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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Wiltshire => Topic started by: RPCW on Sunday 31 January 10 14:09 GMT (UK)
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Hello, I would like to know more about the Chandler family from Devizes. Thomas Chandler, born about 1837 was a Malstster. I think he was my great grandfather. Does any one know anything about his daughter, Mary Octavia? Cheers, and thanks...
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welcome!
before jumping in to look further, do you have them on any census ?
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Sorry, I meant Maltster. Yes they are on the 1881 census.
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OK, seen the 1881.
Cant see them yet in 1871 - altho there is an older Thomas, also Maltster (retired) from the same Birthplace as your man - Chirton.
In 1861 there are no children with your man and wife Elizabeth (nee Tanner), and he's showing born c1827 (actually the same as the 1881 census). The unmarried Sister In Law staying with them provided the maiden name clue and leads to this marriage:- (it fits with her birth place shown in the census I have looked at)
Marriages Dec 1859
Chandler Thomas Tetbury 6a 597
Little Anne Tetbury 6a 597
Lovelock John Tetbury 6a 597
Tanner Elizabeth Tetbury 6a 597
In 1861, they are here:- RG9; Piece: 1293; Folio: 159; Page: 13 Devizes, Melbourne Villa
What do you want to do ?
Added: They are in the same place in 1871 (he's employing 30 men) - but the name is transcribed as Chamber.
RG10; Piece: 1915; Folio: 71; Page: 6
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You asked about Mary Octavia:
Marriages Jun 1897
Chandler Mary Octavia Devizes 5a 205
Wheeler Robert Drew Devizes 5a 205
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jumping back to the 1851 census, he is a Maltster in Potterne, unmarried as yet, with 3 servants working for him.
HO107; Piece: 1839; Folio: 425; Page: 47
All these References can be expanded fully to transcribe the names present.
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That's all great.. thanks.. I need to have a cup of tea now and think about this! Robert Drew Wheeler was my grandfather.
The thing is, Mary Octavia died while visiting Austia. In July 1912. My father, her son, was only four at the time, and I think the full circumstances of Mary Octavia's death were kept from him.
That is what I would like to know more about really, as well as her backgroud.
Thanks for your replies....
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have added to my earlier post.
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Thanks, I am new to this site. Should I actually be posting somewhere else? For examle on a Wiltshire page of a Chandler family page? I am not sure how to do this....
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Fine so far, altho you could put a specific query about Mary O's death in ? Austria / Australia ? in a relevant Forum I guess - browse thru the list on the 'Forum' link above (the buttons with green leaves)
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Hi RPCW
We spoke in the chatroom yesterday about Mary Octavia.
Just a thought. Have you looked at the local papers at the time Mary's death was reported? I think her home was in Bucks at the time of her death?
Barbara
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Thanks again... yes, Austria actually...forgive my spelling..
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Yes, she and two kids were in the Wycombe District of Bucks in the 1911 census.
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Hello again Barbara... Yes I will try local papers for High Wycombe... but do you think I will have to go there ( from West Wales ) or do you think it could be done online?
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By the way, I have ordered a copy of her will or Administration Papers if they can be found...
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You might find a Death entry in the Consular Deaths Index, and be able to order a Certificate.
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/OverseasStartSearchServlet?searchType=D&group=DEATHS
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Hi again
I think the first thing to do is to check where the papers are held. Then see what look up facilities are offered. As you have a definite date for her death that narrows down the search.
Or you could post the Times Death announcement here and ask if anyone can help with a look up in the local paper. Probably best to do that on the Bucks board....but link the request to this one so that people know the background.
Barbara
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Have a look at this link.
http://www.buckscc.gov.uk/sites/bcc/libraries/Branches/wycombe_study.page
They have Bucks Free Press on microfilm from 1856 :)
Barbara
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many thanks.. I will contact them.. :)
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Hi RPCW
I've got copies of the microfiche for Chirton parish records and it looks like your Thomas was the son of Thomas and Rebecca Chandler. Thomas the elder was also a maltster. The entry reads
Bap July 10th, Rec'd Oct 18th 1826 - Thomas son of Thomas & Rebeccas Chandler of Chirton, Maltster.
If you'd like me to see if there are siblings baptisms etc in the registers please do say
Regards
Angela
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Great, Thanks so much. Yes it seems they were all Maltsters. It seems a Danial Chandler leased the Church Mill in Chirton in 1798.
