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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Tephra on Tuesday 12 January 10 09:21 GMT (UK)
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Toni's got a doozy for you this week.....just the thing to keep you warm while you're stuck inside.
Please read post 1 and 2 before you do anything else.
Good Luck and Good Hunting.
Barbara
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Warren Ingram b. 1858 Marton Leicester
1861 with parents
1871 with parents
1881 visiting the Gibson family at 110 Chippenham Road Kensignton
1890 Q2 marries Ellen Culmer Hackney 1b 788
1891 is residing in HMP Wandsworth
Because of arson and insurance fraud the papers can be viewed on the Old Bailey website
Feb 9th 1891
Warren dies 1934 Q1 age 76 Islington 1b 239
Also indicted are Ellen Ingram nee Culmer her mother Ellen Wheeler, Ellens brother George and younger brother Frederick
I am trying to make sense of these papers i.e. note all their aliases and address in the correct order
I cannot find any of the Culmers on previous census – I do want to – their ages as given on the 9th Feb 1891 are
Ellen (& her mother) in 1911 are in HMP Wandsworth
Warren is my OH actual relative but I want to build up a better picture of his wifes family not necessarily go back further than Ellens mother but to go forward if possible as George was said to be married and there is mention of a child a boy but to whom did he belong Warren & Ellen or George and his wife – who was Georges wife
You will need to read and reread the papers on the Old Bailey site as you will get confused.
George Culmers partner in crime is / was Frederick Whitehead he does not appear to get charged presumably because he gave an awful lot of evidence against George in court.
Ellen Ingram nee Culmer did not appear to be ‘at home’ with Warren much and was said to have a fancy man George Loveday – whether this be true or not I don’t know George Loveday was married with 8 children of his own.
I have read and reread the papers and am now in the process of picking out the details – as I said before I would like to complete this and to also find out more details re Ellen Culmers immediate family mother – father step father is a possibility as her mother Ellen has a different surname she also has aliases Kate Cranley & Lousia Corrie spring to mind also Ellens brother George & younger brother Frederick are there more siblings?
Who is the child ‘boy’ that is mentioned? I think he is aged between 4 & 10 who are his parents ? I cannot find the Culmer sin any census other than when they are residing at her majeysteys pleasure in Wandsworth , after 1891 I cannot find Warren until his detah in 1934
The Old Bailey ref’s are (date 9th Feb 1891)
227. WARREN INGRAM, Feloniously setting fire to a dwelling-house, with intent to injure and defraud. Third Count, for setting fire to goods in the dwelling-house.
221. GEORGE CULMER (25) , Feloniously setting fire to a dwelling-house, with intent to injure and defraud. Third Count, for setting fire to the goods in the dwelling-house.
224. GEORGE LOVEDAY (44), GEORGE CULMER (25), and ELLEN WHEELER (70) (indicted with Ellen Ingram, not in custody), Feloniously setting fire to a dwelling-house at Walthamstow, with intent to injure and defraud.
305. GEORGE CULMER (25), RICHARD CAPSEY (30), GEORGE LOVEDAY (44), and ELLEN WHEELER (70), were indicted for unlawfully conspiring to cheat and defraud certain fire insurance companies.
223. ELLEN WHEELER, alias INGRAM (70) , Feloniously setting fire to a dwelling-house at Walthamstow, Essex, on 9th October, 1890, with intent to injure and defraud.
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So far I have deduced :
Warren Ingram
An omnibus driver, in the employment of the London Road-Car Company—he comes off duty late at night, I believe about midnight; I do not know his hours
He came home as a rule about twelve or a little later, and left at a few minutes to eight in the morning
Warren Ingram received a good character from an inspector of the Road-Car Company
Was found guilty of feloniously setting fire to a dwelling-house, with intent to injure and defraud. Third Count, for setting fire to goods in the dwelling-house and sentenced to 12 months hard labour – was at Wandsworth Prison in 1891 census (5th April 1891)
12 Albert Hill Stanford transferred from here to 18 Charles St Tottenham
Feb 1886 18 Charles Street Tottenham, (fire occurred there 4th April 1886)
9th October 1886 138 Caledonian Road
October 1887 (insurance) policy transferred to 8 Chesham Road, Fulham and from there to Arkley Road
9th April 1889- July 1889 resided 34 Arkley Road Walthamstow (fire occurred there on 14th June 1889) (resided with Mrs. Wheeler- mother in law, and Mrs. Ingram - wife)
Aug 1890 - 21st November 1890 residing at 31 St James Road, Barnsbury (21st Nov was when he was arrested in Caledonian Rd) (Ellen took the room for him [Warren] but he lived there, Ellen was there a handful of times)
5th April 1891, 1891 census HMP Wandsworth
Ellen Ingram nee Culmer
Known as Lucy Ingram whilst living at 34 Arkley Road
Mrs. E. Ingram, District Post Office, Essex Road, London, England posted from Melbourne – from letter found on Warren Ingram on his arrest on 21st November 1890
12 Albert Hill Stamford transferred from here to 18 Charles Street Tottenham on 10th March 1886 – insurance claimed 6th April 1886 in the name of Ellen & William Ingram
George Culmer
Aged 25 on 9th Feb 1891
Charged with , Feloniously setting fire to a dwelling-house, with intent to injure and defraud. Third Count, for setting fire to the goods in the dwelling-house.
Was said to have a wife
Aliases:
George Franklin
George Wilson
Herbert Brown
(Easter 1889-Christmas 1889) 6th Sept 1889 – 22 Church Road, Southgate Road Islington (insurance policy transferred to 97 Tredegar Rd Bow on 31st Oct.1889)
policy in respect of furniture at 22, Church Road, Islington, dated 29th June, 1889, by Herbert Brown—on February 8th, 1890, that policy was transferred by endorsement to furniture at 250, Tufnell Park Road—on 12th February we received notice that a fire had taken place there,
Oct 1889 97, Tredegar Road, Bow – circa 3 weeks later there was a fire (10th November)
29th November 1889 insurance policy transferred to 44, Richmond Gardens, Hammersmith (in the name of F. Wilson)
Nov 1889 44 Richmond Gardens Hammersmith (fire there 18th Dec 1889)
April/ May - June 1890 5 Dalton Street Peckham (fire 1st June 1890)
5th June 1890 (mainly Frederick Whitehead) 61, Beresford Road, Walworth
23rd August 1890 using the name of (George) Franklin took 2 rooms from Mary Kinsol, at 27 Woodstock Rd Shepherds Bush. Fire occurred there on 3rd September at about 9.15 that evening. Remained there for 3 weeks after fire.
several fires that he had figured in, Clyde Road, Tottenham, Winchester Street, King's Cross, another, Southwark Bridge Road, and Tredegar Road, Bow
Frederick Culmer
Younger brother of George Culmer & Ellen Culmer also known as Frederick Wilson
Frederick Whitehead
Warehouseman by trade
Known George Culmer for 12 years also knows brother Frederick and other family members
Aka Frederick English
Feb 1891 – lives at 66 Ridley Road, Dalton
16th Dec 1889 44 Richmond Gardens , Shepherds Bush – fire here 18th Dec
Nov 1889 133 St Johns Road, Hoxton (fire Dec 1889)
Oct 1889 – 106 Spa Road, Bermondsey
thats as far as i have got.
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Morning :)
I think now that it is a possibility that their surname could be Colmer
Feb 1891 George is said to be 25 thus making him born circa 1866
Frederick is younger
Ellen i have no idea of her age - recheck 1911 census!
and their mother Ellen is said to be 70
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Im here Toni.....Just gonna read through :) :)
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Have you noticed.......It's Toni's own Scavenger Hunt and she STILL gets here first!!!! ;D ;D
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Have you noticed.......It's Toni's own Scavenger Hunt and she STILL gets here first!!!! ;D ;D
i just thought that ;D ;D
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i cant find Ellen on the 1911 census now - sorry so just ignore that bit please
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Ay up, mmmorning all.... ;D
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Morning Lesanne............now get to work......... ;D ;D ;D
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I hope I haven’t scared everyone off with the amount of reading I didn’t want anyone to duplicate things or waste their time :) it is quite confusing as you can see
1891 census RG12; 451; 73; 2
HMP Wandsworth 34 Prisoner b. Belton Rutland
Warren Ingram
1891 census RG12; 44; 157; 32;
Wormwood Scrubs
Geo Culmer 25 Prisoner b. Haggerston London
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Hi Toni
Could this be Warren in 1901? Age out but he's a boarder so anything can happen, also single but that may well be understandable :D
51 Whiskin St Clerkenwell
Susannah Smith Head Wid 49 Living on own means London Houndsditch
Warren Ingram Boarder S 36 Carman Rutland NK
RG13/255/84 Pg37
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan thats looks a good match thank you
:)
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so in 1891 George says p.o.b as Haggerston
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haggerston
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George Culmer was sentenced to 12 years penal service so in theory in 1901 should still be in nick!
however i cant find him there and have found this Georeg instead.
RG13; 4344; 38; 21 Nether Hallam
transcribed as
George Calmer 32 commerical clerk b. London
Ada Calmer 27 wife b. sheffield yorks
George Marsh 54 father in law widowed cellar man in ... ... b. Bolsover Derbyshire
now i'm not jumping to any conclusions that this is 'our' George but int eh court papers Alfred Richard Jones assessor to Royal Insurance Company mentions this in his evidence in court
' I questioned him as to the cause of the fire—he said he supposed it must have been through the lamp exploding—I wanted to know how it was that he did. not ascertain it earlier—he said he was sitting in the bedroom with Ids wife, reading, and he did not know anything about it until his landlady informed him that the place was on fire'
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ooooohhhhh brilliant
found them in 1881
on the LDS site
Alfred CULLMER Head M 46 b. Dover, Leather Goods Maker
Ellen CULLMER Wife M 36 b. Lambeth, Surrey, England
George CULLMER Son 15 b. Stepney, Leather Goods Maker
Frederick CULLMER Son 14 b. Stepney, Doctors Errand Boy
Source Information:
14 Wyatt Rd London, Middlesex, England
RG11 0256 / 38 70
no Ellen junior though
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You're doing well Toni........keep this up and you'll have solved it all yourself........ ;D ;D
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i'm on a roll!
Deaths Sep 1888
Cullmer Alfred 53 Shoreditch 1c 51
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Woooooo Hoooooo ;D ;D
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1871......RG10 / 500 / 28 / 6
Alfred Cullmer, head,age 36, b Devon
Ellen wife, age 24, b Surrey
George son, age 5, b Middlesex
Frederick son, age 4, b Middlesex
Address....Sclater Street, Bethnal Green
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Brilliant ... but still no Ellen junior :-\AND Ellen senior age is somewhat out to that of Ellen Wheeler mother in law to Warren Ingram therefore mother of his wife Ellen Cul(l)mer
70 1891
36 1881
24 1871
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Bit of a stretch there Toni......aging 34 years in 10......!!!
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Hmm wonder if Ellen Wheeler could be grandmother in law ie Ellen Colmer's mother? Maybe Ellen junior was born before marriage and brought up by her grandma?
Jan ;)
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Thomas JOhnson (member of slavage corps)says inthe court papers 'Mrs. Wheeler and her daughter, Mrs. Ingram, came to the house—on the Sunday, two or three days after, I saw the prisoner, I believe he came home to dinner—I was there, and Mrs. Wheeler and Mrs. Ingram were occupying the place, they had prepared dinner for his coming home' the prisoner in this case is Warren Ingram
Walter Dinney Police Inspector says '. That address is correct—the prisoner is an omnibus driver, in the employment of the London Road-Car Company—I know he comes off duty late at night, I believe about midnight; I do not know his hours—I should think it was too late for him to live at a place like Walthamstow—the result of my inquiries is that he had been living with his wife—I found this letter on him, addressed to Mrs. E. Ingram, District Post Office, Essex Road, London, England—it professes to have been posted in Melbourne—he said, "I got it from my wife," she has warrants out against her for being concerned in several of these fires; Mrs. Wheeler, her mother, was convicted a few days ago.'
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that thought had occurred to me Jan thats why i just re checked the papers (above
just one note Frederick is the yougner brother of George it does not say he is the younger brother to Ellen also therefore Ellen could be born after Fred and George although she seemed to have a starring role in these fires along with George and Fred had only recently began to take part in them before being caught.
