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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: liverpool annie on Sunday 10 January 10 03:13 GMT (UK)
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I'm not sure where to post this ... my family are all over the place and I have a hard time keeping up with them ... but these Coopers are the bane of my life and I think I need some help please !! ::)
My prolific Great Great Grandparents William Cooper and Elizabeth Rowe were married 15th July 1833 Old Church St Pancras London - he was a Breeches Maker !
I have 1841 1851 1861 1871 ... though William died between 61 - 71 ... I'm trying to track down some of the children I have Alfred aged 5 in 1851 and I've just started on Edmund ( who both ended up in Lancashire !! ) ... but if anybody can see any of the others ... I'd be very grateful !
Thanking you in advance !
1851
Slaters Yard Knutsford Inferior Cheshire
William Cooper head M 43 Leather Breeches Maker Middlesex London
Elizabeth wife 40 Rickmansworth Herts
Edmund son 16 Gardener Middlesex
Charles son 13 Mddsx
Elizabeth daughter 10Mddsx
Maria daughter 9 Mddsx
Louisa daughter 8 Mddsx
Alfred son 5 Mddsx
Henry son 4 Knutsford Inf Cheshire
Ellen daughter 2 Knutsford Inf
John son 6mths Knutsford Inf
HO107 2163 409 52
1861 for William & Elizabeth - (good grief ! and more children !)
Nether Knutsford Cheshire Taylors Yard.
William Cooper head m 53 leather breeches maker Midd. St Marylebone
Elizabeth m 49 wife Herts Rickmansworth
Louisa dau u 17 pupil teacher Midd St George
Henry son u 14 scholar Ches. Knutsford
Ellen dau u 12 scholar Ches. Knutsford
John son u 10 scholar Ches. Knutsford
Daniel W son u 6 scholar Ches. Knutsford
Thomas F son u 3 scholar Ches. Knutsford
Emma dau u 1 Ches. Knutsford
RG9/2593 F 26 P2
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Hi Annie
This could be John ..
1871 Census England London St John the Evangelist St John Westminster
RG10/1119/37/24
30 Great Smith Street
COOPER
FrederickHeadMarr 54 Verger Middlesex Marylebone
Theresa Wife Marr 47 Hertfordshire Rickmansworth
John Nephew Unmarr 21 Tailor Cheshire Knutsford
Cheers
Karenlee
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1881 Census England London St Ann Soho
RG11/132/93/44
12 Church Street
COOPER
John Head Marr 30 Tailor Cheshire Knutsford
Lydia Wife Marr 28 Middlesex Somerstown
Sarah Ann TAYLOR Visitor Unmarrr 25 Brush Drawer Warwickshire Birmingham
Inkerman REYNOLDS Lodger Unmarr 26 General Labourer Essex Old Samford
Karenlee
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Hi Annie
This could be John ..
1871 Census England London St John the Evangelist St John Westminster
RG10/1119/37/24
30 Great Smith Street
COOPER
FrederickHeadMarr 54 Verger Middlesex Marylebone
Theresa Wife Marr 47 Hertfordshire Rickmansworth
John Nephew Unmarr 21 Tailor Cheshire Knutsford
Cheers
Karenlee
See what I mean ... they keep coming out of the woodwork .... :P
That Frederick must be a brother of William (that I didn't know about) ... and knowing my luck Theresa is probably related to Elizabeth !! ::)
Thanks Karenlee ... that does look like John ! :D
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1891 Census England London St Ann Soho
RG12/88/33/20
24 Church Street
COOPER
John Head Marr 40 Tailor Cheshire Knutsford
Lydia Wife Marr 38 London Camden Town
John Charles Son Unmarr 9 London Soho
1901 Census England London St John Westminster
RG13/91/108/3
1 Regency Street
COOPER
John Head Marr 50 Draper Cheshire Knutsford
Lydia Wife Marr 48 London Camden Town
John C Son Unmarr 19 Law Solicitors Clerk London Soho
Cheers
Karenlee
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Looking good for Daniel...
1881 Census England London St John the Evangelist Westminster
RG11/110/14/20
65 Millbank Street
COOPER
Daniel W Head Marr 26 Carpenter Cheshire Knutsford
Ellen Wife Marr 26 Somerset Trull
Ellen L Dau Unmarr 2 Middlesex Westminster
Daniel Son Unmarr 6mths Middlesex Westminster
Eliza C SAUNDERS Lodger Marr 56 Dress Maker At Sea British Subject
1891 Census England London Battersea West Battersea
RG12/434/124/17
119 Swingstone? Road
COOPER
Daniel W Head Wid 36 Carpenter Cheshire Knutsford
Ellen L Dau Unmarr 12 Scholar Middlesex Westminster
Daniel W Son Unmarr 10 Scholar Middlesex Westminster
Ethel Dau Unmarr 8 Scholar Surrey Battersea
Charles H son Unmarr 2 Surrey Battersea
Ann WEEDON Serv Unmarr 34 Domestic Servant Middlesex Pimlico
1901 Census England Surrey Sutton
RG13/581/88/25
11 Victoria Road
COOPER
Daniel Wm Head Marr 46 Builder's Foreman Cheshire Knutsford
Hannah Wife Marr 47 Somerset Blagdon
Daniel Wm Son Unmarr 20 Plumber London Westminster
Ethel Dau Unmarr 18 Surrey Battersea
Charles Henry Son Unmarr 12 Surrey Battersea
Karenlee
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Good grief ! ... you're on a roll Girl !! :o
Thank you very much !!
