomas Smith and Ann Colpitts. But our family tree did not trace to this couple. (Unfortunate as I would have loved to have First Fleeters in our family). The other Elizabeth has no birth record but through a private source I have been told her father was Joseph, mother unknown but believed to be aboriginal. This brings me to Joseph Smith.
The only Joseph Smiths in the Hawkesbury at that time was Joseph Smith, convict from the Neptune, and his son Joseph born 1804.
Joseph did marry Margaret Holmes in 1812. They had a common law marriage prior to that from 1802.
In the book “The Second Fleet – Britain’s Grim Convict Armada of 1790” by Michael Flynn it was recorded that in 1806 the couple were supporting 4 children. Margaret had 4 children prior to her becoming the partner of Joseph but two of these children died by 1799, which left 2 of Margarets children, plus one child with Joseph, and Elizabeth to make up the four recorded. (Margaret and Joseph’s other 2 children were born after ths 1806 record). And again on his death certificate it only lists 3 children to Margaret. We have Elizabeth born c 1799 prior to Joseph and Margaret getting together. Margaret was in another relationship at this time.
Elizabeth Smith had a common law marriage to John Bailey. A map of the Mcdonald Valley, Hawkesbury in the early 1800’s shows much land belonging to the Smiths and the Baileys. Thinking back to those early days, people did not travel far and it is not inconceivable that before they married Elizabeth lived close by to John. This can be seen in fly map from the book “The forgotten Valley” by Marjorie Hutton Neve.
I have searched for information of Elizabeth’s parentage on many sites, many forums. I know that you can not take forum information as THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH but just about every one that I have read lists Elizabeth as Father Joseph Smith mother Aboriginal. (A lot of information from the Hunter Valley Geneology Forum). As records of that time are hard to trace and indigenous genealogy almost impossible, I do not know how to go any further. Again the only Joseph Smith I could find in that area at that time was Joseph from the convict ship Neptune.
All this information was placed before Mrs J Woollard, a noted family historian from the Southern Highlands and she reached the conclusion that there was a 99% chance that Elizabeth was a child of Joseph. I would love to have proof absolute that Elizabeth is this Joseph’s child but I have not been able to find proof that she is not his child and until I do will accept that this is likely to be correct. If anyone has proof or information contrary to this please let us know.
Grumpier.
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Hi Grumpier,
I have been looking around cyberspace at info on this family, and it is any wonder you are "Grumpier" - they coudn't have made it any harder for you, especially with the extra Baileys and Smiths thrown in! I read a post on the HVG forum which says "only record for the birth was mother black female" - I was thinking that this was something documented at the time, but it is probably just from a contemporary source. Have you found if Elizabeth and John are included on the 1828 census? Did John and Elizabeth have children by then?
I think that with so much work having been done already, it is unlikely (but not impossible) that any documention on Elizabeth's birth will be found. Has anyone in your family considered DNA testing? It would at least confirm the Aboriginal lineage.
Debra
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Grumpier,
I am tracking our tree and it leads to John Bailey and Elizabeth Smith. They apparently had 18 children. But when I look on Ancestry.com is seems that most trees get this John Baily confused with John (Squire) Bailey.
"also living in the valley at this time was an unrelated Bailey family. This often caused confusion between the two families, compounded with the fact that the oldest son of this Bailey family was also named John. He was known locally as "Squire" Bailey.
This John Bailey and his brother Thomas were born in England as a result of the marriage of Ann Smith and Thomas Bailey in 1809 in London England" - http://www.saintalbans.org.au/moreinfo.html
So I am wondering do you have any info on the 18 children of John Bailey (specifically his son John Bailey)? I am trying to figure out if the son John Bailey, had a son Frederick Bailey.
Thanks so much
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Hi,
I doubt you will find a birth reg for Elizabeth SMITH if her mother was indigenous.
Baptisms were records by your church of religion (Catholic, Church of England etc).
If Elizabeths mother was indigenous she would not have been a member of any church.
Most early indigenous BDM are unrecorded for that very reason.
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Hi there,
At the NSW BDM online index, there are some baptisms indexed that are obviously associated with indigenous families. These can be found by simply searching with the surname as "Aboriginal", and of course there's other baptisms indexed where either the father's name or the mother's name is recorded as "Aboriginal". It may well be that "your" Elizabeth Smith was not baptised until around the time of her marriage banns, so it could be worthwhile checking the parish records in the district where she married John Bailey.
As a word of caution, though, those Early Church Records (ECR) that the NSW BDM has indexed, were not civil registrations, which commenced post 1856. Not all ECRs were forwarded to the NSW BDM when civil registration commenced, and there are plenty of examples where there are extant parish records for B (baptisms), D (burials) M (marriages) that still have not been passed on to the NSW BDM.
