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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: quiltlady on Monday 01 February 10 12:00 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone identify this couple. The girl was born Eva Dottle, but was sent to live with a host family to help her escape the Germans. She made it to England and married a British soldier. We do not have her adoptive name or his name. No record of anyone with her birth name entering England in the years 1939 to 1945. She apparently kept her adoptive name. No record of her birth parents. The photo was taken in the London area about 1940-1943.
Thanks
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Moderator comment: threads merged to prevent duplication
I have already posted a photo with no results. Chances are that few from the 1940's looks at RootsChat. Has anyone ever posted an old photograph in one of the English newspapers ? Is this possible or not a good idea, or don't the papers do this type of search, sort of like a lost and found activity. People do like to keep their identity private, but perhaps this person doesn't know she has family members looking for her. If she chooses not to respond, that's understandable, we just want her to know she has family that cares about her.
Suggestions welcome--thank you.
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Hi quiltlady,
Welcome to RootsChat ! :)
What a shame this is your third post and your first reply. Harsh as it may sound to you, it's against the policy of RootsChat to post details of people who may possibly still be alive. These links should explain :
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,142443.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,261434.0.html
The chance of someone finding the picture is possible, but only providing they search the name you've previously supplied. People search by using the written word and are then alerted to a post on this site.
Hope this makes sense and good luck !!
Kindest regards,
Pels.
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as been mentioned on your other post slightly hard when dealing with possible living people,
you need to find out what do you know about that photo?
and work backwards from that, if nothing? then as you mention the best option would probably be to contact the local paper pretty sure if your in the right area then someone will know know someone etc
Maybe start looking at the country she came from, sorry not a lot else thats probably helpful
good luck
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The Daily Mail has a Lost and Found piece on a Saturday, it's usually in the Coffee Break section along with the crosswords and cartoons. I think it may be a person that takes on searches for members of the public and the Mail pick one to feature.
There is an email address so might be worth the price of a newspaper to find out what it's all about!
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Hi quiltedlady :)
Welcome to Rootschat from me too.
It might help us to help you if you can tell us how you know that this is a photo of the person you say it is. Did she send it to someone that you know/knew? Does it have anything written on the back?
Gadget
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Yes- she signed the back of the photo - To My Dear Aunt From Eva and Husband--I was in contact with the Aunt 's daughter and she is the one who sent me the picture. She remembered when her mother received the picture back in the 1940's. We know the picture was taken at the Bennett Studio in a section of London, we have researched it . Not knowing the brides new adoptive surname nor the groom's name makes it doubly difficult. We have searched all of the English Government records as well as the Army records. No luck without a name. The only search that could be mounted was by the Bride's first name. That would be a real stretch.
Our last hope is posting it on RootsChat. Maybe someone will recognize the picture. We have not been able to find any records of her birth parents. We know they were killed during the war.
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This might sound daft, but to me the dress/outfit has an almost American feel to it - I wonder if old rowley or someone might be able to help ??
Will send him the link to this thread, no harm in asking.
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Hi quiltedlady,
Sorry, I don't have anything substantial to offer. You haven't mentioned which part of London the Bennet Studio is but you could narrow the marriages down by using FreeBMD and each quarter and the London district using the forename Eva. Probably throw up several, if not numerous possibilities, but may be worth it.
Also, you say that you've checked England Army Records - have you tried posting on Forum Military threads? Someone may recognise his insignia and make a breakthrough for you. Have you considered that the groom may not be British? Others will be more knowledgeable, but my husband thinks that the pocket on the trousers doesn't look like a British uniform, and might indicate a foreign force? What about Poland, etc? Worth a thought.
All the best and happy hunting, Kit
Have just seen Pels post. Worth a try eh?
What a handsome couple!
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just wanted to say good luck in your search ,
please keep us updated i would love to hear the outcome of this search
dee
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Hi again
Thank you for your answer to my questions. I just hope that someone will see this thread and the photo and recognise something.