Ellen and Warren marry in 1890 so i would assume that she be at least 18 or 16 with permission of her mother - is that correct?
anyhow 1890 - 18 = 1872
Frederick Whitehead says in evidence
'when I reached Richmond Gardens George and his brother were in front of me; on seeing me they went ahead—after the fire we went to a public-house, and the prisoner said he was afraid it would be rather an awkward affair; that his brother Fred was quite new to the business, and he thought perhaps some query might arise—after that I went home'
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do you think she could have exaggarated her age in order to receive a lighter sentence ?
again from court papers - Ellen Wheelers case
GUILTY.—Recommended to mercy by the JURY on account of her age. — Five Years' Penal Servitude.
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If Ellen was brought up by her grandmother she may be referred to as her daughter - my g grandmother was, causing me much confusion ::) :D
Jan ;)
I would think it quite likely she would say she was younger than she was but if Ellen really was her mother and really was 70 it would be difficult to say she was too young! Sorry I got confused you were talking about Ellen senior :-[ :)
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was Alfred Cullmer born Devon or Dover ?
1881 Dover
1871 Devon
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do you think she could have exaggarated her age in order to receive a lighter sentence ?
again from court papers - Ellen Wheelers case
GUILTY.—Recommended to mercy by the JURY on account of her age. — Five Years' Penal Servitude.
But would she look 34 years older??
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Toni You are looking at Alfred born c1835?
( There is one born c 1860)
1841 he is in Limehouse with parents and siblings, not born in Middlesex.
St Anne Limehouse
HO107/701/11 p 14.
(BTW Wheelers again ;D ;D)
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Toni You are looking at Alfred born c1835?
( There is one born c 1860)
1841 he is in Limehouse with parents and siblings, not born in Middlesex.
St Anne Liomehouse
HO107/701/ 6 11 p 14.
(BTW Wheelers again ;D ;D)
Do you mean 1840??
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good point and throughout the court papers she is reffered to as 'old'
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re Alfred Cullmer
1841 census all NBIC
Limehouse Middlesex
Edward Cullmer 25 carpenter
Anne 35
Mary 12
George 9
Susan 8
Alfred 6
HO107 701; 6; 11; 14
Q4 1857 possible marriage 1b 766 St Luke Middlesex
Alfred Cullmer
Mary Hale
William McGee
Elizabeth Ann Pitman
Criminal Registers
1861 10th JUne
Alfred Cullmer
Middlesex, England Imprisonment 6 (months or years? ) and hard labour
abduction of his ........
1871 as before
Q3 1880 Shoreditch 1c 340
possible marriage to Eleanor Sampson
(also on page Frederick William Dickinson Ann Elizabeth Masters ) have picked Eleanor as possible because of her name NOT because i have tried to find the other coupleon the census
1881 as before
1888 died
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added
snap ;D
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Toni You are looking at Alfred born c1835?
( There is one born c 1860)
1841 he is in Limehouse with parents and siblings, not born in Middlesex.
St Anne Limehouse
HO107/701/6/ 11 p 14.
(BTW Wheelers again ;D ;D)
Do you mean 1840??
Tephra there des appear to be 2, the younger one married to Eleanor, the older one Ellen.
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England & Wales, Criminal Registers, 1791-1892
1861 10th JUne
Name: Alfred Cullmer
Location of Trial: Middlesex, England
Sentence: Imprisonment
6 (months or years? ) and hard labour
abduction of his ........
(image can be viewed on Ancestry)
brilliant found his papers online at the old bailey site too :)
460. ALFRED CULMER (25) , Unlawfully taking away one Emily Blackshaw, aged 15, out of the possession of her father, and against his will.
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Sorry Jaywit.......misread it....... :-\ :-\
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perhaps there are not 2 Alfreds but 2 marriages
i am getting quite excited and carried away now
now in the court papers of Alfred Cullmer, Ellen Wilkins gave evidence for the defence her address was 14 Whitmore Rd ,Hoxton
now in the court papers fo George Culmer, he took the property of 13 Whitmore Rd Hoxton alogn with Fred Whitehead asn used it to store their salavaged goods from the fires
coincidence ?
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perhaps there are not 2 Alfreds but 2 marriages
i am getting quite excited and carried away now
now in the court papers of Alfred Cullmer, Ellen Wilkins gave evidence for the defence her address was 14 Whitmore Rd ,Hoxton
now in the court papers fo George Culmer, he took the property of 13 Whitmore Rd Hoxton alogn with Fred Whitehead asn used it to store their salavaged goods from the fires
coincidence ?
Toni they are both on 1881, young Alfred and Eleanor are in Shoreditch.
RG11/394/86 p 1
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ok Jaywit i didnt spot that :)
So the Alfred Cullmer marriage in 1857 is that mine ?
and young Alfred doe she belong to me too?
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Toni Probably, but it's just finding them on earlier census returns.
I see on that 1861 case Alfred was said to be married with 2 children, so wife should be around in 1861 with possibly Alfred jnr and 1 other child.
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My guess is that this is young Alfred's birth, another spelling and we don't know if he is connected at the moment.
Alfred Cullner birth registered Mar qtr 1860 Shoreditch 1c 203
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presumably Alfred senior would be in custody for the 1861 census
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Possibly Toni.
This is after the 1861 census.
George Cullmor Mar qtr 1862 Shoreditch 1c __5
Need to find the other one born earlier.
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i found this entry in 1861 - confusing me further
RG9; 244; 69; 39
James Cuyner 27
Maryan Cuyner 24
Alfred Cuyner 4 Mo b. Shoreditch
Haggerston (this is where George Culmer gives his p.o.b in 1891)
Do we know Ellen seniors real age?
70 1891
36 1881
24 1871
therefore would she be 14 in 1861
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Q4 1857 possible marriage 1b 766 St Luke Middlesex
Alfred Cullmer
Mary Hale
William McGee
Elizabeth Ann Pitman
Toni Trying to sort out who Afred married, the only William McGee I can see in London in1861 is married to an Eliza, but if we can pair William and Elizabeth off it would be a second marriage and would need further work.
If it is correct Alfred married Mary
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i cant see an Alfred and Ellen marriage maybe they weren't married thus she was known as Ellen Wheeler
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Possibly Toni.
This is after the 1861 census.
George Cullmor Mar qtr 1862 Shoreditch 1c __5
Need to find the other one born earlier.
later - George was born 1866ish
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i need to shoot off for now
i shall leave it in your capable hands :)
many thanks :)
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Toni I have got to break off for a while.
Looking for an Ellen Wheeler in Middlesex This one comes up in 1861.
RG9/247/137 p 10
Born Limehouse, living Haggeston, born around 1822.
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Same Ellen in 1871, living Shoreditch now.
RG10/439/ 34 p 22.
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Well well well.
1881 Ellen Francklin, it's her I'm sure, still has son Harry with her and Sydney Cullmer age 10 months grandson with her.
RG11/256/19 p 32;
Wonder who his parents were?
Sydney Charles Cullmer Jun qtr 1880 Islington 1b 452
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Thought is was Ingram :P
http://vcp.e2bn.org/prisoners/12414-1-alfred-ingray.html
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Yes!!!!!!
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def1-223-18910209&div=t18910209-223#highlight
To quote 'She gave her name as Franklin'
;D ;D ;D ;D
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;D ;D Well done, Jaywit..
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Ellen in 1851 with her husband and children, they had a servant then ;D
HO107/1582/ p 4
So I think we can tie up Ellen Wheeler who was involved in the 1891 court cases.
So not married to Alfred at all.
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This I think is the birth of Ellen Wheeler's daughter Ellen.
On 1851 she is age 4 born Poplar.
Ellen Elizabeth Wheeler Sept qtr 1846 Poplar 2 349
So we need to trace her after 1851
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Could this be a marriage for her?
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It's June qtr 1c 722
I know Wheelers aren't easy without all these name changes.
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Brilliant ... but still no Ellen junior :-\AND Ellen senior age is somewhat out to that of Ellen Wheeler mother in law to Warren Ingram therefore mother of his wife Ellen Cul(l)mer
70 1891
36 1881
24 1871
Right 1891 we know is Ellen Wheeler snr.
So it was Ellen jnr in 1871 and 1881.
|Although she was born in Poplar she was living south of the river by 1851, and it appears that she moved around a lot with her mother so she could easily say, Surrey etc. as her place of birth.
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I think this could be Ellen snr's husband's death and I guess after that things went downhill.
Samuel Wheeler Sep qtr 1858 Newington 1d 184
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Toni have you seen Warren Ingram's marriage certificate to Ellen whatever she wanted to call herself?
That should give her father ;D ;D and age.
If you haven't can anyone find the marriage on Ancestry?
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Toni have you seen Warren Ingram's marriage certificate to Ellen whatever she wanted to call herself?
That should give her father ;D ;D and age.
If you haven't can anyone find the marriage on Ancestry?
Now that was the question I was going to ask when my internet connection went pear-shaped and I had to go!
I'm sure I'd also found an Ellen Wilkins in prison when I was looking for Ellen 'wife' of Alfred Culmer - will go and look.
Jan ;)
Found her but she was born c1869 so unconnected
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This looks like it could be Sidney in 1891 -
Terrible writing
29 ?Leaney St Battersea
Sydney Ingram Nephew 11 Scholar London in household of
Henry Wheeler Head M Bag Maker London and family
RG12/424/113 Pg49
So looks like he was Ellen junior's child
Jan ;)
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http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def2-224-18910209&div=t18910209-224&terms=Warren#highlight
Probably to late with this. :-[
At top of page gives 70yrs for Ellen.
;) Les
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I can see the Warren/Ellen marriage is on London marriages on Ancestry, but I can't access it, can anyone?
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Ellen Cullmer says she is a widow age 36 father Samuel Wheeler a Gentleman
so confirms what has been found :D
Jan ;)
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Widow ;D ;D ;D ;D
Samuel a gentleman ;D ;D ;D
He was a collector for the gas company in 1851
Looks like Warren stayed around Islington, he died there.
Warren Ingram 1934 age 76 Islington 1b 239
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Well widow in a sense - Alfred did die and as for Gentleman poetic licence they had a servant ;D
Jan ;)
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Well widow in a sense - Alfred did die and as for Gentleman poetic licence they had a servant ;D
Jan ;)
And (I presume) he was male ergo he was a gentleman (of sorts :P) ;D
What can I do to help, cos it looks like you've cracked it all ::)
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I wonder why Warren married Ellen?
She was 12 years older than him, he appears to be honest and above board until he tangles with the Wheelers.
You never know.
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Warren Ingram 33 father John Ingram Lic Vic.
Ellen Cullmer 36 father Samuel Wheeler Gentleman.
25 May 1890 St Peter Hackney
22, Church Road
He. bach Confectioner
She. Widow.
Wits. Thomas (G looks like) Trew
and Sarah Trew
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Well she knocked 10 years off her age on the marriage. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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SpiderMonkey we still haven't worked out who Alfred married in 1857.
In the 1861 court case he was said to be married with 2 children, and I don't think we have found Ellen in 1861 either.
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Alfred Cullmer married Mary Hale in 1857 , his son Alfred junior married Eleanor Sampson in 1880 one of the witnesses is Mary Cullmer. I'm a wee bit confused do we have Alfred and Mary together in 61? Do we have a death for her?
Jan ;)
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I believe that even around the turn of the 19th/20th centuries there was remission of sentences for good conduct, so perhaps he got out before the 1901 census as a result of that.
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Alfred Cullmer married Mary Hale in 1857 , his son Alfred junior married Eleanor Sampson in 1880 one of the witnesses is Mary Cullmer. I'm a wee bit confused do we have Alfred and Mary together in 61? Do we have a death for her?
Jan ;)
We think Alfred was possibly on remand in 1861 and not recorded.
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Jan - I have a suspician Mary didn't die, which is why Alfred and Ellen Elizabeth didn't marry. She may well be under another name though
:)
DebbieG
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I'm confused but posting anyway... :D
6th Sept 1880 St Leonard Hackney
Alfred Cullmer 20 Bach father Alfred Cullmer Portcushtion ?? Maker
Eleanor Sampson 17 Spin father John Sampson Mariner
both at 53 Herbert Street
Wits. Isaac William Ostern? and Mary Cullmer.
Can't see a Samuel Wheeler for a father.... yet !!
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Jan - I have a suspician Mary didn't die, which is why Alfred and Ellen Elizabeth didn't marry. She may well be under another name though
:)
DebbieG
I think Mary could be on a couple of census returns as Culmer, 1881 and 1891.
