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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: igeoff on Wednesday 13 January 10 08:21 GMT (UK)
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I posted the following message on the Lanarkshire bulletin board, but I do not really understand the Scottish shires. It probably is mainly about Glasgow, so perhaps it belongs here. Here is the message:
I am interested in Jessie Crown and Philip Cohen, my mother's parents, who came to Australia from Glasgow in the early 1900s: probably in mid 1912.
I have their marriage in 1910 and thus the names of their parents: Solomon and Ethel Crown (nee Black), and Isaac and Annie Cohen (nee Hertz). I also have Solomon's 1906 death record.
Certainly Jessie and her father and probably her siblings (Lena, Bessie and a male) came to Scotland in the early 1900s from the Russian Baltic States (the Pale). Similarly, Philip who was born in present day Lithuania also came from there with or (more likely) without parents and siblings.
I would like to know: more about any of these eg when/how they arrived or departed; even better still, their history before arriving in Scotland...
I would also like to know more about Jessie's siblings (Lena married a Mr Swirsky and the family eventually became Swan; I understand a Leon Swan, who probably is in his 90s still lives in Glasgow).
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You may be able to find out if any other family members came to Australia with them by looking at the passenger lists. eg
Queensland Index to Arrivals in Brisbane and Queensland Ports 1900-1915
http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/191083
How old were Jessie and Philip when they married?
Have you looked at the Scottish 1901 census to see if any of them had arrived by that date? If they are not there then you may just have to be patient and wait another year until the 1911 census records become available.
You say that you have Solomon's death certificate. Does it state whether he was a widower or not? Who registered the death, was it one of his children?
Do you know in which area of Glasgow they lived?
Have you looked for deaths of the other family members you have named?
Scotland's People have a listing for the death of a Lena Crown, other name Swirsky in 1974 aged 75, Glasgow, Lanarkshire.
Kirsty
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There is a Solomon Crown in the 1901 census on SP, in Gorbals, Glasgow, aged 36.
He is not in Scotland in the 1891 census.
The name Crown is not common in Scotland. In the 1901 census there are only 36 in the country, 13 of them in Lanarkshire. In 1891 there were 31 in the country. Maybe the difference is the arrival of your family?
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Thanks Kirsty; my responses are in italics below:
You may be able to find out if any other family members came to Australia with them by looking at the passenger lists. eg
Queensland Index to Arrivals in Brisbane and Queensland Ports 1900-1915
http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/191083
I believe they came to Sydney. I'll be asking relatives in Sydney to do this -- but they may not be motivated :)
How old were Jessie and Philip when they married?
Have you looked at the Scottish 1901 census to see if any of them had arrived by that date? If they are not there then you may just have to be patient and wait another year until the 1911 census records become available.
Yes. I have looked there. Solomon is there as a boarder, married, aged 36, Cabinetmaker at 17 Thistle Street, Govan, Hutchesontown, Glasgow. All of this is consistent with his death record of 12 March 1906 in the Govan Poorhouse [but his residence was now 65 Thistle Street] Just saw your second post. Thanks for doing that!. Ethel, his wife (nee Black) appears as his wife on the death entry and on Philip and Jessie's 1910 marriage record. Philip and his clan appear nowhere before the marriage, where his parents are named and Solomon is said to be deceased.
You say that you have Solomon's death certificate. Does it state whether he was a widower or not? Who registered the death, was it one of his children?
see above: Solomon was married when he died. A nephew, who lived at 130 Thistle Street, registered the birth.
Do you know in which area of Glasgow they lived?
Thistle Street for the Crowns, by the look of it -- see above. Jessie and Philip's address on marriage is 26 Aitkenhead Road, Glasgow. Looks like modern day Aitkenhead Street is pretty long... Someone might know more about it in the early 20th century.
Have you looked for deaths of the other family members you have named?
Solomon is the only one of the older generation I have found. Of course I have Jessie and Philip (my grandparents), in Sydney, Australia. I have not looked hard for Lena or Bessie. My main aim, I think, is to try to trace Philip and Jessie back to entry into Scotland and, better still, to mainland and possibly Eastern Europe. But I would like to know who came to Scotland and I would LOVE to contact the Swan family
Scotland's People have a listing for the death of a Lena Crown, other name Swirsky in 1974 aged 75, Glasgow, Lanarkshire.
Thanks Kirsty, i think I have enough credits to follow that up!