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Possible for Henry...
1881 Census England Cheshire Mobberley
RG11/3500/136/13
Town Lane
COOPER
Henry Head Marr 33 Plasterer's Labourer Cheshire Knutsford
Esther Wife Marr 28 Silk Piecer Norfolk Norwich
Arthur J H Son Unmarr 5 scholar Cheshire Mobberley
William H Son Unmarr 3 Scholar Cheshire Knutsford
Laura Dau Unmarr 1 Cheshire Mobberley
1891 Census England Lancashire Newton in Makerfield
RG12/3069/58/48
30 Santay? Street
COOPER
Henry Head Marr 44 General Labourer Cheshire Knutsford
Esther Wife Marr 37 Norfolk Norwich
Arthur Son Unmarr 15 Printer's Apprentice Cheshire Mabberley
William Son Unmarr 13 Cheshire Knutsford
Laura Dau Unmarr 11 Scholar Cheshire Mabberley
Walter Son Unmarr 6 Scholar Cheshire Earlestowe
1901 Census England Lancashire Eccles
RG13/3658/142/45
22 Chadwick Road
COOPER
Henry Head Marr 52 Wagon Coach Lifter? Maker Cheshire Knutsford
Esther Wife Marr 38 Norfolk Norwich
Arthur Son Unmarr 25 Wagon Coach Painter Cheshire Mabberley
Walter Son Unmarr 16 Stores Boy in Rolling Mill Cheshire Earlestowe
Laura WRAY Dau Marr 21 Cheshire Mabberley
Edmund WRAY Son In Law Marr 26 Tin and Coppersmith Cumberland Workington
Charles E WRAY Grandson Unmarr 1mth Lancashire Eccles
George H ALLEN Boarder Unmarr 32 Exhibiter of Working Models Cornwall Lemoran
Karenlee
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Good grief ! ... you're on a roll Girl !! :o
Thank you very much !!
More than happy to do this... not much more I can do for the moment.... :(
It appears that Emma lived with her mother Elizabeth in Knutsford until the 1891 Census.
FreeBMD has a death for Thomas Frederick COOPER 1869 aged 1 year.... might have been named for Frederick the Verger we found earlier.
Karenlee
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If he ends up in Newton at some time ... thats him !! :D
Lordy Girl ... and I was quaking at the thought of these guys and you're just rolling them off ... I can't tell you how happy I am !! :D
Thank you !
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This is the most likely for Charles that I can find so far... the presence of yet another Fred might be a big hint..
1881 Census England Cheshire Knutsford Inferior
RG11/3510/61/57
King Street
COOPER
Charles Head Marr 43 Warder in Prison London
Lavinia Wife Marr 21 Cheshire Crewe
Frances M STREET Step Daughter Unmarr 4 Scholar Cheshire Knutsford
Fred COOPER Son Unmarr 2mths Cheshire Knutsford
Next door were Waltham and Ellen STREET...might be something to do with Lavinia and Frances.
1891 Census England Cheshire Knutsford
RG12/2828/67/53
Love Lane County Terrace
COOPER
Charles Head Marr 53 Warder HM Prison Westminster London
Lavinia Wife Marr 29 Cheshire Crewe
Frances M Dau Unmarr 14 Dress Maker Cheshire Knutsford
Fred son Unmarr 10 Scholar Cheshire Knutsford
Gertrude Dau Unmarr 9 Scholar Cheshire Knutsford
Charles H Son Unmarr 1 Cheshire Knutsford
1901 Census England Cheshire Knutsford
RG13/3329/36/11
King Street
COOPER
Charles Head Marr 63 Caretaker Westminster
Lavinia Wife Marr 39 Cheshire Crewe
Frances M Dau Unamrr 23 Cheshire Knutsford
Fred Son Unmarr 20 Gardener Cheshire Knutsford
Gertrude Dau Unmarr 19 Cheshire Knutsford
Charles H Son Unmarr 11 Cheshire Knutsford
Ada Dau Unmarr 8 Cheshire Knutsford
Karenlee
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I wonder what prison is in Knutsford ?? ???
