RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Glamorganshire => Wales => Glamorganshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: marinerclark on Tuesday 26 January 10 22:04 GMT (UK)
-
Hello I was searching for Thomas Thomas about 13 because I realized he was missing from his parents household when I found them earlier. I was reading it page by page on anc*** and the same place names kept being repeated. I thought these were house or farm names but now am wondering if they were street or rows and the census taker was zig zaging. Does this make sense? Tne only one I remember was Tir Penney.
My 12 year old Thomas was with Phillip Richard and family with a few other ag labs at Pont Pren. His parents were also at Pont Pren with the Rogers family but 20 pages apart Young Thomas was on page 1 and there was no previous page on the images.
Would really like to better understand the locations in Clase. Thank you for any help LizR
-
Hi
I am at a lost to what you are saying. Have you found Thomas on 1841 census?
When you say you found him with his parents when was that?
cheers cardiff ???
-
Sorry I have found Thomas Jr. and Thomas Sr. My question is about the enumerators route. Place names keep being repeated so I am thinking that he is going along say Llangyfelach Rd and then doing a household on a side street like Tir Penney and then back to Llangyfelach main road and back to a side street but without a map from way back I don't know how the street and or farms were arranged.
I am also looking for a leasehold called Caeradog. Margaret Davies lived here in 1851. It is the same leasehold that Morgan Grey, Margaret's grandfather left to her father Evan Grey in 1818. 3 lives lease and then it ends??
Have found the other places that people lived on a modern map at least as a street name.
Thank you so much for taking the trouble to reply. I am trying hard to communicate clearly. LizR
-
I think it might be Tir Penry rather than Tir Penney but I stand to be corrected without seeing the census page or a map.
Bernard
-
If you're using Ancestry, click on district no. above the census return screen & then on view description of enumeration district, and there should be a description of the walk.
-
Thank you osprey Really good to know
That was from memory.but many place names repeated so cant be house names. Thanks for reply. The old maps version of Llangyfelach Parish is not very clear. Would love a map before the A48 and all the farms were still there. john Davies was suposed to have a forge at the Plough and harrow. Thank you both for your replies LizR
-
Hi,
Are you sure young Thomas is at an address called pont pren? I've looked at the images. Thomas is at an address with the Phillip Richard family that reads as penyfedw to me ( Peny-Y-fedw) . Some of the other addresses next to your family are Ty canol, Bwllfa to name just a couple
They are not house names but area names within the then hamlet of Clase.
Most of those places , addresses are still there today , they are under Ynystawe
Hope that helps
Kind Regards
-
Thank you so much. That's what I thought but hated to assume. Have several Family that say they are from Penygors in the 1840's but they weren't farmers so couldn't be a farm and they were too many to be one house. Thanks for clarification on Thomas Thomas residence. LizR
-
Hi,
Ps
I forgot to say that Bwllfa (which is one of the addresses on the images) - is classed as Clase higher on some of the 1800's censuses, it's ecclesiastical district is Clydach st Johns.
Some of my hubbies family lived in Bwllfa in the Millers arms - If you google "Millers Arms" Ynystawe . The old pub is still there today on Clydach road -ie part of what we know as Clydach road today was in the Bwllfa area in the 1800's).
For an old map of the areas on that census image:
Go to old maps and put Ynystawe in the search box , it will then give you one option in the drop down box "Ynystawe Glamorgan" click that . In the search results you will have three images - click on number 3 image the 1900 Glamorganshire map ( the 1900 gives you clear detail unlike than the earlier ones ) , it will show you the areas that you are intrested in - Bwllfa is in the middle http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html
On the far left of the map is Pen-rhiwgwysfa ( another one of Thomas's neighbours on the census image that I noticed
Kind regards:)
-
Ynystawe is the missing word. Thank you so much. LizR
-
Hello, This is the first time I have been into this site and am not sure how it works, I am not even really sure where I am or who will get this message. I am related to John Davies and Margaret Grey. Not sure if we can be of any help to each other as not sure if you are researching these two or Thomas Thomas. Can you get back in touch with me. Regards Ellen
-
Dear Ellen I am John Davies (~1786- 1851) and Margaret Grey's (1791- past 1851) 3 greats granddaughter by their son John Davies. John Davies married Eleanor Thomas at Llangyfelach Parish Church in 1844-this is my connection to the Thomases. Eleanor was the daughter of Thomas Thomas a butcher and Jemima(either Harris or Griffith).