Geoff
Kirsty
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Lena Crown married Mr Swirsky in 1824 Gorbals, Glasgow.
There is the birth of a male Swirsky in Lanarkshire in 1924 who could be Lena's son, but I won't post his details in case he is still alive.
The is an entry in the National Archives of Scotland naming Lena Swirksy or Brown* of Glasgow in 1931.
ref:CS318/74/171 http://www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/
I think it is to do with Bancruptcy.
*The Brown could be a mistranscription of Crown.
I don't know if this is relevant but a lot of the details are sounding like this family...
http://www.executive-lifecoaching.com/publications/books/fathers_and_sons/pdf/Norman_Swan.pdf
I would suggest you buy some credits for Scotland's People if you have not alreay done so. :)
Kirsty
edit: crossed posts!
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Link to other thread (which could be locked as it is empty!)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,430267.msg2948357.html#msg2948357
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Thanks Kirsty,
I contacted Norman Swan (who is a journalist with the Australian Broadcasting Corporation) in early December last year. He promised to contact his father, Leon, and there it stands. I expect Norman is a busy person.
Thanks also for the marriage pointer and the other possibility.
Also for the Swan article, which I had not seen, and which I read with interest.
Cheers
Geoff [who has actually spent quite a bit of time and money on Scotlandspeople.com :) ]
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Marriage record for Lena shows as 1923
1923 SWIRSKY SAMUEL and CROWN LENA at GORBALS GLASGOW/LANARK 644/17 0075
Also a death record
1966 SWIRSKY SAMUEL Male aged 64 at EASTWOOD AND MEARNS /RENFREW
1974 SWIRSKY LENA CROWN Female aged 75 GLASGOW GLASGOW/GLASGOW CITY
Also
1928 CROWN ETHEL BLOCH Female aged 58 HILLHEAD GLASGOW CITY/LANARK
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Thanks Sancti, that's filled in some gaps for me!.
Geoff
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Hello Geoff,
What records do you have that indicate the countries of origin of these two families?
Justin
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I have my mother's Australian birth certificate and the Naturalisation file from the Australian National Archives.
The Archives file, which unfortunately is a meagre 4 pages, has the 1916 Alien Registration forms for both Jessie and Philip.
Jessie comes fro Rakisky, in Russia [Russian Baltic States -- the Pale of Settlement], which is Rokiskis in modern Lithuania and Philip from Retabo (Retavo), which ispresent day Rietavas
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Hello Geoff,
I had just searched NAA and found that record too.
A huge number of ther Jewish vital records for both Rietavas and Rosiskis have survived and are online. The tricky thing is working out what the original surnames would have been.
Bloch is easy. Transcribed from Russian as Blokh, בלוך in Yiddish, the name means 'Romance speaker, i.e. Romanian.
Cohen is difficult. Known forms in Rietavas were Kaplan, Kagan, Kagane, Kats, Katz and Kac
Crown could have been Krojn/Kroin or perhaps Kran or something completely different. All are known Jewish names derived from the Yiddish word for 'crown'.
I shall keep looking to see what I find.
Do you know anything more about Phillip's parents, e.g. years of birth and death?
Justin
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That's exactly the kind of thing I want, Justin! Thanks!
Jesse was born on 11 Jan 1890 in Rakisky and died in Sydney, Australia on 25 August 1952.
Philip was born on 1 Jan 1884 [the date on his Alien Registration Form is wrong, information from his late son as well as the age on his marriage record support 1884]. He died in Sydney, Australia on 12 August 1933. My late mother [a Cohen] always said he was 49 when he died, which also supports 1884 as birth year. I have not seen a birth certificate and have no idea where the exact day came from -- I do not trust it.
Family oral tradition, by the way, has them born in Dvinsk (Daugavpils), Kovno (which actually is the province in which Rakisky sat), Memel (present day Klaipeda), Latvia and so on. I think I trust the Registration forms...
I'll look forward to seeing what you come up with Justin -- I did have a quick look at JewishGen and qualied at the enormous range of possibilities I found.
Geoff
BTW I paid to have the NAA record scanned and put up -- that's how the Archive funds its scanning program.
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Geoff,
Not much yet.
Both Phillip and Jessie were buried in the Rookwood cemetery. Philiip's gravestone bears his Hebrew name = Falk ben Yistchak ha-Kohen. That will prove very useful in tracking him down. Jessie's gravestone does not show her Hebrew name.
