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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Wiggy on Monday 08 February 10 22:29 GMT (UK)
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The story to date!! :)
Catharine Christiana McNally was the common law wife of Thomas Ransom in Hobart between about 1814 and 1829.
As so far discussed, a lack of paper trail suggests she was a free woman - either when she arrived or born free here.
A comment in a letter written, by Thomas to Lieut. Gov. George Arthur, in 1824 suggests that the partnership with Catharine was of 11 years standing - though he doesn't actually name her, the inference is strong If so, how did she arrive in Van Dieman's Land?
What we have found so far:
Possibly with John McNally in Sydney as mother of John Jnr in 1811 - either as wife or common law wife.
Did she come south to VDL with John Cummings and household in 1816? - papers mention he was bringing a John McNally and family with him.
1st appearance 1819 as un-named wife of Thomas in muster - no children in evidence.
2 Baptism record of Thomas Jnr, Dec 18th 1820 at St David's Church Hobart. She is listed as unmarried.
3 Mrs Ransom giving to Wesleyan Mission - 1823 papers
1825 Thomas and family move to Royal Oak at Green Ponds as per papers - not married.
4 Mention of Catharine being present in 1828 at alleged infringement, and then giving evidence at court case held at Royal Oak 1829.
5 Taking over licence of Royal Oak 1829.
6 Granted probate for Thomas's will Nov. 1829
7 Marriage to Frederick Von Stielitz 1830 original marriage certificate and her signature sighted.
8 Named in Martin cash's book as Chatelaine of Killymoon when he was employed there 1837.
9 Sending exhibits to exhibitions in London and Paris in 1850s.
10 Death notice, certificate and gravestone 1857 - named as Christina Stieglitz. Age at death 68 suggest birth around 1789/90.
One possible 'colonial born' girl has surfaced - though the age is a bit out. Catharine Morrison born 1793 to Archibald and Christiana Morrison in Sydney. He was a soldier and went home to England in 1809. Could Catharine have stayed , married and . . . . ?
A couple of Catharine McNallys have also been found - but getting them to Australia without being noticed is difficult! ;)
We've covered a HUGE amount of ground but are no closer to solving the mystery.
Any help gratefully received - specially if you hold the key to the puzzle!!!
Wiggy :)
Moderatror Comment: This thread is continued from here (the last post of a very long thread)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=412225.msg3001125#msg3001125
We are now at part Part 3. Pease try to add new information and not to repost everything from these 2 previous threads or we will be at part 4 before we know it. Thank You.
Part 1. Please help? RANSOM Thomas 1820: MCNALLY Catharine; AMOS T: STIEGLITZ (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,383665.0.html)
Part 2. Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,412225.0.html)
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Nice to see it started.
Checked a book on NI burials this am. most entries were way to late to be of intest and the early ones were not relevant.
Robyn
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http://adbonline.anu.edu.au/biogs/A020316b.htm
sylvia
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sylivia,
posted and examined and invesstigated in thread 1
Robyn
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Hi all,
From thread 2,
AA) Catharine Rook as early as May 1811 as crew on Perservence .... with one crew member being a James Macanally... probably he was a James McGuire, alias James McNally who had recently completed his 7 year sentence, as that chap was an experienced seaman. Names associated with the ship Perservence (Perserverance) include a Captain William ROOK ... and there's an 1817 death in Hobart of an old resident, Mrs Rook who arrived there from the penal colony of Norfolk Island (where Thomas Ransom served his convict sentence)...
BB) In 1818 VDL muster, there's a Catherine McGuire, a free woman in Hobart Town, not found in later VDL musters...
Re pt 2 The baptism of Thomas in 1820, showing Catherine as unmarried shows up on IGI extracted, surname McNally (not Ransom) ... noting NO name showing for the child's father or mother on that IGI index
Red Pt 4 the offence that Catharine attested about was in 1826 and it seems that Mr Ransom had a different bedroom to her, Catharine indicates she (Catharine) had provided accomodation for a female guest in her room (Catharine's) and Mr Ransom was in a different bedroom...
Re pt 6 The Will of Thomas Ransom (died early 1829) is online. Thomas Ransom bequeaths his estate to Catharine and in trust for HER son (not "our" or "my" son) and names them both as : Catharine Christiana McNally and Thomas McNally. The will does NOT define the relationship between himself and Catharine.
There's lots of other clues from those two very long threads ... ,
There's no evidence in the threads (over 55 pages) that Thomas Ransom was the biological father of Catharine's son, Thomas. If he was the father, he would have been about 77 years of age ::)
Cheers, JM
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Hi Sylvia,
Thanks for your interest!