In 1848 Charles Chandler coverted the mill to steam.
Mary Octavia Married Robert Drew Wheeler and the Wheelers were Brewers, so I guess malt and brewing went together.
Can we trace Thomas back to Danial? I suppose Danial was his father? And Charles?...
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I'll have a look through and post back. If there's loads, I'll send you a PM ;D
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Can we trace Thomas back to Danial? I suppose Danial was his father? And Charles?...
I was laying out the groundwork for this earlier, when you then said you (effectively) wanted to focus on Mary O ::)
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If you look at the FamilySearch site at the IGI, you'll find the Chirton records fairly thoroughly covered, although not the deaths of course. It does give Daniel as father of Thomas. Do you have access to the census records that Mort29 found for you, or do you need a transcription? It's a definite pity that Chirton is one of the places for which the 1841 census didn't survive ::)
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Mort, thanks, you are quite right...
The circumstances of Mary Octavia's death are my main interest. Just picking up a bit more on her background along the way.
Because her son, my father, was only four when she died, I think a lot of information was rather shrouded in mystery.
Perhaps some Chandler descendants may have some passed on memories. Of course it was all very tragic....
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:) AngelaR and Mort29.. I am not that good at accessing anything... seeems I have not started ascending the learning curve yet! Any help or info gratefully received... :)
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Do you have access to the census records that Mort29 found for you, or do you need a transcription?
as i said at the time, quite happy to transcribe and flesh out. :)
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Well, if your sure you don't mind.. I would certainly enjoy reading it.. these are long lost ancestors for me... it feels like a missing link is joining up a bit.... thanks a lot..
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No problem, but I have only just seen this post, so apologies, it will be tomorrow now. Maybe AngelaR will still be around, so I will check in the morning.
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I'm dashing off too, so am abandoning you as well. I'll be back later on tomorrow and can pick up then
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Mort29 and AngelaR.. Thank you both.. :) cheers
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1871 RG10; Piece: 1915; Folio: 71; Page: 6 Devizes, St James, Melbourne Villa
Thomas Chandler 44 Head of Household born Wilts, Chirton: Maltster employing 30 men
Elizabeth Chandler 39 Wife born Gloucestershire, Shipton Moyle
Thomas Geo Chandler 8 son Devizes
Alfred Biggs Chandler 5 son ditto
Sarah Kate Chandler 2 daughter ditto
Robert John Chandler 9 months son ditto
William Mawer 36 Visitor born Lincs, Waddingtoin: Commercial Traveller
Martha Mawer 42 ditto Wife of above born Pembroke
Hannah Barry Servant Monthly Nurse
Jane Cooper 31 Servant
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Is this the previous generation, or did Thomas stay in Chirton with a Malting business ? Altho I note that a Rebecca was mentioned earlier as Thos jnr's mother. Maybe Thos Snr remarried?
Added: From the IGI, it looks like this Thomas was the son of Daniel and Elizabeth.
1861 RG9; Piece: 1293; Folio: 157; Page: 10 Devizes St Jame: Dwelling House allied to Malting premises.
Thomas Chandler 73 Head of House born Wilts, CHIRTON: Maltster
Sarah Chandler 67 Wife born Devizes
John Chandler++ 43 son born CHIRTON: Maltster
Matilda A Hale 7 Servant
In the Malthouse:-
All noted as 'Workman' / 'Maltman' but only Wilts shown as Place of Birth
Joseph Drew 26
George Hale 23
Elisha Hale 25
Charles Mower 28
George Miles 39
Enoch Clements 30
William Giddings 36
James Drew 24
James Hibberd 29
John Oram 25
William North 58
++ This man John Chandler is living with Cousins, Charles & Ann Williams in Stepney, MEOT in 1851. He is showing 'Maltster' occupation, but his pob is a bit scrambled.
HO107; Piece: 1553; Folio: 38; Page: 21
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Thos Snr married:-
REBECCA BIGGS
on 01 APRIL 1812 in Chippenham, Wiltshire
explains the middle name of the 2nd son seen in 1871 ....
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This is defn. the earlier generation:-
1851 HO107; Piece: 1839; Folio: 616; Page: 6 Devizes St James - Bath Road
Thomas Chandler 63 Head of Household born Chirton: Retired Maltster
Rebecca Chandler 62 Wife born Potterne
Mary Godwin 24 Servant
John Godwin 22 Servant
James Smith 18 Servant
and possibly Rebeccas death date?