Etel and Etele Blokh both appear amongst the Rokiskis records. Etel/Etele being Yiddish nicknames for the Hebrew name Ester.
What makes you think that Phillip did not know his birthday when he filled in and signed the naturalisation application? Surely, information from his chidren must be regarded as a secondary source.
I have enlisted some more help, will report back as things develop.
Justin
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Justin: Thanks very much! That's pretty good for a start. I must admit that I have been using Amsterdam Cemetery (Muiderberg) records to research my father's side and had not yet thought of trying Rookwood (which is "only" 1000 km away, but presumably web accessible; Amsterdam is more like 12000) for Philip and Jessie.
There are three quite old surviving children of Philip (two aunts and an uncle) in Sydney and I will ask my cousins to talk to them if possible. This could take a while, but may yield extra information.
The birth date I trust came from my (now deceased) uncle, Bernard Solomon Cohen, who had an interest in these matters; he was born in Glasgow.
Why do I trust him more than Philip himself?
1. Philip's marriage record [Statutory Marriages 644/15 0043], which is for 11 January 1910 gives his age as 26. This would indicate a birth date on or after 11 January 1883 and before 11 Jan 1884.
2. Other information on Philip's 1916 Alien Registration Form (it is in his Naturalization file, but is not his certificate -- that WOULD be nice to have; but no one seems to have it) looks to be incorrect. He says on the Registration form that he came to Australia (the Commonwealth, but in those days that was the same thing) "about 1910". In fact Bernard was born in Glasgow on14 January 1912 to Jessie. This makes Jessie's statement that she arrived in Australia in 1911 wrong.
Also, assuming Philip was his son's father (which we have no reason to disbelieve), conception happened around April 1911. In Glasgow, unless these poor Jewish immigrants made very frequent intercontinental voyages! It's always possible that Bernard was the result of one last night of bliss before Philip sailed (assuming he came here before Jessie, which was common), but even that makes his arrival date wrong by a year or more.
The upshot of this is that I suspect Jessie and Philip did not take too much meticulous care in filling out their Alien Registration forms in 1916 -- but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
BTW Jessie's age at marriage is given as 19. This makes her birth year 1890/1891.
Cheers and thanks again!
Geoff
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Justin: Philip's birthday is given as 1 January 1884 in his burial record at Rookwood as well.
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But Jessie's is given as 10 Jan 1891 at Rookwood and her birthplace as Daugavpils (Dvinsk).
Herman's is given as Minsk. [at Rookwod]
I'm inclined to believe what they themselves wrote in 1916 -- the places they name are to small to just come arbitrarily to mind...
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Geoff,
Just a quick note before I head off to the airport.
The gravestone of Elizabeth Isaacs (nee Italiaander) reveals that her Hebrew name was Liba bat Shimon.
I think I have found a matching Simon Italiaander in various Amsterdam records. I shall give you full details when I have a bit more time.
Cheers, Justin
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Thanks for the information, Justin -- and have a good trip, wherever you are flying from or to!
I would be most grateful to see whatever you have from Amsterdam. However, I and others have already done considerable work on this side of the family
I have the Isaacs side back to Izaak Simons, born in Amsterdam sometime in the 18th century and his son Simon Isaacs who took the name Bollegraaf in 1812. The Bollegraaf family tree follows many of his children and their descendants -- sadly most lines end in the early 1940s in Auschwitz,
On the Italiaander side I have Elizabeth to Simon Italiaander and Esther de Metz and thence back several generations of both partners.
The genealogical resources for Jewish Amsterdam in the 17th and 18th centuries are truly remarkable (start with the databases on Akevoth, for example, or the site allegroningers.com) and the Bollegraaf and Italiaander families have done lots of work in the past. As it happens, I am reasonably fluent in Dutch and my wife is a native speaker -- so original primary sources present no insuperable problems.
However, as far as the Cohen side is concerned, I speak only minimal Russian and what litle Yiddish I ever had has long since been swamped first by rudimentary German and then by Dutch. On this side I need all the help I can get.
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Thanks for the information, Justin -- and have a good trip, wherever you are flying from or to!
I would be most grateful to see whatever you have from Amsterdam. However, I and others have already done considerable work on this side of the family
I have the Isaacs side back to Izaak Simons, born in Amsterdam sometime in the 18th century and his son Simon Isaacs who took the name Bollegraaf in 1812. The Bollegraaf family tree follows many of his children and their descendants -- sadly most lines end in the early 1940s in Auschwitz, Sobibor or similarly horrible places.