Wiggy
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Hi all,
The Tas Archives has departure of seaman John Macnally from Hobart in Jan 1818, crew on the Governor Macquarie. I think he may have crewed on that ship for years ! and I recall from the 2nd thread that the James McGuire used aliases including McNally ...
The Sydney Gaz has him as crew on that vessel in August 1814 ... and that's a critical year for Wiggy's searching for Catharine ... and significantly I can find both that John Macnally and also Captain Wm Rook in port at the very same time, ie in August 1814 ...
The MACNALLY & ROOK names appear in the ONE advertisement even ... Sydney Gazette, 13 August 1814 .... Rook as captain of the Elizabeth & Mary and Macnally as previously mentioned on the Gov. Macquarie ...
There's no mention of any female crew members in that advert ...
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/628963
Cheers, JM
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Re Macnally, crew on Governor Macquarie ...
By Dec 1818, he was no longer being named as crew on that vessel ... see Syd Gazette 26 December 1818, lists crew about to depart Sydney and in same edition it notes the ship's destination ... The Derwent (but of course ;D )
Same newspaper edition also notes that Mr William Rook and the Elizabeth & Mary are in Sydney and about to depart too ...
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2178445
So, if there's a connection between Catharine Christiana McNally and/or Mr William Rook and or the sailor, Macnally ... it was perhaps broken sometime between Jan 1818 and Dec 1818 ... which may well explain why neither Catharine nor Thomas were able to rectify it ...
On the other hand, this posting does not explain how Catharine was not eligible to marry Thomas Ransom, but after his Feb 1829 death and before her marriage to Fred Von S in Jan 1830 she then became eligible ... nor does it find a father for Catharine's son, baptised in Dec 1820, Parish Records indicating birth in Nov 1820 ...
Cheers, JM
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http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=8
Information removed due to copyright violation. See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php for more details
RootsChat must deal with any breach of copyright by its members.
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sylvia
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Hi Sylvia,
390149 - is the one we are interested in - that registration is at Thomas's baptism, when she was in a relationship with Thomas Snr.
390153 is the same woman marrying but now known as Christina.
She hides well does our lady! ::)
Wiggy :)
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Sylvia's post reminded me of something I too had noticed on that link...
I remember that one of the vessels that Captain William ROOK mastered was the "Rosetta" ... and that there's an index reference on the TAO link that Sylvia supplied, that indicates a birth in 1828 of a Rosetta MCNALLY .... perhaps a candidate for the young lass that Mr Cash spotted in the 1830's ... at Catharine's property when Cash was working there ... Rosetta is an unusual name, and seems to me to point back to Captain Rook ....
David was hoping this riddle would be solved by yesterday .... Umm, well I am hoping it will be solved soon too. I think, Wiggy, you may need to obtain some certificates/records of the various indexed items on the three threads, and then sit down and put them in some kind of order (chronological by event perhaps) and figure the puzzle out ... ;)
I will be away and not near a PC for several days, (I hear many of the experienced RChatters on this board saying "Thank Goodness ;) ... in the nicest way of course.... )
Cheers, JM
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Sylvia
it's so good to have new eyes looking at this puzzle but being mindful of the moderater's request:
we are now at part Part 3. Pease try to add new information and not to repost everything from these 2 previous threads or we will be at part 4 before we know it. Thank You.
you should perhaps at least scan through the material dissected in the earlier two threads to save duplicating what has been covered and to get a grasp on the full depth of Wiggy's, Davclem and JM's research.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=412225.new;topicseen#new
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,436335.0.html
I'm left speechless by their research but enjoy following and stirring the possum with theories and ideas. We have disproved several theories and still look at others.
new ideas on what we have are what is needed to solve this.
Robyn
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Have a nice break JM -
if you only knew how many certificates etc I have to hand and how often i've looked at them and juggled them. Still obtaining more and looking, looking, looking.
the comment about Rosetta McNally is interesting - worth a follow up!
Wiggy
Edit - Forgot - Anne was older; 22 in 1840. Rosetta won't do! See old thread.
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Hi there,
Just a thought ... remember Jane Spencer's reference to Mrs Ransom, in the Sydney Gaz of Thursday 25 August 1825. Jane's advertisement includes the following .... I was advised by my mistress, Mrs Ransom ...."
I have at hand a 1911 Concise Oxford Dictionary, so I looked up 'mistress' (yes, I have books printed earlier than that) .... there's 7 meanings listed there in that edition. And I have understood that this dictionary was organised so that the most usual meaning was listed first, and the least usual was listed last ...
mistress n
1. Woman in authority over servants; female head of household
no mention of any sexual relationship between unmarried couples until meaning no. 4.
7. (As title) see MRS. (so I did !)
MRS. n Title prefixed to surname of married woman who has no superior title; Abbr of MISTRESS ...