Deaths Jun 1851
Chandler Rebecca Devizes 8 244
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Mort! Thank you so much for all that. I will need to digest it a while... Its very interesting... Thank you..
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Thomas seemed to favour Chippenham for his marriages!
Marriages Dec 1852
BAKER Elizabeth Chippenham 5a 92
BERRETT Sarah Chippenham 5a 92
Chandler Thomas Chippenham 5a 92
Smith William Chippenham 5a 92
obviously one would have to see the Cert to prove it is him, but there is not another couple in 1861 Wilts that matches.
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Thomas born 1827 Chirton (parents Thomas & Rebecca), had older siblings born or just christened ? in Urchfont (just west of Chirton):
Charles Chandler
Christening: 23 MAR 1813 Urchfont, Wiltshire
George Chandler
Christening: 26 JUN 1814 Urchfont, Wiltshire
John Chandler
Christening: 09 SEP 1817 Urchfont, Wiltshire
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Thanks Mort for all the information. To be honest my addled and senile brain is having some difficulty in colating all the information!
It seems then, that Mary Octavia had a father Thomas Chandler, and a grandfather Thomas Chandler and a great grandfather Danial Chandler. Are you saying one of the Thomas's was married twice?
It would be interesting to push this back futher beyond Danial sometime. But perhaps more to the point at the moment it would be useful to trace the male line of Chandlers down towards the present... oldest son to oldest son.
That way I may eventually be able to contact a living relative who may have some passed down information concerning the circumstances of Octie's sad and untimely demise in 1912.
( 'Octie' was the name used by the Wheeler family for Mary Octavia )
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It seems then, that Mary Octavia had a father Thomas (II) Chandler, and a grandfather Thomas (I) Chandler and a great grandfather Danial Chandler. Are you saying one of the Thomas's was married twice?
That seems correct from the information obtainable online.
The second marriage of Mary O's Grandfather Thomas (I) would have to be verified by obtaining the Certificate. But given all the evidence I believe Thomas in 1851 with Rebecca is the same man as Thomas in 1861 with a Sarah.
Tracing the male line should be possible, but cant be done totally here online due to guidelines about living people.
You would have to find a marriage for Thomas George born 1863, and then seek offspring in the (say) 1891 and 1901 census. Having ID'ed his oldest son, repeat the searches ...
:)
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Thomas G is still at home with his Father in 1881 and 1891 - lets see if we can find him in 1901 ;)
1901 RG13; Piece: 21; Folio: 61; Page: 10 Kensington Town, 4 Campden House Chambers
Thomas G Chandler 38 Head of Household born Devizes: BREWER
Mary F Chandler 30 Wife born Yorks, Ormesby
Muriel Chandler 7 daughter Kensington
Harriett E Smart 26 Servant
This marriage looks good, Ormesby is in the Middlesboro' District.
Marriages Mar 1893
Chandler Thomas George Middlesbro 9d 711
Deacon Mary Frances Middlesbro' 9d 711
In 1911, they are in Henley, Oxfordshire - but with no more children shown. (doesnt mean there werent, but makes it harder)
Might have to try the next son of Thomas (II) ?
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All the sons (Thomas, Alfred & Robert) are still at home in 1891.
Here is Alfred in 1901.
RG13; Piece: 1926; Folio: 76; Page: 6. Roundway parish, Devizes, Wilts. House named Longcroft
Alfred B Chandler 35 Head of Household born Devizes: Maltster
Ada B Chandler 35 Wife Wilts, Woodborough
Charles H Chandler 8 son Devizes (FreeBMD show's he was born Charles Harold 3Q1892 Devizes 5a 90 )
Rosa B Chandler 7 dau ditto
Ada M Chandler 5 dau ditto
Ethel Platten 24 Governess
Kate Drew 22 Cook
Minnie Morgan 23 Housemaid
They married:-
Marriages Sep 1891
Chandler Alfred Biggs Pewsey 5a 291
Lane Ada Beatrice Pewsey 5a 291
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Cannot see a marriage in the full names of Charles Harold (he's in Abingdon in the 1911 census, in some sort of institution - prob college ? )
Given that his bro' Thomas married as far away as Yorkshire, it's no good guessing at this. The only 'obvious' one is 1922 in Pewsey District to an Ida Watson - but you would have to obtain the Certificate to see if he names his Father Thomas.