I'm wondering if there is anything on her husband's uniform that can be identified.
Gadget
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Nope --the insignias are too small and the position of his body didn't allow for a good look at them. The Army Record's people were most helpful but came up empty. Looks like the whole search is headed that way. Oh well--- :D
Have a good weekend
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Could this be the photographer?
http://www.jewisheastend.com/boris.html
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another thought you say it was sent to her Aunt, have you traced that line?
as may give some clues with names etc
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Yes- the Aunt she sent it to was also my Aunt- I have been in touch with the Aunt's daughter , my cousin, who passed away last month at age 89. We corresponded for years. The aunt passed on in 1974. There is nothing we haven't missed with the family .
They were Jewish. I have also tried to trace them through Jewish genealogy for the past 10 years. Nothing ----
So , I'm afraid we are looking at a dead end. My cousin in NY has every imaginable resource for tracing at his fingertips. Ancestry.com was a bust, as well as all of the other sources. The only way is to trace the bride by her first name , and that would mean finding every British soldier who married a girl named Eva in that time frame. If by some strange reason she changed her first name , then we are totally out of luck.
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Could this be the photographer?
http://www.jewisheastend.com/boris.html
I think that's very interesting Jaywit .. it might explain her outfit being a cut above the rest. Also might give a clue to the area of registration ?
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I don't think there will be as many marriages to check through as you think. My guess is her husband was Jewish as well and if you look through the marriage index on Ancestry.Co.Uk there aren't that many marriages in the right time frame in London where the bride has the given name Eva and the groom has an obviously Jewish surname.
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As Boris achieved fame and fortune he used his position to help others, including assistance with the purchase a house in Finchley Road to provide shelter and support for young Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany
Very interesting from jaywit's link. Anyone tried Golders Green?
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Do you have the original photograph quiltlady ?
If you have, could you rescan it at 600 or 1200 dpi with no compression, we could possibly have another go at the detail on the uniform ?
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Just looking at the piece that he has on his pocket. Is it a negative image of a maple leaf? This looks to me like it could be a Canadian uniform :-\
Has anyone got any photos of various allies' uniforms in WW2?
gadget
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As Boris achieved fame and fortune he used his position to help others, including assistance with the purchase a house in Finchley Road to provide shelter and support for young Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany
Very interesting from jaywit's link. Anyone tried Golders Green?
Golders Green came under Hendon district.
There are about a dozen or so marriages during WW2 that would fit, but some have a second given name initial eg. Eva A ....
Did Eva have another given name?
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Just looking at the piece that he has on his pocket. Is it a negative image of a maple leaf? This looks to me like it could be a Canadian uniform :-\
Has anyone got any photos of various allies' uniforms in WW2?
gadget
A comparison.
(http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=435251.0;id=169333;image)(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:vJro_p1jFCXcIM:http://cas.awm.gov.au/screen_img/REL/09090)
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Pictures of uniforms on here.
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-uniforms/all-forces.htm
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I thought the white thing on his pocket was a wedding decoration - looks like a crocheted or fabric horseshoe....would that be against the rules for a man in uniform?
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some more Canadian badges:
(http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/canada/canada10.jpg)
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I thought the white thing on his pocket was a wedding decoration - looks like a crocheted or fabric horseshoe....would that be against the rules for a man in uniform?
I have seen photos with the groom, a soldier wearing a button hole pinned to his uniform. Could this be a Jewish wedding symbol of some kind?
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It's not a star of David. To me, it's either a negative maple leaf or a laurel leaf wreath of some kind. Still going through lots of images.
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WW2 Wedding photos.
http://www.fashion-era.com/Weddings/1945_old_wedding_photos.htm
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Her country of birth, approximate birthdate and her parents full names would be of great help when checking Jewish marriage records, any marriage records in fact ;D
She doesn't look of an age where she would change her name .... she must have been almost an adult when sent to England.
dollylee
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Others will be more knowledgeable, but my husband thinks that the pocket on the trousers doesn't look like a British uniform, and might indicate a foreign force? What about Poland, etc? Worth a thought.
