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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ayrshire => Topic started by: 85jbk on Monday 04 January 10 07:32 GMT (UK)
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Looking to locate the Kerr family from Ayrshire,Scotland to Australia.
Information taken from John's death certificate on 28th October 1907,Ballarat, Australia,aged 75 years.
John Thompson Kerr, bC1832, Ayrshire.
Father:John Thompson Kerr, farmer
Mother: Agnes
Married Jane Paterson born 9th March 1828,Ayrshire,(Old Cumnock)
Died 7 November 1896,Ballarat,Australia,aged 65 years.
Father:James Paterson, a box maker in Old Cumnock
Mother:Margaret Murdock
On the 26 April 1851 John Kerr & Jane Paterson both residing in Row(Rhu)parish, Dunbartonshire proclaimed on 27th April,5th & 12th May 1851.
I can only assume this is them? How can I go about trying to verify this?
From both John's and Janes death certificates, it names two male infants both "Archibald Kerr",the first,dead and suspect him being born and dying in Scotland and the other being born c1852, Scotland or Australia? The rest of the 8 children being born in Ballarat Australia.
Can some one suggest or help out with what avenues I may take to further my research on this line back to Scotland.
Thank You
Jill
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I did a search between 1825-1835 for Johns Birth and only found 1 in Ayrshire John Kerr b 25/01/1835 and his parents and siblings were
John Kerr b 1809 Stewarton,Ayr
Agnes Semple b 1813 Stewarton Ayr
John Kerr b 25/01/1835 Stewarton Ayr
James Kerr b 29/08/1836 Stewarton Ayr
Gabriel Longmuir Kerr b 12/12/1838 Stewarton Ayr
I am not sure if this is your family but with a bit of luck did the Gabriel name get carried on regards Firthview
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Ok the new year has set me searching yet again to knock down this brick wall to allow me to further my research back in Scotland on my Kerr line. i only know the area the family was from was Ayrshire, this is from the death certificate I have and shipping records which show they came to Australia in 1854. So where now?
Please can anyone suggest the next idea to look at.
I've tried the census records and one would have thought having Thompson as a middle name would be a tad easier but No, he obviously didnt use this name back in Scotland, as all I can find is John Kerr and which one in Ayrshire? I cant seem to find any with parents Agnes And John Thompson Kerr!
Any help to assist would be wonderful
Thanks
Jill
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Hi Jill,
Very frustrating having to look for a Kerr (quite a common name in Ayrshire) and having no joy.
I've had a quick look and can't find either John or Jane on 1851 Census (so far ;) ). I would have thought that with the 1851 Census being on 30th March and the couple marrying about a month later I would find them in Dunbartonshire but I've not came across any likely candidates yet. Of course that may not be the John and Jane you are looking for :-\.
I did find this birth which might interest you - maybe you've already seen it- https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYSH-6ZN
The baby Archibald Kerr born on 21st March 1852 and christened at Glasgow Lanarkshire would fit with the information you have.
I do wonder though about the reliability of the info on John's death cert, bearing in mind that the information would be provided by one of his descendants who may not have known all the facts :-\.
It could be that John's father was not a John.... I would be inclined to consider other forenames. This could make your search harder unfortunately :(.
What info do the shipping records give you? Does it definitely say Ayrshire as John's place of birth?
Looby :)
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Hi All :)
Just adding link to this older post www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=405915.0 regarding the Patersons as I think Jonn's info on the Paterson is relevant here.
I can't see Jane's entry on https://familysearch.org however a number of possible siblings (if we have the right family for her) show as born in Ochiltree following parents' marriage in 1819 (from Jonn's previous info).
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Thanks for that ! I'd just been looking at the Patersons in Ochiltree.
Think this could be the family in 1851 (minus the elusive Jane :()
22 Oswald Street Bridgeton Glasgow
James Paterson Head Married 62 Hand Loom Weaver born Lanarkshire, Glasgow
Margaret Paterson Wife M 56 Housekeeper born Ayrshire Ochiltree
Eliza Paterson Dau Married 27 Steam Loom Weaver
Andrew Paterson Son Unmarried 20 Tailor
Izabella Paterson Dau U 18 Shawl Fringer
Margaret Paterson Dau U 16 Shawl Fringer
Catherine Paterson Dau U 14 Servant
Sarah Morton Granddau U 10 Winder
Mary Hetherington Granddau U 5 Scholar
All spellings as per Freecen transcriptions. All children and grandchildren born in Ayrshire, Ochiltree.
