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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Garnet on Tuesday 12 January 10 12:28 GMT (UK)
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I am unable to find details of the marriage between
George Nobles and Mary Jane Sandilands. They lived in Hampstead. The marriage would have taken place around 1871/1872. George was a widower in 1871 and Mary Jane was still single then. She was Scottish but I cannot find the record on Scotlands People.
Many thanks, Garnet.
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Hi Still single in 1871 census. Both working at the same house The Heathlands North End Road Hampstead RG10/191/fol 5
Mary Jane Sandilands serv 21 Nursemaid born Scotland
George Nobles head 37 wid Coachman born Sharnbrook Beds
Mary Ann dau 9 Hampstead
Jane Mary serv 14 domestic Sharnbrook
Samuel serv 29 Groom Sharnbrook
1891 106/77 The Heathlands Stables
Head of main household Hugh M Matheson East India Merchant born Scotland
There seems a strong Scottish theme going on . Houses either side are owned by scots!
George Nobles 55 Groom Sharnbrook Beds
Mary Jane 41 Scotland
Mary Jane 18 Kitchenmaid
Walter 17 gardiner
Sarah 13
Alice Ada 11
All children given as born Hampstead
Jennifer
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1901 census 121/fol 8
Sarah Nobles 23 Nurse born Hampstead Serv in the house hold of a Scottish Presbyterian minister 8 Thurlows Road Hampstead
1901 census 81/fol 56
Mary Jane Noble 28 Cook Thomas's Hotel 25 Berkley Square born Hayton near East Carlise Cumberland
Jennifer
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1881 census RG11/3/50 12 Clarendon Street
Samuel Noble 44 Coachman Sharnbrook Beds
Charlotte 37 Hindon
Mary 8 St.Pancras
Florence 6 Paddington
Kate 1 month Paddington
A Samuel Noble married a Charlotte Thurlow June qtr 1873 Kensington. If this is George's brother his marriage would give father's name.
Jennifer
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Samuel's father is given as James NOBLE, labourer. Marriage was at St Michael & All Angels, Ladbroke Grove, 1 Jun 1873.
Ian C
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Hi Ian, It looks as though they may have been cousins. IGI bap. Samuel bap 16/7/1837 parents James & Elizabeth -
George 14/7/1833 parents John & Elizabeth.
Jennifer
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Hi, 1861 census RG9/92/fol 87 Heathlands Stables Hampstead
George Nobles 26 wid Coachman Sharnbrook Beds
George 6 son "
Elizabeth 5 dau "
Ann 18 sister gen. serv. "
A George Nobles married Bedford Dec. qtr 1852 Bedford brides could be Sarah Smith or Sarah Ellis
Elizabeth Nobles reg. Bedford 1856 Mar qtr would give mothers name if not already known.
Jennifer
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Hi, very easy to go backwards, John Noble married Elizabeth Pacey 24/6/1827 Sharnbrook. But this does not help us find George & Mary Jane's marriage does it!!
Have you bought more than one birth certificate to check spelling of her name? I would have thought they would have to have got married as they worked at the same house.
Have you checked a marriage in Hampstead June qtr 1861 for a George Nobles only spouses shown are Mary Ann Gooch and Lucy Thomas.
Jennifer
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Thankyou everyone for your input. I already have all the information you all so kindly gave. It is the marriage details of George Nobles to Mary Jane Sandilands which I require and cannot find.
He married three times and I have all the relevant documents. The mother's name given on all the birth certificates for the children of his third marriage is
Mary Jane Sandilands. I have tried spelling variants, other districts etc to no avail. I am beginning to wonder whether there was indeed a wedding but cannot reason why there might not have been.
Thanks again, Garnet.
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Hi Garnet,
don't know if you're still searching for George and Mary Jane's wedding - I haven't been able to find it either, but am very much a beginner at this. Had just found their residence in the stables at Heathlands working for Mr Matheson this morning, and was looking up the map to get an idea of where and what it was like when your question came up on the google.
I am most interested in their daughter Louisa, who seems to have been born in Sharnbrook and perhaps cared for by her grandparents for a while, as Mary Jane would only have been 17 when she was born. She was my father's grandmother.