The pocket on the trouser style was apparently worn by the Polish force http://www.wwiipolishlhg.org/
but to my totally unexpert eye, all allied forces seem to have similar uniforms!
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I think we need someone from the Armed Forces board to help identify the uniform. I'll put a thead on there with a link to this one.
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The only way is to pull all of the soldiers that married an Eva during the 1940's . Ancestry .com has tons of Evas but the soldier may not have been Jewish , so picking a Jewish sounding name may not work. Our guess is that her parent's gave her to a non Jewish family to assure that she would get to safety. Thusly, she may not have followed the Jewish religion. Don't know how old she was when the adoption took place.
:D
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Lets see if we get any help regarding the uniform from the Armed Forces board. We may have to wait until tomorrow. My gut feeling is that the groom isn't English and he was serving in some other Allied Army stationed in England. Not from any experience just a gut feeling.
So hold on.
Quiltlady did you see the post asking if you have the original photo?
A better scan would help everyone if it's possible.
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Welcome to Rootschat :)
Sorry not to be offering any help, but just wanted to ask a couple of questions...
You say she was sent to England,...where from? Ie, what country was she born in?
You do say, that you don't know when she was sent to England, but not as a infant surely? Would she have been officially adopted? Or was she taken in by people who were helping the cause? She looks in her 20's in that photo, so would that put her date of birth around 1920 or so?
Lastly, if her name wasn't changed, could it have been spelt differenty, sounding different...any of those options...
I do hope you find something...and wish you all the luck. :)
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Others will be more knowledgeable, but my husband thinks that the pocket on the trousers doesn't look like a British uniform, and might indicate a foreign force? What about Poland, etc? Worth a thought.
The pocket on the trouser style was apparently worn by the Polish force http://www.wwiipolishlhg.org/
but to my totally unexpert eye, all allied forces seem to have similar uniforms!
I'm looking at the photo and the first thought I have is .... he's Polish!
I'm not an expert, this is coming from the deep recesses of my wartime memories, triggered by his uniform and his hairstyle :-\
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Just had a good look at the photo searching for any clues. This may sound silly but does anyone know anything about flowers? The time of year that these particular flowers are in bloom may give a clue to quarter in which they married, unless they are artificial of course. I know these days most flowers can be imported from other countries but was that the case in the war years or did they just use what was in season? They look like lillies to me.
Jool
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Gladioli maybe?
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Lilies - hot house or outdoors in June/July but could be artificial maybe :-\
Not sure about the war effort though - I thought that everything went into growing veg :-\
Added - Don't think he's Polish Army:
(http://jewishwebindex.com/Poland%20-%20Army%20Military%20blouse.jpg)
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Quiltlady, another question I'm afraid.
When Eva wrote to her aunt from herself and her husband .. what made everyone think he was in fact British. Was it because they married in London, or have you been told something else that made you believe he was ?
I fully understand you must be overwhelmed by all this reaction, after your initial lack of response.
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Until the army experts come along, how about this description iof WW2 British battledress:
Attempting to create a more standardized uniform across much of the British military, it was composed of a fairly streamlined short jacket of wool serge that buttoned to the outside of high-waisted wool serge trousers. The jacket (or blouse) was copied as the American Ike jacket of late WWII. The sleeves of the British jacket had a forward curve built into them so that they were more comfortable to wear prone shouldering a rifle, or seated holding a steering wheel for instance, although they tended to show multiple wrinkles near the inside of the elbow when the soldier's arms were held straight at the sides. On the pants or trousers, there was a large map pocket on the front near the left knee and a special pocket for a field dressing near the right front pocket
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_Dress
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Welcome to rootschat ,Looking at the uniform I see there is something on the grooms left sleeve . I am not sure about the symbol on the jacket pocket to me it looks like a sort of broach ,could it be a Jewish symbol.The brides dress looks expensive to me.Could it have been borrowed from a Jewish family .