On the Italiaander side I have Elizabeth to Simon Italiaander and Esther de Metz and thence back several generations of both partners.
The genealogical resources for Jewish Amsterdam in the 17th and 18th centuries are truly remarkable (start with the databases on Akevoth, for example, or the site allegroningers.com) and the Bollegraaf and Italiaander families have done lots of work in the past. As it happens, I am reasonably fluent in Dutch and my wife is a native speaker -- so original primary sources present no insuperable problems.
However, as far as the Cohen side is concerned, I speak only minimal Russian and what litle Yiddish I ever had has long since been swamped first by rudimentary German and then by Dutch. On this side I need all the help I can get.
Thanks again and cheers
Geoff
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Geoff,
I work in NW England during the week and spend the weekends with wife and kids in Dublin.
None of your earlier postings made much mention of the Italiaander family, so I assumed that you had not progressed very well. How wrong I was. You have probably already looked at the 1851 census records and all the other fabulous records on the DutchJewry site, etc.
I shall concentrate on the Litvak Cohens and Crowns. Looking through the various databases again it appears that the 19th vital records for Rietavas may have been destroyed. There are, however, various tax and voter's lists from the right period, but they are unlikely to mention Phillip/Falk. I have noticed an Itsyk Kaplan (s/o Yankel) in 1890. I shall check the details again.
As for the Crowns. It may be wise to approach LitvakSIG directly.
Justin
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Thanks Justin.
Two questions:
Do you mean a Litvak SIG on Jewishgen?
What 1851 census is that? As I understand it in 1849 the Dutch started the population register (Bevolkingsregister, I assume)) and from then on ALL moves of ALL Dutch people have been tracked. However, access is a nightmare until about 1920, when indexes moved to a name or family rather than an address basis (see, for example, http://genealogy.about.com/library/authors/ucklaassen1d.htm. Have I missed something??
G
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Geoff,
Sorry, yes, I do mean JewishGen's LitvakSIG. Are you already a subscriber?
You should contact the shtetl or district coordinator. They should be able to provide a clear picture of the availability of records and funding for translation.
The census I referred to from memory is the Bevolkingsregister for 1851-53. Another one of the excellent databases on DucthJewry.
http://dutchjewry.org/databases/amsterdam_inhabitants/index.htm
What details do you have of Phillip's and Jessie's wedding?
Do you have any documentation (or gravestone pictures) that tell you Jessie's Hebrew/Yiddish name?
Justin
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Thanks Justin.
I will check that Amsterdam database. I did not know of it. Have not looked at it yet, but will let you know if anything comes of it.
There is a clear photo of Jessie's headstone on the Rookwood Cemetery web site, complete with a quite readable inscription in Hebrew.
It's many years since I have been anything like an observant (or any other kind o)f Jew.
However it looks to me as if the second third and fourth words on the top line (reading right to left, of course) are Jessie's Hebrew name. The second of these three words looks like "bat" to me (daughter of).
Perhaps someone else in this group with better Hebrew might take a look and transliterate it.
The URL is http://www.rookwoodjewishcemetery.com.au/detail.php?id=1013.
Philip and Jessie's marriage entry is available through Scotlandspeople.com [Statutory Marriages 644/15 0043]
It took place on 11/1/1910 at the Synagogue Cumberland Street Glasgow.
Philip's parents were Isaacs Cohen, Gardener, and Annie Cohen (MS Hertz).
Jessie's parents were Solomon Crown, Cabinetmaker (deceased -- in 1906 death record available) and Ethel Crown (MS Black -- should be Bloch).
Jessie died on 20/3/1928 and her death record reveals tat her parents were Isaac and Annie Bloch (no MS for Annie), both deceased.
Geoff
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Justin:
I just looked at that Amsterdam database.
I have been there before. There are no results for the people I am interested in (for example those called Italiaander), even though I know Italiaanders etc lived in Amsterdam at that time.
However I will keep fiddling till I resolve this paradox.
Geoff
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Geoff,
That's an excellent find. Her Hebrew name was Yehudit bat Shlomoh Dov.
Her father's double-name should make it easier to identify the family. However, he may have been Shlomoh Ber in Yiddish.
The name of Ethel's parents should prove useful too.
The search goes on ...
Justin
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Hello Geoff,
Brace yourself! I am fairly certain that I have found the family amongst the Litvak records.