Marriages Mar 1922
CHANDLER Charles H Watson Pewsey 5a 258
WATSON Ida C Chandler Pewsey 5a 258
If its correct we could then look for Chandler Births post 1922 with Mothers Maiden name Watson.
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Robert John the youngest son:
1901 RG13; Piece: 2370; Folio: 94; Page: 9 Bristol, Clifton district.
Robert J Chandler 30 Head of Household born Wilts, Devizes: Maltster & Brewer
Jessie D Chandler 27 Wife born Monmouth, Newport
Dorothy Chandler 4 daughter Bristol
Thomas R Chandler 1 son ditto
Annie Braddick 27 Servant (Nurse)
Augus Holder 26 Servant
Eva King 22 Servant
Joan D Mason 5 visitor
Here's the marriage:-
Marriages Sep 1895
Chandler Robert John Barton R. 6a 283
Dunbar John Barton R. 6a 283
Lawrence Victoria Elsie Barton R. 6a 283
Mason Jessie Dorothy Barton R. 6a 283
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Hi Mort, Many thanks!
I am getting a bit lost.... but..
Am i right in understanding that Mary Octavia had a brother Robert John born around 1871, and that he had a son, Thomas R born about 1900?
I know we are not allowed to research living people here but this is still some time ago.
Is it possible to follow the line further towards the present? Or am I asking too much?
Yours with gratitude. :)
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well, all those men I show (Thomas G, Alfred B and Robert John) are Mary O's brothers - see the list in the 1871 transcription I posted first thing today.
The point about living people will become effective if you go much further forward than 1911 for births, which is the point we are at now.
I cant go further online w/o purchasing Certificates now, as sadly the use of a full middle name isnt employed post c1909 in the Marriage Indices.
So Robert's son Thomas R(aymond) cant be easily used for marriage searching :(
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Ok Mort, thank you very much.
I have just noticed that there are four Chandlers listed in the phone book with addresses in Devizes.
Maybe I will concoct a little letter and write to them.... if that is not considered bad form? ???
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are you still pursuing a newspaper obituary and/or Mary O's actual Death Cert from the Consular Records - these may give the info you need w/o resorting to writing to people.
As you will have seen, only one of the sons stayed in the Devizes area - true, a later generation may have returned, or an earlier one stayed.
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Yes, I will try to trace a newsper obituary... didn't do anything about it today. About the consular site you gave me: I am not sure how to use this.... they seem to want me to sign up and pay quite a lot of money. Any advice?
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I think you can just pay to view one or two items, so buy the minimum # of credits.
My subscription to Ancestry is on an annual basis, but I use it a lot, so doesnt seem to hurt as much :P
You can buy 60 credits min it seems :(
PayAsYouGo options
PayAsYouGo 280 = Valid for 365 Days
Number of credits 280 credits - £24.95
PayAsYouGo 60 = Valid for 90 Days - 60 credits
£6.95
However, I think that this will only give a name and date etc, and hopefully Refn data so you can order the full Death Cert from the GRO
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Thanks again..
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I have just received a copy of Mary Octavia's will, dated and signed 14th June 1912... about a month before the date given for her death, 19th July 1912, in the Austrian Tyrol.
The will was proved in October that year. ( i hope this is the right terminology )
It seems to me then that authorities in Austria must have been pretty certain of the identification of her body, and possibly her date of death.
The story that her son was told was that she had disappeared.... gone for a walk and not come back.... and that weeks later the bodies of two women who could not be identified were found downstream in the river that passed the spa where she was staying.
This all looks a bit unlikely now..... What does anybody think?
I realise I've still got to check for local newspaper reports around the time of her death, perhaps for High Wycombe and in Brixen Where she died. Not sure how to do the foreign ones though.... ???
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Hi RP
Well done on getting the will. I agree there must have been strong evidence of her death for the will to be proved at that time.
Who were the executors of the will? If it was a firm of Solicitors maybe you could try to trace them or where their papers have gone? (they may have been destroyed of course) As the children were very young I assume the estate was held in trust until they reached the age of 21? Definitely worth pursuing as there could be papers from the Austrian authorities which enabled probate to be granted.
Barbara
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Thanks Barbara. The Executors were her brother, and also two nephews of her mother in law. One of the nephews was 18 in 1912 so he had Power Reserved.
The paper is stamped by the Probate office in Oxford, (October 1912 ) There is also the name of a firm of solicitors in High Wycombe who certify that it a genuine copy of the will.