Many of the Parish Records (upon which the ECR's are based) have been microfilmed and are held at (for example) the NSW State Library, in Sydney. Those films have much more details on them than the ECR transcript certificate based on the NSW BDM - for example the film will often have the occupation/ employer /address of the father, or may actually be on the "illegitimate" list.
One of the first rules/regulations that Gov Macquarie introduced (Sept 1810) was the recording of Births and Deaths in the Colony. This was to do with statistical purposes, including calculating feed/grain for the stores to feed the convicts, the convict guards, and others who were dependent on the Govt Stores. Musters, not just of convicts, but "General Musters" were held regularly. Some of those records are still in existance, so perhaps Elizabeth Smith may be named in one or more of those records too ;D
Good luck with your searchings, hope this brief overview helps to advance your own tree.
Cheers, JM
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Elizabeth Smith & John Bailey were my 4greats grandparents. Essential reading on any Macdonald Valley families is: "The Forgotten Valley by M. Hutton Neve," Abebooks has it online (it is rare) I'm trying to find out about Aaron Walters or Waters who married Susannah Lalliment. I think he was crew on the Broxbournebury & jumped ship to be with her (she was a convict) but can't find proof, thanks.
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Welcome to Rootschat Reallian.
You might do well to start a new thread asking for information about Aaron and Susannah, so that it isn't just tagged on the end of this thread. There are some very experiecned researchers who would like to help you!
It would be good to include any details you already have such as the names, birthdates of any of their children, their parents' names etc. I see two possible convict records for Susannah which seem a bit confusing given that the voyage details are different. ??? I see also the later muster records with Susannah Lillyman on board the Broxbournebury
Susannah Lalbamout [Susannah Lellement]
Convicted 1 Jul 1812, London, England
Voyage date: Oct 1812 Ship Emu
Susannah Lallamont
Convicted 1 Jul 1812, London
Voyage Date: Jan 1814 Ship Surrey
Place of Conviction: London, England
Judith
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Hi
Here is a link to SUSANNAH's trial at the Old Bailey
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18120701-10-defend140&div=t18120701-10#highlight
Sue
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The death of a child of the couple.
Reg 3591 In 1909 WALTERS AARON
Father AARON
MotherSUSANNA
At WEST WALLSEND
Sue
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Thanks will start a new thread on them, reallian.
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This is my first post on Roots Chat so bear with me. According to my records, being a descendant of Joseph Smith convict second fleet, Elizabeth Smith was the daughter of William Smith (Alias Smyth). William was the first partner of Margaret Holmes and they were together from 1793. Margaret Mary Holmes came out on the Mary Ann 3rd Fleet and in her life had partnered 4 men. William Morrison 1792, William Smith 1793, Patrick Shannon 1799 and Joseph Smith 1812. I have more information on their children if it is of interest.
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On further study I realise I have been wrong re Elizabeth Smith's father. I now realise that Joseph Smith convict from the Neptune 2nd fleet is the most likely candidate. Please disregard my previous post.
KASmith
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Hello, I am NEW to RootsChat and not sure how to reply. I would like to make contact with the member Grumpier to discuss my connection to Elizabeth Smith and John Bailey. I descend from this couple too through their daughter Margaret Bailey, then her daughter Mary Jane CROSS, her son Charles SWEENEY and his son Norman Ray WARWICK, who is my grandfather. I have a DNA link to this line. I am wanting more information on Elizabeth Smith's mother Mary, thought to be a Darkinjung or Dharug woman. Malcolm
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KASmith
looks like you and I might be related through Elizabeth Smith. Are we able to get in touch?
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Sonts, it looks like you and I descend from the same line of Elizabeth Smith and John Bailey. Is there any way we can make contact? Malcolm
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Hi MalSky, I have sent you a personal message re Elizabeth Smith. Cheers Mrs Grumpier.
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Hello All,
I am new to rootschat and am trying to work out how to use it.
I am new to this as I have just discovered a family history of Elizabeth Smith/John Bailey and her parents Joseph Smith and Mary Darkinjung.
I cannot locate how to personally send a message to anyone to ask for more information. I don't think it has been mentioned on this thread but Elizabeth took her own life around the age of 47. Not long after the death of her youngest child.
If anyone has more info on Joseph, Mary or Elizabeth could you please send me a message.
Thanking you, Donna
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Hi folks
I am a descendant of Elizabeth and John. They had 7 children before Elizabeth died; John remarried and had 8 more children.
Elizabeth's father was supposedly Joseph Smith and her mother was an Aboriginal woman (name not recorded.)
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Hello, I am also a descendant of Elizabeth smith and called Donna @historymakesus I see some dna testing and I am not sure what to think? Can anyone provide more information?