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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: fortmap on Sunday 07 February 10 23:51 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
My name is Graham Keeling, and I recently visited the Hampshire Records Office to find information about my great great great grandfather and his family.
I found his marriage certificate, and the baptism certificates of his children.
Only there seems to be something very odd going on with his surname.
In places, it looks like;
'Jacob (Calling say) JKeeling'.
In other places, it looks like 'SKeeling'.
In others, it looks like 'SKeeling', with the 'S' crossed out.
Finally, there is an entry that is just plain 'Keeling'.
I would be grateful if anybody could help explain this.
The first thing to show you is the marriage certificate.
It seems to me that the mess of writing in the bottom right could shed some light, as it appears to be trying to explain something important...
Jacob (?Calling say?) ?Keeling of this Parish Bachelor
and Emmy Smith of this Parish Spinster were
Married in this church by ? ? ? ? ?
this Fifteenth Day of September in the Year One Thousand Eight Hundred
and Twelve By me William Gordon Rector
This Marriage was solemnized between Us ? ? ? ? ?some horrible mess? ? ? ? ? ? ?
in the Presence of ? ? ? ? ? ?
(http://grke.net/decipher/main.jpg)
Looks like I'm not going to get much further with this, so I'm marking it COMPLETED. :)
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Here is a slightly larger view of the bottom part of it.
(http://grke.net/decipher/larger.jpg)
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Here is the baptism record for their son...
Jacob junior is definitely referred to as plain 'Jacob Keeling' for the rest of his life, throughout the censuses.
(http://grke.net/decipher/jacob.jpg)
Edit: The forum appears to be squishing my pictures and making them look a bit blocky.
If you right-click and '.', you should get a better view.
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Another baptism...
(http://grke.net/decipher/anne.jpg)
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Another son...
(http://grke.net/decipher/james.jpg)
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And here are the final two, where it's almost down to a plain 'Keeling'. Only the 'K' looks very weird.
(http://grke.net/decipher/final.jpg)
So, thanks to anybody who can give me a clue.
As I said, I think the key lies in the marriage certificate up the top.
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Hi Graham,
Got yourself a curly one here, haven't you! ;D
Here's my take on the horrible mess on the first document (marriage cert)
Jacob + his mark (Calling say) Skeeling
Emmy + her mark Smith
S Wells?
Wm Alaster ? Howell
I agree that it does look like the words in brackets are "Calling say", and that the surname looks like "SKeeling"...very strange. I wonder if the man himself pronounced his name "Calling" but the vicar or whoever made the records thought it should be spelt "Keeling"? Is it the same parish and the same vicar all the way through?
Sorry, I don't have any real answers for you as to what this might all mean, but I hope someone else will be able to sort it out!
Cheers
Prue
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I have no idea what is going on with the surname, but I hope I can clear up one bit.
Married in this Church by Banns
Part of the mess in the bottom right corner is the area for signature by bride and groom.
It would appear they were illiterate. Hence the funny squiggle with his above it and underneath mark, same for hers.
You may find that what is written in is what the other person thought they were saying.
Kirsty
edit: what Prue said :D
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I think it is the same Rector throughout. His name appears again on at least one of the baptisms.
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Thank you both for your attempts.
I can see now 'his mark' and 'her mark', and I can see that 'Smith' is over written by 'her mark', so that's progress! :)
I have no idea what the two lines to the right of that is supposed to be.
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It almost looks to me like "Scarlett Mills" but I have no idea why it would be something like that, unless it was place of residence? Is that normal on english certificates?
Kirsty
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Oh, I can see their marks now. They are like '+' signs. :)
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Hmmm...very odd, I agree.
In any event, Jacob and Emmy (as Emma) seem to have been straightforwardly KEELING in 1841, 1861 and 1871. Have you found them in 1851?
Anna :)
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Hmmm...very odd, I agree.
In any event, Jacob and Emmy (as Emma) seem to have been straightforwardly KEELING in 1841, 1861 and 1871. Have you found them in 1851?
Anna :)
Actually, I only have the 1841 census.
I am very interested in seeing anything that you have found. :D
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No doubt you already have this extracted record from IGI, but this must be Jacob's baptism (consistent with 1861 census where he's 74 b Kingsclere):
JACOB KEELING
Baptised: 23 Dec 1787
Kingsclere, Hampshire
Parents: THOMAS KEELING & SARAH
No weird names, at baptism at least!
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Actually, I only have the 1841 census.
I am very interested in seeing anything that you have found. :D
Ah! OK then
1861 census: RG9/691/10/12
[In a long list of names at St Cross Hospital, Winchester]
Jacob KEELING Brother [of Hospital] Mar 74 Hampshire Kingsclere
Emma do Wife Mar 73 Berks Newbury
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I'm betting the vicar was new to the parish. When I was young every village had its own dialect and I should think the accents were very broad in those days making life very difficult for an incomer.
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1871 census: RG10/1209/26/43
4 St Cross Hospital
Jacob KEELING Head Mar 84 Brother of St Cross Hospital, formerly farm bailiff Hants Itchenswell
Emma do Wife Mar 85 Berks Bidden
Charlotte JAMES Daur Mar 54 Hants Chilcombe
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The reason that I got the Hampshire Records Office bits and pieces was to try to get back a bit further in history.