James could easily have been a box maker in Ayrshire but changed occupation when coming to Glasgow. Just wonder where Jane is hiding :)
Looby :)
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Haven't found them so far either, Looby.
Wandering whether there may be errors on registrations for death for John Kerr. The only farmer's son I can see so far is a John Kerr b. 1832 in Beith https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTVH-N1M however, whilst father and grandfather Johns are both farmers, mother is a Margaret King. They show in the censuses, as does John b. 1832 post 1851...eliminating that one.
Monica
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Ah-ha :D !
Just found a Jean Paterson on 1851 Census
She's at Row in Dunbartonshire.
Living at Princes Street Helensburgh.
George MacLachlan age 26 Writer and Procurator born Paisley Renfrewshire
Elizabeth Maclachlan age 23 Wife born Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Jessy MacLachlan age 2 months Born Helensburgh
Jean Paterson age 19 House servant Born Cumnock Ayrshire
This surely must be the Jane who marries John Kerr just one month later in Dunbaronshire , Row (Rhu).
Looby :)
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Hi Jill,
Had another little browse for John Kerr but I'm not having much luck.
I wonder if you could list the full names of all his children to see if that can give us a pointer to to family.
I had been considering the John Kerr born to John Kerr and Agnes Semple in Stewarton but his year of birth is 1835 making him a wee bit too young to be the groom in 1851 at Rhu. He is on the 1851 Census at St Mary's or Tron, Glasgow aged 16 living with an aunt and uncle Elizabeth and Hugh Snodgrass and working as a Flesher. I'm not convinced he's the man you're looking for?! :-\
Looby :)
BTW- the above John Kerr is the same one firthview found in Reply no.1
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Hi Jill,
Very frustrating having to look for a Kerr (quite a common name in Ayrshire) and having no joy.
I've had a quick look and can't find either John or Jane on 1851 Census (so far ;) ). I would have thought that with the 1851 Census being on 30th March and the couple marrying about a month later I would find them in Dunbartonshire but I've not came across any likely candidates yet. Of course that may not be the John and Jane you are looking for :-\.
I did find this birth which might interest you - maybe you've already seen it- https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYSH-6ZN
The baby Archibald Kerr born on 21st March 1852 and christened at Glasgow Lanarkshire would fit with the information you have.
I do wonder though about the reliability of the info on John's death cert, bearing in mind that the information would be provided by one of his descendants who may not have known all the facts :-\.
It could be that John's father was not a John.... I would be inclined to consider other forenames. This could make your search harder unfortunately :(.
What info do the shipping records give you? Does it definitely say Ayrshire as John's place of birth?
Looby :)
Hi Looby
Thank you for your input toward my question on The Kerr/Paterson's of Scotland. The birth you have there is almost certain to be young Archibald the first. Yeah Hah!!! This now fits with my quandary on the two Archibald's, who I just couldn't fit into the family. This was again substantiated from the death cert of both Mother, Jane and Father John. As it happens I brought the marriage cert last night of the Archibald I have here in Australia which corroborated that he was in fact the one who came to Australia aboard "The Bride of the Sea" with his parents John and Jane, aged 0. The Marriage cert list his birthplace as Glascow, Sclotland. Therefore the Little Archibald Kerr the first has met his demise prior to his parents leaving to Australia. So now to find the second Archibald Kerr Birth record!
I realize the facts on death certs are not always accurate, which I guess is always in your mind when you are researching but without these facts a point of research cannot be realized. I guess that is why we have to clarify with certs! to confirm.
Scotland is all that I can see recorded on the shipping records.
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Hi All :)
Just adding link to this older post www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=405915.0 regarding the Patersons as I think Jonn's info on the Paterson is relevant here.
I can't see Jane's entry on https://familysearch.org however a number of possible siblings (if we have the right family for her) show as born in Ochiltree following parents' marriage in 1819 (from Jonn's previous info).
Monica
Hi Monica
Thanks Monica, Yes The Family at Ochiltree seem very possible( and I must say is one I have puit up on my tree) but confirming this is the hard part. And how to know if this is the correct family?