My point being that "Mrs. Ransom" is the name that others used when referring to Catharine, but so far, after all the many pages of these threads, there's no sighting of either Thomas or Catharine actually referring to Catharine as Mrs Ransom. In 1828 attestment papers for the 1826 incident,Catharine used the surname McNally (see first thread) .... When in 1820, Thomas born Nov 1820 was baptised in Dec 1820, Catharine used the surname McNally .... And in the 1829 will, Thomas simply chose not to explain the relationship at all , but he called her McNally ....
Does it not thus follow that there was NO common law wife/husband relationship ... It is entirely possible that she was employed by him as the Woman in authority over the servants.
I would be interested to read a transcript of the entire letter that Thomas Ransom wrote to Gov Arthur about the issues affecting his publican's licence in 1825 .... particularly in comparing the various rules / regulations as administered by the various "regimes" in VDL and in respect of the various changes to those regulations. The impediment was not causing the issue for his licence under previous annual reviews .. The impediment occured the same year that Thomas was transferred to VDL ....
Wiggy, what's the information on the certificates and etc that you have at hand and have been juggling specifically for the year 1814 .... perhaps the key to your puzzle is found within those certificates ...
Wiggy, so your edit to the post about Rosetta .... does that mean you already have a copy of the TAO file on that birth, and also that you are dismissing ALL of the references to your very own Catharine from the Cash story ... see your point 8 on your summary on this very thread ... Ummmmmm ::)
Must go,
Cheers, JM
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Robyn, Re post 11, don't forget your own very considerable contribution to the research on this topic!!
Wiggy
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McNalty Catherine Middlesex 17 09 1806 ENGLAND ... ...
just in case
sylvia
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Sorry Sylvia, ;)
You are just going to have take Robyn's advice (post 11) and set aside a day or two to read over the previous threads - 'we've been everywhere man' (or woman in your case!) Well nearly everywhere! Those experts helping me been pretty thorough!
She is there somewhere though!!
Wiggy :D
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Hi there,
I'm using a wireless connection, at present. I think I have FOUND something very significant at the TAO link that Sylvia reminded us about...
1. On the summary at page 1 of one of those threads, Wiggy notes that she has the death certificate for the death in 1829 of Thomas, but that it shows he was a widower, and his spouse was a Sarah Stanfield with 15 un-named children, and of Killymoon, Fingal, VDL .... errr ... its near where Thomas Ransom's rural licence operated when he died .... ;D
We've obtained T. RANSOM death certificate, (but no parents named, no wife named, no children named.) The dates do match though!! He was a widower and he had 15 children!! His wife was Sarah Stanfield and they lived at Killymoon near Fingal, Tasmania.
2. Captain William ROOK has been cited frequently by David and by Moi and among the vessels for him are the Rosetta which was later renamed the Prince Leopold upon its purchase by the order of Lachlan Macquarie.
3. At the TAO archives index online, there's a Daniel Stanfield departure on the Prince Leopold out of Hobart 12 August 1819, to PJ.
So, errr.... who was Daniel Stanfield ? .... who were his parents ? Was he one of the un-named children of Sarah, who was the WIFE of Thomas Ransom .... Was that Sarah the WIFE mentioned for Thomas Ransom in the VDL 1819 wife ...
How else is Daniel Stanfield connected to a) Thomas Ransom (perhaps Daniel's father or step-father) b) William Rook (his captain on the vessel Prince Leopold in 1819)
And of course, can Wiggy find the names for the rest of Sarah Stanfield's children ..... And also, when did Sarah Stanfield, wife of T Ransom, DIE ... perhaps SHE was the prying eyes ::)
Cheers, I so hope my wireless connection works ;D
JM
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Hi Sylvia,
The lass from that trial of 1806, she was still in NSW in 1825, her transportation papers showing she was wife of a Michael Mcnalty ("ux" on her records), same info on various musters in NSW but I'm not sure where she was in 1828 ....
Fresh eyes are great, but please may I also encourage you to read back through the threads ,
;D Perhaps all of us need to read back through ;D, and make separate draft check lists to avoid duplication searchings ::) .... Then perhaps Wiggy can prioritise the combined check list, to then post separate, specific requests for each piece of information that she cannot sort out, or cannot research for herself ..
Many cheers,
JM
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JM,
I reread those pages Thomas Ransom and Sarah Standfield = Thomas McNally and his wife and 15 children. No rely # 8 first thread wiggy's res[onse
Yep - all correct so far! Those Ransom children are the offspring of Thomas Junior. t Thomas senior;
Robyn
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Hi Robyn,
I think there's two generations of STANFIELD in VDL on or before 1819 .... I think Wiggy's #8 reply was in reply to a query about Catharine Christiana McNally's daughter's marriage and subsequent children ...
