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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => East Lothian (Haddingtonshire) => Topic started by: Magian on Wednesday 03 February 10 17:27 GMT (UK)
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Does anyone recognise this Logan family from the 1991 census at Prestonkirk, East Linton?
David Logan Head aged 54
Helen Logan wife aged 54
Thomas Logan Barley Miller aged 18
John Logan Rural Postman aged 15
Helen Logan Scholar aged 12
The older children (David, Alexander, Margaret and James had left home at this stage)
The census claims that Thomas, John and Helen were born in East Linton but there is no record of them on Scotland's People.
David (father) states he was born in Paisley but again no record. The only one I can trace is Helen (wife) who was born in Edinburgh.
Any help would be appreciated.
Magian
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Hi Magian, :)
These records show as extracted on the IGI.
David LOGAN Marriage: 28th September 1868
Spouse: Helen BRYSON
Born to David and Helen:
Margaret Allan Wood LOGAN, b. 15th August 1869 North Berwick/Dirleton (registered at both)
James LOGAN, b. 26th September 1871 Dirleton
David Alexander LOGAN, b. 16th January 1874 Prestonkirk
The following births are from the SP index. East Linton was in the parish of Prestonkirk.
1877 Alexander LOGAN, reg. Prestonkirk
1882 Thomas LOGAN, reg. Prestonkirk
1886 John LOGAN, reg. Prestonkirk
1888 Helen LOGAN, reg. Prestonkirk
hume
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David and Helen show in the Prestonkirk MIs.
"ERECTED BY DAVID LOGAN TAILOR IN MEMORY OF HIS WIFE HELEN BRYSON WHO
DIED 18--- FEB 1905 ALSO THE ABOVE DAVID LOGAN WHO DIED 7 AUG 1912 He that
believeth in me though he were dead yet shall he live JOH[N] XI [25]"
If you purchase either David's marriage or death certificate from SP, it will hopefully give you his parents' names and help you find a birth/baptism for him.
hume :)
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Thanks for this Hume.
I have David's death and marriage certificates and know the names of his parents (James and Margaret Somerville).
I just can't find David's birth record anywhere or his parents marriage. Strange family when it comes to recording events - James Logan (the grandfather)died post 1968 but I can find him anywhere either. Been trying for years!
I'll get the certs for the Prestonkirk crew.
Magian
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Hi Magian,
Got two possibles for David in 1861 ...
One boarding in Kirkintilloch aged 15 and b. Barchester, Renfrewshire. Transcribed by our favourite indexers. ;D Definitely needs a check on SP. Occupation is taylor [sic] so matches up.
The other is a bit older, 20 and lodging at Market Street, Haddington. He's a tailor but his birthplace is Glasgow. Age and details could be off if they were only given as a guess by the head. :-\
Have you been able to find them in 1871? I had a quick scan but couldn't see anything promising.
hume
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Hi Hume
well I followed up on these certificates at Prestonkirk so things are coming together there. I'm working forward to their marriages and deaths now hoping to find cousins of my grandmother.
According to the information I have, David was born around 1847 in Paisley but that can vary between Glasgow and Renfrewshire depending on the document. That would match up with the age of 15 (1846), so I will definately get on to that trail.
The 20-year old in Haddington is also promising.
I have the 1881 and 1891 census information.
You have been a great help.
Magian
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Hi Hume
Chased up the clues you suggested but unfortunately they haven't shed any solid answers as yet.
Barchester is Barrhead!
The 15 year old David Logan is closest to the information I have yet the 20 year old would give me something to go on with a family in the West (just the mother's name doesn't fit in here). For it to tie in nicely (and there are several points in its favour), the married father (James) would have had to have conceived David Logan with a lover (Margaret), bang smack in the middle of his legal children. This would explain the elusive wedding certificate for James Logan and Margaret Somerville and birth cert for David Logan - see what I mean about tying in nicely. I do have a vivid imagination!! ;)
Time to re-think!
Best regards
Magian
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Hi Maigan,
What occupation did David give for his father on his marriage certificate? On David's death certificate, James Logan was a weaver (deceased) but I wonder if the other document could give a better idea.
There is a James and Margaret Logan having children around the time in Paisley, but Margaret's maiden surname was Crawford. Not one likely to be confused with Somerville unfortunately. :-\
They had 4 children per the IGI. Robert's birth is submitted.
James LOGAN, b. 1842 Paisley
Elizabeth Scott LOGAN, b. 1844 Paisley
John Crawford LOGAN, b. 1845 Paisley
Robert Crawford LOGAN, b. 1857 Hutchesontown, Glasgow
This James and Margaret married 1841 in Paisley.
hume :)
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On the marriage certificate James was listed as ex 92nd Gordon Highlanders. I obtained his discharge papers from Kew which records his intentions as moving to Edinburgh as a weaver.
James was still alive when David married Helen Bryson so I know he was around post 1868.
I reckon James was born around 1820.