Elizabeth
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Certainly one of the Boris Bennett studios, in Whitechapel or Oxford Street, as this photo of another wedding shows a very similar background. Suggests it is a Jewish wedding and not a poor one. Dress looks expensive, and rather a lot of material considering wartime clothes rationing and restrictions on the amount of material used in a dress. The Jewish Museum in London has a collection of his material & might be able to provide information www.jewishmuseum.org.uk (http://www.jewishmuseum.org.uk). Otherwise, do the company records survive anywhere?
Robert
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Hi Quiltlady and another welcome to RC.
Dont want to put a damper on this but that looks like the white symbol has been added afterwards as it just doesnt sit right........but that of course is only my opinion........sure someone will find you the answer. Good luck.....thats one attractive bride!!
Steve.
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I agree with Robbo
What made me think it was a Jewish wedding is that when I was young my aunt lived next door to a Synagogue in Leazes Park Road Newcastle and she used to send me out to look at the weddings they were always grandly dressed
Elizabeth
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This Canadian uniform looks like the same uniform as the groom is wearing.
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Dollylee, what an excellent find.
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Hi there,
In the event he was a Canadian Soldier a great site is www.canadianwarbrides.com
Karen
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Hi
The uniform itself will not identify his nationality, it is of a pattern used by many of the allies.
If he was NOT in a British unit, he would have a flash/badge at the top of his arm giving his units nationality. ie CANADA, POLAND etc
I cannot see one, so I think he is British, or, serving in a British unit.
Can you post a close up of the badges at the top of his sleeve, it may be possible to make out the formation flashs.
The white emblem on his left breast is related, I believe, to his marriage and not his military service.
Regards
Pete
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Pete Thanks for that. We are waiting for the OP to come back with a better scan and more details.
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The badges on the sleeve. Not sure about the top one but I think the lower one is a 'trade' badge. Showing he was trained in a specific job in his regiment.
My first thought was it was a propellor but that wouldn't fit for an army uniform more RAF regiment, but then ther possibly would be something on the epaullet. The bit at the top buttoned up.
Jean
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I just read a topic looking for a gentleman in the U.S. Within three pages three unknown relatives showed up, not only with information to add but pictures as well. I believe this must have been through doing a search on google.
I know we have privacy laws but apparently this girl did not use the name the poster knew her by once she got to England. With this in mind could she not post the name of the girl again, the name of the parents, the girls birthdate if known and her country of origin? With amazing luck someone might find the thread and privately give information to the original poster.
This family was torn apart by an inhumane war and it would be wonderful for them to be reunited.
dollylee
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Quiltlady,
I see you have searched for her entry to Britain for the period 39-45.
I think you could go back another couple of years, say to 36. Jewish immigration to avoid the Nazi's was high prior to the start of the war, I think it actually decreased during the war as it was difficult to move around.
Also, if she was Jewish, have you been in contact with any Jewish organisations?
If her husband was not Jewish, her children still could be, so a request to someone like the Chronicle may result in the photo being published.
Do you know if her husband survived the war? Any extra details would be a help.
Regards
Pete
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The suggestion of posting a painting of the bride in cyber space might stir someone's memory. Do you know anyone who has had success this way.
sara
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Well...I can confirm that this is a British uniform (1937 pattern) and taken prior to 1944.
It is a pity that this is a poor scan of the original. Do you have the original to hand?
There are no trade badges on the uniform, only an Arm Of Service strip, and possibly a divisional badge....I would have expected a Regimental shoulder title, but there is none visible.
Has has been pointed out, if foreign serving in the British Army (Free French, Norwegian, Polish etc, and yes, even Canadians!), he would have the distinctions of that country on this type of battledress. I would not expect to see an Arm Of Service strip on foreign nationals, even in British BD. That is peculiar to British units.
All of the Empire, Commonwealth and Dominion troops wore virtually the same uniform....The Canadian one was of a more greener hue of khaki that the British, and the Australians mostly wore a tunic more akin to a WW1 type. This is the same as the "Free" troops under British command until late in the war when the French were eventually equipped with a variation on American kit.