She was born Brighton c 1836
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Jan - I have a suspician Mary didn't die, which is why Alfred and Ellen Elizabeth didn't marry. She may well be under another name though
:)
DebbieG
I think Mary could be on a couple of census returns as Culmer, 1881 and 1891.
She was born Brighton c 1836
I was wondering if she was still alive seeing a Mary Cullmer as witness to Alfred junior's marriage. I can't find her and little Alfred (+ mystery other child) in 1861
Jan ;)
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Lesanne
I think Alfred senior is a Portmanteau Maker at his son's marriage
Jan ;)
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;D ah... that could very well be it Jan... haha (added...for both father and son.)
BTW did I see a ref ........ she's Ide's wife........ ???
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:P I'll post this anyway...
15th August 1846. Hackney St John Bapt Hoxton. By Lic:
David George Edis- of age - bach- Gentleman- St John Hoxton- David Edis - Gentleman.
Ellen Wheeler- minor- spin- St Matthew Bethnal Green- Thomas Wheeler (dec-Publican
There are 4 witnesses and I'll need my other puta to read them.... ::)
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Yes Lesanne you did see a ref to an Ids - way back pertaining to George Cullmer thought to be brother to Ellen junior - not sure who he is now we have Ellen junior's maiden name as Wheeler ??? Her son? I'm losing the plot ;D
Jan ;)
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oooo better get me specs and old puta fired up then.... :o
Added... Wits
(PJR)or I.H. Hookham
David Davis
M. Staples
James Staples (Staply)
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Alfred Cullmer married Mary Hale in 1857 , his son Alfred junior married Eleanor Sampson in 1880 one of the witnesses is Mary Cullmer. I'm a wee bit confused do we have Alfred and Mary together in 61? Do we have a death for her?
Jan ;)
Have you seen the full details of the Alfred/Mary marriage on Ancestry?
We know nothing about Alfred or Mary's parentage etc, so details might help pin them down for certain.
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:D Here's that one Jaywit
23 12 1857 (q 1858) Islington St Paul Bunhill
Alfred Cullmer-full-bach- (a lab?)-Edward Cullmer-Carpenter
Mary Hale-B L M spinster-John Hale (Hall) Shoemaker
both of Banna/er Street
Wits. Joseph Corbett and (Enn Imber x her mark
~~~~~
Same place 14 9 1859
Annie Susan Cullmer + Alfred Urwin.
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Thanks Lesanne.
So the Alfred in Limehouse is the correct one.
1841 census all NBIC
Limehouse Middlesex
Edward Cullmer 25 carpenter
Anne 35
Mary 12
George 9
Susan 8
Alfred 6
HO107 701; 6; 11; 14
All of those said not born in county, so I'll see where any of the others apart from Alfred were born.
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i'm on a roll!
Deaths Sep 1888
Cullmer Alfred 53 Shoreditch 1c 51
Now this is submitted on IGI and we know Alfred said he was born in Dover on the 1881 census, so thats probably where they got his place of birth from, but they have a different date of death.
Alfred Edwin Culmer
b 1834 Dover, Kent, England
d 23 JUL 1882
Parents Edward Culmer & Annie Coles
Edit I think they have got the wrong death, this is the one they must have but age is way out.
Alfred Culmer Sept qtr 1881 age 69 Eastry Kent 2a 469
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George Culmer was sentenced to 12 years penal service so in theory in 1901 should still be in nick!
however i cant find him there and have found this Georeg instead.
RG13; 4344; 38; 21 Nether Hallam
transcribed as
George Calmer 32 commerical clerk b. London
Ada Calmer 27 wife b. sheffield yorks
George Marsh 54 father in law widowed cellar man in ... ... b. Bolsover Derbyshire
now i'm not jumping to any conclusions that this is 'our' George but int eh court papers Alfred Richard Jones assessor to Royal Insurance Company mentions this in his evidence in court
' I questioned him as to the cause of the fire—he said he supposed it must have been through the lamp exploding—I wanted to know how it was that he did. not ascertain it earlier—he said he was sitting in the bedroom with Ids wife, reading, and he did not know anything about it until his landlady informed him that the place was on fire'
What a coincidence... that looks more like it should read his .... lol
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This is extracted on IGI, they are submissions with different church etc, and Edward is shown as being born 1811 in London on the submissions.
EDWARD CULLMER m Annie Gardner Cole 19 Apr 1830 All Souls St Marylebone
Ties in with eldest child George being born 1831.
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:P I'll post this anyway...
15th August 1846. Hackney St John Bapt Hoxton. By Lic:
David George Edis- of age - bach- Gentleman- St John Hoxton- David Edis - Gentleman.
Ellen Wheeler- minor- spin- St Matthew Bethnal Green- Thomas Wheeler (dec-Publican
There are 4 witnesses and I'll need my other puta to read them.... ::)
Does this help..... 1851 HO107 / 1502 / 101 / 53
David G Edis, head, age 29, b Middlesex, occ Wine merchant
Ellen wife, age 25, b Middlesex
George, son, age 3 , b Middlesex
Ellen, dau age 2, b Islington, Middlesex
Mary A Dyer, servant, unmarried, age 23, b Cirencester, Gloucs
Address.....8, Coleman Street, Islington
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:D Could be this researcher follows thread and gets in touch.
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"Ids" his wife? Though I can't find any reference in the postings I took this to mean Ada, On the face of things this does seem more than coincidence specially if references were followed up as well 100 years ago as they are today!However I think we should remember that Ida and Ada are two separate Christian names, so it may just be coincidental. Anyway Toni your Scavenger hunt has surpassed mine three times already, good luck!!
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George Culmer was sentenced to 12 years penal service so in theory in 1901 should still be in nick!
however i cant find him there and have found this Georeg instead.
RG13; 4344; 38; 21 Nether Hallam
transcribed as
George Calmer 32 commerical clerk b. London
Ada Calmer 27 wife b. sheffield yorks
George Marsh 54 father in law widowed cellar man in ... ... b. Bolsover Derbyshire
now i'm not jumping to any conclusions that this is 'our' George but int eh court papers Alfred Richard Jones assessor to Royal Insurance Company mentions this in his evidence in court
' I questioned him as to the cause of the fire—he said he supposed it must have been through the lamp exploding—I wanted to know how it was that he did. not ascertain it earlier—he said he was sitting in the bedroom with Ids wife, reading, and he did not know anything about it until his landlady informed him that the place was on fire'
What a coincidence... that looks more like it should read his .... lol
The marriage between George and Ada.
Information removed due to copyright violation. See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php for more details
RootsChat must deal with any breach of copyright by its members.
For some time the team of Copyright Editors has been removing breaches of copyright and sending detailed personal messages to the member that had posted the information. Due to the volume of posts and members this is now impractical. Messages in breach will simply be deleted and this notice posted. We apologise for any inconvenience caused but are sure you will appreciate the importance of this issue.
Sept qtr ref 9c 810.
Could he get out of jail early for good behaviour back then?
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Yes Lesanne you did see a ref to an Ids - way back pertaining to George Cullmer thought to be brother to Ellen junior - not sure who he is now we have Ellen junior's maiden name as Wheeler ??? Her son? I'm losing the plot ;D
Jan ;)
I am losing the plot too ;D
thank you for all your help
am i reading this right
Ellen Wheeler aged 70 is the mother of Ellen Wheeler who married Warren Ingram but Ellen junior was 12 years her senior
Ellen Wheeler senior was actually Ellen Franklin
When Ellen jnr married Warren her name is given as Culmer (but she is a widow)
Ellen had a son Sydney Culmer - is this the boy / child reffered to in the court papers ?
so who was Ellens first husband?
would they be brother to George & Frederick
Lesanne the 1901 'up north' i dont think is the right George, there are a couple born 1869/70 in Shoreditch which could be easily them.
Redroger i thought IDs could have been a misprint for his but this is the only ref, to a name we have
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Ellen snr is the mother of Ellen who married Warren YES
Ellen jnr was a widow NO
she was living with Alfred Cullmer but never married him as he was married to Mary Hale. ( and Alfred had died)
Ellen jnr was 12 years older than Warren but she knocked 10 years off her age on her marriage cert.
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George Cullmer + Jenney Onken 2/6/1887 St John Bapt Hoxton.
Same place as Edis/Wheeler '46
:-[ I'm afraid I lost it ages ago. Toni, just keep posting your needs plz.... :P :P ;D
BTW where/who was that letter from.... ???
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from my old notes (some of this may have now been proven not to be true!) details taken from court papers
Ellen Wheeler aged 70
mother of Ellen Ingram nee Culmer (now proven to be Nee Wheeler and living wiht Alfred Culmer before his death)
assumed to be the mother of George & Frederick Culmer also because of Ellens surname at marriage - now wonder if George and Frederick were actaully brother in law to Ellen junior.
anyway back to Ellen Wheeler
aliases
Louisa Corrie
Elizabeth Thornton
Elizabeth Franklin
Kate Cranley
Mrs Hitchin
addresses
1886 11 Gerand St Bow
Jan 1887 46 Winchester St Kings Cross
1889 6 Hazelwood Rd Walthamstow
1889 156 St Georges Rd Peckham
1890 66 Longhedge Rd Battersea
May 1890 89 Great Dover Street Borough
Sept 1890 29 Stanley St Battersea
Oct 1890 2 Portland Rd Seven Sisters Rd
Nov 1890 20 Gerand St BOw
13 Whitmore Rd Hoxton
endof notes re Ellen Wheeler
2 replies
Jaywit thank you for clearing that up.
Lesanne letter to Ellen Ingram from Melbourne
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So far I have deduced :
Warren Ingram
An omnibus driver, in the employment of the London Road-Car Company—he comes off duty late at night, I believe about midnight; I do not know his hours
He came home as a rule about twelve or a little later, and left at a few minutes to eight in the morning
Warren Ingram received a good character from an inspector of the Road-Car Company
Was found guilty of feloniously setting fire to a dwelling-house, with intent to injure and defraud. Third Count, for setting fire to goods in the dwelling-house and sentenced to 12 months hard labour – was at Wandsworth Prison in 1891 census (5th April 1891)
12 Albert Hill Stanford transferred from here to 18 Charles St Tottenham
Feb 1886 18 Charles Street Tottenham, (fire occurred there 4th April 1886)
9th October 1886 138 Caledonian Road
October 1887 (insurance) policy transferred to 8 Chesham Road, Fulham and from there to Arkley Road
9th April 1889- July 1889 resided 34 Arkley Road Walthamstow (fire occurred there on 14th June 1889) (resided with Mrs. Wheeler- mother in law, and Mrs. Ingram - wife)
Aug 1890 - 21st November 1890 residing at 31 St James Road, Barnsbury (21st Nov was when he was arrested in Caledonian Rd) (Ellen took the room for him [Warren] but he lived there, Ellen was there a handful of times)
5th April 1891, 1891 census HMP Wandsworth
it seems that Warren was involved with the fires pre Alfred Culmers death maybe this is why he hooked up with her / Ellen
I wonder why Warren married Ellen?
She was 12 years older than him, he appears to be honest and above board until he tangles with the Wheelers.
You never know.
honest and above board until he got involved with the Culmers my thoughts exactly but he obviously got involved with them betwixt 1881 & 1886
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Ellen snr is Franklin ( Francklin) on the 1881 census.
BTW Ellen jnr was calling herself Mrs Ingram in 1889 according to the trial.
'8th July, 1889, the prisoner Wheeler and Mrs. Ingram, her daughter, called on me about the house—the prisoner described Mrs. Ingram as her daughter'
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Toni maybe, did you notice he described himself as a confectioner on his marriage, missed the bus?
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::) What's wrong with Eleanor Sampson ?? Sorry guys.. :-[
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2 June 1887 . Banns
St John Bapt Hoxton
George Cullmer 21 Bach- Bag Handle maker- 101 Brittainia Str-Alfred Cullmer-BHM
Jenney Onken 23 Spin-17 Gt Chart Str- Henry Onken - Publican
Wits:- Alfred Cullmer and Ellen Cullmer
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further notes re Warren Ingram
29 April 1889 – July 1889 34 Arkley Rd Walthamstow
12 Albert Rd Stamford Hill
Feb 1886 18 Charles St Tottenham
July 1886 4 Nassau Rd Stamford Hill
9th Oct 1886 138 Caledonian Rd
Oct 1887 8 Chesham Rd Fulham
July 1890 38 Ringcroft St Holloway *
Aug 1890 31 St James Rd
*Warren Ingram held the leasehold here although George Culmer lived here also
Frequent visitors - Frederick Whitehead, Mr & Mrs Richard Capsey Mrs Wheeler George Loveday
Jaywit
i hadnt seent he actual marriage details confectioner is interesting choice to bus driver!