The first census of the Russian Empire (28 Jan 1897) recorded this family in Komaiskaya Street.
KROK, Sholom Ber, Head of Household, 34 , , , Born and registered in Rokiskis. Joiner.In Kurland
KROK, Etel, Wife, 32 Born in Vilnius, registered in Rokiskis.
KROK, Chona Leiba, Son, 9 Born in Vilnius, registered in Rokiskis.
KROK, Stira Yudes, Daughter, 7 Born in Vilnius, registered in Rokiskis.
KROK, Libe Reishe, Daughter, 6 Born in Vilnius, registered in Rokiskis.
KROK, Baske, Daughter, 6 months Born in Vilnius, registered in Rokiskis.
The record also records that Etel was the daughter of an Itsek.
Sholom Ber is a Yiddish rendering of Shlomo Dov, Yudes is the Yiddish version if Yehudit and Baske (the Yiddish version of Bas Sheve) is commonly anglicised as Bessie.
Age and occupation match for Sholom Ber and, interestingly, he was actually in Kurland at the time of the census. There's the Dvinsk link. An earlier list of Box Taxpayers records him as a poor carpenter.
Krok was the Yiddish name for the shtetl of Kroki (קראָק) = Krakes in modern Lithuania.
A further record gives Stira Yudes Krok's b'day as 8 Nov 1889. ??
What do you think?
Justin
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That looks VERY promising, Justin!
Thank you VERY much...
We have the ages pretty much consistent for Solomon [1901 census means b ca 1865; death record b ca 1863; yours b ca 1863], Ethel [yours b ca 1863; death record b ca 1870 BUT based on age "ABOUT 58 years" in 1928], Jessie {yours b ca 1890; my records b 1890 or 1892].
My next step was to try to track down Bessie's death [family members say she died a spinster] There was no record for a Bessie Crown. However, there are 4 for an Elizabeth Crown at reasonably believable ages. The best match is
4 1987 CROWN ELIZABETH Not Permissible F 88 GLASGOW GLASGOW/GLASGOW CITY 619/00 0380 No Image ORDER [from Scotland's people]
If this IS Bessie then the implied birth year is 1898/1899.
I may well consider ordering the certificate....
On the matter of the Bevolkingsregister, I have re-visited it and remembered how to work it.
It is a re-indexing of that register BY NAMES for Jews in Amsterdam at that time (the original was BY ADRESSS, which makes it almost unsearchable). It gives me some addresses (after I get to the archives in Amsterdam to look at original docs) for some of the people I want. I have a visit there and to London planned for some time in the last quarter of this year...
I'll tink further on Jessie's family, Justin, but I believe you have done the job!
Thanks again
Geoff
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Hi Justin,
There are further checks that can be done:
According to the family there were four children (CHECK #1 passed!). They were Jessie, a brother (name unknown) [CHECK #2 passed!], Bessie, a spinster) and Lena, who married a Sam Swirsky (some of her details, including her death, are in earlier posts to this thread).
Lena died in 1974 aged 75. ie she was born around 1899, the same year range I get for my possible Bessie.
The birth years for Bessie and Lena do not gel with those for Libe and Baske. Baske is out by a couple of years at most.
But Libe was 6 in 1897 and that means she was born around 1891. This is 8 years out! [CHECK #3 doubtful]
What do you think??
Cheers
Geoff
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Geoff,
I would suggest that Lena and Libe Reisha were two different daughters. Lena born in 1899/1900, simply was not around for this 1897 census. Lena is also a common anglicisation for Leah.
Looking further back, I have identified Sholom Ber's father as Itsyk/Itsek Zelman Krok (b. c1848, d. 14 Jan 1886 Rokiskis), the son of Leyba Krok (b. c1800, d. 14 May 1885 Rokiskis), the son of Yankel Krok.
I have made further enquiries about some 18th century sources.
Justin
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Hi Justin,
Excellent work! I think we have an amazingly good match -- and an unlikely one given that only less than 6% of Jewish records for Kovno Province are extant.
I have backtracked a little of your research (just the Census) and see that Etel's father was also an Itzek. This corresponds well with "my" Ethel's death record which has her parents as Isaac Bloch and Annie Bloch (MS unknown).
I think your hypothesis that there was another daughter, Lena (who might well have been Leah), born after the census and thus that Libe Reishe, for whatever reason, did not make it to Scotland is a reasonably simple one.