The horseshoe symbol (toes upwards so the luck doesn't run out) is common, and such things can be seen on wedding pics of the period and can be worn when in uniform.
There may be a trace of an early type of shoulder title (up to 1941) on the epaulette, but again we need a good scan to see this properly.
Just because the dress looks expensive, it doesn't necessarily mean that she is Jewish...Many dresses were loaned /hired during the war, and of course, some people had the money and/or connections to "source" a nice wedding dress...He appears to be a private soldier with no rank (unless something turns up on the better scan!) And I would expect an officer to be wearing Service Dress, not Battledress (BD), and of course if an officer in BD he would have his collar open and be wearing a tie...
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Thanks for that, if it was before 1944 then at least we can narrow it down a little.
The Jewish connection comes mainly from the photographer used. He does appear to photograph mainly Jewish weddings, and of course the OP said Eva was Jewish.
It is just a better scan we need plus information on Eva's age etc to help us along.
I agree about the dress, I suspect in close knit communities like London Jews wedding dresses were passed around at that time and I would guess it was originally a pre war dress.
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Think I've got it-
I sent this as a jpeg file --I got a message that there was an error. The reason given was it was an etm. file That's not how I sent it. Don't know what to do now. The original is clearer, but don't know how else to send it.
Sara
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Hi Sara
I got the photo. The .eml is an email attachement file. I managed to open it in Outlook Express of all things and then saved the attachment as a jpg.
It's very small as it is and won't give anymore information than the one you've put up :-\
I've attached it here to see if anyone might have some enlarging software.
Would it be possible to get the person who sent it to you to scan it again at a much higher resolution - say 600-1200 dpi?
Gadget
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I will try something else that may send it larger. The photo was sent to me by the cousin of the bride--it was the only contact she ever had with the bride. The photo was sent to my cousin's mother and she put it in her box of family snippets. When the Aunt passed on in 1974 my cousin took her mother's box of memorabilia. She went through it but didn't pursue any method of contacting the bride or her family because there was no information about them anywhere.
They became our ghost family.
Sara
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I know you've tried a lot of these, but the following link is to the links page of the the London Jewish Museum:
http://www.jewishmuseum.org.uk/?location_id=113
The only way we will get any further with the photo is a close up on his left upper arm, but tbh I dont think the position he is stood in is going to allow anything definitive.
Regards
Pete
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Awww...Pete, come on mate, you know we can work some wonders sometimes!! The glass is half full!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I've attached it here to see if anyone might have some enlarging software.
Had a go at enlarging using "Genuine Fractals". Unfortunately it was no better than the one you enlarged to compare the badge on the pocket.
Pels.
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Sorry about that- I guess enlarging won't be possible.
Sara
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Hi Sara :)
The only way to get an enlarged view is to re-scan that area at a high resolution - say 300-600dpi. Otherwise, all we're doing is blowing up a blurry picture and that just makes it more blurry. The software that Pels uses can sometimes yield good results, but obviously not in this instance. :-\
Cheers
Prue
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Prue
-tried but it wouldn't send to you . It was in the jpeg size-but it said error and listed jpeg as a correct size to send.
I did crop and enlarge it - the emblem near the shoulder had a circle and 2 light , Or white markings in it , one over the other --the name of the country or unit was not readable.
Sara
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I'm wondering if it might be worth tackling it from the photgrapher's end again?
Jaywit gave the link to him:
http://www.jewisheastend.com/boris.html
and someone else mentioned the JewishChronicle.
Maybe a piece in that newspaper with a copy of the photo might trigger someone's memory or someone may know of any Bennett negs/photo collections.
Gadget
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Hi Gadget-
The Bennett studio is history-- I contacted the people who bought it in 1963. Nothing was available from the studio. The Bennett family is gone. There are no negatives available to search. I also contacted several museums that do have B.Bennett's pictures hanging in their collections. Nothing -----
So the picture isn't much help --maybe if it was posted in a London newspaper !!! I wrote to the Daily Mirror about 10 days ago , but have had no response .