Margaret Grey's line is growing nicely but I have nothing on John Davies Sr. except he is supposed to be buried at Mynydd-Bach Chapel. Can't find a will for him. Have wills for Margaret's grandfather and brother and an admin for her father.
Tell me how you are connected and where you are located. You must have 3 posts on Rootschat to use the personal message system. It is a great site. I am on the west coast of US just south of Seattle. My Welsh mother emigrated in 1953. Just reply here Very happy to have found another cousin LizR
-
Hi, thanks for the reply. Just found my way back on. I am John Davies and Margaret Grey''s 4th Great Granddaughter, However I am stumped already as I don't have a son John Davies by John and Margaret. I have ten children but no John. My link is with William who had a son john Davies born 1837. I guess if am either on the wrong track or I missed a son. Can you tell me what children you have for your John and Margaret.
John Was a Wheelright and lived in Penygorse.
I am actually in Australia. My Welsh Father immigrated in 1956.
Regards Ellen
-
John had left home by 1841 census as had William. He was a single man so hard to spot in the sea of John Davies.
Marriage certificate August 26 1844 has John, a smith of Penygors, marrying Eleanor Thomas at Llangyfelach Parish and father of John is John Davies of Penygors. a carpenter.
In the 1851 census John and Eleanor have moved to Merthyr Tydvil to work at the iron works. Staying with them are 2 visitors Thomas Thomas 22, and Morgan Davies 23 a wheelwright. Tracing Morgan Davies back to age 13 in 1841 is how I found the family in Llangyfelach.
John and Margaret Grey married 1 Feb 1811 so lots of children missing. William seems to be the oldest. My John's est. birthdate is 1822. Can't find my list of kids right now but I 've only added William, John and possilbly Richard. He is listed on the Jeremiah tree as marrying Sarah Jeremiah in 1837 at Llangyfelach. The record says he was from Penygors
Have you found the free willls online at the National Library of Wales especially Evan Grey 1842, Morgan Grey 1818 and Morgan Grey 1843 No Davies that I can tie in to Tree. Do you have a death date for John or Margaret?
Langyfelach Parish register is on freereg. Davies family used Mynydd Bach. have made contact with another descendent of William Davies on Curious Fox I have lots more When you have 3 posts we can use the PM system LizR
-
Well that probably explains why John Davies did not have a son John Davies. I was wondering as every other family has a child the same as the father. You will have to excuse me as i am not the best at this. I am using ancestry and once I get out of the time range, am a bit lost. I do have a copy of the will for Evan Grey passing his goods etc to Margaret Gray (Davies). I was happy when I found that because it is the only thing I have which links Margaret to John Davies. This will is signed by John Davies, John Rees (Parish Clerk) and Thomas Thomas (butcher). You may also have been told that Evan Grey is related to the Osmond Family. I told my daughter this and her reply was, which one Ozzie or Sharon.
On the 1841 census for John and Margaret (Grey) Davies, Penygorse, you will also find John Rees the Clerk and my 3rd GGF William Davies who is also a wheelright. William lived at Pentwyn with his wife Mary. William was married twice but Mary is the one who is my anscestor. Thank you for the marriage date for John and Margaret. Do you have a certiicate? I don't have a death date for John or Margaret. Actually I have just recently come back to this side of the family, have been in Scotland with my Mother's side.
Anyway, it does seem that we are connected in some way. Will be interesting to work it out. I am also interested in your contact with William Davies but I will bet it is someone from his 2nd marriage to Jane. regards Ellen
-
Pentwyn is still there but Penygors has been replaced.
No marriage cert because it was before civil registration in 1837. Just the Parish Register I have the transcription which is typed copy but not the original which would only add witnesses.
It's Donny and Marie Osmond. Evan Grey's sister Mary Grey married Timothy Martin in 1795. Timothy was a mining engineer from England who moved to Merthyr and opened the Penydarren pit. His son George was foreman at Dowlais Iron Works which is why I think John and Eleanor moved to Merthyr. So Osmonds come from the Martins.
Check out Morgan Grey 1818 will The sister Margaret is our Margaret Davies. and her brother Morgan's will in 1843 has your William Davies as co-executor Morgan 1843 talks about his mothers estate but I can find nothing on that. She was Mary John alive in the 1841 census. They married 29 Oct 1785 I believe there was only one Evan Grey and his first wife died but I may be wrong.