Ellen & Warren married in 1890
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2 June 1887 . Banns
St John Bapt Hoxton
George Cullmer 21 Bach- Bag Handle maker- 101 Brittainia Str-Alfred Cullmer-BHM
Jenney Onken 23 Spin-17 Gt Chart Str- Henry Onken - Publican
Wits:- Alfred Cullmer and Ellen Cullmer
brilliant
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George in Wormwood Scrubs in 1891 is a bag maker, married, anyone see Jenny?
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;D It's above you... ;D
Toni just txt me ... Keeps getting timed out on here...... ???
Will try & get back otherwise the morning.
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2 June 1887 . Banns
St John Bapt Hoxton
George Cullmer 21 Bach- Bag Handle maker- 101 Brittainia Str-Alfred Cullmer-BHM
Jenney Onken 23 Spin-17 Gt Chart Str- Henry Onken - Publican
Wits:- Alfred Cullmer and Ellen Cullmer
So 1887 Alfred still alive, Ellen calling herself Cullmer.
1888 Alfred dies.
1889 Ellen calling herself Mrs Ingram.
1890 Marries Warren Ingram.
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Toni You mention at the beginning that there was a possible child of either Warren/Ellen or George/X
Now if Ellen was born in 1846 then by 1890 she would be past child bearing age, so the child is possibly from George/Jenny ( who I think was actually Jane).
Problem is I can't see Jenny/Jane after her marriage to George and there are some Cullmer births in London between 1887 and whenever George was arrested, but where was Jenny?
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Warren Ingram 33 father John Ingram Lic Vic.
Ellen Cullmer 36 father Samuel Wheeler Gentleman.
25 May 1890 St Peter Hackney
22, Church Road
He. bach Confectioner
She. Widow.
Wits. Thomas (G looks like) Trew
and Sarah Trew
Ellen says 36 at time of marriage May 1890
Ellen Edis (nee Wheeler) aged 64 Wid in 1891.
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Wow Toni,
So complicated and again nothing I can add from HOT HOT HOT Australia.
Over 40 degrees celcius for 5 dyas in a row 8)
Will follow with interest.
Robyn
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I'm completely confuddled, but as I've got a snow day, I thought I would leap in!
I don't think you have this info, but apologies if you do already.
In 1911, there is a Colmer household at 49 Gibbon Road, Peckham.
Household consists of 3 siblings - the head is Thomas Christopher Colmer (aged 42, single), and George Colmer (aged 41, single) and Eleanor Colmer (aged 40, single). Thomas is a licensed victualler, whilst the other two are assisting in the business. All born in London Haymarket.
ALso in household is a Christopher WHITEHEAD aged 22, a servant assisting in the business, born in Clapham.
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Warren Ingram 33 father John Ingram Lic Vic.
Ellen Cullmer 36 father Samuel Wheeler Gentleman.
25 May 1890 St Peter Hackney
22, Church Road
He. bach Confectioner
She. Widow.
Wits. Thomas (G looks like) Trew
and Sarah Trew
A certain Thomas Geo Trew was sentenced to 5 years penal servitude for attempted arson at the same time as Ellen Wheeler, George Colmer et al. (9th Feb 1891, Old Bailey)
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Toni You mention at the beginning that there was a possible child of either Warren/Ellen or George/X
Now if Ellen was born in 1846 then by 1890 she would be past child bearing age, so the child is possibly from George/Jenny ( who I think was actually Jane).
Problem is I can't see Jenny/Jane after her marriage to George and there are some Cullmer births in London between 1887 and whenever George was arrested, but where was Jenny?
There is a death for Jane Cullmer in Watford in 1936. Age at death is given as 72, which would fit for a birth in 1864 (as per marriage cert).
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ok i now have a better understandingof this family
thank you for all your help & input so far you've been brilliant :
Elizabeth nee Franklin married Samuel Wheeler
They had a child Ellen 1846
Edward & Annie Cullmer had a child Alfred 1835
Alfred m. Mary and had 2 known children
George 1866 & Frederick 1867
Although there were probably more (2 before 1861)
Mary left Alfred or vice versa
Alfred set up home with young Ellen Wheeler
Although they never married Ellen called herself Culmer
Alfred died 1888
Young Ellen actually married Warren Ingram in 1890 using the name of Culmer
(she was 12 years older than him)
George Cullmer married Jenny Onken
i will now go and read replies from last night
:)
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Toni You mention at the beginning that there was a possible child of either Warren/Ellen or George/X
Now if Ellen was born in 1846 then by 1890 she would be past child bearing age, so the child is possibly from George/Jenny ( who I think was actually Jane).
Problem is I can't see Jenny/Jane after her marriage to George and there are some Cullmer births in London between 1887 and whenever George was arrested, but where was Jenny?
Ellen junior looks to have had a child Sydney Cullmer who was on the 1881 census aged 10 months with Ellen senior and Harry WheelerFranklin (presumably son of Ellen senior and Ellen jnr brother)
then in 1891 young Sydney is with Harry aged 10 as nephew
and Jenny is mentioned several times in the court papers as Georges wife never actually by the name of Jenny
added
Sydney was registered as Cullmer but on census with uncle Harry he is using the name of Ingram
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Jan - I have a suspician Mary didn't die, which is why Alfred and Ellen Elizabeth didn't marry. She may well be under another name though
:)
DebbieG
I think Mary could be on a couple of census returns as Culmer, 1881 and 1891.
She was born Brighton c 1836
Alfred & Mary according to the 1861 court papers had 2 children by that time
George & Frederick were born 1866 & 1867
Mary is by herself in 81 & 91
so who were the earlier children and where were they
added
we think one is young Alfred who married Eleanor Sampson
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Sidney in 1901 ???
12 Pelham Row Wood Green
Boarder with the Snells
transcribed as Cummin looks more like Cummor
aged 21 Baker b. Islington
RG13; 1257; 120; 27.
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i'm still trying to put these addresses in some sort of order too - this is the hardest part ::)
Morning everyone :)
These details I took from the court papers (Feb 1891) when I first looked at them – so a while back –
Richard Capsey aged 30 married
July 1886 4 Nassau Road Stamford Hill – leaseholder but Mr. & Mrs. Ingram & Mrs. Wheeler lived with him here)
(Here for 1 year after fire which occurred September)
7 Blenheim Cottages Church Crescent Hackney 19 Aug – 13 Oct 1889
Plevna Road – no date
April 1889 6 Hazelwood Rd Blackhorse Lane
14 Oct 1889 Hazelwood Rd
Well Street
25 Westerfield Street Tottenham
George Culmer
Aliases :
George Franklin
Herbert Brown
George James
Addresses :
March 1890 36 Paignton Rd Stamford Hill
35 Overend Rd
April 1890 13 Madras Place Liverpool Rd Holloway
38 Ringcroft Rd Holloway (leased by Warren Ingram July / Aug 1890)
Clyde Rd Tottenham
Winshester Street Kings Cross
Bridge Rd Southwark
22 Church Road , Southgate Rd Islington (leased Easter to Christmas 1889 fire Sept that year)
97 Tredegar Rd Bow (moved here Oct 1889)
44 Richmond Gardens Hammersmith (moved here Nov 1889)
250 Tufnell Park Rd (Feb 1890)
5 Dalton Street Peckham (Leased April to June 1890)
61 Beresford Street, Walworth Rd (May 1890 Whitehead & Culmer)
13 Whitmore Rd Hoxteon (June 1890 leased for 6 months Whitehead & Culmer)
27 Woodstock Rd Shepherds Bush (Aug 1890)
5 Sept 1890 Culmer arrested Kingsland Rd
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And finally from my old notes
Frederick (William) Whitehead
Aka Fred English Fred Richards Fred Brown
Warehouseman for Perkins & Sons Bermondsey St for 11 years married and had 1 child
Oct 1889 106 Spa Rd Bermondsey
Nov 189 133 St Johns Rd Hoxton
May 1890 61 Beresford Street Walworth (with Geo. Culmer)
June 1890 13 Whitmore Rd Hoxton (leased for 6 months with Geo Culmer as a furniture shop and living rooms above – this is where they stored their gear)
Aug 1890 39 Thorolds Rd Fulham
Feb 1891 66 Ridley Rd Dalton
~~~~
George Loveday aged 44 married 8 children
Formerly a joiner but had inherited money
(in 1882 he was a green grocer)
53 Hoxton Rd Walthamstow – lived here for 2 years before the fire in Aug 1890 after the fire he moved to High Street Walthamstow
A telegram was sent betwixt George Loveday and Ellen Ingram which said start at 10
The prosecution said this was to start fire at 10 i.e. the house would be empty
But George Loveday said that this meant to meet Ellen Ingram and to go to Brighton at 10
~~
I thought the telegram was for a day trip maybe he was her fancy man however it now seems that Mary Culmer was from originally from Brighton so maybe there was a connection
Quotes from Court paper re telegram
Inspector Walter Dinney in reading eveidence when George Loveday was arrested
"Yes, I did send a telegram to Mrs. Ingram "—he hesitated, and said, "But that was about another matter, it was about going to Brighton the following morning"
Evidence from Frederick Whitehead when cross examined by Culmer
I never heard that the telegram meant an appointment to go to Brighton—Inever heard of it.
And then reexamined by the court
I cannot recollect any conversation about Mrs. Ingram and Loveday going to Brighton together.
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Warren Ingram 33 father John Ingram Lic Vic.
Ellen Cullmer 36 father Samuel Wheeler Gentleman.
25 May 1890 St Peter Hackney
22, Church Road
He. bach Confectioner
She. Widow.
Wits. Thomas (G looks like) Trew
and Sarah Trew
A certain Thomas Geo Trew was sentenced to 5 years penal servitude for attempted arson at the same time as Ellen Wheeler, George Colmer et al. (9th Feb 1891, Old Bailey)
i missed that Spider Monkey - good find
oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to decieve
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Ellen Franklin :)
Ellen Franklin
bp. 25 Jan 1822
Father's Michael Franklin cabinet maker
Mother's Ellen Franklin
St Leonard Shoreditch
Hackney
residence Long Alley
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Toni
This all seems to be coming together nicely (if confusingly) - is there anything/anyone else we need to look for?
Jan ;)
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Brilliant information coming in Toni.......... ;D
Well done everyone. :D :D
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just for info really
other children bp. to Michael & Ellen Franklin at Hackney Shoreditch ST Leonards
Henry Franklin 29 Dec 1817 Michael Carpenter abode Kings Head Co.....
Robert 7 Jan 1820 Micahel cabinet maker abode Christ Church Spitafields
William 18 AUg 1824
cabinet maker long alley
George 19 Dec 1826
cabinet maker wartables alley
Harriet 25 May 1829
St Lukes Middlesex Carpenter
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Hi Jan & Barbara :)
this is coming togetheer nicely i am beginning to understand the family
would like to try to find the children of Alfred & Mary and what happened to them
I see a death was found for Jane Cullmer (Jenny) but she is missing from the census too
a question now - were people held in custody recorded on census night ?
i would really like to put the addresses in some sort of order for each 'criminal'
i.e. where they lived and when the fires occurred
it would be interesting for me to plot these on a map (if i ever get five minutes ;D) and to colour code them
added:
the letter to Miss E Ingram from Melbourne Aus well that was where it profuses to be posted from - i wonder who that was from not the Ingrams must be one of her family / friends
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just bringing this forward
So far I have deduced :
Warren Ingram
An omnibus driver, in the employment of the London Road-Car Company—he comes off duty late at night, I believe about midnight; I do not know his hours
He came home as a rule about twelve or a little later, and left at a few minutes to eight in the morning
Warren Ingram received a good character from an inspector of the Road-Car Company
Was found guilty of feloniously setting fire to a dwelling-house, with intent to injure and defraud. Third Count, for setting fire to goods in the dwelling-house and sentenced to 12 months hard labour – was at Wandsworth Prison in 1891 census (5th April 1891)
12 Albert Hill Stanford transferred from here to 18 Charles St Tottenham
Feb 1886 18 Charles Street Tottenham, (fire occurred there 4th April 1886)
9th October 1886 138 Caledonian Road
October 1887 (insurance) policy transferred to 8 Chesham Road, Fulham and from there to Arkley Road
9th April 1889- July 1889 resided 34 Arkley Road Walthamstow (fire occurred there on 14th June 1889) (resided with Mrs. Wheeler- mother in law, and Mrs. Ingram - wife)
Aug 1890 - 21st November 1890 residing at 31 St James Road, Barnsbury (21st Nov was when he was arrested in Caledonian Rd) (Ellen took the room for him [Warren] but he lived there, Ellen was there a handful of times)
5th April 1891, 1891 census HMP Wandsworth
Ellen Ingram nee Culmer
Known as Lucy Ingram whilst living at 34 Arkley Road
Mrs. E. Ingram, District Post Office, Essex Road, London, England posted from Melbourne – from letter found on Warren Ingram on his arrest on 21st November 1890
12 Albert Hill Stamford transferred from here to 18 Charles Street Tottenham on 10th March 1886 – insurance claimed 6th April 1886 in the name of Ellen & William Ingram
George Culmer
Aged 25 on 9th Feb 1891
Charged with , Feloniously setting fire to a dwelling-house, with intent to injure and defraud. Third Count, for setting fire to the goods in the dwelling-house.