If you get a chance, online newspapers, search for Daniel Stanfield in early 1820's .... there's Daniel Stanfield Snr, Daniel Stanfield Jnr, Thomas Ranfom (ie old style for "s') all with grain for the gov. stores all mentioned in same advertisements, there's a mill, there's court cases involving Stanfield and a government official, and marriage for a daughter named Sarah Stanfield, I'm of the view that Catharine Christiana McNally's background was never the impediment, after all, she married less than twelve months after Thomas Ransom's death ....
I won't have a chance to check further, I'm at my aged in-laws with a list of urgent chores to attend to ...
Do you think my suggestion of a check list and for Wiggy to prioritise and etc would be sensible ....
Cheers, JM
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Robyn is correct - the death certificate was for Thomas Junior and was 1904. Sarah Stanfield was his wife and daughter of Daniel Stanfield Junior. D. Snr arrived in Aust in 1788 and in VDL in 1804. And yes I have all the children's names of T 2. All present and correct. Sarah died in an accident in 1890.
Wiggy
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Hi all,
Been reading back over two very long threads and once again I need to say a very big thank you to all who have been and are still contributing to the search for my Gx3 grandmother - I am very grateful to you all, specially Robyn JM and David who have been there almost from the beginning. Haven't said it lately but I think it often!
Thanks folks!
Wiggy
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Hi there,
Back on this wireless thingy ... ;D Thanks Wiggy for your thanks...
Solved a minor mystery for you re Thomas Ransom mention (one first thread) re two bricks, one man, and a librarian who said no record of Boat Builder...
He built the schooner "Hunter" when on Norfolk Island. He received half yearly payments from VDL Govt office for his position as Superintendent of Boat Builder, .... its in the newspapers ... ten to twelve pounds regular around 1819, 1820 ... and he was the Superintendent when VDL purchased the "Prince Leopold" for use in Hobart Town 1819 ... they paid twelve hundred pounds and thirteen shillings ...
See Friday 20 October 1826 Colonial Times etc for the cutting re the vessel he built on Norfolk Island...
See Hobart TG Saturday 19 June 1819 for example of Superintendent of Boat Builder, and for purchase of the Prince Leopold, and for delivery of fresh meat by Thomas for Govt Stores...
Re Fresh Meat deliveries .... also noticing a Catherine KEARNEY (say this name in full, aloud ... could be Catharine McNally ;D ) delivering fresh meat from as early as January 1818 ...
Wiggy, would you please consider if the suggestion for a check list etc would help.... sharing the load... and also please consider listing the certificates/documents you already have on either Catharine Christiana McNally, her son Thomas, or daughter Ann, or on Thomas Ransom (Snr).
Otherwise, I can see this thread developing into another long thread, which must seem to any RChatter to be daunting task to even consider to join your efforts to find your Catharine,
Cheers, JM
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Umm...
Catherine Kearney ... arrived on the Marquis Cornwallis, under a seven year sentence, in 1796 ... She had several known alias' and she spent time on Norfolk Island ::)... an online search shows a researcher has "lost" her in Hobart by 1830 ... I mention this as it is same year that Catharine Christiana McNally married Fred ::)
Aliases include McKearman, McKearnan. Several relationships, including one with a chap surnamed WILSON (an alias noted on second thread as one used by James McGuire) and including one in 1808 on Norfolk Island (but not with Thomas Ransom) ... She was tried at Philliptown (King County Ireland) ... On VDL muster 1811 as Catherine Kearney at Hobart Town .. TAO shows her as arriving VDL from NI in March 1808 on the Lady Nelson...
Err.... so that's at least one Catherine Mc from Ireland to NSW, to NI, to VDL ... and err... judging by her age, she may have fibbed to Fred ... she could be plus 40 when Thomas was baptised in 1820 ... (or perhaps a printer's error in the newspaper Friday 21 August 1857 ;D )
Cheers, Happy Hunting ;D
JM
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Morning Team,just an update, no breakthroughs!
I have posted a response to Pam Fogerty on Wiggy's West Indies thread enquiring about her GGG3 Rosetta McNally- there appears a link between McNally-Rook- Rosetta ( being the ship of William Rook in 1816 per Colonial Secretary Index) that must be significant.
We also have Catherine Rook born 1793 at Millbrook, Southampton (cf Millbrook property of Catherine McNally/Ransom/Stieglitz) and Rostta Rook born 1841 at Chalton Hampshire, who seem to be the same family( see previous posts).