Looks like he married a young thing doesn't it ? ... wonder if he was married before ? ... I'll have to check that out !! :D
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Would you like the odd baptism/birthdate, Annie?
Dee :)
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:D :D :D
How lovely of you Dee ... thank you - I wouldn't mind !! :D
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There's these.....
Chn of Daniel William (carpenter) and Ellen COOPER, of 119 Livingstone Rd, St Peter Battersea……
Ethel born 30th Jan 1883 and baptised 4th March 1883
Henry Richard born 17th May 1886 and baptised 4th July 1886
Henry Charles born 21st May 1888 and baptised 17th June 1888
Daniel Ernest born 31 Dec 1890 and baptised 22nd Feb 1891
Dee :)
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I wonder about this one…..
Edmund Curtis COOPER baptised December 14th 1834 at All Soul’s, Langham Place, Westminster. Born 10th October 1834.
Son of William COOPER, tailor, and Elizabeth of 24 Union St.
I can't see any of the others that have been listed...... :(
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I wonder about this one…..
Edmund Curtis COOPER baptised December 14th 1834 at All Soul’s, Langham Place, Westminster. Born 10th October 1834.
Son of William COOPER, tailor, and Elizabeth of 24 Union St.
I can't see any of the others that have been listed...... :(
Yes ... he's mine !! I have him !! :D
But I didn't have the others Dee ... thank you !
Annie :)
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This might be Maria.. interesting combination of occupations her hubby has.... ;D
1871 Census England London Islington
RG10/301/50/25
Brougham Road
POWELL
Alfred W Head Marr 29 Well Sinker and Baker Middlesex Islington
Maria Wife Marr 28 Middlesex Westminster
Elizabeth A Dau Unmarr 5 Scholar Cheshire Knutsford
Charles Son Unmarr 3 Scholar Middlesex Islington
Theresa Dau Unmarr 4mths Middlesex Islington
1881 Census England London St Mary Islington Islington East
RG11/278/53/5
15 Blenheim Road
POWELL
Alfred W Head Marr 38 General Labourer Hornsey Road
Maria Wife Marr 37 Cheshire Knutsford
Charles Son Unmarr 13 Hornsey Road
Theresa Dau Unmarr 10 Hornsey Road
Alice Dau Unmarr 8 Hornsey Road
Joseph Son Unmarr 6 Hornsey Road
David Son Unmarr 4 Hornsey Road
1891 Census England London Islington Upper Holloway
RG12/145/47/19
20 Nicholby? Road
POWELL
Maria Head Wid 40 Charwoman London Westminster
Joseph Son Unmarr 15 London Islington
David Son Unmarr 14 Errand Boy London Islington
Liddia Dau Unmarr 8 Scholar London Islington
John CHUBB Lodger Unmarr 30 Shoemaker Hertforshire Buzzard
There is a possible Maria POWELL in Lancashire 1901, very hard to read the entry. It looks like her occupation is Ironer and Washer... birthplace is given as Pimlico. There is an adopted son names Arthur HAGAN aged 15 born Manchester Lanc.
Cheers
Karenlee
PS Hey Dee
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Okay... in light of your PM stating Maria died 1895... ignore the one in Lanc then. Thought it might be a possible since some of the boys ended up there.
Karenlee
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Just took a peak at Maria and Alfred W's marriage certificate... witnesses were Frederick COOPER and Elizabeth COOPER.
Wonder if this is the Verger we found earlier, and is that her sister Elizabeth. Wonder if I should be looking for a marriage for her in London too??
Karenlee
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Where did you find that ? ... I've been looking in Lancashire and Cheshire !! :P
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In London... Islington to be exact.. wanna see it?? ;D ;D ;D
Silly question huh??
It's on it's way to you as we type ;D ;D
Karenlee
Got the Banns too.
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You know whats weird ? ... I lived in Islington when I first got married and I know those streets !! :o
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There is an Elizabeth COOPER married in London, daughter of a William COOPER whose occupation was given as Tailor.... wonder if Breeches Maker also equals Tailor??
Karenlee
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Yes ! that was on Edmunds !!
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Okay then... there is a possible marriage for Elizabeth. I will get the details for you and post them. Will also follow up on the Census and hope that something comes up there to prove it.
Karenlee
PS... Leather Breeches Maker... are you sure they were not from Germany.... you know... Lederhosen and all that.. ;D ;D ;D
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Did they really wear leather then ? wonder if he was a posh tailor working with leather or whether he was a lower echelon just doing the bits the proper tailors didn't like to do ?
I'll have to look it up !! :D
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So far the only POWELL baptism I can find is for Charles...
St Mary Hornsey Rise ( perhaps that's what the Census said and not Hornsey ROAD ?)
Baptised Feb 23rd 1868
Born Dec 27th 1867
Parents = Alfred William and Maria POWELL
Address = Blenheim Road
Occupation = Will Sinker
Will keep looking
Karenlee
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One more... mother transcribed as MERIA...so didn't find her first time around..