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Hi Monica,
Thanks for that ! I'd just been looking at the Patersons in Ochiltree.
Think this could be the family in 1851 (minus the elusive Jane :()
22 Oswald Street Bridgeton Glasgow
James Paterson Head Married 62 Hand Loom Weaver born Lanarkshire, Glasgow
Margaret Paterson Wife M 56 Housekeeper born Ayrshire Ochiltree
Eliza Paterson Dau Married 27 Steam Loom Weaver
Andrew Paterson Son Unmarried 20 Tailor
Izabella Paterson Dau U 18 Shawl Fringer
Margaret Paterson Dau U 16 Shawl Fringer
Catherine Paterson Dau U 14 Servant
Sarah Morton Granddau U 10 Winder
Mary Hetherington Granddau U 5 Scholar
All spellings as per Freecen transcriptions. All children and grandchildren born in Ayrshire, Ochiltree.
James could easily have been a box maker in Ayrshire but changed occupation when coming to Glasgow. Just wonder where Jane is hiding :)
Looby :)
Looks very promising. Mother Margaret was a "Murdock". The Murdock names continues in the Australian Kerr line today. Maybe this is a hint
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Ah-ha :D !
Just found a Jean Paterson on 1851 Census
She's at Row in Dunbartonshire.
Living at Princes Street Helensburgh.
George MacLachlan age 26 Writer and Procurator born Paisley Renfrewshire
Elizabeth Maclachlan age 23 Wife born Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Jessy MacLachlan age 2 months Born Helensburgh
Jean Paterson age 19 House servant Born Cumnock Ayrshire
This surely must be the Jane who marries John Kerr just one month later in Dunbaronshire , Row (Rhu).
Looby :)
Genius!! :D What can I say! This surely has to be Jane!
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Hi Jill,
Had another little browse for John Kerr but I'm not having much luck.
I wonder if you could list the full names of all his children to see if that can give us a pointer to to family.
I had been considering the John Kerr born to John Kerr and Agnes Semple in Stewarton but his year of birth is 1835 making him a wee bit too young to be the groom in 1851 at Rhu. He is on the 1851 Census at St Mary's or Tron, Glasgow aged 16 living with an aunt and uncle Elizabeth and Hugh Snodgrass and working as a Flesher. I'm not convinced he's the man you're looking for?! :-\
Looby :)
BTW- the above John Kerr is the same one firthview found in Reply no.1
I have to say the entry for your listings above don't really sound correct, just the names are not within my tree. Concurring middle names of children are: Murdock, Thompson, Kerr, Paterson.
John and Janes children are:
Archibald Kerr, b 1852, Scotland and died Scotland ( Assuming he died)
Archibald Kerr, b 1854, Glascow, Scotland
Margaret Murdock Kerr, b 1856, Aust
Agnes Thompson Kerr, b 1858, Aust ( Johns Mothers name was Agnes)
James Paterson Kerr, b 1860, Aust
John James Kerr, b1863, Aust
William John Kerr, b1865,Aust
Isabella Jane Kerr,1868,Aust
Grace Elizabeth Kerr,b1870,Aust
Andrew Allen Kerr,b 1873,Aust
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Hi Jill,
Looking at the list of John and Jane Kerr's children is interesting. As is knowing that they used the name Archibald for the second born after the first born died. :)
I would be inclined to think that Archibald was John's father's name.
The couple have followed that good old tradition of naming -
first daughter after mum's mum- Margaret Murdock Kerr.
second daughter after dad's mum - Agnes Thompson Kerr
second son (third after the demise of Archibald no.1) after mum's dad- James Paterson Kerr.
The use of the middle names would make me wonder if John's mum was an Agnes Thompson before marriage.
I have found a marriage for an Archibald Kerr and an Agnes Thomson (no p ;D) in Inch in Wigtownshire 20th April 1811 - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XY72-7NT.
it appears that this couple go on to have several children one of whom is a John Kerr born in Kirkholm , Wigtownshire 10th Jan 1831 - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XY9M-DTL
By 1836 this family have moved to Ballantrae, Ayrshire (beautiful area) as they have a son James born there.