Have you used the Cambrian Index? Swansea Archive newspaper index?? My tree is on line at Ancestry called marie olsen You should also look for wendyfisher45 Have the Greys back to 1649. Try freereg LizR
-
ok, you are way ahead of me. I only had Margaret Grey as John's wife and I thought that Evan was the Dad. To make sure, I found the will (don't ask me how just appeared one day on Google) leaving everything to Margaret his daughter and wife of JD. This is really as far as I have gone. I have no sisters or bothers for Margaret Grey, but from your information, she had a brother Evan born 1818. I do have Mary and Evan in the 1841 census who I thought were the mum and Dad but had put them on the tree with a question mark. I am loving all this information, but not sure whether I am going to be any help to you. I have seen your tree on Ancestry, would it be easier if I got in touch with you through them.
-
We have 3 solid generations Margaret Grey 3 Nov 1791 dau of Evan Grey 1761-1842 son of Morgan Grey and Hannah David. Free reg has Hannah Grey dying in 1789.
The 2nd Morgan Grey on the Will index 1843 is Evan Grey's son Morgan, brother to Margaret. I think he must have been sick when his father Evan was dying. So Evan had no will and Margaret applied for the Admin job. Morgan the grandfather had a leasehold called Caeradog that he left to Evan. and that is where Margaret was living in the 1851 census. Welsh property had something called a three lives lease. I found reference to them on the Swansea archives website
The Osmond site gives Morgan Grey 1730-1818 children In the will there are no married names. Evan had a brother Morgan who died in 1786.
I tried free reg to get beyond Mark Grey. Morgan 1730 and siblings are all in the Llangyfelach parish reg but no mothers are listed. Mark is in the burials in 1759 but no baptism. If you google Mark Grey you get a book about the copper mining around Swansea. He is listed.
Mary and Evan only seem to have 2 children who made it to adulthood. Morgan Grey 1843 had no children who lived so Margaret's kids got his estate. We can use the personnal message system on Rootschat now that you have 3 posts. Then I can send you a picture of Pentwin. LizR
-
Have managed to find the other two wills. Am having a bit of trouble reading them at the moment so will have to get them on to the system so I can enlarge and see if I can work out the grandchildren etc. Can you tell me what you mean by free reg.
Thomas Grey and Alice are on ancestry as parents for Mark Grey. You may be able to find a way of confirming that.
Did you find William, John and his Grandad John Davies on the 1841 census. Have not found anybody on Ancestry yet who is researching this family, so it is good to find a cousin. My (how many Greats) Grandfather William will be your (?Number of Greats) uncle.
-
Free Reg is a website where volunteers have indexed parish registers. There are two search boxes county for us Glamorgan and parishes Llangyfelach.
Then you can select name, dates and marriage, baptism or burial and search for Greys for a certain decade or year. Not all parishes have been done. I am wondering if Llangyfelach goes back to Mark Grey's baptism. because I don't find it.
Morgan Grey's will 1818 I can't find Lott - a marriage or baptism that works . May be out of parish Can't figure out what had the silver buttons a lilac or silac must be a vest of some kind
Yes I have found them in the 1841 census also Richard Davies with wife Sarah, son Evan(named for his grandfather ,Margaret's father??) Richard is also a wheelwright. Margaret is head of household in 1851 with the niece and nephew Williams (don't know who they are.) and a few children.
Have sent an email off to the other cousin who is also descended from William but haven't received an answer yet. The tree on Anc. is called wendyfisher42. He starts with us back at Mark Grey. Great to have a cousin to share and work with. LizR
-
FreeReg is part of the FreeBmd family. You can access it from the FreeBmd home page, also FreeCen
http://www.freereg.org.uk/
It's not complete, but you can click on the county pages to see coverage
http://www.freereg.org.uk/parishes/index.shtml
-
ok thanks for that. I have spent a good part of the day going in and out of Free Regs without much success. I will try these. Getting back to the wills - Morgan Grey uncle of my William and your John. Would his birth date have been 1791 the same as Margaret's. There is a census for 1841 with a Morgan aged 50 and Mary at Maeseglwys ?? which looks like the same place on his will.