POWELL Theresa
Same church
Baptism 24th Sept 1871 no birth date given
Parents = Alfred William and Maria POWELL
Address = Brougham Road
Occupation = Well Sinker
Must be more there somewhere
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Okay... on going back to the 1861 Census... I find that Thomas Frederick is actually Theresa Fanny.....
So another girl to find....
This looks like it might be her in 1871.. with some other COOPER family in the house.. but no relation obviously..
1871 Census England Cheshire Tabley Superior
RG10/3687/156/14
Manchester Road
In the household of Elizabeth OGDEN, wife of a Cabinet Maker, her daughter Clara married to Robert Owen COOPER...
COOPER Theresa Fanny Serv Unmarr 13 Nursemaid Knutsford Cheshire
Karenlee
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1881 Census England Devon Sandford
RG11/2231/105/19
Creedy House
In the household of Henry R F DAVIE Barrister and Magistrate
COOPER Theresa F Serv Unmarr 23 Kitchenmaid Knutsford Cheshire
Theresa Fanny COOPER married George BONE March Quarter 1883 Watford Hertfordshire.
1891 Census England Hertfordshire St Stephen
RG12/1116/141/10
Bricket Wood
BONE
George Head Marr 35 Coachman Domestic Servant Herfordshire Watford
Theresa Fanny Wife Marr 33 Cheshire Knutsford
Nellie Dau Unmarr 7 Scholar Hertfordshire St Stephens
Edwin Son Unmarr 5 Scholar Hertfordshire St Stephens
George Son Unmarr 3 Scholar Hertfordshire St Stephens
Emily Dau Unmarr 2 Hertfordshire St Stephens
Alice Mary Dau Unmarr 1 Hertfordshire St Stephens
Theresa Dau Unmarr 3mths Hertfordshire St Stephens
Looks like Theresa must have died...
1901 Census England Hertfordshire Watford Watford
RG13/1318/76/7
9 Smith Street
BONE
George Head Marr 45 Coachman Domestic Hertfordshire Watford
Mary Wife Marr 48 Cumberland Penrith
Ralph Son Unmarr 8 Hertfordshire Wartford
Emily Dau Unmarr12 Hertfordshire Watford
Alice M Dau Unmarr 11 Hertfordshire Watford
John PEARSON Nephew Unmarr 21 Ironmonger Cumberland Penrith
Frederick d HOARE Visitor Wid 51 Coachman Groom not Domestic Berkshire
Karenlee
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Karenlee ...
I am such an "old procrastinator" ..... I just haven't wanted to face that list for a few years ... just concentrated on my direct line ..... and here you knocked it off in a night !! Amazing !
I am very grateful !
And to Dee too for finding baptisms I didn't have !!
Annie :)
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"Tis me ....... !! "
I have 2 questions ... apart from trying to find the original Williams ( the father of all these children ! ) death ... which I'm going to have to be patient about !! ::) ::) ::) :P
the other one is ... could somebody direct me on how to find his parents ?
I believe they are William and Elizabeth Cooper ... (yeah I know !!) ... but I also believe her maiden name was Lardner ( though I originally believed it was John and Ester Cooper )
I have searched high and low for both couples but I've had no luck ... could you please shove me in the right direction ??
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Boo!!
Found ya.
Okay, did he die in the UK.... and it was between the 1861 and 1871 census from memory?
Karenlee
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Hiya !
In 1861 he was at this address Nether Knutsford Cheshire Taylors Yard - in 1871 - the family were here .... King St at Back Knutsford Cheshire ... no William ..... Elizabeth widow !
So somewhere in there he died ..... !! :-\
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There's a William COOPER died Sept Qtr 1864 Cheshire Altrincham... which is the district that Knutsford is under....could be who you are after...??
Karenlee
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What was that other date you saw ?? :-\ was that 1864 ?
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Aug 20th 1864 I do believe.
As to parents... if we go right back to my very first post, 'lo those many days ago ;D, I found Frederick COOPER the verger born about 1819 in Marylebone....
1841 Census England Middlesex St Marylebone Christchurch
HO107/677/30/52
New Street
COOPER
John 65 Coachman born in County
Elizabeth 45 not born in County
Frederick 22 Porh squiggle Psquiggle born in Counthy
Caroline 20 Milliner born in County
Ann 16 Milliner born in County
Harriet 15 Wood Engraver? born in County
Karenlee
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Thats his brother ... Frederick the verger that is ... ;) William was married by then ... so I have a combination ... any two names from four ... ::) and neither of them with who I thought they'd be with .... :P
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That Frederick must be a brother of William (that I didn't know about) ... and knowing my luck Theresa is probably related to Elizabeth !! ::)
Errr... Hmmm :o :o :o
COOPER Frederick and ROWE Theresa married Dec Qtr 1858 Westminster....