I don't think that at present I have the knowledge of the relevant data sources or the Yiddish language skills to go further, so I am delighted to follow you.
For the benefit of me and of other following this thread (others? hello!) it would be good if you could give your sources and method as we go along.
Thanks again!
Geoff
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Hello Geoff,
I was going to switch to private correspondence by email, as do not think anyone else is 'tuning in'.
The other point aboutthis family that we must not overlook is the surname itself. Krok to Crown is not a huge transformation.
The only readily available data sources are via JewishGen. A huge abundance of information has been lovingly translated and amassed in the All Lithuania Database (ALD). There is seemingly more available, but I'll come to that later.
An important key to Jewish genealogy is knowing and understanding the numerous names an individual may have. In the case of your family, establishing that Jessie was Yehudit bat Shlomo Dov was the real breakthrough.
A knowledge of Yiddish names leads to the conclusion that she was likley to have been called Yudes daughter of Shlomo Ber - surname unknown. Dov is hebrew for 'bear', Ber is the Yiddish word. This is called a calque.
The next step was simply to interrogate the database with various combinations of the known data. As soon as I scrolled down a dataset and my eyes hit on the family of Sholom Ber Krok and his wife Etel, a daughter of Itsek, I knew I was on the right track. Sholom/Sholem/Shalom are all Yiddish nicknames for Shlomo.
Almost all the records provide the forename of an inviduals father and often the grandfather too. So, armed with the surname, the rest falls into place quite easily.
There are several descendents of this Krok family avidly researching their roots. It's time for some networking. I'll provide a list of groups that you might consider joining in a follow-uip posting.
All the best,
Justin
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Just so you know - when a thread has been viewed over 400 times there are others "tuning in" albeit silently. It's fascinating ;D
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What more encouragement do I need, Kirsty? Thank you.
However, I have suggested to Geoff that we may be reaching the limits of my access to records.
Turning our attention to the sadly-neglected Phillip Cohen for a moment, I can only see a very high and thick brickwall. The archives database at the Routes to Roots Foundation shows how few records have survived the passage of time, i.e. the Holocaust.
http://www.rtrfoundation.org/search.php
I am currently speculating that the original surname was Kaplan (which is derived from the Polish word for priest, i.e. a Cohen). Other possibilities are mentioned in this comprehensive article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohen). The article, however, fails to mention the additional problem that the Russian alphabet does not have the letter ‘h’. The ‘h’ sound in Yiddish and Hebrew (the letter hey ה) is generally rendered as a ‘g’. Hence, Kohen became Kogan or Kagan, Hirsh = Girsh, Herts = Gerts, etc. in Russian documents which inevitably form the core of available records.
The revision list (census) of 1870 for Rietavas does record the absent brothers Itsyk and Abram Kaplan, aged 18 and 17 respectively. Itsyk Kaplan = Yitschak ha-Kohen in Hebrew = Isaac Cohen in English. A good candidate for Phillip’s father, but without any additional supporting information, this remains but a theory. However, the limited records throw up no other candidates. Cohen is recognised as just about the most difficult surname to research in Jewish genealogy.
Phillip’s mother, Annie Herts, was most probably Chane Gerts/Gertz in Russian records. Her surname (and variants) are derived from the Middle High German word ‘Herz’ meaning ‘stag’ or perhaps more appropriately ‘hart’ (in modern standard German ‘Herz’ means ‘heart’), and is a Yiddish calque of the Hebrew name Tsvi, which is in turn an alias, a so-called kinui, for Naftali. The name association, as with several others, draws on Jacob’s blessings for his sons somewhere in Genesis; he likened his son Naftali to a stag. The surname was relatively unusual in this region of the Russian Pale and may suggest that her family had migrated eastwards in relatively recent times.
I have been unable to make any further progress on this side and would urge you to make contact with the Raseiniai District Research Group of Litvak SIG http://www.litvaksig.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=article&id=13&Itemid=10
The Bloch family is proving a bit elusive too. As was the case with Rietavas, few records from the Jewish community of Vilnius appear to have survived. I would seek guidance from Litvak SIG (www.litvaksig.org (http://www.litvaksig.org))
Justin
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Hello all!
Justin and I have been communicating, but the essence of our discussion is in his previous post.
After that it has been my sending corrections to the version he has of my twig of the Bollegraaf family tree: the one where the line becomes Izak and is no longer Bollegraaf. It leads to Herman Izak/Isaacs and Elizabeth Italiaander and I believe I have commented about that elsewhere, previously, on Rootschat.