Family legend had her being put on a ship to Australia at 16 after the acquisition of a wicked stepmother and told to marry as quickly as she could. She did indeed arrive in 1882, at 16, and married (not my forebear) 2 years later.
Her large second family (mine) were mostly born before she married again on the death of the Legendary "Bad Man". And all born on a remote gold field in the Gulf of Carpentaria. What a brave girl.
It seems though, that there wasn't a wicked stepmother, just Mary Jane, and George seems to have been around for a time after her ship sailed.
Perhaps we can compare notes? Her story fascinates me - why she came to be sent away, with such a large country/city family who might have kept her, how on earth she faced outback Queensland?
So many puzzles!!!
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Morning, I was so surprised to find your message as I can't recall when I posted mine. No wonder I couldn't find Louisa on the later censuses! I'm unsure why you think she was born in Sharnbrook, as the Louisa I have in my records was born in Hampstead in 1867. Her mother wasn't Mary Jane but Mary Ann Gooch (my Gran's mother). She died a few months after Louisa was born and I've no doubt this is why she was staying in Sharnbrook with the grandparents. In fact that is where the mother died also. George remarried at a later date to Mary Jane Sandilands, but as you said there seems to be no trace of the record. I have never been able to trace my Gran's birth certificate which I find unusual as George, in my opinion, appears to be a good chap otherwise he wouldn't have been employed by Hugh Matheson until his retirement.
Any further help, just ask. I had a mammoth task in trying to connect up to this site, but I've got a new password and the web page seems to be behaving now. Regards.
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Louisa born 29 November 1867 from her baptism.
Jennifer
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Thank you Jennifer. It wasn't me wanting this information, it was Liz Martin, who believed Louisa had been born in Sharnbrook. I have the certificate anyway. Many thanks.
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Hi Garnet and Jennifer,
how exciting ! the plot thickens.
I had originally logged Louisa as born in Hampstead, as she was registered and christened there, but acquired a copy of her marriage registration to William Cole on which she gave her place of birth as Sharnbrook, and her mother as Mary Jane Sandilands.
I have her birth certificate on order, but was waiting with bated breath to find out what it said. Had thought that Mary Ann G was a red herring!
As Mary Jane was only 17 and in service at Heathlands at the time of her birth, all sorts of alternate scenarios occurred to me.....
George does seem like a good chap though - and he seems to have lived out a long life at Heathlands. The whole household came alive for me last night when I realised that he wasn't just a coachman to any old family - what a discovery.
It still baffles me what it must have taken to be put on that ship though. Perhaps she clashed with Mary Jane.
Have you come across any clues along your way?
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Good morning, well you have opened a can of worms. I discovered I did this particular section of the research in 2010! I am so pleased to find a person who has actually gone out of their way to get the certificates. My stack of them has cost me a fortune over the years but they can bring surprising results as you have found. You will see that Louisa was in fact born in Hampstead by George and Mary Ann Gooch. I was surprised to hear you had found a marriage because I haven't as yet found the reference. Taking into account that she was only a few months old when her real mother died, I'm not surprised she thought Mary Jane was her Mum. Such a lot can happen during the 10 years before the next census is taken and if she was brought up in Sharnbrook with the grandparents between the 2 census then according to her what was on the marriage certificate was correct. I don't suppose she was told the true story, which a lot of times was the case.
Yes I am very proud of my great granddad George, he did indeed work for someone well known as you have obviously found out. My one wish was to go and see the house but it was brought down during the war by a bomb, mores the pity. I have no clue as to why Louisa travelled to another country but if she was married at the time perhaps her husband said there's a better life somewhere else. Unless I can find the marriage ref. I won't know if this would be fact, but perhaps she married William Cole over there in which case I will not have access to the record.
George has always been a fascination for me, he was a character I think. If you go back into his line you will see he was married three times in all, with loads of children, a lot of whom died early.
Regards.
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Louisa was 13 in 1881 census which would be correct for her date of birth, so would have been 14 in 1882? Who did she travel with on the ship out, have you found any ships records?