Was said to have a wife
Aliases:
George Franklin
George Wilson
Herbert Brown
(Easter 1889-Christmas 1889) 6th Sept 1889 – 22 Church Road, Southgate Road Islington (insurance policy transferred to 97 Tredegar Rd Bow on 31st Oct.1889)
policy in respect of furniture at 22, Church Road, Islington, dated 29th June, 1889, by Herbert Brown—on February 8th, 1890, that policy was transferred by endorsement to furniture at 250, Tufnell Park Road—on 12th February we received notice that a fire had taken place there,
Oct 1889 97, Tredegar Road, Bow – circa 3 weeks later there was a fire (10th November)
29th November 1889 insurance policy transferred to 44, Richmond Gardens, Hammersmith (in the name of F. Wilson)
Nov 1889 44 Richmond Gardens Hammersmith (fire there 18th Dec 1889)
April/ May - June 1890 5 Dalton Street Peckham (fire 1st June 1890)
5th June 1890 (mainly Frederick Whitehead) 61, Beresford Road, Walworth
23rd August 1890 using the name of (George) Franklin took 2 rooms from Mary Kinsol, at 27 Woodstock Rd Shepherds Bush. Fire occurred there on 3rd September at about 9.15 that evening. Remained there for 3 weeks after fire.
several fires that he had figured in, Clyde Road, Tottenham, Winchester Street, King's Cross, another, Southwark Bridge Road, and Tredegar Road, Bow
Frederick Culmer
Younger brother of George Culmer & Ellen Culmer also known as Frederick Wilson
Frederick Whitehead
Warehouseman by trade
Known George Culmer for 12 years also knows brother Frederick and other family members
Aka Frederick English
Feb 1891 – lives at 66 Ridley Road, Dalton
16th Dec 1889 44 Richmond Gardens , Shepherds Bush – fire here 18th Dec
Nov 1889 133 St Johns Road, Hoxton (fire Dec 1889)
Oct 1889 – 106 Spa Road, Bermondsey
thats as far as i have got.
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For the sake of completeness
1851
3 Green Dragon Court, St Giles Cripplegate
Sarah Hale Head W 36 Shoe closer N K
Mary Hale Dau 12 Brighton
William Hale Son 4 London
Thomas Hale Son 1m do
HO107/1525/165 Pg4
Jan ;)
I believe people in custody should have been recorded
- someone else might actually know!
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i have been looking also at London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 on Ancestry but i cant find the Culmer children on there (belonging to Alfred)
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I've just asked Gadget re the census and custody and she says 'Yes.....in the cells' ;)
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would that be their address then ?
i dont think i can do an address search on the 1861 or 1891 census (typical)
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I believe people in custody should have been recorded been recorded - someone else might actually know!
Toni What I think and it is only guesswork is this.
On later census returns in London you will see people held in the cells in Police Stations.
On all the census returns you will see people held in actual prisons, but earlier I wondered if
a) people were held in police stations and b) if so were they recorded?
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would that be their address then ?
i dont think i can do an address search on the 1861 or 1891 census (typical)
It would have to be their address as that was where they were officially 'residing' on the night.
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in the court papers it tells you where they were taken for questioning and then transferred will have a look, i must admit i have never seen anyone on the census in the cells (i have seen people in prison) but then i havent been looking ;)
~~~
i think i have put George CUlmers address details in order
George Culmer b. 1866 Haggerston son of Alfred Cullmer & Mary nee Hale
Aged 25 on 9th Feb 1891
Charged with , Feloniously setting fire to a dwelling-house, with intent to injure and defraud. Third Count, for setting fire to the goods in the dwelling-house.
Wife Jenny nee Onken
Aliases:
George Franklin
George Wilson
Herbert Brown
George James
Addresses :
22 Church Road , Southgate Rd Islington (leased Easter to Christmas 1889 fire Sept that year)
97 Tredegar Rd Bow (moved here Oct 1889 fire 10th Nov)
Nov 1889 44 Richmond Gardens Hammersmith (fire there 18th Dec 1889)
March 1890 36 Paignton Rd Stamford Hill
35 Overend Rd
April 1890 13 Madras Place Liverpool Rd Holloway
April / May – June 1890 5 Dalton Street EPckham (fire 1st June 1890)
5th June 1890 (mainly Frederick Whitehead) 61 Beresford Road, Walworth
38 Ringcroft Rd Holloway (leased by Warren Ingram July / Aug 1890)
Clyde Rd Tottenham
Winchester Street Kings Cross
Bridge Rd Southwark
250 Tufnell Park Rd (Feb 1890)
5 Dalton Street Peckham (Leased April to June 1890)
61 Beresford Street, Walworth Rd (May 1890 Whitehead & Culmer)
13 Whitmore Rd Hoxton (June 1890 leased for 6 months Whitehead & Culmer)
27 Woodstock Rd Shepherds Bush (23 Aug 1890 under the name of George Franklin, fire 3rd Sept 21:15 remained there 3 weeks after fire)
5 Sept 1890 Culmer arrested Kingsland Rd
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would that be their address then ?
i dont think i can do an address search on the 1861 or 1891 census (typical)
Can you do an address search on FindMyPast for some years?
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Toni I have seen people held in cells in a police station in 1901.
( I had a shock as a rellie is transcribed as a prisoner but when you look at the image he is a single man living in at the police station, but there are some men shown as prisoners on the image)
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i dont have a sub to FindMyPast but it hink its 1851 :)
Inspector Walter Dinney re Warren Ingram says:
'I arrested the prisoner on a warrant in the Caledonian Road—I read the warrant to him; it was for conspiracy and defrauding insurance companies—he said, "I know nothing about it"—I took him to Whitehall Place'
and regarding George Culmer he says :
'On 5th September, at 11.30 a.m., I was with Sergeant Williamson in Kingsland Road, and there saw the prisoner—I said to him, "We are police officers; what is your name?"—he said, "George Franklin"—I said, "I hold a warrant against you in the name of George Culmer"—he said, "Yes, I have gone in that name"—I took him to Hoxton Police-station close by, and read the warrant to him—he said nothing in answer to it; it was for conspiring with others to defraud several insurance companies—I took him to Southwark Police-station—the charge was entered there; he said nothing'
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Toni I have seen people held in cells in a police station in 1901.
( I had a shock as a rellie is transcribed as a prisoner but when you look at the image he is a single man living in at the police station, but there are some men shown as prisoners on the image)
so they should show under their name when searching
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Whitehall Place is I think the old Scotland Yard, just off Whitehall.
Edit Yes.
http://www.met.police.uk/history/definition.htm
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Just a thought:-
Aren't "Institution's " listed separately at the page description of enumerators area... ???
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Have you checked the Times online to see if there is anymore info given in the papers?
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Just a thought:-
Aren't "Institution's " listed separately at the page description of enumerators area... ???
Yes a prison should be listed seperatly, but I'm sure a police station would just be in the normal run.
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would that be their address then ?
i dont think i can do an address search on the 1861 or 1891 census (typical)
Toni.
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/CensusChooseSearchType.jsp
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Have we sorted out the problems with the age discrepancy between the Ellen Colmer on the 1881 census (aged 36) and 70 year old Ellen that is in court 10 years later?
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I have plotted the scenes of Georges crimes on a map
hopefully this will work
http://www.rootschat.com/links/07ue/
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Have we sorted out the problems with the age discrepancy between the Ellen Colmer on the 1881 census (aged 36) and 70 year old Ellen that is in court 10 years later?
SpiderMonkey yes it's 2 different people, mother and daughter.
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So the George and Frederick are not her brothers, but her sons? Am I being really dense here? ::)
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spidermonkey here you go :)
ok i now have a better understandingof this family
thank you for all your help & input so far you've been brilliant :
Elizabeth nee Franklin married Samuel Wheeler
They had a child Ellen 1846
Edward & Annie Cullmer had a child Alfred 1835
Alfred m. Mary and had 2 known children
George 1866 & Frederick 1867
Although there were probably more (2 before 1861)
Mary left Alfred or vice versa
Alfred set up home with young Ellen Wheeler
Although they never married Ellen called herself Culmer
Alfred died 1888
Young Ellen actually married Warren Ingram in 1890 using the name of Culmer
(she was 12 years older than him)
George Cullmer married Jenny Onken
i will now go and read replies from last night
:)
N.B Elizabeth Franklin b. 1822
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Re Mary Hale
she was born in Brighton and we have her on 1851 census
she married Alfred in Q4 1857
they had two children but in the court papers of 1861 they refer to the event happening in 1860 by this time Mary had left Alfred (he was living Hatfield Road)
we cant find her in 1861 or 71
she should be somewhere with the 2 children born pre April 1861
but have her in 81 & 91 under Cullmer
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I tried all ways yesterday to find Mary, she was very well hidden.
I would guess that she named first son after his father, I think I found a birth for him somewhere so if they were together it should be possible to find a Alfred mother's name Mary even if they were using another surname, and from that 1861 court case maybe we can work out where they should possibly be.
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I have had a good look around Sheffield records after 1900. They don't seem to have taken their bad habits north with them.
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Ellen WHeeler was widowed betwixt 1871 & 1881 - need to locate Samuels death - or have we done that already
re children of Alfred Cullmer & Mary Hale
we are thinking young Alfred may be one but we do not know for sure
FreeBMD have given these Culmers born 1857-1860
Births Jun 1857
Culmer Alice Islington 1b 270
Births Sep 1857
Culmer Emily St Geo East 1c 417
Births Dec 1857
Culmer James Robert Thanet 2a 627
Births Mar 1858
Culmer Harriet Blean 2a 546
Culmer Rosina St Luke 1b 579 this is where Alfred & Mary married)
Births Jun 1858
Culmer Alfred Dover 2a 637 (he appears to have died)
Births Dec 1858
Culmer Charles George Eastry 2a 619
Culmer Fanny Eastry 2a 620
Culmer Jane Dover 2a 647
Births Mar 1859
CULMER Eliza Thanet 2a 641
CULMER Eliza Thanet 2a 643
CULMER Susannah Prebble Eastry 2a 675
CULMER Susannah Pribble Eastry 2a 673 (she died)
Births Jun 1859
CULMER John Henry Bridge 2a 521
Births Sep 1859
CULMER Ellen Emily Pancras 1B 96
Births Dec 1859
CULMER Jane Ellen Islington 1b 239
CULMER Mary Ann Thanet 2a 643
Births Sep 1860
CULMER Alice Blean 2a 525
CULMER John Henry Eastry 2a 623
Births Dec 1860
CULMER Anne Mary Dover 2a 650
CULMER Emma Thanet 2a 594
i think we can rule out the Kent ones
and then there are some 'matching' deaths but ages weren't included then
Deaths Dec 1859
Culmer Alice Islington 1b 1_4
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There are 2x Edwards...
Alfred Cullmer + Mary Hale 1857 father Edward Cullmer
Alfred Cullmer + Eleanor Sampson 1880 father Alfred Cullmer
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Now, I know I saw a Rosina somewhere.........
You lot are getting me into bad ways - I'm supposed to be doing school work!