I have logged every William Rook Sydney Gazette reference 1803-1826 and researched several of the ships eg Rosetta, Perseverance, Gov Macquarie, Elizabeth and Mary, and sealing and whaling in general- no further clues there, but curious that no mention in Gazette of the supposed death in 1825 of the 'well known ' Captain William Rook of frostbite on the Prince of Denmark. I have asked Mitchell library about him and expect reply in next 10 days
David
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Wiggy,
Wasn't Catherine Kearney another of your G3s? David
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Source “The Aboriginal/Settler Clash in VDL 1803-1831 NJB Plomley
Incidents reported 1804-1831, which relevantly include
December 1827 Shannon River Mrs Ransome Hut plundered
19 March 1828 Clyde River region Mrs Ransome with 2 armed servants came upon natives making spears who fled when fired upon
20 October 1828 GreenPonds near Mrs Ransome’s, hut plundered 15-20 natives , pursued,some killed , whiteman(Green?) with them, Mrs Landford speared, ditto son John, dau killed
24 October 1828 Abyssinia Marsh McNeilly ( and Espie) servant Wm Parr speared, natives also visited Capt Woods hut but repulsed
12 November 1828 Shannon, Ransome ,hut plundered
9 November 1830 Sawyers Hill, Dysart Parish, Stieglitz, sawyer and splitter, hut plundered
There she is, Mrs Ransome, Ransome, McNeilly and Stieglitz, and these are only the relevant references, out of 46 close set foolscap pages of 'interaction"between 'natives' and "settlers", a very substantial proportion in her neck of the woods- first it was the bandittii then the clashes, puts her daily life into another perspective .
David
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Hi all,
Hoping there's a reply for David's posting on the West Indies thread ;D Italians to Ireland ... yep, the late 1700's and early 1800's ... there's masses of peoples moving around the globe, tis a very interesting period of exploration, colonisation, warfares, revolutions, social/economic reform, religious missionary zeal, and of course, development of literacy/numeracy and industrialisation.
Catherine Kearney, Roger Gavin.
On NSW Col Sec Papers under Roger Gavin it indicates that from 1819 - 1823 he was owing quit rents for land in the Districts of Ulva and Staffa ... perhaps he was not exactly welcome at Catherine Kearney's Hobart Town dairy. I mention this as Thomas McNally was baptised in Dec 1820 at Hobart. I note that the Catherine Kearney's dairy and the Carpenters Arms/Joiners Arms (re Thomas Ransom, Snr) were very near by to each other . I note that Catherine Kearney is found on the Muster Records, while Catherine McNally ihas not yet been found on them.
Could it be that Roger Gavin was the "prying eyes" for raising the impediment in Thomas Ransom's publican's licence in 1825. He had dispute with Col Authorities over the enclosing of a "road" frontage to that dairy, perhaps around that same period. Court case was finally "non suited" in 1831.
I'm wondering about the headstone at St David's in Hobart for a Catherine Kearney (1831), and note that her will was proved within weeks of the burial. She made her "X" mark.
I cannot find Catherine Kearney in newspapers after April 1820 apart from one advertisement with Roger Gavin's name also mentioned. I cannot find Mrs Ransom in newspapers before 1823.
Err 1814 ...(11 years before 1825, and the impediment issue ... that's the year Thomas Ransom settled in VDL ... Kearney and Gavin were moved off NI in 1808 ...
Current thoughts .... Catherine Kearney may have a further alias .... McNally.or perhaps she had a baby girl in about 1795/6 born at NI to a McNally ie ... and err .... Catherine Kearney may have been mother of Catharine Christiana McNally.
I also note that Catharine Christiana McNally. after her marriage to Fred (1830) was known as Christiana, and not as Catharine,while Catherine Kearney was only known as Catherine.
I have not found death of Roger Gavin, but he was living on 15 Jan 1830 for the court case in Hobart. He is on my list as possible former spouse for Catharine Christiana, or maybe he was CC McN's step-father ...
Cheers, JM
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JM,
massive amount of research, but surely if Catherine Kerney has gravestone in Hobart in 1831, she's not our gal who has her own gravestone in 1857 at Cullenswood as Stieglitz.
David
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Da,
Suggested that our CMcN may be her daughter
Current thoughts .... Catherine Kearney may have a further alias .... McNally.or perhaps she had a baby girl in about 1795/6 born at NI to a McNally ie ... and err .... Catherine Kearney may have been mother of Catharine Christiana McNally.
very reasonable theory I would think but researching it may prove difficult.
If she had a daughter then
1] known to assoicate with a WIilson also used as on of the McGuire/McNally alias
2]age would be around right for CCMcN
3] proximity to Ransom is a positive
4] CCMcN would be colonial born not a convict and perhaps no record of her birth etc
However no explanation for the impediment in this theory.
Question is Cathereine Kearney listed on teh musters with children?