Karenlee
running and ducking for cover.... ;D ;D
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I KNEW IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o :o :D
Well at least I have her family tree sorted out already !!
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Found the Marriage for Elizabeth LARDNER and William COOPER
Westminster St Marylebone
William COOPER of this Parish, Bachelor, and Elizabeth LARDNER of the same Parish, Spinster.
Married in this Church by Banns on this 8th day of May in the Year 1807.
Witnesses were Elizabeth HAYES and Joseph PINGLEY?? I think
Karenlee
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What d'you think ? ...... I'm not sure .... I'm torn now !! :P
Would Fredericks marriage be in the same place you found the banns ? that might give us a clue ...
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No marriage or banns for Frederick and Theresa.... just the FreeBMD index ref I quoted before...
William COOPER and Elizabeth ROWE come up but not Fred and Theresa. And it's just a Parish Record, so no parents mentioned.
Darn It
Karenlee
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I am going through the London Baptisms to see what I can find for parents William and Elizabeth nee LARDNER.
There is one which very helpfully quotes mmn for Elizabeth.... a daughter Mary Ann... I will see who else is there.
Karenlee
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No marriage or banns for Frederick and Theresa.... just the FreeBMD index ref I quoted before...
William COOPER and Elizabeth ROWE come up but not Fred and Theresa. And it's just a Parish Record, so no parents mentioned.
Darn It
Karenlee
Thats a bummer !! :-\
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Going back to the 1841 there is a Frederick with mother Elizabeth but no father.... in Bethnal Green... might be useful to track..... brother Thomas and sister Mary still at home too.
Father might have been William but might have died.
Karenlee
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Okay.
I can't find both a William and a Frederick to a John and Esther... or a John and Elizabeth....
BUT
I can find a William COOPER born 27 Jan 1808 and bapt 26 Feb 1808 St Mary Marylebone. Parents William and Elizabeth COOPER
I can find a Frederick COOPER born 25 Aug 1816 and bapt 15 Sept 1816 St Mary Marylebone Westminster. Parents William and Elizabeth COOPER.
Still looking
Karenlee
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I found William but not Frederick ..... :D
William COOPER
Birth - 27 JAN 1808
Christening - 26 FEB 1808
Saint Mary-St Marylebone Road, Saint Marylebone, London
Father - William COOPER
Mother - Elizth
And Elizabeth ...
Elizabeth COOPER
Birth - 04 JAN 1810
Christening - 04 FEB 1810
Saint Mary-St Marylebone Road, Saint Marylebone, London
Father - William COOPER
Mother - Elizabeth
And Charles
Charles COOPER
Birth - 11 FEB 1814
Christening - 06 MAR 1814
Saint Mary-St Marylebone Road, Saint Marylebone, London, England
Father - William COOPER
Mother - Elizabeth
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Not getting anywhere fast here.
Do know that William and Elizabeth nee Lardner has two daughters - Mary Ann 1813 Holy Trinity Clapham Lambeth and Emma 1816 St Leonard Streatham Lambeth... because it was so helpfully written on the Baptism entry that Mother's maiden name was LARDNER...
Why can't they all be that considerate...?? ;D
Karenlee
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So they moved to Lambeth ? ... I've got a feeling these are the right two ... don't you ?
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St Marylebone Westminster
Mary COOPER born 25 Jan 1820 bapt 13 Feb 1820
William and Elizabeth COOPER
Occupation given as Trade.
Same church
Emily COOPER born Aug 10 1822 bapt Sept 1 1822
William and Elizabeth COOPER
Occupation same
Same Church
Robert COOPER born March 18 1824 Bapt April 10
William and Elizabeth COOPER
Foley Place
Occuaption same
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I found Emma !! :D .... that church gave the maiden names on a regular basis .... what a concept ??
Emma COOPER
Birth - 19 JUL 1816
Christening - 18 AUG 1816
Holy Trinity, Clapham Surrey
Father - William COOPER
Mother - Elizabeth LARDNER
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I'm tellin' you .... these Coopers ..... they love to have babies !! :o :o
Though I'm seriously wondering if this is TWO William and Elizabeths ..... :P
Edit ... they're in Westminster - then they go to Lambeth - then they go back to Westminster ??? does that sound funny to you ?
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Nah it fits.
They married 1807 then had...
William 1808
Elizabeth 1810
Mary Ann 1813
Charles 1814
Frederick 1816
Emma 1818
Mary 1820
Emily 1822
Robert 1824
That's only 9 children in about 16 years, not that hard to credit really.
Not that I'm volunteering to test the theory mind :o :o ;D
Karenlee
EDIT... moving around... not really anything strange there either. People moved where the work was mostly. Then they could have come back to be closer to family, especially as both of them were from around that area.