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I think some of the vital area is missing in 1861.
I am looking at those invoved in the court case.
Emily Blackshaw I can find.
RG9/ 245/150 p 33
With her parents, but I can't see the Downes family who Alfred and Emily were lodging with. It would explain why we can't find Mary plus children that year.
Toni I think the Alfred birth I found earlier was a different spelling of the surname, it's back somewhere on here.
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ok so Alfred was one child - yes i rememebr you found it now
and Alice b. 1857 she wasnt a child of Alfreds
her bp at Saint John The Evangelist, Upper Holloway Islington
reads
28 Jun 1857
Alice d/o William Culmer &Sarah Ann Culmer
abode - Blenheim Rd, occ. Brush Maker
leaves Rosina, Ellen Emily, Jane Ellen
added:
who were the parents of George & Fred if Mary had already left Alfred?
if they belonged to Ellen why did young Sydney not live with them
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Looks like a Rosina Cullmer married Isaac William Osborn. In 1881 they are living in Islington and Rosina has a sister with her - Georgette bn abt 1859 (helpfully, their POB is given as MIddlesex ::))
RG11 piece 254 folio 59 page 5
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i saw Georgette earlier :)
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Michael Job Franklin bachelor OTP maried Ellen Lander OTP 28.11.1815 St Matthews Bethnal Green
by Joshua King Rector
witnesses .... Ames
.... Palmer
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Have a look at this, surname is Urwin, father Alfred is a bag handle maker, sisters Rosina and Georgette.
RG10/397/58 p 55
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Oooooh, did we need Jane Collmer in 1891? Cos I have one visiting Rosina nee Cullmer.
Jane is married, aged 27, a paper bag maker born in Hoxton.
RG12; Piece: 248; Folio 11; Page 15
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London Marriages
Isbella Cullmer 26 Feb 1758 Henry Clark Saint Mary, Whitechapel
Elizabeth Cullmer 12 Aug 1797 Thomas Martin Saint John Of Wapping
Edward Cullmer 19 Apr 1830 Annie Gardner Cole Saint Mary Alfreds parents
Ellen Cullmer abt 1854 25 May 1890 Warren Ingram Saint Peter Ellen herself
Alfred Cullmer 23 Dec 1857 Mary Hall Saint Paul, Bunhill Row transcribed here as HAll but looks like Hale
Georgette Cullmer 24 Jun 1888 Noble Edwin Smith Saint John The Evangelist, Kensal Green
(Rosinas sister)
Annie Susan Cullmer 14 Sep 1859 Alfred Urwin Saint Paul, Bunhill Row Alfred senior sister
Alfred Cullmer abt 1860 6 Sep 1880 Eleanor Sampson St Leonard Shoreditch Alfred Junior
George Cullmer2 Jun 1887 Jenney Onken Saint John The Baptist, our George
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so Jane , Rosina and Georgette belong to Annie - Alfred seniors sister
so that leaves only one possible child for Alfred & Mary
Ellen Emily :)
cracked by process of elimination - brilliant
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I don't think so (although my brain is slightly fried!)
On Georgette's marriage cert, her father is William Cullmer, bag handle maker.
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Edward married Annie G Cole and had (at least) 2 children:
Alfred and Annie Susan.
Alfred married Mary Hale and had Frederick and George (plus others possibly) then took up with Ellen Wheeler.
Annie Susan married Alfred Urwin (because they couldn't possibly marry someone with a different name) and had umpteen children including:
Georgette (1858)
Ann (1863)
Robert (1865)
Rosina (1867)
Sarah (1868)
Richard (1870)
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SpiderMonkey err yes join the club, everyone's brain is the same.
I can see that Alfred Cullmer snr. being a bag handle maker could have introduced his sister Annie to someone ie. Alfred/William in the same trade, but I wonder if this change of name was inbred in the families?
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so not only are they a bunch of crims but they are a bunch of inbreds too ;D ;D ;D
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1841 census all NBIC
Limehouse Middlesex
Edward Cullmer 25 carpenter
Anne 35
Mary 12
George 9
Susan 8
Alfred 6
HO107 701; 6; 11; 14
Spider Monkey this is the 1841 for Ed & wife Annie with children
there is a possible death for a Susan Cullmer that fits with the one born here but then we have the marriage for Annie Susan :-\
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And marriage cert for Annie SUsan gives Edward Collmer, carpenter as father.
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i know relationships weren't given on the 1841 census and ages were rounded down but does this give enough leeway for Ed to be father to Mary ?
see your reply Spidermonkey Edward was a carpenter yes
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One thing that has slightly bugged me is that Edward Cullmer was a carpenter and yet from Alfred onwards they all seamed to be involved in the leather trade. I guess Alfred snr, could have gone outside the building trade but something somewhere doesn't seem quite right.
I noticed as well a few posts back a brush maker was mentioned, that made me wonder about them perhaps having traveller ancestors.
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they were NBIC in 1841
i am looking at Edwards marriage image
Edward Cullmer of the dirstrict rectory of All Souls in the parish of Marylebone Bachelor
Annie Gardener Coledo. do. spinster
married in this church by banns (the Church being All Souls St Marylebone Middlesex)
on the nineteenth day of April 1830
so Edward couldnt really be 25 in 1841 could he :-\
witnesses
William Cole, George Cole
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Toni That marriage bugs me as well because in 1841 they all said not born in Middlesex.
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Thinking back to that marriage could Edward father of Alfred be a son of Edward and Annie?
Have we missed a generation out?
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the
death burial for Susan
Susan Culmer
10 Sep 1852
Age: 21 thus born circa 1831
Saint George, Bloomsbury : Camden Middlesex
Jaywit maybe Edwards other children were carpenters?
as we have concentrated on Alfred and then his family
Michael Franklin was a carpenter
re the marriage Jaywit if he was really 25 in 1841 than in 1830 he would have been 14 ok so ages were rounded down so he could have been up to 19 in reality but likei said is he old enough to father Mary (from the 1841 census) on top of that Annie is 10 years or thereabouts his senior
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Toni another submission from FamilySearch ;D ;D ;D
Edward Culmer b 1811, of Sturry, Kent
d 1849
Parents: George & Susan Culmer
m Annie Coles 1830
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Annie Susan Culmer christening: 21 Apr 1833 St Mary the Virgin, Dover, parents Edward and Annie
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Annie Susan Culmer christening: 21 Apr 1833 St Mary the Virgin, Dover, parents Edward and Annie
That ties in with Alfred saying he was born in Dover on one census
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Also at St Mary the Virgin - George Isaac CUlmer ch21 Apr 1833, bn 24 Aug 1831.
Have definitely seen him today ::)
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is that submitted Spidermonkey?
Jaywit
Burial
George Culmer (of Edward Street)
26 Feb 1854
45 thus born 1809
Saint Mary Islington : Middlesex
if Ed died 1849 i wont find him on later census but should find Annie , ps couldnt see an obvious burial for him will check death register
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Nope, extracted.
Knew I'd seen the name before - birth ref for Rosina Sarah Cullmer. Born to George Isaac and Sarah, address 10 Clerkenwell Close. George is a fancy bag maker (well, he would be) and Rosina was ch May 25 1854 and bn on Jan 10 1852. St Sepulchre, Holborn
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Toni these are extracted baptisms .
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( only one George, he was baptised the same time as Annie Susan)
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i think they have this death
Deaths Mar 1849
Culmore Edward London 2 157
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Spidermonkey - no Mary or Alfred but he middle two children
could Mary be Coles or Gardener (Coles) ?
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I think its odds on that Edward and Annie did marry in 1830, so the 1811 marriage isn't correct.
Now why can't we find Alfred's baptism, unless they didn't bother having him baptised.
Maybe they moved to London shortly after his birth and it just got left.
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FWIW - George Isaac Culmer mar Sarah Smith mar qtr 1851 East London 2 230
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so Susan Culmer
there are 2
the one who married and the one who died
1851 for 'our' Susan
HO107; 1526; 26; 44;
St Bartholomew The Great (transcribed Cullner)
with mother Ann aged 39 head widow wash woman born warwickshire and Lucy Cole aged 33 sister wash woman born oxfordshire
Susan is 18 and also a wash woman
the other Susan Colmer [sic] b. 1829 London servant for the Pattens in Hampstead HO107; 1492; 312; 23;
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by 1861 she [Susan] had married Alfred Unwin
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possibly found Lucy Cole in 1861 as a servant but no sign of Annie
you were right about the travelling contingent Jaywit
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There is only one extracted record for Lucy Coles ch +/- 5 years 1817 and that is to Richard Coles and Martha, on 3 Apr 1818 Bodicote, Oxfordshire
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But no corresponding birth ref for Ann Coles with parents Richard and Martha in Warwickshire >:(
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:) and thats the one i found in 1861 well born 1818 Beddicott
RG9; 2176; 26; 45
Spidermonkey she was Gardner COle under Gardener possibly ?
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There is only one extracted record for Lucy Coles ch +/- 5 years 1817 and that is to Richard Coles and Martha, on 3 Apr 1818 Bodicote, Oxfordshire
Gve me a few minutes and I'll look on my Oxon Baptisms CD to see if it gives any more information about Lucy's parents.
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Lucy daughter of Richard and Martha Butcher.
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Deaths Jun 1855
Cullmer Ann E London 1c 25
is this her ? well shes not on 1861 census good starting point
on Susans marriage is Edward deceased and Alfreds for that matter
also Was ANnie or Edward a witness ?
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The only Gardner Cole is the marriage to Edward in 1830
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on Susans marriage is Edward deceased and Alfreds for that matter
also Was ANnie or Edward a witness ?
no no and no
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Lucy daughter of Richard and Martha Butcher.
Should have said butcher as occupation not surname.
Very little in Bodicote for Cole(s)
There is a burial of an 18 month old boy in 1831 and it says from Cirencester.
Warwickshire isn't far away from Bodicote and to my financial cost I know the families wandered from Oxon/Warwicks/Northants at will.
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Still following this but not much help im afraid...
Dont know if this helps from Oxfordshire Marriage Index
27 Aug 1817 Richard Cole, Bodicote to Martha Parish, Bodicote at Adderbury
Added.. Cant find any other Richard Cole/s in Bodicote
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Martha wasn't baptised at either Bodicote or Adderbury.
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Spidermonkey you mentioned Thomas Trew earlier - i hadn't come across him before althougth no-one seems to be indicted with him but he appears as a witness to a marriage
i am assuming (rather dangerously ) that he is just another acquaintance like Mr Capsey MR Loveday and Mr Whitehead
225. THOMAS GEORGE TREW (47) , Feloniously setting fire to a dwelling-house at Walthamstow, Essex, on 21st October, 1890, with intent to injure and defraud. Third Count, for setting fire to goods in the dwelling-house.
Alexander Roberts auctioneer, of Conduit Street in the trial of Richard Capsey
I know a great number of fires are caused by paraffin lamps; I don't know that between 400 and 500 are so caused every year in London.
I have no means of knowing how many are accidental and how many intentional
food for thought howeer the numerous insurance policies taken out would suggest these ones were for fraudlent purposes
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Do you want to have a look at these peripheral characters to see if they all link back at some point?
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i quickly scanned the papers for Thomas Trew and Frederick Whitehead is mentioned
Spidermonkey i dont know if they have an actual blood connection but they all were def. involved with these frauds / arsons and knew each other.
the criminal underworld of their day do you think ?
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The way that Thomas and Ellen's sentences are linked in the ANcestry criminal index made me think that they were all in it together, but that could be a false assumption
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Do any of them reoffend after their prison sentences in 1891? I wonder if there was a specific reason that they needed the money?