Know you'll see why this particular area of research has eluded me for so long!! :(
Louise
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Hi Louise and Hume :)
From the discharge papers you have for James Snr, David's father, what do you estimate his birth year to have been as quite often age at discharge year is given. Is there a birth place showing for James in his attestation/ discharge papers? I've been having a look on the TNA but can't see a reference to a James Logan/92nd Gordon Highlanders (but I am rubbish at searching on line for military records at TNA :P).
There is this entry in 1851 - children showing as born in Paisley:
James Logan 61, Pensioner Chelsea b. Glasgow
Jean Logan 40 b. Ireland
Charlet Logan 10
James Logan 7
David Logan 3
Mary Logan 4 Months
Address: 11 Millerston, Paisley Abbey
I know it doesn't show mother as Margaret, but thought I would post just in case. What were then names of Helen Bryson's parents?
Monica :)
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Hi Louise and Monica,
I had that census entry on note, Monica, after Louise mentioned the army connection. Seems possible.
Charlotte (or Charlet as she's noted on the census) married a Thomas McCorkle (or McCorkindale) in 1866, Paisley. She gives her parents as James Logan, engineer (dec.) and Jane Logan m.s. Bolton (also dec.). Witnesses appear to be an Eliz. McCorkle and William McIrvine.
Marriage shows for James Logan and Jean Bolton on the 22nd February 1836 in Paisley. No children showing on the IGI - going to check SP. :-\
hume
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Hard one this one :-\ You seem to have convered all the bases Hume with possible entries for David in 1861 and can't see David and Helen after their marriage as yet in the 1871 census....
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I meant to also add that the children from this household seem to be all spread about in 1861 so likely parents had died by now?
Louise, one thing to bear in my mind, is that although David's father didn't show as deceased at the time of his marriage to Helen, this is not always accurate :-\
Monica
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Hi Guys
David and Helen were married in Edinburgh 28/9/1868 and moved down to Dirleton, East Lothian. Their first child Margaret Allan Wood Logan was born 15/8/1969 - they may have been c/o her parents but he was a journeyman tailor. On 26/9/1871 their son James arrived (named after both grandfathers?).
It is interesting to note that when David died in 1912, his son Thomas was the informant on the certificate and he left out David's mother's name. This all make the story more intriguing!
Magian
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Was Helen's mother also called Margaret? Just looking at a possible 1851 census entry for her. If so, what was her maiden name?
Anything on James Logan's details from TNA?
Monica
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Monica
Yes, Helen's mother was called Margaret too - no suggestion of any middle name. I have the family in the 1861 census in North Berwick (James, Margaret & their 2 children Helen 13 & William 6). This means Margaret would have been 23 at the 1871 census. At that time Margaret was married to David and living at 13 Potterrow, Edinburgh. He was away at the time of the census.
Now that I am home, I've been able to look up James Logan's service record.
James Logan was born in the parish of Govan, near the town of Govan in the County of Renfrew. He attested for the Regiment in Glasgow on 24 January 1873 aged 17 years 9 months. He was a tailor to trade. 1783 Sergeant James Logan was discharged on 2 May 1864 after 21years and 9 days service aged 39 years and 1 month.
12 years 53 days were served abroad.
Ionian Islands 2.18 years
Gibraltar 4.61 years
Crimea 263 days
East India 5.26 years
These dates suggest he was born April 1825 in Govan
Whew... I hope this is of some interest/help :)
Magian
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Some of your dates are a bit out here but I think I get the overall detail.
Have you seen this 1841 entry:
James Logan, 15, 92nd Regt Private Soldier, b. Scotland in Ardersier, Invernesshire. A large list of soldiers showing on the listing. Most showing aged 15 (remember in the 1841 census, ages were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 yrs for everyone over 15 yrs old).
A lot of overseas service for James Logan, I wonder of some of his children were born abroad?
Regarding Helen, I was just wondering about the middle names of Allan and Wood for David and Helen's first born daughter and whether they connected to Helen's mother Margaret's maiden name?
Monica
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Just to summarise (for my own benefit mostly!! :-[) ...
James LOGAN, b. c. 1825?? Govan married?? Margaret SOMERVILLE, had at least 1 child:
David LOGAN, b. c. 1847 in Paisley married Helen BRYSON 1868 Edinburgh
James possibly not in censuses until after 1864 and not described as deceased on David's m.c.?? Although, as Monica says, the latter does not suggest he wasn't. :-\
James was a tailor (army records)/92nd Gordon Highlander(army/m.c.)/weaver (d.c.).
They are certainly not an easy family to trace but the army connection could have caused them to be out of the country at certain points/different birthplaces.
A confused hume ???
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Monica and Hume
Sorry there was a typo - James signed up for the army on 24/1/1843. In 1841 census the place of birth doesn't fit in. Every document I hold states James is from Govan or Renfrewshire. The other thing is I have the official documents of James' service - he didn't sign up until 1843.
1783 Seargent James Logan is his roll number - not a date - sorry for confusion.
I have no idea if James and Margaret Somerville had any other children.