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I'm so glad TV was invented before I decided to have children ....... ::) ::) ::)
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My Mum was one of 13, and she was born 1933 and was second last in line... so they were still doing it.
Which reminds me.. my cousin has 8.... okay, she cheated, they had 2 multiple births ( natural and unplanned twins and quads ).
Karenlee
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Right... moving on....
Not sure if this is your guy or not.. but he seems to fit what we think we know....
1861 Census England Middlesex St Margaret
RG9/54/27/57
Buckingham Street
COOPER
Charles Head Marr 48 Waiter Middlesex London
Philadelphia Wife Marr 38 Waiter's Wife Sussex Westfield
Philadelphia Dau Unmarr 7 Surrey Southwark
Charles J Son Unmarr 5 Scholar Middlesex Westminster
George J Son Unmarr 3 Middlesex Westminster
1871 Census England London St Margaret
RG10/128/84/26
Buckingham Street
COOPER
Charles Head Marr 58 Hall? Porter London
Philadelphia Wife Marr 48 London
Philadelphia L Dau Unmarr 19 Scholar London
George Son Unmarr 13 Hall? Boy London
Frederick E Son Unmarr 6 Scholar London
1881 Census England London St Margaret
RG11/119/15/24
6 Buckingham Street
COOPER
Charles Head Marr 68 Hall Porter City of London
Philadelphia Wife Marr 58 Westfield Sussex
Charles John Son Unmarr 25 Cab Proprietor Pimlico London
Frederick Son Unmarr 16 Clerk Pimlico London
Philadelphia Dau Unmarr 17 Telegraph Clerk Civil Service Pimlico London
G. W. GARRETT Lodger Unamrr 29 Bricklayer Southampton
Philadelphia died 1881 and Charles in 1889. In 1891 Frederick and Philadelphia were living together. Philadelphia died Fulham 1837. Still following up on the other children
What do you think??
Are we stabbing in the dark??
Karenlee
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Philadelphia died 1881 and Charles in 1889. In 1891 Frederick and Philadelphia were living together. Philadelphia died Fulham 1837
Is this three different scenerios ? ::) or did you mean ....
1. Philadelphia died 1881 and Charles in 1889
2. You gave me a bit of a start there for a minute ... I thought you meant Frederick the Verger and Philadelphia ( the mother) were living together !!!!!!!!! :o :o :o :o (I hope you mean the brother and sister F and P !!)
3. and I think maybe you meant P the daughter died 1937 !
I'd say this Charles in the census was a strong contender for sure .... I'll keep him close by !! :D
I love it that Philadelphia is a "waiters wife" !!!! ;)
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Dear oh dear... so sorry....
It was getting a bit hectic around here when I posted that one... Mr Karenlee had just wandered in from the coal face and the kids were destroying the kitchen making dinner. ;D ;D ;D
The P that died in 1881 was wife of Charles, who died 1889.
The P and F living together in 1891 were the brother and sister.
This is not F the Verger. I think he was named after F the Verger who would have been his uncle. Charles senior ( who married Philadelphia ) is brother to Fred the verger who married Theresa ( sister of Elizabeth ) and brother to your William ( husband of Elizabeth ) who we think died in 1864 in mysterious circumstances.
With me now ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Thats what I thought !! ;D
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So, if this is the right family, then we have William, Charles and Frederick..... oh, we only have Frederick on the 1871 with his nephew John.... must rectify that and post the others.
So we need to find Robert and the 5 girls..... good thing I didn't have any plans for the next week or two. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Karenlee
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Heres the list ... :D Red denotes done !! ;) .... it's the girls that always gives us grief !! :-\
William 1808
Elizabeth 1810
Mary Ann 1813
Charles 1814
Frederick 1816
Emma 1818
Mary 1820
Emily 1822
Robert 1824
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Right...here's Fred the Verger... and just coz I ca, I'm gonna go backwards with him ;D ;D
1891 Census England London St John the Evangelist Westminster
RG12/78/14/21
23 Tufton Street
COOPER
Frederick Head Marr 74 Retired Verger London Marylebone
Theresa Wife Marr 67 Hertfordshire Rickmansworth
Ernest W Grandson Unmarr 20 Postman Suffolk Blaxall
William H LIGHT Boarder Unmarr 22 Brewer's Clerk Somerset Bath
1881 Census England London St John the Evangelist Westminster
RG11/111/90/36
23 Tufton Street
COOPER
Frederick Head Marr 64 Verger Middlesex Marylebone
Theresa Wife Marr 57 Hertfordshire Rickmansworth
Ernest William Grandson Unmarr 10 Scholar Suffolk Blaxall
They married in 1858 so should be on the 1861 but as yet I can't find them.
Karenlee
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these Coopers are the bane of my life
had to larf at that. Mrs Earleybird looks after an elderly lady whose favourite sentence is
" that cat is the bane of my life!" ;D
I've followed this thread with mounting interest and wonder if your Coopers and Mine are related ?