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i quickly scanned the papers for Thomas Trew and Frederick Whitehead is mentioned
No its not a false assumption i didnt realsie they were linked but have now found this also from Thomas Trews papers
WILLIAM WILLIAMSON (Detective Officer). On 6th November, at half-past two in the afternoon, I was with Inspector Dinney in Park Street, Holloway, and saw the prisoner; I told him I was a police officer, and held a warrant for his arrest, for being concerned with several others in conspiracy and fraud for obtaining money from various fire offices—he said, "Yes, right; I had a fire at Walthamstow, in the name of Taylor; I got into it, I must get out of it"—I conveyed him to Hoxton Police-station, where he was detained till eleven at night; I was then about to convey him in a cab to Southwark Police-station—he said, "How many of the others have you got? Have you arrested the one who informed against us?"—at Southwark station he was charged; he made no reply—I searched him there, and found this book on him, containing the names of Mrs. Ingram and George Culmer, and there are some figures opposite Culmer's name, "£2 10s. 7d.," and "piano £6"
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Do any of them reoffend after their prison sentences in 1891? I wonder if there was a specific reason that they needed the money?
i was sure i found Ellen Ingram in prison in 1911 - she absconded in Feb 1891 and thus wasnt sent down but i cant find her now so i think that was just wishful thinking on my part
the Old Bailey records go up to 1913 there doesnt seem to be mention of them after that
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this case mentions Mrs Culmer of Lower road Islington its dated 10th JUne 1844
1582. WILLIAM BURTON NEWENHAM was indicted for unlawfully taking Frances Louisa Wortham, a girl under 16 years of age, out of the possession, and against the will of Jane Wortham, her mother.
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this one def. refers to George Culmer - another one i had missed
60. ARTHUR MUCKLESTON LEACH (38) and HENRY COVE (27) , Feloniously setting fire to a certain dwelling-house in the occupation of Leach, with intent to defraud.
16 Nov 1891
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Thomas Trew has George Bush as a police sergeant - made me laugh anyway
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this case mentions Mrs Culmer of Lower road Islington its dated 10th JUne 1844
1582. WILLIAM BURTON NEWENHAM was indicted for unlawfully taking Frances Louisa Wortham, a girl under 16 years of age, out of the possession, and against the will of Jane Wortham, her mother.
It keeps coming back to Islington.
I looked at Thomas Trew in 1881 and his youngest child was born in Islington.
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it doesnt actually say much about Mrs Culmer but in 1841 'our' Culmers were at Limehouse
remember Alfred CUlmer also 'kidnapped' a girl in 1860
this other case is also a kidnapping case
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Toni I think Ellen Elizabeth Ingram says dob 1848 is in Wandsworth district in 1911, in a household not an instution.
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thanks Jaywit
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have to go now, i may be able to get online tonight if not it will be tomorrow fare thee well dear friends :)
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I'm running out of steam again, don't know where and what to look for next. ;D ;D
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Toni I think Ellen Elizabeth Ingram says dob 1848 is in Wandsworth district in 1911, in a household not an instution.
She is with her siblings:
Henry Edward (69) Retd newsagent
Jane (58) invalid
Richard (50)enginefitter
All born westminster
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Oh well Spider, not her then.
I have posibly found a baptism for Martha Parish, wife of Richard Cole.
It's at Bloxham 18/3/1798 daughter of Edward and Elizabeth.
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There appears to be a lot on the Coles submitted etc on FamilySearch including this.
Information removed due to copyright violation. See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php for more details
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Just wondered Richard's second wife Ann Garner.
Annie Gardiner Cole???? mentioned earlier as Edward's wife
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Martha Coles buried at Bodicote Nov 1837 age 39, so ties up with the baptism.
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Going back to one of the big problems, where were Mary and the children in 1861 and 1871?
In 1881 Alfred jnr and wife Eleanor are in Hoxton, Alfred has the same occupation as his father.
Did he work with his father from leaving school?
We know in 1871 he isn't with his father and Ellen.
We also know athough we can't find Alfred snr. in 1861 he was in Hoxton just before then kidnapping Emily.
We also know from that case that Alfred and wife were mentioned, so was wife Mary around Hoxton all the time?
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Clutching at straws in 1871.
RG10/442/105 p 4.
Mary Coleman, 34, widow, bag handle maker born Shoreditch, with Alfred 12 and Rose 13.
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Not any of our names in Wandsworth 1891 night.
Except a George Loveday. Married 44 Confectioner..... on last page ::) pg 42
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Not any of our names in Wandsworth 1891 night.
Except a George Loveday. Married 44 Confectioner..... on last page ::) pg 42
Confectioner, thats what Warren said he was on his marriage certificate yet we know he was a bus driver.
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On Times Archive I've found a couple of articles which make fascinating reading about some of our characters. They're pdf docs, so I think I can PM them to Toni, but would anyone else like to have a copy sent to them?
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Actually, can't attach them to PMs.
I wonder if I can attach them to here so they can be downloaded, but are not visible on screen to infringe copyright?
Doh, can't even attach them here. ::)
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Spider Can you give us a short resume?
You would need E mail addresses to send them.
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http://rmhh.co.uk/occup/p.html
looking at the Portmaneau. Alfred Cullmer snr. and George made the handles ?
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Yup, brief accounts to follow!
The Times 20 Dec 1890
At Southwark, William Trew, 47, alias Taylor; George Cullmer 26, alias Franklin and a dozen other aliases; Richard Capsey, 30, alias Hood; Warren Ingram, 36, alias Jones; George Loveday, 40; and Helen Wheeler, 70, alias Crowley, Thornton, Corrie and Hichin were again brought up and charged with setting fire to dwelling houses.
Evidence given by Whitehead, on 12 August Whitehead and Cullmer went to Warren Ingram's house where they had received a telegram saying Loveday's house was to be fired. Whitehead, Mrs Ingram, Mrs Capsey and Cullmer went to Loveday's house, with Mrs Ingram and Cullmer setting fire to the house.
Prisoners were remanded for a week and refused bail
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Ellen Ingram did have a brother Harry (maybe Henry) and son Sydney
Jaywit interesting find re Richard Cole & Ann Garner looks promising and it looks as if the Coles were travellers of some sort so maybe te romany roots site might help there
Jaywit Alfred snr was livinf 7 Hatfield Road, alone his wife had left him by the time he had taken Emily Blackshaw back there in 1860 but she must have only recently left him - with the birth of ellen emily in 1859
Les - yup thats our George
Spidermonkey will send you PM with my email
PS Jenny Cullmer nee Onken is missing off census too
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i knew Richard Capsey & george Loveday were married
can we find their wifes names - it would be nice to have a name for them thats the only purpose!
Also Frederick Whitehead was married with a child but his wife and child were not living with him in 1891
i think his wife came from 'up north' i don't know why i think that so maybe not worth me sayingnaything
again could we find out their names - just to put a name to a face
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Richard Capsey was a plasterer, at least a different occupation.
He is here in 1881, with a daughter named Rosina, that name keeps cropping up.
RG11/ 1385/133 p 36
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The Times 3 Jan 1891
At Southwark yesterday, Thomas George Trew, 40, alias Taylor; George Cullmer, 30, alias Franklin, alias COleman; Warren Ingram, 30; Richard Capsy, 32, alias Smith; George Loveday, 40, and Ellen Wheeler, 70, a widow, were again brought up charged with conspiring to defraud.
Again Whitehead is giving evidence. He says that Ellen, Mrs Ingram and Cullmer told him how easy it was to make money and that he could have a few fires. Whitehead explains how he made money by pretending to be the owner of goods, whilst Cullmer would take the bulk of hte money for setting up the fire. Whitehead denies telling Mrs Capsey that she should leave her husband and live with him!
CUllmer also taught him how to make bag handles ::) and they were in partnership together for a time.
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Looks like Richard's wife was possibly Eliza Hood.
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RootsChat must deal with any breach of copyright by its members.
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It's June qtr 1c 301.
Toni I'm not happy with that second wife Ann Garner, Lucy died after civil registration was introduced so we should be able to find that marriage and I can''t yet. Neither can I find Richard on the 1841 census at the moment.
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The Times 3 Jan 1891
At Southwark yesterday, Thomas George Trew, 40, alias Taylor; George Cullmer, 30, alias Franklin, alias COleman; Warren Ingram, 30; Richard Capsy, 32, alias Smith; George Loveday, 40, and Ellen Wheeler, 70, a widow, were again brought up charged with conspiring to defraud.
Again Whitehead is giving evidence. He says that Ellen, Mrs Ingram and Cullmer told him how easy it was to make money and that he could have a few fires. Whitehead explains how he made money by pretending to be the owner of goods, whilst Cullmer would take the bulk of hte money for setting up the fire. Whitehead denies telling Mrs Capsey that she should leave her husband and live with him!
CUllmer also taught him how to make bag handles ::) and they were in partnership together for a time.
What about that Mary Coleman I found in 1871?
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Hood - i have seen that name before
Mary Coleman - do you mean for Mary Hale / Cullmer ?
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Spidermonkey any chance you could list each person and their aliases from the newspaper article - maybe they are hiding under those names
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Clutching at straws in 1871.
Class: RG10; Piece: 442; Folio: 105; Page: 4; GSU roll: 823359.
Mary Coleman, 34, widow, bag handle maker born Shoreditch, with Alfred 12 and Rose 13.
Yes
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Final article (and then I'll list them by alias, Toni!)
17 Feb 1891
George Culmer, 25 (getting younger by the crime!) was indicted for setting fire to a dwelling house with Whitehead, who would be called as a witness. Culmer, also known as Wilson, spoke to Whitehead in Oct 1889 about making money from fires
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Aliases:
William Trew AKA Taylor
George Cullmer AKA Franklin, Coleman, Wilson, Richards, English, Herbert Brown,
Richard Capsey AKA Hood, Smith, Kerry
Warren Ingram AKA Jones
George Loveday
Helen Wheeler AKA Crowley, Thornton, Corrie and Hichin
Thomas George Trew AKA Taylor
I think somewhere I read that Taylor was Trew's stepfather's name......
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Ellen Wheeler snr. also used the name Franklin, it was her maiden name.
Ellen Wheeler jnr. used Cullmer and Ingram even when she wasn't married to either of the 2 men with those names.
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Richard Capsey was on his second marriage in 1911. Fortunately for us, he made a complete pigs ear of filling the form in, so we seem to know how many children he had from his first marriage (12, of which 7 are living and 5 are dead)
Richard is 51, a plasterer, bn Hackney.
Wife Ellen ( ::)) 41, bn Camberwell
Children Elise? 15, Charles, 9, Lily, 3 all born Walthamstow
James Day (by former marriage), 14, bn Walthamstow
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Thanks :)
no mention of ARTHUR MUCKLESTON LEACH (38) and HENRY COVE (27)
they used differwent first names too ::)
Herbert Brown
Kate Cranley
Louisa Corrie
Lucy Ingram
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1911: Thomas Trew, 67, is with his wife Sarah, 65. THey have been married for 46 years, had 18 children, only 5 of whom are still living. :'( He is an unemployed French Polisher bn James St Oxton (?) Shoreditch. Sarah bn William St, Shoreditch.
They have a daughter living with them: Mary, single, 24, blouse maker bn Ringer St, Islington
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William Trew - where did he come from ? i thought there was only Thomas
Frederick Whitehead in Thomas Trews trial
FREDERICK WHITEHEAD . I was present in Rhode Street, Barnsbury, on the night the fire occurred there—I know Trew—Mrs. Wheeler and Mrs. Ingram went into the house; Mrs. Ingram had a key that would open the door—about five minutes after they came out the fire broke out—a policeman was passing at the time—I went towards it.
Cross-examined. The outbreak was from half-past eleven to twenty minutes to twelve—I knew they were going in—I suggest they went in for the purpose of setting the house on fire—I was watching them, not assisting them—I was simply a spectator; I only took part in it as a looker-on—I was invited to look on at the blaze—I was not to get anything out of it—I determined to give evidence in September, 1890, because I feared that "through some incendiary fire loss of life would occur I had no fear of being in danger myself—I volunteered it—perhaps I had love of justice, but it was all fear of loss of life; I will bar justice—that is as true as that I was invited to look on at the fire.
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thats sad about the children
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Toni I think he was Thomas William Trew.
Richard Capsey was already living with Ellen Day in 1901, they didn't marry until 1904.
RG13; Piece: 1623; Folio: 37; Page: 18.
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It was Thomas George Trew, perhaps William was an older brother (or yet another alias!)
Arthur Leach and Henry Cove feature in the Times on OCt 28, 1891. More arson and fraud, but there was a third person who hadn't been apprehended, going by the name of Adams.
Any takers for a bet that Cullmer was AKA Adams!
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If anyone had taken me up on the bet - I was wrong! Joseph James Adams appeared before court in 1892 charged with arson alongside Arthur M L.
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i was just reading through those papers they do mention Leach - Cove & Adams although it would seem that only Cover & LEach were charged
ARTHUR MUCKLESTON LEACH, HENRY COVE, Damage to Property > arson, 16th November 1891.
they must have aprehended Adams later (1892) as you just said
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1901. Wandsworth Prison.
page 34 Alfred Ingram 25 single carman Epping? Essex
no others.
both 1891 1901 are only men.