Robyn
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Hi there,
Perhaps the impediment was simply that Catharine Christiana McNally had been born on NI to Catherine Kearney and that CC McN's reputed father was known only to Catherine Kearney, until in 1814 someone in the VDL settlement noticed a remarkable likeness between Thomas Ransom and the lass, by then aged around 18 years of age who may have been crew on vessels arriving and departing Hobart. Remember that Thomas Ransom was the superintendent of boat builders at that time. Now that would be an impediment to any marriage between Thomas Ransom and Catharine Christiana McNally. That scenerio neatly explains away why CC McN is not on any of the musters, (always at sea !) and also explains why the impediment was not of CC McN's making but why it was of Thomas Ransom's making. And, frees CC McN to marry Fred less than 12 months after Thomas Ransom's death ....
That scenerio also explains why Wiggy has oral history suggesting Thomas McNally was Thomas Ransom's son... I think this scenerio would support the concept that Thomas McNally MAY have been Thomas Ransom's grandson ... It also offers a very sensible reason why Thomas Ransom's 1829 will benefits only Catharine Christiana McNally and her son Thomas, and explains why there's newspaper cuttings referring to CC McN as "Mrs Ransom"...
I agree that it would be somewhat difficult to research a Norfolk Island birth from those early decades ... however, there's several Kearney births on Norfolk Island on the TAO online with birth place Norfolk Island circa 1793, 1798 etc ... Spotted William Kearney, who could be the same William Kearney along with Catherine Kearney supplying fresh meat to Hobart in around 1818 etc
Cheers, JM
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If she was Thomas daughter by Catherine Kearney, why don't they acknowledge her as such, Miss Ransom- because Roger Gavin would go ballistic? What differnce legally is there in willing your property to a bastard child of your own to the bastard child of somebody else (catherine x Mcnally?)
We have the Amos/Cummings theory, the morrison scenario, the Rook possibility and now the Kearney case.
Irene Schaffer is the one to consult on NI families
David
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;D
Hi David,
Perhaps the difference was simply that children born out of wedlock were thus not "inheritors" per sec ... I am suggesting that at 77 Thomas Ransom was too old to be the reputed father of CC McN's son. I am suggesting that he was NOT too old to be the reputed father of CC McN and thus the grandfather of Thomas McNally.
I think I may have found a possible father for Thomas McNally... (Thanks to my In-Laws, who are fascinated by this thread and by the internet in general)...
Online newspapers, Saturday 1 January 1820, HTG, suppliers of fresh meat to the Govt Stores .... (mentions Roger Gavin as well),
JAMES M'NALLY to deliver 750 lbs due the week commencing 18 March 1820, .... nine months after that, there's a baptism in Hobart for Thomas McNally....
;D
Cheers, must go, farm chores here at inlaws... some cattle issues ! JM
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Well done the family! I had not found the contract notice, but Thelma MCKay 'Index to early land grants VDL 1804-1823" does list John McNally as 60 acres at Melville and James McNally as 50 acres at Launceston- these two playing Tweedledum and Tweedledee again,( the Boddington Boys) because it is Melville which is in the New Norfolk area, near Hobart, which should be John supplying to the commissary, not James. From memory I followed these up, and came to no satisfactory conclusion- i think that there was a transfer or swop of grant for one near Launceston, but would need to check. It does again indicate the existence of Mcnallys in VDL at the time, which is why i keep returning to the Cummings scenario and the Boddington boys at Port Jackson, and the absconding of Ann Cummings and the Thomas Amos connection, but , yes, was there a Mcnally hut/dwelling in melville c 1819/1821?
David
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And
Don't overlook that 1818 Catherine McGuire, free woman at Hobart .... I think this would be CC McN, there for possible birth of Ann, who also married a Stieglitz ... there's that James McGuire, alias McNally, ex Fortune/Alexander 1806, with Catharine Mac... on the Perserverence May 1811 out of PJ with that James as crew, and Rook as Master etc ... I would be more inclinded towards the Fortune/Alexander MCNALLY over the Boddington ... ;D
But, at least there's now a possible father for Thomas McNally ;D regardless of which ship "fetched" that candidate to VDL ;D
My inlaws continue to be fascinated, so I will try to find further info about that Jan 1820 sighting of the fresh meat suppliers (Gavin and McNally especially),
Also, on first thread, around reply #86, VDLStories, .... I recall that CC McN (as Mrs Ransom) had her own bedroom, with a guest for it in 1826, and by inference (or perhaps stated, not sure) Mr Ransom had his own (separate) bedroom, which suggests to me that there was no common-law marriage between TR and CC McN, thus again supporting the notion that CC McN may have been his daughter. Also, not sure, BUT , I think the "title" MISS was not used, except for "higher classes, without that "stain" (horrid word) of any convict connections.