Most seem to be born in or around Westminster/ St George Hanover Sq .between 1850 and 1911 Maybe we could compare notes ;)
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In 1861 I can find a Frederick COOPER married to an Amy from Rickmansworth.
Could this be Theresa?? Did she have a middle name... or ... heaven forbid... was there another sister Amy?? :o
earley-bird.... pretty much all of it is here on this thread..... ;D
Karenlee
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Tell us who you have earlybird ... and we'll tell you if we have them !! ;D
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In 1861 I can find a Frederick COOPER married to an Amy from Rickmansworth.
Could this be Theresa?? Did she have a middle name... or ... heaven forbid... was there another sister Amy?? :o
Karenlee
Please no ! :P ... see I keep saying Karenlee ... my intention was to just do direct line ... but then I get sidetracked with all the brothers and sisters and we're not just talking one or two brothers and sisters ... theres boatloads of them in every family !!!!!!!!!!!! ::)
So to answer your question about Amy .... we have Elizabeth ( direct line ) back to 1580 ... NOT the whole kit and kaboobble of them !!
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It was just kind of confusing is all... I mean, we have them in 1881 with a 10 year old grandson, but they only married in 1858. So to my way of thinking, Theresa must have been wife #2 at least. So perhaps Frederick only had children with whoever wife #1 was....
The Amy and Fred that I found turn out to be COWPER not COOPER.... :(
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Please no ! :P ... see I keep saying Karenlee ... my intention was to just do direct line ... but then I get sidetracked with all the brothers and sisters and we're not just talking one or two brothers and sisters ... theres boatloads of them in every family !!!!!!!!!!!! ::)
So to answer your question about Amy .... we have Elizabeth ( direct line ) back to 1580 ... NOT the whole kit and kaboobble of them !!
So does this mean you want me to stop ;D ;D ;D
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And of course the Grandson could have been born anywhere !! ::)
EDIT .... H*** no ! ... this is too exciting !! ;D ;D ;D ( ..... only if you're fed up !! :-\ )
EDIT # 2 ... wonder which church he was Verger at ?? ::)
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Tell us who you have earlybird ... and we'll tell you if we have them !! ;D
how about these ?
3 Romney Street.
1901
James W Cooper 41 Westminster Head St John and St Margaret Carman
Jane L Cooper 39 Westminster Wife St J & St M Charwoman
William J Cooper 19 Westminster Son St J & St M Carman
Frederick Cooper 17 Westminster Son St J & St M Carman
Annie Cooper 15 Westminster Daughter St J & St M
Ellen J Cooper 10 Westminster Daughter St J & St M
Edith E Cooper 4 Westminster Daughter St J & St M
Miriam Cooper 8 Westminster Daughter St J & St M
RG13/91
Registration district St George Hanover Square
Sub-registration district St Margaret and St John
Folio 39
Page 39
schedule number 336
or these
1891
33 Neal , St Giles in the Fields London
William H Cooper (29) Denton, Warwickshire
Anna R Cooper (30) St Giles, London
Annie Sarah Cooper (6) St Giles, London
William J Cooper (7) St Giles, London
Albert A Cooper (4) Portsmouth
Mary S Cooper (2) Portsmouth
or maybe these in 1871
14 Victoria Yard, Chelsea
RG10/77
Registration district Chelsea Sub-reg Chelsea South
Folio 71 page 45
William G Cooper 33 St G Hanover Square Head
Susan Cooper 31 Westminster Wife
James W Cooper 11 Westminster Son
John Cooper 9 Westminster Son
Susan Cooper 5 Westminster Daughter
Elizabeth Cooper 2 WestminsterDaughter
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Both 1881 and 1891 show grandson born Suffolk and there is a Ernest Frederick born there in 1869 which seems most likely.
H*** no is about right... what would I do for the rest of the day?? Just sit here and stare at the wall?? :P
Karenlee
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Tell us who you have earlybird ... and we'll tell you if we have them !! ;D
how about these ?
3 Romney Street.
1901
James W Cooper 41 Westminster Head St John and St Margaret Carman
Jane L Cooper 39 Westminster Wife St J & St M Charwoman
William J Cooper 19 Westminster Son St J & St M Carman
Frederick Cooper 17 Westminster Son St J & St M Carman
Annie Cooper 15 Westminster Daughter St J & St M
Ellen J Cooper 10 Westminster Daughter St J & St M
Edith E Cooper 4 Westminster Daughter St J & St M
Miriam Cooper 8 Westminster Daughter St J & St M
RG13/91
Registration district St George Hanover Square
Sub-registration district St Margaret and St John
Folio 39
Page 39
schedule number 336
or these
1891
33 Neal , St Giles in the Fields London
William H Cooper (29) Denton, Warwickshire
Anna R Cooper (30) St Giles, London
Annie Sarah Cooper (6) St Giles, London
William J Cooper (7) St Giles, London
Albert A Cooper (4) Portsmouth
Mary S Cooper (2) Portsmouth
I bet they're related somehow ... all the family names are there .... but how I have no idea earlybird !! :-\ but no Warwickshire ..... !! ( at least not yet !! )
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Both 1881 and 1891 show grandson born Suffolk and there is a Ernest Frederick born there in 1869 which seems most likely.
