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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: charlotteCH on Saturday 06 February 10 02:31 GMT (UK)
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In 1816 in Cork Ireland, Charles Jonas Hargreaves was born. His father Jonas Hargreaves was RSM of 82nd Regiment of Foot.
Can someone please help me find a birth/baptism record that might give me a more precise date and location?
Any help/guidance much appreciated.
thank you,
charlotte
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Usually you would need to know the families religion and where the family lived (parish, town or townland) to start a search for a baptism. The army had several bases both in Cork city and around the county - is there any indication as to where Jonas may have been posted at the time ?
Some county Cork church records are available on the pay-website of the Irish Family History Foundation at : www.irish-roots.ie Note that this site focuses on North East County Cork at the moment, and does not include other areas -e.g. Cork City, south and west county ect.
The IrishGenealogy website at http://www.irishgenealogy.ie/ plans to add Cork records soon - but they dont mention a timescale, or details the parishes to be included in the update.
Shane
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Hi, The regiment was stationed at Ft Charles in Kinsale at the time of birth I think... hence the name Charles. His parents were from Ovenden nr Halifax and the baptism was probably Church of England [ Charles older sister was baptised thus in 1810] but could have been nonconformist- Conregational Independent ].
Would the birth be recorded in the 82nd Foot Chaplains returns?
Thanks for your help :)
charlotte
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Hi, The regiment was stationed at Ft Charles in Kinsale at the time of birth I think... hence the name Charles. His parents were from Ovenden nr Halifax and the baptism was probably Church of England [ Charles older sister was baptised thus in 1810] but could have been nonconformist- Conregational Independent ].
Would the birth be recorded in the 82nd Foot Chaplains returns?
Thanks for your help :)
charlotte
Kinsale is to the west of Cork City and outside the area covered by the IFHF website. I am not familiar with details on non-conformist baptisms, or army chaplin returns but suspect these would be worth checking out..
Shane
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Thank you :)
charlotte
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Hi Charlotte,
I too am beavering away at uncovering my family's Irish roots as my great grandfather was born on Spike Island in 1849 and as GRO records start in January 1837 I have been blessed with the knowledge that I can obtain a birth certificate for him that should tell me his fathers occupation which I believe is a soldier - so I am working backwards.
If the child's father was indeed in the British Army then there will be records at The National Archives at Kew which you can either research yourself or pay a researcher to do the work for you - I intend to do the latter.
They include - Regimental Registers of Soldiers Marriages, Births and Baptisms (1790 - 1924 and indexed for Baptisms)
Chaplain returns from 1796 -1880 and indexed.
Station returns which start in 1759 and list the regiments stationed in a town for a given year.
There are also muster and pay books held at Kew in Series W012 - you will need a readers ticket.
I was laboring under the impression that all Irish BMD's would be held in Ireland but evidently this is not the case (thank goodness, as most were lost in the fire) so I wish you well in you search. Jean
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I was laboring under the impression that all Irish BMD's would be held in Ireland but evidently this is not the case (thank goodness, as most were lost in the fire)
All Irish civil registration survive- births, deaths and Catholic marriages from 1864 and other marriages from 1845.
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My apologies - I was led to believe that a lot of the older records were destroyed in a big fire but evidently I have got it wrong.
As for all the Irish Civil BMD's surviving from 1864 and other marriages from 1845 I am quite sure that this is true but although the family that I am researching is Irish I have been unable to trace them through the Irish BMD's and have only recently discovered that I can obtain BMD's through the GRO from January 1937 which seems odd to me as they are, after all, Irish. Maybe something to do with Cork being a treaty port but I'm not even going to go there.
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I fairly certain the English GRO records you mention include family of just military personal in Ireland, not the general population. Also English civil registration started in July of 1837...
Shane
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Yes, the GRO records you've been able to locate (from 1837) are for military personnel and families. Ireland was part of the U.K. but civil registration came into effect later here.
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there are two other possible sources of BMDs for military personnel and their immediate family, but I dont know the details on accessing these :
# Regimental indexes 1761-1924 – BMDs of soldiers and their families. These include UK regimental births from 1761 and overseas from 1790. The marriages are not indexed, so you must know the regiment.
# Army chaplains’ indexes 1761-1880 – some may be the same as from the regimental records. (These are for baptisms and burials, rather than births and deaths).
Shane
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Thank you. Yes I meant to say 1837 and not 1937. As Charlotte is researching a family with a military background I thought that the information would be as helpful to her as it has been to me.
I never meant to cause any offense and am sure that the Irish civil BMD's are reliable but it has been the difference between military and civil records that I have found confusing, I admit I have a lot to learn. Regards, Jean.
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Surviving army service records for men discharged before the end of 1854 are on microfilm in Kew, and have been indexed by the Friends of the NA. You enter the name in the NA Cataloque - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp?j=1
It is entries in WO97 or WO121 you are looking for. There is Jonas' record - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=-3997312&CATLN=7&Highlight=%2CJONAS%2CHARGREAVES&accessmethod=0
The NA used to charge 40p a page plus postage, but now you have to go to Kew to print it off yourself or use a researcher. If a man's record has not survived you can, as Jean says, use the muster books in Kew, if you know the regiment.
Papers for men discharged 1914 to 1920 are included in the WW1 records on Ancestry. Only 20% survived German bombing in WW2. The remainder - for men discharged 1855 to 1913 - are being put online by Findmypast. 'By 2011' is what they are quoting, but they are about five months behind with the scanning.
Ken
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Thank you all for your help and Ken for that URL.
I have Jonas' [82nd Foot]Attestation Papers from Kew and know quite a bit about him.
It is Jonas' son, Charles Jonas Hargreaves whose baptism date I'm seeking- I believe the 82nd were stationed at Ft Charles Kinsale when he was born. I don't know Charles birth date and have hoped that the baptism records would throw some light on this.
Does anyone know if any of the Chaplains' Returns are online on any of the subscription sites please? An**stry, FindMyPast et al? Perhaps that is one way to try to find this baptism record.
Thank you again,
charlotte
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The information I have only says they were in Dover and Ireland between January 1816 and January 1819 when they left for 13 years in Mauritius. To find when he was in Kinsale (or in fact anywhere between those dates) you will have to go to Kew and look at the muster books in WO12. These tell you where each man was on the first of each month. It is then a question of looking at the church records of the places he passed.
The army year ran 26th March to 25th March then. It took them another ten years to adopt Gregorian months. The 2nd Battalion was disbanded on Christmas Day 1815. After which they would have had one extra large battalion, which would have been gradually reduced.
FindMyPast have the regimental BMDs. I had a link to a free site once, but I cannot find it. There is also WO156 in Kew - UK and overseas garrisons: Registers of Baptisms, Confirmations, Deaths/Burials, and Marriage – which start in 1808.
Ken
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Update about Findmypast
Findmypast put surviving army records for men discharged 1883 to 1900 online yesterday. They are quoting by April next year for the rest of the pre WW1 papers.
Ken