I have seen the 1787 Jacob Keeling baptism, but I'm yet to be convinced that it is the same one.
It seems to me that there were two Jacob Keelings at around this time. Search for deaths on freebmd:
Jun 1874: KEELING Jacob 88 Winchester
Sep 1876: Keeling Jacob 57 Alton
Mar 1877: Keeling Jacob 81 Clifton
The middle one above is my Jacob 'junior'.
The Winchester one works out as born 1786 (looks like this is your baptism record).
The Clifton one is 1796 (this matches the 1841 census that I have, which mentions one of his sons, James).
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The Clifton one is 1796 (this matches the 1841 census that I have, which mentions one of his sons, James).
But the 1871 census for the St Cross man (born Kingsclere/Itchenswell) includes daughter Charlotte b Chilcombe...
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1871 census: RG10/1209/26/43
4 St Cross Hospital
Jacob KEELING Head Mar 84 Brother of St Cross Hospital, formerly farm bailiff Hants Itchenswell
Emma do Wife Mar 85 Berks Bidden
Charlotte JAMES Daur Mar 54 Hants Chilcombe
Ooh, this one does look like 'my' Jacob, as all the other names match up.
And he comes out as being born in 1787 from that. Hmm.
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If he is your Jacob, then he seems othave come from a good sized family. If you do a parent names only search on the IGI you get 3 sisters to him, plus a whole load of submitted entries.
Kirsty
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If he is your Jacob, then he seems othave come from a good sized family. If you do a parent names only search on the IGI you get 3 sisters to him, plus a whole load of submitted entries.
Kirsty
And someone has him in an online family tree:
http://www.keelingfamily.co.uk/genealogy/individual.php?pid=I030&ged=Keeling4.GED
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Righto, I'm going to bed now, as it is way too late for me to think straight!
I hope I can clear up the spare Jacob in the morning.
Thanks for your kind help, everyone.
:d
PS. If Thomas is the father, it matches up with a massive tree I found over here:
http://keelingfamily.co.uk/genealogy/individual.php?pid=I010&ged=Keeling4.GED
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Haha! The same link!
Hopefully, I will be able to join that up with my site, which is here:
http://grke.net/cgi-bin/family.pl?id=keeling-jacob-1
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The IGI has another spelling for Keeling:
Kellian.
Interesting!
Kellian/Calling/Keeling
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/igi/individual_record.asp?recid=700061505458&lds=1®ion=2
Definitely sleep time now.
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Jacob and Emma are in separate places in 1851 (Emma has son James with her).
Refs are
Jacob (as farm bailiff in Barton Stacey): HO107/1683/48/17
Emma + James (in Winchester): HO107/1674/146/16
In both cases the handwriting is tricky - use the refs above to sidestep any mistranscriptions.
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The Clifton one is 1796 (this matches the 1841 census that I have, which mentions one of his sons, James).
But the 1871 census for the St Cross man (born Kingsclere/Itchenswell) includes daughter Charlotte b Chilcombe...
Good point - it says Kingsclere in the 1861 too. I think it must be him.
Really, really sleep time now. Get off the computer, Graham!
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Jacob KEELING Head Mar 84 Brother of St Cross Hospital, formerly farm bailiff Hants Itchenswell
I've got those censuses now, and I've found out what the St. Cross Hospital is, and it is still running!
http://www.stcross.f2s.com/
You can even still become a Brother..!
"The Scheme which governs the administration of the Hospital specifies that Brothers must normally be over sixty, no longer employed, and that preference should be given to those of low or limited income, although higher income is not a bar to entry. Emotional need is also considered. Brothers come from a wide variety of backgrounds, and are typically single, divorced or widowers. The Brothers do not belong to a religious order, but the Hospital is a Christian foundation and Brothers are expected to wear their gowns to attend morning prayers in the Church each day."
Looks like I've found somewhere else to visit. :)
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Good grief, you wouldn't believe it, but a photographer called William Savage visited the Hospital at the same time old Jacob was there!
http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/earlyphotos/g/006zzz08285ee23u00013000.html
One of these fellows, Brother James King, is in the 1871 census, in the same abode as Jacob!
I'm now frantically trawling the internet for more photos. I found a group one, but frustratingly, no names are given...
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That's fantastic! What a great picture.
Anna :)
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I've figured out that Brother King is the one behind and on the right. :)
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The book from which the picture was taken is freely available on google books and is actually quite an interesting description of exactly what life was like when you relation was there :)
Kirsty
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Yep, that was where I figured out which man was which.
Brother Piper and Brother Griffiths are listed on the 1861 census.
Griffiths is written down right next to Brother Jacob.
So unbelievably close to having a picture of him... and yet so far!
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Here's the group...
http://www.winchestermuseumcollections.org.uk/index.asp?page=item&mwsquery=%7Bcollection%7D=%7Bphotographs%7DAND%7BWord%20search%7D=%7Bcross%7D&id=315
...he must be there, I'm sure.
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Well, I'm utterly astounded at what can be turned up if you look hard enough. Time for bed.:D