H*** no is about right... what would I do for the rest of the day?? Just sit here and stare at the wall?? :P
Karenlee
I thought his name was Ernest William - the Grandson 1871 ... am I looking for the wrong one ?... I have to go back and check !!
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I bet they're related somehow ... all the family names are there .... but how I have no idea earlybird !! :-\ but no Warwickshire ..... !! ( at least not yet !! )
well that sure was one-way ;D
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No it was given as Ernest William, but turns out it's Ernest Frederick.. which makes sense.
There is a marriage for an Ernest Frederick born 1871-ish in Streatham Lambeth 1918. Father is William COOPER Dec. a wholesale milliner. This Ernest Frederick was a Foreign Commercial Traveller.
Hang in there earley-bird, as Annie said, this lot had truckloads of kids, and we're only just scrapping the surface here... there'll be a link... just you wait... ;D
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RIGHT
I give up on Ernest Frederick/Ernest William for the moment.
Going round in circles with him.
Think I'll go find Robert instead... that should be heaps easier......NOT :o :o :o :o
Karenlee
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Big sigh ....... ::) do we know this Elizabeth ? is this another generation maybe ? probably not even ours huh ??
Elizabeth COOPER
Christening - 23 MAR 1755
Old Church, Saint Pancras, London
Father - WILLIAM COOPER
Mother - ELIZABTH.
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Sheesh woman.... I'm still fighting with the 1800's COOPERS.... and you want me to deal with a 1700's COOPER..... ::) ::) ;D ;D
Karenlee
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I only arsked !! :D :D
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Yeah Yeah
Heard it all before ya know!! ;D
Took a break for lunch and have only just made it back....
There is a Robert COOPER that fits the birth date and place for ours..... I found him on only one census and he was listed as a Greenwich Pensioner.... been looking at them... they are the naval version of the Chelsea Pensioner......
Interesting stuff... but I suppose I best get back to it....
Karenlee
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1861 Census England Middlesex Islington Islington East
RG9/143/22/37
King Henry Street
COOPER
Robert Head Marr 36 Greenwich Pensioner London Marylebone
Elizabeth Wife Marr 32 London St Giles
Elizabeth Dau Unmarr 7 Scholar St Clement Dane London
Robert Son Unmarr 2 St Judes London
Alfred Son Unmarr 3mths St Judes London
Still trying to fnd any of this family on later Census.....
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found this William Cooper Publican for 24 years of the George IV 50 High Street Brentford.1870 -1894
http://deadpubs.co.uk/Middlesex/Brentford/GeorgeIV.shtml
not sure if it is of any interest but its an interesting site with free census info
Also this J. Cooper 24 (porter) born 1857 at 5 George St Spitalfields 1881 looks like some sort of workhouse.
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/CensusHouseholdSearchServlet?uir=468c1d6bb11f06cc&lineNo=21&lineNoSuffix=0&UIRStamp=371c71a5c90f94c47c9f2fc20c9ecb8f4c474211111794ce301125d4ff5f99699ab00bad84ce37d5&pagetype=6
another reference Louisa Cooper of islington had 17 children phew married to Thomas Lucas .
http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-2383.html
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Only 17. Louisa really let the side down in the reproductive stakes then didn't she? ;D ;D ;D ;D
Karenlee
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This is a very interesting discussion, and may be oblique to my interests, but let me pose the following. "My" William A Cooper was born in Cheshire in 1806 and I think his parents were John Cooper and Ann Leather. His sisters were Elizabeth(1805) and Sarah (1807).
He married Esther Wise in Wolverhampton on Oct 14, 1833. I can find nothing about Esther Wise, perhaps because she may have been Jewish and those records may have been kept separately somewhere.
William's children were Thomas(1840) and Eliza (1841). Ann Cooper (1835) did not survive to the 1841 census. William Washington Cooper was born in 1841 but after the census.
In 1844, William A Cooper and family emigrated to America, to Burrell Township in Westmoreland County, Pennsylvania.
I am interested in an information on John Cooper and Ann Leather, and more important any information about Esther Wise. Thank you for any tips
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Hi Karen,
I have some detail on the service of a Greenwich out-Pensioner named Robert Cooper.
Regards, GP
http://sites.google.com/site/greenwichadmiraltyinpensioner/out-pensioner-research---a-case-study