I can well imagine that Roger Gavin would "ballastic" issues ... have prying eyes in 1825 .... Perhaps young (5 year old) Thomas McNally's face would be known to Gavin and he would see Catherine Kearney's features there ... ;D
Cheers,
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Hi All,
Roger Gavin was dobbed to the police by his step-son, William Kearney ... (William is a possible half-brother to CC McN, the lass in the topic of this thread). In the court at Gavin's hearing, there's Catherine Kearney ...
Gavin (by then a police constable) was sprung (by William Kearney) harbouring an escaped female convict ... To me, William Kearney has found his own way to repay his step-father for any "wrongs" ... perhaps one of which was a prying eyes dob by Constable Gavin to Gov Arthur's administration regarding Thomas Ransom's impediment...
Saturday 17 June 1826 HTG ... very interesting article... (note Gavin was a pound keeper at Coal River in early 1819, perhaps that leads to his constable status in 1825 or earlier, not sure, and I think that would be a definite side track, off this thread's topic)
Cheers, JM
EDIT TO ADD, Roger Gavin appointed a Police Constable 29 April 1824, announced in HTG 30 April 1824 ... now that gives him a) motive, and , b) opportunity to be the source of the PRYING EYES dobber .... and c) when Thomas Ransom gets his licence for his new hotel The Roual Oak, then Gavin has "failed" s Gavin then acts outside the law himself, to d) Feb 1826, hides a female convict, and so e) CCMC N's brother DOBS on their step-father, ...... crime never pays ;D
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•Back to McGuire- I found this note in my file- have i missed something in past posts about this?
Certificate of Emancipation for James McQuire, alias McNally issued 1 May 1811. ?
David
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may 1811 TOL Mcguire allias Mcnally was also date of Peserverance with James Mcanally alias Wilson , with Catherine Rooke aboard: James Mcnally per Marquis Cornwall absent from records since 1806 David
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Hi David,
•Back to McGuire- I found this note in my file- have i missed something in past posts about this?
Certificate of Emancipation for James McQuire, alias McNally issued 1 May 1811. ?
David
That's the sailor on the same voyage as Catherine , out on the Perserverance later in month of May 1811... that's the chap ex Fortune/Alexander, pilotage chap at Newcastle before obtaining his CE ... I've checked the image of the arrival, and I mentioned that late on second thread, it's NOT a capitalised "Q", (ie looks nothing like the number 2 handwritten), its definitely a lower case "g" or "q", and other images show it to be "g". Its McQuire in printed text, perhaps by virtue of a transcriber not recognising that Mcguire was a surname, and presuming it ought to be McQuire
I've spotted him again I think, James Macanally at PD, supplying wheat to the stores, Saturday 23 March 1822 HTG ...
From here in 21st century NSW, albeit, I am currently on a farm in central west. with my inlaws, first settled early 1820's ... with unsawn timber sheds in background view, I feel this could be the KEY to the solution to Wiggy's puzzle ... ;D
Cheers, JM
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Re James McNally per Boddington
Found him in NSW "seaman" 7 years expired 1799 noting this 1817 NSW Muster shows he arrived Boddington, tried Dublin, Feb 1792.
Cheers, JM .... not sure if that helps or hinders with the search for CC McN ... but I'm sure David will find it interesting ;D
EDIT to add, found same chap on 1820 NSW muster, same info, "in the colony", "seaman"
Further Edit to add, found same chap on 1821 NSW muster, exact same info, as first edit and he is also on NSW muster 1818, same info, seaman.... Did he return to PJ especially for the Musters ;D
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the following is in the Tasmanian Archives Office "Departures" index
'John MacNally, seaman, 28 January 1818, from Hobart,per" Governor Macquarie", to Port Dalrymple and Port Jackson"
A John, not a James, quite regularly on Governor Macquarie
David
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;D
But alas, NO sighting for a John McNally, ex Boddingtons on any NSW Musters ... Umm, wonder at which point along the coast on the many voyages of that vessel, in that decade that MCNALLY, the seaman changed his papers over to read James or John.... ::) perhaps he had two sets of clothing, one for the trip down the coast, (as James) and another for the trip up, as John.
David, ;) I now understand the Tweedledum references ... ;D .... Seems to me to be the SAME seaman ... perhaps HE had a sense of humour ... Can you find either of them on any VDL musters for ships in port at HT or PD etc ...
Cheers, JM
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Conditional Pardon 1 Jan 1814 to James Mcguire on NSW State Archives ;) There's that 11 years that Thomas Ransom wrote about in reference to his Publican's licence !
Wiggy, I think you should consider ordering a photocopy of that document, by snail mail or online (you will need plastic card) .... it should have full description, listing any known alias' names, his year of birth, his place of birth, date of arrival, name of ship he came on, etc. I think there's a possibility that he may have been CC McN's relative or perhaps he was Thomas McNally's father ...