1901..
Finsbury
Clerkenwell
St James
51, Whiskin Street.
Susannah Smith W 49 London Houndsditch
Warren Ingram Single 36 Boarder Carman Rutland NK
I thought this had been posted but put in RC search and nothing shows up.
So posting anyway.
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Joseph J Adams in 1891, a bit younger than some of the others. A French Polisher.
RG12/259/7 p8
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Thomas George Trew mar Sarah Keen at St John the Baptist, Hoxton
6 Mar 1865. He was a bachelor, full age, french polisher of 9 Curtain Row. Father Robert Trew, dyer (deceased)
Sarah was a minor, living at 98 Curtain Row, father Benjamin Keen, cork cutter.
Witnesses George Keen and Henry Keen
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So was Joseph Adams drawn into the plot by Thomas Trew?
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1851 census:
Morden St, Rochester St Margarets
Robert Trew Head Mar 35 Dyer, scourer etc bn Middlesex
Elizth Ann Trew Wife Mar 35 bn Middx Southall
THomas George Trew Son 7 Scholar bn Middx Shoreditch
Eliza Trew Dau 3 bn Kent Rochester
Alfred Trew Son 10 days bn Kent Rochester
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So was Joseph Adams drawn into the plot by Thomas Trew?
Maybe - there are so many links and hints that you can feel the network!
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Was there an age for A M Leach? There are 2, father and son, father was an architect and surveyor
Edit Just seen Toni's message further up. It was the father then.
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Robert & Sarah Ingram b. Belton ended up over Essex way in Thaxted - these are Warrens parents
Warren was the youngest child
i do have all the details for these Ingrams
Warren being the gt gt gt (gt?) uncle of my OH
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James Lewis cross examined evidence in teh case of Arthur M L & Henry Cove
I told Leach when he came to my office on the 7th that I had heard warrants were issued against him, Adams, and several others; within five minutes of his arrival I told him that, and then one of my clerks brought in Dinney's name—I can suggest no one except myself who knew of the issue of the warrants who was connected in any way with the prisoner—I have had acquaintance with fires for twenty-five years past, some may have been incendiary—I have not acted on behalf of persons tried here—I did not act for Ingram as assessor, nor for Culmer; I know his name, he was tried here—he came and introduced himself to me as Franklin, and asked me to go to an insurance company to see what difficulty there was in his getting his money; that was not the office I fulfilled with regard to Leach
(JAMES LEWIS . I am an auctioneer and appraiser, of 6, Southampton Buildings, Holborn—I was founder of the London Auxiliary Fire Brigade)
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Old Bailey site
571. JOSEPH JAMES ADAMS (54), JOSEPH BEECROFT (31), and HENRY FOURAKER (36) , Feloniously procuring Richard Beecroft to set fire to a house, 31, Pelham Street, Hastings; Other Counts, charging the prisoners as accessories before and after the fact.
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A M Leach snr. went to New York in 1896 and stayed in the USA until after 1920 before coming back to England to die. ( Tree on Ancestry)
Wonder if he wasn't allowed to practice in England?
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Toni, do you want the articles relating to AML sent as well?
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James Lewis cross examined evidence in teh case of Arthur M L & Henry Cove
I told Leach when he came to my office on the 7th that I had heard warrants were issued against him, Adams, and several others; within five minutes of his arrival I told him that, and then one of my clerks brought in Dinney's name—I can suggest no one except myself who knew of the issue of the warrants who was connected in any way with the prisoner—I have had acquaintance with fires for twenty-five years past, some may have been incendiary—I have not acted on behalf of persons tried here—I did not act for Ingram as assessor, nor for Culmer; I know his name, he was tried here—he came and introduced himself to me as Franklin, and asked me to go to an insurance company to see what difficulty there was in his getting his money; that was not the office I fulfilled with regard to Leach
(JAMES LEWIS . I am an auctioneer and appraiser, of 6, Southampton Buildings, Holborn—I was founder of the London Auxiliary Fire Brigade)
~~
Old Bailey site
571. JOSEPH JAMES ADAMS (54), JOSEPH BEECROFT (31), and HENRY FOURAKER (36) , Feloniously procuring Richard Beecroft to set fire to a house, 31, Pelham Street, Hastings; Other Counts, charging the prisoners as accessories before and after the fact.
So Joseph James Adams was 54 in 1892?
So I must have had the wrong one, wonder if it's his father?
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There's a Joseph living in Islington correct age in 1881, he is a lampmaker, good trade to have in your gang.
RG11/ 241/ 88 p 33
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Joseph J Adams in 1891, a bit younger than some of the others. A French Polisher.
RG12; Piece: 259; Folio 7; Page 8; GSU roll: 6095369
was just going to ask his age in 1891 did it macth with 54 in 1892 but you have already answered :)
it does seem hoeevr that J J Adams was a novist at this - the insurance policy wasnt transferred for the property in Hastings (although thwere were a few other fires mentioned it also seems they occurred int he same area so the same salvage corps went to the fires obviously they would have recognised J J Adams
Arthur Boland - Salvage Corps
about two days after Joseph Adams came there with Eccles and Henry Core—Adams was there on several occasions, but Cove only on one—they went over the premises—Leach came there once—I saw those four there together
it is def. the right JJ Adams on the Old Bailey site there is mention of Leach & Cover in the documetns
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A M L snr mar Isabella Jane Marguerite Farr Apr 12 1880. His father is another one who apparently is a gentleman! :P Goes by the name Christopher Leach
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It has been drawn to our attention that there is some blatant flouting of the RootsChat Copyright Policy (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php) here. Information has obviously been copied and pasted from a copyright source. Please DO NOT DO THIS. You would hate us even more than you do now if we deleted this thread because it contravened the copyright policy. Please, we do not want to see any more "." "GSU roll" (since when did anyone see that on a census image ::) ) "Disc #" "Pin #" If you wish to go back and 'clean it up' before we get to it, that's fine but editing is about to commence.
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AML Was definitely a cut above the others. You wonder why he was involved with them.
I'm calling it a day now, see you tomorrow
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JJ Adams trial outcome
BEECROFT and FOURAKER— NOT GUILTY .
ADAMS— GUILTY — Six Years' Penal Servitude.
also mentioned (several times) is George Eccles
just seem to be adding more and more people to the gang - more people to split the insurance premium betwixt.
as isd Herbet Reynolds who was later discharged by the magistrate
Walter Dinney is involved again - how many policeman did they have in London and it always seems to be Inspector Dinney
JJ Adams father is Joseph Adams snr
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sorry i thought by quoting source and only using a snippet i wasnt in breach of copyright
sorry if thats not the case
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PS Jenny Cullmer nee Onken is missing off census too
Spelt Jenney on marriage cert
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i still cant spot her ;)
can you bring the marriage details forward please
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Toni, do you want the articles relating to AML sent as well?
yes please - why not
it all adds to the intrigue and dare i say excitement or is that the wrong word!
am checking for Frederick Whitehead on the Old Bailey site - he seems to be the informant
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Jenney Onken 23 on marriage 02 June 1887
therefore born abt 1864
Father Name: Henry Onken
1871 for Jenney / Jane - i think
RG10; 456; 41; 25
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Shame CE didn't give Jaywit chance to sort the posts.....
not even a minute had passed..... but nothing unusual there... ::)
Maybe spend tomoz collating and summarizing.
Putting all info from census finds etc.... keep you busy.... Been a good hunt ;)
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i cant see Jenny in 1881 under Jenney or Jane i input surname Onken
i cant see her fatehr Henry either
found Alfred jnr i think we already have it though
Alfred CULLMER Head M 21 Shoreditch, Leather Goods Maker
Eleanor CULLMER Wife M 18 Harrow Bridge, Devon,
Henry KINOLD Lodger W 62 Enfield, Lab Stableman ( H man)
86 Pitfield St London, Middlesex, England
RG11 0394 / 86 1
Mary Kinsol gave eveidence in one of the trials
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AML 1881
Christopher LEACH Head W 68 St Geo, Surrey, Retired Publican
Arthur M. Son M 28 do. Architect
Isabella LEACH Daur In Law M 20 India
Selina LEACH Daur U 22 St Geo, Surrey,
Frank LEACH Son U 20 do. Founders Metal Merchant
Arthur M. LEACH Grand Son Male 1 m b.do.
Ellen KERXKING Visitor U 25 London Parish Drapers Assistant
Emily DAWSON Servant U 15 Serv Domestic
125 St Georges Rd Southwark
RG11 0531 / 20 20
could they possibly all be related in a round about sort of way ?
would they take in 'outsiders' to their gang?
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Not being of the criminal persuasion meself, I find it hard to believe that you could randomly meet someone and say "oh by the way, fancy setting fire to a few houses and making a bob or two".
Methinks they must be linked in some way - remembering that in a small community 'cousinship' can be quite an elastic term.
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Hoxton... St John Bapt....
seems to be quite a hub... ;)
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Hoxton... St John Bapt....
seems to be quite a hub... ;)
;D can't see them as Sunday School candidates!
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There's several Publican's - Licensed Vic's - Retired L.V's....
Might be useful to find the Pub's..... ;D
;) could be local to some of your addresses Toni...
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Morning
one would assume that they had a regular meeting place
and on reading the articles sent over by Spidermonkey it would seem that perhaps it was at Mrs Ingrams house - named inthe court documents as 38 Ringcrioft Road Holloway.
I do have to agree that a local pub might be a good meeting point and i also agree with spidermonkey where she says you wouldn't walk up to a stranger and say fancy setting a few fires!
Frederick Whitehead however was known to the gang for 11/12 years before his involvement or before he spilled the beans.
It is common - even today- that criminals start out with small crimes and as they get more confident the crimes grow
for example a murderer is likely to have previous convictions maybe for assualt , an armed robber is likely to have previous convictions for burgarly etc etc
There doesnt seem to be any reference to them commiting further crimes after 1891 maybe prison inthose days did the trick.
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Mary Coleman who we think is a likely candidate for Mary Cullmer nee Hale with young Alfred & Rose is it possible to rule her in/out i.e. if she appears elsewhere ont he same census as Mary Cullmer than it is unlikely to be who we seek!
i shall read through and do a summary
you guys have been great :)
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Hi All,
Wonder if any of these families would fit in ......
Enter Cullmer in Name and enter soundex in spelling
http://www.1881pubs.com/Search.asp
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still summing up but i wonder if we could look then to see if all the culprits were related or maybe they were best friends at a factory or similar and laid off thus they had to make some money.
who was the driving force (brains) behing this gang?
I dont think it was Warren Ingram
but it could be Ellen Wheeler (the older one) or George Cullmer
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Hi All,
Wonder if any of these families would fit in ......
All near spellings of Cullmer...1881......
http://www.1881pubs.com/results.asp
i'm getting this
Your search has produced over 500 results. Please go back and refine your search criteria
from that llnk :-\
what was your search criteria ?
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Sorry Toni ...hope link works now.... :)
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Spidermonkey where you said George cullmer had a dozen other aliases i thought this was you summing up but it actually says that in the article! ;D
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;D Perhaps our next hunt can be to find all of the aliases!
My money is on George Cullmer being the instigator, but reading between the lines of the articles - which I will happily email over to anybody who wants to read them, just PM me with your email addy - the women seem to have been right at the heart of the crimes.
What I don't get is how come Mrs Ingram/Ellen jnr wasn't put on trial when she seemed to be a key member :-\
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Have you seen this already Toni?
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=NOT18910616.2.21&l=mi&e=-------10--1----0i+muri+ahiahi-all
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What a fantastic article...........really brings it to life. What a family you have Toni ;D ;D ;D
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Oh wow!
And that confirms so much of our thinking aswell.
Good find!
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So Alfred senior was known as George and seems to have been the initial instigator before his son took over. Ellen junior seems to have been more than just an assistant though!
Fabulous article, thanks for posting the link jamajo :D
Jan ;)
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Toni this is going so well.............do you want a 'Part 2'.......??
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Reading through the article, it very definitely stated that George was Ellen jnr's son, so can we now narrow down a time period and look at children who were born to 'The Fire King' senior ;) and his first wife?
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As Toni's away right now........I've done a Part 2 with a link to this thread and a link to the article Jamajo found.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,430514.0.html
Please don't post on this thread any more..........thanks.
Barbara