-
Sorry, I just realised you are not LizR. Thanks anyway for the information. I have been a bit frustrated today trying to get into one of these sites and find something, anything but have not been very successful. Was going to give up but will now have another try with your information and hopefully will be very happy. Thaks again. Ellenby
-
Thanks Osprey I haven't used it in a while. sorry Ellenby I will try to be more precise. I had forgotten the bigger site. Worked on the Edward Martin family because he married Martha Lott Hoped I could tie in to our Lott grandchildren no connection found yet. LizR
-
Can you tell me if there is any way I can have a look at the original Document or order a copy of one of the marriage entries in freereg. Thanks.
-
Archives don't normally let you see the original parish registers. Usually they have been filmed and are on microfiche or film. Whichever archive holds them will normally provide copies. Give as much info as possible - event, names, date & parish - in this case to the archives in Swansea
http://www.swansea.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=20343
-
Thank you. You are very helpful.
-
:D
-
Hi Liz, can you contact me through the pm system. Not sure how to use it. Looking forward to the photo of Pentwyn that you have. Also hoping you can help me decipher some of these wills. Ellen
-
Hello I was searching for Thomas Thomas about 13 because I realized he was missing from his parents household when I found them earlier. I was reading it page by page on anc*** and the same place names kept being repeated. I thought these were house or farm names but now am wondering if they were street or rows and the census taker was zig zaging. Does this make sense? Tne only one I remember was Tir Penney.
My 12 year old Thomas was with Phillip Richard and family with a few other ag labs at Pont Pren. His parents were also at Pont Pren with the Rogers family but 20 pages apart Young Thomas was on page 1 and there was no previous page on the images.
Would really like to better understand the locations in Clase. Thank you for any help LizR
Hi Liz, by coincidence, I've been researching ancestors in Clase too (assuming it's the same Clase, near Swansea, Wales!). I was born and brought up in the area. I've also recently discovered online (scalable, interactive) maps of the area from about 1850 onwards:http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=51.6525&lon=-3.9362&layers=6&b=7 (http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=51.6525&lon=-3.9362&layers=6&b=7)
I'm not sure whether you're aware of this so I'll include this information:
The registration districht 'Clase' was abolished 1894 to become the separate parishes of Clase Urban and Clase Rural.
- Clase Rural
Created 1894 from the rural part of the parish of Clase. Abolished 9.11.1918 to become parts of the parishes of Swansea and Llangyfelach.
- Clase Urban
Abolished 26.3.1900 to become part of the parish of Swansea.
If I can help, let me know.
-
Dear Ellen I am John Davies (~1786- 1851) and Margaret Grey's (1791- past 1851) 3 greats granddaughter by their son John Davies. John Davies married Eleanor Thomas at Llangyfelach Parish Church in 1844-this is my connection to the Thomases. Eleanor was the daughter of Thomas Thomas a butcher and Jemima(either Harris or Griffith).
Margaret Grey's line is growing nicely but I have nothing on John Davies Sr. except he is supposed to be buried at Mynydd-Bach Chapel. Can't find a will for him. Have wills for Margaret's grandfather and brother and an admin for her father.
Tell me how you are connected and where you are located. You must have 3 posts on Rootschat to use the personal message system. It is a great site. I am on the west coast of US just south of Seattle. My Welsh mother emigrated in 1953. Just reply here Very happy to have found another cousin LizR
Liz,
The above quote is from Reply number 11 of 11 May 2010! I was intrigued with your .. .. supposed to be buried .. .. .. so I have looked at the copy of the Mynyddbach Chapel Burial Register and whilst there are 23 John's, 2 John's plus a second name, and a Johnny and a Jonathan, none of them were buried during the year 1851. Have I read the reply correctly?
Whilst I was at it I also looked at a copy of the Llangyfelach Parish Church (St. David & St. Cyfelach) and couldn't find a matching burial therein either. I've read through the subsequent posts and (unless I'm missing something) I can't see anything to suggest you might have resolved your earlier observation.
If I have missed anything significant please point me in an appropriate direction and I'll see if I can discover anything else.
As I live in the village of Llangyfelach, now a suburb of Swansea, I like to do my bit!
JohnG_Swansea.