Here is the family on the 1841 Census-
Drumconel. Ballantrae, Ayrshire
Archebald Kerr aged 57 Joiner born outside Census County
Agness Kerr aged 46 "
Agness Kerr aged 15 "
Archibald Kerr aged 12 "
John Kerr aged 10 "
Robert Kerr aged 8 "
Charles Kerr aged 8 "
James Kerr aged 5 born Ayrshire
Grace Cumming aged 8 born outside Census County
Spellings are as transcribed on Freecen.
It's interesting that there's a Grace in this family as the name also appears as one of your John's daughters. No relationships are recorded on the 1841 Census so I don;t know who Grace Cumming is but as Archibald and Agnes above do have older children I wondered if this could be a granddaughter??
Looby :)
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Hi again Jill,
Think I've found the John Kerr from my last post on the 1851 Census living with a family (perhaps his boss?) in Greenock Renfrewshire.
The family are at Roxburgh Street, Mckellvies Land
MASON John Head M M 48 General Mason Stirlingshire - Strathblane
MASON Jane Wife M F 40 Renfrewshire - Greenock
MASON James Son U M 12 Janitor At School Renfrewshire - Greenock
MASON John Son - M 11 Janitor At School Renfrewshire - Greenock
MASON Amelia Dau - F 8 At School Renfrewshire - Greenock
MASON Joseph Son - M 6 At School Renfrewshire - Greenock
MASON Elizabeth Dau - F 4 Renfrewshire - Wemyss Bay(Originally: Renfrewshire - Wemys Bay)
KERR Archibald Lodger - M 21 Mason's (App) Wigtownshire - Kirkcolm
KERR John Lodger - M 20 Joiner Wigtownshire - Kirkcolm
Looks like John and his brother are together working for Mr Mason the mason :)
Their parents are still in Ballantrae in Ayrshire on this Census
KERR Archibald Head M M 65 Milwright Wigtownshire - Kirkcolm
KERR Agnes Wife M F 54 Milwrights Wife Wigtownshire - Inch
KERR Charls Son U M 28 Joiner And Milwright Wigtownshire - Kirkcolm
BARCLY William Grnson U M 8 Ayrshire - Colmonell
By road in 1851 it would have been a long trek from Greenock to Rhu in Dunbartonshire :-\. And this Census was taken just a few weeks before the marriage of John Kerr and Jane Paterson....
Hmm...I wonder how frequently the boats sailed from Greenock "across the watter" ;D ;D
Looby :)
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Hi again Jill,
Think I've found the John Kerr from my last post on the 1851 Census living with a family (perhaps his boss?) in Greenock Renfrewshire.
The family are at Roxburgh Street, Mckellvies Land
MASON John Head M M 48 General Mason Stirlingshire - Strathblane
MASON Jane Wife M F 40 Renfrewshire - Greenock
MASON James Son U M 12 Janitor At School Renfrewshire - Greenock
MASON John Son - M 11 Janitor At School Renfrewshire - Greenock
MASON Amelia Dau - F 8 At School Renfrewshire - Greenock
MASON Joseph Son - M 6 At School Renfrewshire - Greenock
MASON Elizabeth Dau - F 4 Renfrewshire - Wemyss Bay(Originally: Renfrewshire - Wemys Bay)
KERR Archibald Lodger - M 21 Mason's (App) Wigtownshire - Kirkcolm
KERR John Lodger - M 20 Joiner Wigtownshire - Kirkcolm
Looks like John and his brother are together working for Mr Mason the mason :)
Their parents are still in Ballantrae in Ayrshire on this Census
KERR Archibald Head M M 65 Milwright Wigtownshire - Kirkcolm
KERR Agnes Wife M F 54 Milwrights Wife Wigtownshire - Inch
KERR Charls Son U M 28 Joiner And Milwright Wigtownshire - Kirkcolm
BARCLY William Grnson U M 8 Ayrshire - Colmonell
By road in 1851 it would have been a long trek from Greenock to Rhu in Dunbartonshire :-\. And this Census was taken just a few weeks before the marriage of John Kerr and Jane Paterson....
Hmm...I wonder how frequently the boats sailed from Greenock "across the watter" ;D ;D
Looby :)
Possibly him as when he came to Australia he went straight out to Buninyong, Victoria, Australia where he would help build the town. He was listed as a Carpenter of Ballarat ,Victoria Australia in the 1903 Electrol Rolls.