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Not sure that a National daily like the Mirror would be any good. I think the Jewish Chronicle would be better first of all:
http://www.thejc.com
Added - Just been looking for other newspaper links:
Evening Standard:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/
Metro (I think):
http://www.metro.co.uk/home/
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Hi,
I did have a look in here when it was first posted but couldn't think of anything useful to say.
However, the sugestions to post in a newspaper is a good one.
Even better I think, might be a Genealogy magazine.
I'm sure there is a UK magazine the does exactly this kind of thing. One of our Australian ones does but of course it won't help in this instance.
Anyone out there buy those magazines on a regular basis? Or even scan through them in the news Agency?
Someone in the wider community may recognise the photo.
At least worth a try.
Leonie.
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I'm not sure if I'm understanding the situation ... (and welcome Quilt-Lady, by the way !) ... but have you sent the jpeg you say you are having trouble with down-loading, to Gadget via email ? She can PM you her private email, and you can send it to her to post for you ?
Fascinating thread ... and if anyone can crack this one, I'm sure its Rootschat members !
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Hi Lydart
Yes, I received it yesterday and managed to convert it to jpg (from .eml) but it can't be enlarged - too small. Pels tried with one of the progs she has but it didn't work.
Gadget
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I think Quiltlady sent it to Gadget and Gadget posted it, but couldn't enlarge it. A couple of pages back.
Unless Gadget deleted. ::)
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Oops... ;D
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Bigger scan needed then !
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That's what we've been saying since page 1 but Sara doesn't have it as far as I can work out and I'm not sure if the person who sent it has it either :-\
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Doesn't have original.
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;D
Loney - I think you and I will have to liaise :-X
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Doesn't have original.
Pity ...
There's always more than one way to kill a cat ... as someone said, the Jewish Chronicle might be the way ...
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I think I'd still be inclined to try the suggestion for the Daily Mail's " Missing ..... and Found" service.
It never ceases to amaze me how far this paper travels. I've seen replies from the States, Australia, and Canada in there and, if nothing comes of it - what have you lost?
Tony
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There are three matches on G.R. for a Lilian Dottle b. 1872..birth place unkown....You just never know where it might lead.......I've tried everything else and come up with a duck egg I'm afraid :-\.
Good Luck!
Carol
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Okay,
Can you describe the unit badge at the top of his sleeve,
So far I;ve got a circle with two white flashes.
How big is the circle , 1",2" etc
Are the two white flashes horizontal or vertical.
Are they parallel.
Cheers
Pete.
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I've been browsing this touching thread and am still puzzled as to how you know her name was Eva Dottle at birth, when everything else about her is unknown.
I was going to suggest that she might have had to apply for Naturalisation and could be recorded somewhere. I know nothing about this but other RCs might.
Colin
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Hi Colin-
The picture she sent to my aunt, here in the states, was signed on the back --"to my dear aunt from Eva and husband". This was the only niece my aunt had that lived in Europe and the picture came from Europe. My aunt had received one post from her brother in the late 1930s , saying that things were very bad in Poland and all over Europe for that matter. He also said that work was impossible to find and food was scarce. He also mentioned his family was having a really hard time of it.
He and his wife were a bit older , in their forties when Eva was born, so it was probably doubly difficult for them with a young girl to take care of.
That's why we have the feeling that she might have been given to a non-Jewish family so that she could find a safe haven to avoid the Germans who were on the march.
Probably hoped if they all survived that after the war they could re-unite with her. Apparently that did not happen
At least Eva made it to England and evidently kept her new adoptive name. There are no records from the 1930s or 1940s anywhere that we can find with and Eva Dottel entering GB.