I would, however, like to throw one small stone into the discussion pool and, if there are ripples then perhaps the moderator will move this to a new thread. It is a point I have already raised off line with Justin.
My interest in my family's history -- and it is in just that, not in genealogy generally -- is in who they were, and the least of that is their names (unless thjey too tell me something): I already know that, barring some kind of bizarre miracle, I had a great great great great grandfather and ---grandmother. That their names might be Fred and Mabel is in many ways beside the point. What I want to know is their occupations, their places (of residence etc), their children, where they moved and why (including the relevant historical context).
Once it gets to the stage where all I am doing is putting labels called names to slots called people, I lose interest.
This has not happened yet with the Crowns/Kroks and the Cohens/??? When it does, that will be when I stop -- at least until I notice that someone, somewhere may have found a chink in a brick wall.
What do others think? Are names enough? Why do you do what you do?
Geoff
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I never just want names and dates. They are the start point for filling out the tree.
You always have to have things in historical perspective in order to begin to understand what life would have been like for them, geography also plays a huge part.
I want to know about the people in the family, where they lived, what they did, where they travelled. To that end I have already had several journeys around visiting the old houses where possible, and am even in contact with decendants of their friends and neighbours through rootschat!
Kirsty
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Some activity continues on off line -- Justin is in contact with the Krok family and trying to go further back, as am I using jewishgen resources.
However I am also looking closer in time and have tracked them rather easily in Australia. I am now trying to fill a gap by tracking Jessie and Philip and their two children on their journey(s) to Australia.
The family thought Jessie and young Hannah and Bernard had come separately from Philip. That appears to be the case.
I have found Jessie and the children (using the resources on findmypast). They sailed for Sydney on 22 August 1912 on the Shaw Saville line ship Pakeha, which was bound ultimately for New Zealand. It now seems only a matter of time until I track them down arriving in Sydney (though someone who lives there may need to do a hand search).
However, Philip (Phillip -- both spellings crop up here and there) seems more difficult. Findmypast has no record of him traveling to Australia from anywhere in Britain as a passenger. Neither does he appear as a crew member -- but their lists there apparently are seriously incomplete (as a personal example, I know on exactly which voyage of which ship my other grandfather came from London to Australia as a crew member -- I have the crew list -- but findmypast does not seem to have him).
So, any suggestions on how to proceed??
Geoff
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Geoff - I stumbled across this thread looking into Rietavas, whence my family emanate. It is pretty well documented by a family genealogist but as far as I know we know little about the first wife of my paternal great grandfather, Borukh Shapiro. She is shown on the tree as Ita Bloch (or Kolnick - possibly that is nee Kolnick). I mention it as you seem also to have hit something of a Bloch dead end.
Marcus
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Thanks shapm4.
In fact in the last many months I have made no more progress.
In particular, while I have contacted descendants of Jessie's parents, they are in such ill health that they have been to date unable to comment on the Krok--Crown hypothesis so well established by Justin.
I live in hope, but due to health issues of my own (soon to be resolved, I hope) have not pursued the Kroks any further.
Cheers
Geoff
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Sorry shapm4, I was so focussed on the Krok side that I neglected to notice you were talking about the Blochs.
However, in fact for health reasons I have been off this stuff for six months or more and hope to get back to it soon.
As I recall it, one of the Bloch problems is that it is/was a fairly common name in various variants in Eastern Europe.
Hopefully when I am once more immersed in this research and have my own data more fully at my mental fingertips I will come back to your contribution and respond more cogently.
Cheers
Geoff
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Well Geoff - best wishes on the health side and if we can compare notes on Blochs from Rietavas down the track, do get back in touch.
Marcus
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Here we are in 2017, about 7 years on, and I gave finally gotten around to joining the Litvak SIG of JewishGen.org.
Sadly, there in the All Lithuanian Database I found voter registration records for Sholom Berko Krok, his wife, Etel and daughters Stira Yudes and Libe Raykha -- as well as his 77 year old mother, Chava. They are dated 1908! This seems to put an end to Justin's Krok hypothesis.
I enjoyed having it for 7 years or so. And NOW I find that at least one of my 3 --4th DNA "cousins" has Kroks in his family tree. However, Krok (present day Krakes) is a village in the right area and it is possible that its inhabitants took Krok as a surname for use outside the village.
Cheers,
Geoff