But how is the best way to verify all this wonderful information?
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Inspired, Looby :-*
Monica
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Thanks Monica :-[
What does your expert eye make of this info?
Jill is asking how to confirm and I'm not sure how to direct her. Looking at the original OPR marriage entry on Scotland's People might help...then again it might disclose nothing. Same goes for the birth entry for baby Archibald??
I'm reasonably sure the Paterson family in Glasgow are Jane Paterson's parent's James Paterson and Margaret Murdoch with some of Jane's siblings and it certainly looks like Jane/Jean is in service in Rhu. But how does Jill confirm these are the same folk that head to Australia. I don't think she can be 100% sure.....
Looby :)
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Not sure about the expert bit :-[ more obsessive ;D
I don't think there is anything that can give 100% certainty really is there. With all these events as know before the start of official registration (from 1855), we can only make best guesses.
I think though with the great details from the death certs in Australia for John and Jean, with the exception of the name for John Kerr's father, everything mentioned here (specially with your finds Looby) certainly point to the families being discussed.
As you suggest Looby, Jill, maybe looking at some of the Old Parish Register entries might (or not, sadly) throw up some further clues. OPR entries, if you are lucky to find them, very often are no more that one lines on the registers with little info of value. However, just occasionally, you can find something that help with links.
Monica
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Not sure about the expert bit :-[ more obsessive ;D
It's a common complaint ;D ;D
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Hi Jill,
I've reread the info posted so far and have spotted a discrepancy. Charles Kerr (brother of John) looks to have ages 20 years between 1841-51. :D It looks like maybe the 1851 is mistranscribed and he should have been 18 as his birth is recorded as 1833- https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYM1-G4W
Charles and Robert Kerr are twins https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYM1-Z5J
The family also had a sister called Grace https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYM1-N5J but I've not been able to find her on 1841 census, maybe she had died :(
Grace Cumming on the 1841 looks as if she was indeed a grandchild of Archibald and Agnes - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XY9W-5D6. Mary Kerr was the oldest daughter of the couple.
I would reckon with the forenames and middle names used by the family in Australia, this family and the family of Paterson's who came from Ochiltree ( not far from Cumnock :) ) are the best candidates for your couple John and Jane Kerr's families. I know you have box maker as the occupation of Jane's father James and on the 1851 Census he's a hand loom weaver but it's very possible he had been a box maker. The area of Mauchline/Cumnock was well known for making boxes at this period, as you may already know. Just in case you don't here's a link to Mauchline Ware - http://www.mauchlinevillage.co.uk/ware.html.
James Paterson could have been one of many employed in this occupation but perhaps moved his family to Glasgow and changed jobs to try and better himself and his family's prospects :).
I still can't find the Paterson Family on 1841 Census ??? apart from Barbara and Andrew who as you know from your other thread are with their grandparents in Ochiltree.
Lastly Charles Kerr born 1833, John's brother may have emigrated too. To the USA. There is a Charles Karr resident in New Jersey, born 1833 Scotland with a wife and two children on the 1970 US Census. He's also on the 1880 as Charles Kerr https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MN8C-J14
with the occupation of Carpenter and a first born son Robert (after his twin??) . Of course it could be another Charles Kerr.....
Looby :)
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I don't have any info re the Kerr's but I can pass on some re the Patersons.
1841 Census - Cowgate, Mauchline
Jas Paterson b1790 Scotland - silk HLW
Janet Paterson (this is an error - should be Margaret) b 1796 Ayrshire
Andrew b1831 Ayrshire
Isabella b1833 Ayrshire
Catherin b1835 Ayrshire
Margaret b1837 Ayrshire
Sarah b1840 Ayrshire
Margaret b1829 Ayrshire
They then moved to Calton Glasgow 1851 and 1861 Censuses.
James had various occupations - mill employee, box maker and then HLW.
Margaret (Jane's mother) was the daughter of Andrew Murdoch mason b abt 1762 d2/11/1841 Ochiltree Mill and Elizabeth Baird b abt 1761. They were married 5/6/1784. Margaret Murdoch (Paterson) was born 17/12/1795 Ochiltree and died 22/11/1858 of peritonitis at 23 Stevenson Street, Glasgow Calton.
Hope this helps a little bit.
Boab3