Her parents were never heard from after that first letter. We assume they didn't survive.. Hope this explains the situation. Sara
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Hi Sara
The following link takes you to a whole page full of Polish Jewish research sites - there is one on the left side, lower down, for the Jewish record Indexing, you may need to try several variations on the spelling (and its not that user friendly!) but it may locate her or her parents, her date of birth may then follow.
Am still looking for the badge!
Pete
Sorry, missed the linl off......this is the name index I was talking about
http://www.jewishgen.org/jri-pl/
Cheers
pete
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Pete-
I sent a copy of the blow up to "scrimnet" but I couldn't get it through to you. I have his direct e-mail address. Don't know if my first mail went through . Jewishgen has nothing for us. Have scoured their records for years.
Sara
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The email with the pic came through...eventually!! ;D
Now of course, my mail provider is down...PAH!
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I may have some good news...
After playing with the pixels....
I will date the pic to no later than October 1943, and no earlier than Sept 1940
I am opined that he is from the Royal Engineers and quite very well in 23rd Armoured (Army Tank) Brigade...
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This thread shows the bde patch, the Liver Bird...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,307579.0.html
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Hi Sara,
I'm sorry but I still can't see the "refugee" connection, unless you think that your late Aunt's brother was in Poland when he sent her that letter. I would think it more likely that he was in London and just referring to the general happenings in Europe. Couldn't it be that Eva was their natural daughter, born in England, and she sent a wedding picture to her "Dear Aunt", who then remarked how like her father she was?
Colin
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Colin, from what I have understood, Eva was Polish, and born in Poland.
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Scrimnet,
You think the Arm of Service badge is two colours?
I use the following site to help identify formation badges:
http://www.petergh.f2s.com/flashes.html#home
Sadly, the link does not improve my eyesight!
Liver Bird, yep, interesting possibility. Went down the route that 23rd AB had a Polish tank formation, but their badge has a massive plume on top.
Cheers
Pete
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Hi all
Sorrry to put a damper on all this but:
I am opined that he is from the Royal Engineers and quite very well in 23rd Armoured (Army Tank) Brigade..
How many men would be in this category?
Is there a way of finding out who in this category married in London between 1940 and 1943?
Gadget
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That, gadge, I considered ;)
Here is the PM I sent to Sara this AM...
Well....We may have narrowed him down to a few hundred or thereabouts.
The MOD will not release records for WW2 for sometime. It may be worth going to the museum to see if the units within that brigade left any pictures / records, but I have the feeling that this story may have some years yet to run, due to there being no records in the public domain!!!
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Sara
I have only just caught up on this thread.. Try posting the picture on www.ww2talk.com or www.cfww2.com and see what their knowledgeable people com up with. They wont be able to help with who and when and where but they may be able to ID the uniform....
Cant promise anything but you never know!
Dee
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I have already tried ww2talk but with no more progress, more confusion in fact!
Not tried the other site though.
Regards
Pete
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Sara
I have only just caught up on this thread.. Try posting the picture on www.ww2talk.com or www.cfww2.com and see what their knowledgeable people com up with. They wont be able to help with who and when and where but they may be able to ID the uniform....
Cant promise anything but you never know!
Dee
Oooh cheeky! ;D
We have done our best here and what we have is as near as!!
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Scrim I always say that you are a brilliant authority and I recommend people to you from those forums. Dont know about you though I try every source I can get for information! xx
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Thanks Dee ! ;D ;D ;D ;D
I certainly look in oodles of places and have oodles of books...and yes I look on oodles of sites as well!!
I have actually spent many hours wailing and gnashing of teeth on this one, and quiltlady kindly sent me a larger scan....
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I thought you probably did. By the way I sent someone in your direction the other day. Dont know whether they have posted a thread yet but hopefully you will be able to help with that one too!
Dee
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I have no idea what this tread is about as it's seven pages long, but the photo is so lovely, I couldn't help playing with it after Gadget posted a link to it on another thread.
Regards
Caroline
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Hi
Have you checked with any synagogues in the area of the photographical studio if and how many Eva's they have marrying in your time period?