David Logan & Helen Bryson's daughter Margaret does have a long name. I have been able to go further back on the maternal side and find no connection to Allan or Wood. It's interesting to note though that Helen's father and grandfather were called James as was David's father yet they never called any of their sons James!
Although James was born in Govan there is no evidence to say he was married there (if at all).
According to a history of the Gordon Highlanders that I found on the Internet, the service companies were in Glasgow 1844 - June 45, thereafter in Edinburgh until April 1846 when it removed to Ireland until March 1851 when it removed to the Ionian Islands. This means James was away in Ireland when Margaret gave birth to David. Perhaps saying with his parents? It also raises the question was he conceived in Ireland and was she Irish? I tried to find out about the Irish connection but the army didn't record marriages at the point.
With 12 years 53 days were served abroad - I'd be surprised if the had the opportunity for more children!
Correct with David Logan - also a tailor. His marriage certificate of 1868 gives his parents names - it doesn't say they are deceased. All David and Helen's children were born in East Lothian.
It really is very confusing :(
Magian
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The 1841 census entry Monica posted would fit age wise and birthplace (it only says Scotland, so anywhere out of Invernesshire) but if James did only sign up in 1843, he should be on the 1841 census as a tailor (or similar).
I can see only one approximately matching the age given on his papers. James Logan, 15, tailor app[rentice], b. outside county in S. Main Street, Rosskeen, Ross & Cromarty. There is another; James, b. c. 1829, taylor [sic] with parents? Robert and Mary in Eastwood, Renfrew but the age is out a bit more.
Not sure what other records could be checked. I take it you have tried looking for a James Logan death record, b. c. 1825 and d. between 1863 and 1912-ish? In all counties, just in case his intentions of moving to Edinburgh didn't come to fruition.
hume :)
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The official army papers say he joined 1843 and this ties in with his 21 years in service, resigning in 1864.
I have also tried to find a death cert anywhere in Scotland for James but with no luck. I'm afraid I've hit a brick wall.
You can see how I I have remained stumped afters several years of research!
Thanks for yoyur help
Magian
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:'( We certainly do!
Just spent another little while this afternoon on censuses etc....and nothing more that the possible clues found so far :-\
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Thanks Monica
You've been a great help though
Magian
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:'( Stumped indeed. The family are so tricky and even though you've went to different sources (such as army records, which are not always available) it still hasn't brought anything to light. I'm afraid it may not ever be solved but you never know ... one day you might come across something by chance and there they are. Here's hoping!
hume :)
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Magian, I think you said in another of your posts that you are based in Edinburgh. Have you tried sitting at NRH for a day going through all the James Logan marriages (in case James Snr. remarried) and deaths to see if anything may shine out at you?!
Monica
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Monica
I have been to GRO many times & was in the very fortunate position of having a good friend who worked there who tried every angle for me.
As Hume says, he may well turn up one day. Perhaps one of David's offspring are also tracing the family. I live in hope.
Many thanks
Magian
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If you have already tried this avenue to follow though on James post his discharge, where now ???
As you say, fingers crossed and hope something may be found!
Monica
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Monica
At the meoment I don't know!
I think that I will try to trace forward from David's children with Helen Bryson - there were at least 6. My father was evecuated to East Lothian during WWII so I know there are still Logan's in the area.
I'm not giving up just yet (although I somethimes feel like it).
Cheers
Magian
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Hello, I have been researching my father's family for around five years. His great great grandfather was James Logan who died 11 July 1858 @ 11 Millerston, Paisley, age 68. He was married to Jean Bolton - born Ireland (1809-1858). His grandfather-father was Alexander born 1855, however I can find no trace of his birth certificate in Scotland, likewise for his siblings Charlotte/Charlet, James, David, and Mary (all shown on 1851 census in Paisley). I thought perhaps, they were all born during his army service or in Ireland. As to the mystery of the Logan's in East Linton, I have always known there were cousins there and have inherited photos taken there. I visited the grave of David Logan/Helen Bryson yesterday, and I believe from his birth cert, that his mother may have been a mistress of James Logan, and why there is no mother mentioned on his death cert. As to who Margaret Sommerville was, it's mystery? Happy to dig around even more into this Logan family.
Lenna.
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Hi,
I've just registered today, as I've just began my search for my husband's family, but a lot of the names here and dates seem to match up with a picture we've got here in the house.
I've got "The James Logan family emigrated in 1923"
James (Sr) married Williamina Millerknox
They had 4 children-- David, William, Jean, and James (Jr.), who is the only one listed on the picture as married, to Elizabeth Wakefield;
The picture I have is of the Logan's-- names listed are:
John, Alexander, David, William, Thomas, Margaret, David, Helen Bryson Logan, James, and Helen
Says on the bottom "Logan Family of East Linton-- Scotland, circa 1900".
Same? (http://)
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Hi,
I think your Logan family is the same as mine. James Logan 1877-1933) was the son of David Logan,who was my great grandfather (Alexander's) brother. I have been to East Linton (Prestonkirk), and visited David's grave. Can't seem to trace the Logan family back any further than his father, James (1870-1858). Happy to help with info if I can.
Regards,
lenna