Jennifer
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Louisa left Portsmouth 4 June 1882, on the ROMA. The passenger list doc is really interesting, as it lists passengers disembarking at each Australian port, starting with Cooktown on 21 July. The vessel index only mentions arrival in Cooktown, but it stopped all the way down the coast, and Louisa eventually disembarked in Rockhampton. The passengers are listed separately as ‘saloon’, ‘steerage’, ‘free’ & ‘remittance’ – Louisa was on the ‘free’ list.
Her age is given as 16, but she would in fact just have been coming up on 15, as she was born on 29 Nov 1867, christened at Christchurch, Hampstead 9 Feb 1868 (parish register). I am going to go back over the list of other passengers disembarking in Rockhampton and see if any other their names have cropped up in the Matheson house – perhaps she came out as a maid to someone they knew…….
Ancestry has been having a little window of free access to UK source documents over the last few days – it has been quite a treasure trove – I believe it runs until the evening of 15th February.
That is how I found out about the whole Heathland houseland, not just the fact that various Nobles’s lived a house in Hampstead – as I was suddenly able to see the handwritten census listings, and go back and forth between houses on North End Road. Here was I imagining a line of grim, grimy terraces – now I see central Queensland coming as even more of a shock to her than ever. I do wish I could have seen “Heathland”. Bloody Germans!
She married William Cole on 22 December 1884 (from Stepney, 40 years old, stationer) in Aramac, although both of them had usual residence in Muttaburra, she as a domestic servant. Three children, two of whom died very young, one girl who lived long enough to have a daughter herself, but die in the process. William eventually died in 1911, as a locksmith in Croydon, and Louisa finally married Jacob Mesh (orig. Mosch) with whom she had already had 7 children, the first of whom was my grandmother Alice.
So, now that I know where her Louisa’s little childhood was, I have to set to work in our State Archives to find out how she got from Rockhampton to Muttaburra, and then to the goldfields of Croydon to find my grandfather and have her second much larger family – all my great aunts and uncles! When I had my children, in the luxury of running water, and grocery shops a short trip away, I often thought of her, raising 7 in a tin hut with none of that at hand, and told myself to just get on with it and be very thankful…….
Have a look for Muttaburra on the google earth! Even though I was always familiar with the name, coming from North Queensland, it was quite a surprise to see how small and bare it is, in a vast long swathe of big and bare land. Such a hard exile it must have been - the gulf goldfields are a harsh place even now – I think she deserves a book in the family vault.
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Hi Liz, never mind a book it would make a brilliant film.
When and where did Louisa have her first child, this might help with a time line for her.
Jennifer
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Hi again Garnet,
it's been quite a year down the rabbit hole of the Nobles family - I have collected pretty much all of them, b/d/m's, children etc. Almost feel as if I know them.
Just a quick note to say I have found George and Mary Jane's marriage. Had come to a dead end, but thought it was because the Holy Trinity Presbyterian Hampstead marriage records were missing. That is where all their brood were baptised, and where the Mathesons worshipped - in fact Hugh Mackay was at the head of the committee that had it built!
It was baffling me that they didn't show up on the FreeBDM index though - I suddenly realised that it is only for England and Wales!
Looked on Scotlands People, and there they are, married in Mary Jane's home town of Inveresk with Musselburgh, in 1871. Doesn't give a date, or even a quarter, but after census time I suppose, and before first child.
oh, not sure if you know this bit, but I found Mary Ann in the house next door to Heathlands as a maid, before she married George. One of the witnesses to their marriage, Edward Jabez Pratt, was in service there. It's called "The Hill", and was home to one of the Gurney Hoare families, who come from Norfolk originally, and that is where Mary Ann and Mr Pratt came from too. She was from Caston. It was a bit baffling at first, as the census seemed to be saying "Cawston" - I stumbled across a description of the Norfolk accent somewhere along the line, and I think someone must have written down her response, as that is how it would be said by a native.
Do you know, I hadn't thought of this last year when we were conversing, but it just struck me that you are my cousin! DOH!! It's nice to know that someone else is remembering George. If you would like to see my collection so far, it is on the big A site, called The Coachmans Daughter. I also have one called the Coachmans Master with all the Mathesons, church and business associates who had Nobles family in their houses at one time or another.
regards
Liz