-
Mynyddbach Chapel has four burial grounds see here (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6624152,-3.9545643,227m/data=!3m1!1e3), BG1 is up tight to the chapel NW wall, southwest wall and the front (southeast) wall, BG2 is to the south west of the chapel drive, BG3 is uptight to BG2 alongside the public approach road, whilst BG4 is immediately across the lane from BG3. If your version of Google maps has the “yellow, Street View icon” you can see the current state of burial grounds 2, 3 & 4.
There are a number of burials for the early years of the 1800’s which for whatever reason are not included in the published list of burials, albeit the published list is just short of 5k entries. So I have walked amongst those graves with upright headstones in burial ground 2 and think I might have found a headstone that might be of interest to at least two of you.
Needless to say I have taken photographs of the headstone in question and have sent you both personal messages which you will need to respond to, to enable me to send these images to you both.
Regards, JohnG_Swansea.
-
Thank you. I sent you a pm with my email address. John is listed on the 1841 census but Margaret is a widow in 1851. I havent found Margaret in 1861 but she could have moved in with family. Looking forward to seeing grave stone LizR
-
Hi Ellen Are you still researching Grey/Davies. Have found some great info. LizR
-
JohnG_Swansea, Still over the moon to have that grave found. How do you get a copy of the burials at Mynydd Bach? I have seen online there is a gap for Baptisms in the 1780's just when I need one. Margaret was christened at the Parish church. Thanks so much for your help. LizR
-
JohnG_Swansea, Still over the moon to have that grave found. How do you get a copy of the burials at Mynydd Bach? I have seen online there is a gap for Baptisms in the 1780's just when I need one. Margaret was christened at the Parish church. Thanks so much for your help. LizR
The chapel registers have been lodged with the West Glamorgan Archive Service (http://West Glamorgan Archive Service) (WGA), at their Swansea office. Someone or some organisation has transcribed the Burial Register into an electronic format [just under 5k entries] which can be inspected in the WGA office.
The earliest entries I can recall seeing are in the 1870's, at this point in time I have no knowledge if any earlier records exist, but as of this coming Tuesday I shall make enquiries of WGA. WGA is closed to the public on Monday's.
There is a short history of the chapel on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mynyddbach_Chapel) and an aerial view here (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Swansea+SA5+7HT/@51.6624021,-3.9541176,358m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x486ef5a136453e99:0x2f8c2c34bf4b37ca!8m2!3d51.6629455!4d-3.9541803). I'm uncertain what, if anything, the ground behind (northwest) of the chapel might have been used for, but next time I see any of the chapel officers I shall enquire further. I hope to have some answers within the next 7~10 days.
JohnG_Swansea.
-
Liz,
Today I phoned West Glamorgan Archives, after explaining the background to the enquiry they called me back saying that the original Mynyddbach Chapel Burial Register covering the years 1688~1792 was available for inspection at the National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth, some 70 road miles from here with a calculated journey time of 1h48 and that presupposes that the maximum permitted speed can be maintained for the whole journey, somewhat unlikely in this day & age!
Then there was an unusually long pause.
Followed by: "but we have a copy here in Swansea, would that be of any interest to you?"
To which I replied "Yes Please" there was then some small talk about the missing 84 years (1792~1876).
Anyway, if you can send me details of the ancestors you are looking for, either here or by PM, I can make arrangements to visit their office and see what I can discover, but be aware I cannot commit myself to any time scale, it will be a case of when a sufficient window of time becomes available.
JohnG_Swansea
-
That is very kind. Because of the Davies name I havent got any for sure knowledge of their kids death dates and if they buried babies it would be during the gap. 1812 to 1845 would be Margaret Davies childbearing years. I will see who I can find after 1876. My John moved to Cardiff by the 1881 census so he is out . Will work on this Thanks again. LizR
-
This made me smile John:
"some 70 road miles from here with a calculated journey time of 1h48 and that presupposes that the maximum permitted speed can be maintained for the whole journey".
I need to drive 98.798 miles (converted from KM), 1h 45 mins to get groceries. ;D
Jamjar
-
Heloo John, After digging on the internet I found Richard Davies, Carpenter and wheelwright
Death Dec 1898 living in LANDORE 1891
Wife Sarah, died btween 1851 and 1856
2nd wife Ann.
Be interesting to know if kids stayed with Mynydd Bach. I have never found any baptisms that matched up with the 1841 census names, Other sibling are Evan born abt 1820, William born abt 1812 wife Jane, Also Morgan born abt 1828. Thank you for your help. If this is too general let me know what to search for. LizR