I have just realised that anyone who googles Mary Octavia can now be directed to this site and read these threads. That is good in that they may have something to contribute, but a concern in that even after nearly a hundred years this may still be rather a sensitive subject in some families descending from Mary Octavia or her relatives. I hope nobody is offended so far!
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Hi, I just wanted to post something to keep this thread alive in case anyone is interested. I have been able to see some interesting reports in the Bucks Free Press on Mary Octavia's Memorial Service. It seems her death was a great shock and she was very sadly missed in her parish of Hazlemere where she was known for many acts of kindness. I am hoping to learn more in due course.
Meanwhile I would like to learn more about her husband's great great grandmother. She was known as Mary Smith of Wandsworth and is reported in family notes to have married Henry Wheeler b. 8-5-1747. Marriage reputed to be in 1776. It is presumed they then lived in at St James' Market in London where Henry had been born.
Some later Wheelers regarded her progeny as something of a mystery and infact attached some rather romantic notions to it. That is why I am interested to know more, though this is not directly relevant to my ongoing interest in Mary Octavia. Any help gratefully received. Best wishes.
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Hi, I just noticed that you have mentioned my GGrandfather and Mother, John and Elsie Victoria Lawrence, at the foot of your post.
Do you have any interets in them, or was this just a general note?
If you do, can you contact me on my e-mail address, (*)
Thanks
Moderator Comment: email address removed to help prevent spam and other abuses as per RootsChat Policy. Please use our secure PM (personal message) system to share email addresses and other personal information. Thank You.
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Hi. I read your entry on the Chandler family of Devizes with interest. I am descended from the same family. Robert John Chandler married Dorothy (Jessie) Mason and moved to Tasmania, Australia around 1908. They had 3 children, one of whom, Thomas Raymond was my grandfather. I was interested to hear about Mary Octavia. Did you find out more about how she drowned? I visited Devizes a few years ago and the painting of Robert John's father, Thomas, as Mayor of Devizes which was in the Town Hall, bore a striking resemblance to my brother.
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Not sure if this is the correct place for this?
Sarah Grace 1790 possibly Upavon who married William Grace of The Castle Hotel Devizes was ,we think,Sarah Chandler whose husband had died.Her maiden name was Maslen.
This information is from various wills.We know she died about 1851 and left money to her sister Louisa Elizabeth Maslen Perry 1822 and her niece Mary Sarah Sissons Perry 1848 who went on to marry a John Biggs Banks of Potterne.
We can't find where Sarah Maslen/Chandler/Grace was born.Also the age gap between the 'sisters' is very large.The suspicion is it may have been mother and daughter.
We believe that Sarah was baseborn and her mother was Elizabeth.
Does anyone have a possible link for this Sarah Chandler. What was her husband's christian name? ???
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I live in Meran in South Tyrol and amFDNWKO researching the British visitors and residents in Meran when it was a famous spa in the late 19th and early 20th century. A number of these people are buried in the Evangelical cemetery here. One of them has the inscription "Mary Octavia Wheeler d. 19 July 1912". This must I think be the person you are investigating. Is it possible that she was ill and came on a cure. Meran was a famous health resort. People did however also come here just for holidays in the later period just before the First World War
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I came across this thread after googling "CHANDLER Brewer Devizes". I am researching the surname CHANDLER in Wiltshire on behalf of the CHANDLER Family Association. In my possession I have a freebee CD from about 2005 which contained an extract from a Trade Directory for Devizes for 1848 and one entry was for 'Chandler Thos & Son, Malster, Bath Road' - hence the surfing. There were also entries for 'Chandler Jas, Beer retailer, The Brittox'; 'Chandler Hy, Tea dealer, The Brittox' and 'Chandler Wm Esq, The Green'.
DNA testing has shown there are at least 2 separate CHANDLERS families in north Wilts originating from the 14th century. I am part of Family #27, details of which can be found at:
http://chandlerfamilyassociation.org/dna_group_27.html
If there are any direct male descendants with the CHANDLER surname that are interested in taking a DNA test to find out which family they come from then please contact the Association, via the link above.
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Hi,I don't think any of my living family is related to Chandler. We think that a Richard Chandler could possibly be the first husband of Sarah possibly Maslen. In her will of around 1852 she leaves her money to Louisa Elizabeth Maslen Perry of Devizes and Hackney London. There is no mention of any children in her compressive will.