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Sorry, hadn't realised the pic had not posted.
Anyway, here is my clean up.
Caroline
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Scrimnet et al
Much clearer picture now available, this link goes to a Jewish gen site where it has been posted.
Sara - can you post the same image her, saves people having to go back and forward on a link.
http://www.jewishgen.org/ViewMate/viewmateview.asp?key=14649
Pete
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Is it possible to blow up the top formation badge pls?
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Oh, that's a much better photo, Pete.
I think Pels or one of the others who have special enlarging software might be able to do something :)
Gadget
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Hopefully Sara won't mind me reposting the image, it will give it the exposure she was hoping for in the first place. I'll give the enlargement a go Gadget, but can't promise anything ! :(
(http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8199/14649evawed001.jpg)
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Tried using Genuine Fractals, sadly it's no clearer. The picture is only about 110 kb, so although it looks in better condition than the original one that Sara posted, it's quite compressed.
(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/1672/14649evawed001x.jpg)
(http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/1193/14649evawed001xx.jpg)
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A very interesting tale.
The embroidered badge on the pocket looks to me like a cat or fox sitting on the wreath. You can see a tail hanging down.
Does anyone else see this?
Judy
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A few points.
Would this thread be better placed on a different thread with the name Eva Dottle clearly emphasised?
On the IGI (Family Search) there are over 23 Dietels in Germany.
On Google I have found, by putting in Eva Dietel, the names Dottele, Dietel and Duttal.
Dietel is also a place in Russia/Poland near the Volga River.
I am just throwing in my few pence worth in case it stirs up someone's memory. ;D
I am intrigued by this mystery. I hope you find a solution.
Judy
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Hi,
Just going over some 'unsolved' bits and pieces.
Can you remind me.....
Did you contact the Association for Jewish Refugees in the UK,
http://www.ajr.org.uk/
and
Have you tried to obtain the Yad-Vashem sheets for her parents (if they exist, of course - only 3m of the 6m people are recorded.)
Cheers
Pete
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I have been looking at photos of Jewish weddings online, particularly those taken in London at this time. In many photos the groom wore something very like this laurel leaf. I believe it was simply a custom, like carrying a lucky horse shoe.
If you have a look at this 2014 article from the Daily Mail you will see a whole host photos and several have the grooms wearing a version of this. I had my suspicions because it was so big, far too big to be a genuine army badge. It is more like a brooch really. See what you think.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2843939/Captivating-wedding-pictures-archives-one-photographer-brought-touch-Hollywood-glamour-London-s-gritty-impoverished-East-End.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2843939/Captivating-wedding-pictures-archives-one-photographer-brought-touch-Hollywood-glamour-London-s-gritty-impoverished-East-End.html)
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My apologies if this has been noted previously, but the link to the Daily Mail makes mention of the London photographer "Boris Bennett". If this name is Googled, his dates are given (1900 - 1985).
His collection of negatives over the years must provide quite a social archive of the Jewish community in London's East End, and it is possible that some organisation is now the custodian of these negatives/plates, and possibly record paperwork if these survived.
Googling the photographers name and dates, together with "archive" provided several "hits". The archivist appears to be a Michael Greisman (http://www.jeecs.org.uk/news/92-boris-website-showcases-east-end-glamour) acting on behalf of the Jewish East End Celebration Society (enquiries@jeecs.org.uk).
The same background in the "Dottle" photograph can be seen in several of the photographs in the Daily Mail article posted earlier today by LouiseB31. Whether this is a studio set, or an actual location is however a moot point.
Again my apologies if I am recrossing old ground.
Istrice
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"Can anyone identify this couple"
Not the couple but the "window" or structure behind the couple is the same as the background of the couple identified as Barnet Brampton/Annie Saltzman married 23 January 1936 ???
Brampton/Satlzman are included in the photographs submitted by RootsChatter Jaywit in "Jewish East End of London Photo Gallery and Commentary" on this thread.
Bad news I cannot find the Brampton/Saltzman marriage.