On the second thread, towards the end of the posts, I posted the details about ordering by snail mail from NSW records .... you can order up to 5 files, at a time, the fee includes admin and postage, so the first file is (from memory) around $25, but the next 4 are around $1.50 each.
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/quicksearch.aspx and http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/keyname_search.asp
for example, consider ordering at the same time, the Certificate of Emancipation for James McQuire, alias James McNally issued May 1811 ... it should also have similar info to the Conditional Pardon, so you can compare and notice similarities or differences.
Cheers, JM
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Phew!! Hard to keep up with all your activity! I am watching though! Got nothing new to add!
Wiggy
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;D, David,
You mentioned James McNally on the Cornwallis .... (edit to add, err...... isn't that the same voyage as Catherine Kearney ;D ;D who had a number of alias' read on, )
I presume this would be him :
Re a James McNally on the Cornwallis (Marquis Cornwallis 1796, ) , ... there were two convicts surnamed McNally on that voyage.
James, who with former convictions was sentenced to 14 years transportation for cow stealing, trial at Trim Meath Co.
AND,
Maria McNally who was aged 22 on her arrival, ie born circa 1774. She was tried at Dublin in 1795. I've NOT found any indication that she had any children or a husband etc before she left Ireland. An online site has her married in NSW in 1796, to a Thomas Moxon, and that she died in 1818 at Windsor. I have NOT found any NSW BDM online index references to support that. (I haven't even found Thomas Moxon)... edit to add ... is this actually Catherine Kearney ;D
http://members.tip.net.au/~ppmay/convicts.htm ... I have often found that site to be reliable, and in previous years I have contacted them and asked for further information about one or two of the names listed there, and met with prompt reply and references to check, and thus I have been able to continue researching my own Irish lines. I note this because on the entry for James McNally,under Remarks it says " Left colony 1806 previous Irish charge & trial details available "
Cheers,
JM
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Hi all,
Re David's post Reply #27 from Wednesday 10 February ... Well found David ...
I notice there's "Mrs R ...." (CC McN) but no mention of "Mr ...." (Thomas Ransom) .... So, err ... Was the Royal Oak Inn (Sorrell Inn) etc a "hut" or was it a larger establishment .... (and thus who lived at the hut and who lived at the Royal Oak ;D or were these both actually one and the same address . .... I'm not from that district, so I don't know ...
And who was where on 24 October 1828 when McNeilly and servant were speared .... Where were Thomas Ransom or Catharine Christiana McNally in October 1828, where was young Thomas McNally ... was he ever speared ....
I think that ALL the (possible, probable, likely etc) sightings on the three threads need to be put into a chronological order, in a couple of instances, day by day even ... to make sure we are finding the jigsaw pieces for the right puzzles... Then (I'm presuming) Wiggy, who started the threads could have a better picture of this involved saga .... and it could be "driven" by Wiggy ... I feel this thread is turning out to be another that will develop into very long thread .... so much of what I have posted on these three threads, is readily available online at free to search sites... ;), or in some of those good reference books that David regularly cites .... It is quite a chore to have to check back through so many pages to confirm that the information being posted is not duplicating an earlier post ... I try to be diligent with that task...
Anyways, at the moment, I'm trying to find where CC McN was in Oct 1828 ... I thought she was signing attestment papers or giving witness in court re that Mrs Owens incident that vdlstories quoted back on thread 1 .... I notice that no-one has posted any comments about Mrs Ransom and Mr Ransom having separate bedrooms in the Royal Oak .... would that be in the HUT ;D ...
I'd really like a list of things to chase up, rather than making my own "to do" list on this searching for McNally, Catharine Christiana... ;D
Cheers, JM
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Oh no, the Royal Oak was not a hut- in addition to the description in the Hermit of VDL, and the description in the report of the Land Commissioners,there is a description by a diarist, Mrs Reid I believe, eulogising the comfort of the inn and the skills and personality of our Catherine- all circa 1826-1829- need to check
Not a hut- and still there
david
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The Royal Oak is quite a substantial building at Green Ponds / modern day Kempton. My reading of the blacks incidents is that the huts were probably shepherds or cattlemens huts, as they are quite a distance from Green Ponds if I am reading my map correctly - I also note that the huts belonged to the Ransoms - there is only one instance where Mrs Ransom seems to have actually been present - maybe I'm being pedantic - but I am a bit pedantic - that's how I am. and here's some more pedantry for you :D
Re the court case and Catherine's witness statements: I've just been back to check
Julia transcribed:
1. He "Followed me into the bedroom where I was" - she does not say into my bedroom. Catherine is an Innkeeper - surely she could have been checking other bedrooms - (as in the one where Mrs Owens was going to sleep for example.)
2. "She sleeps with me" - could easily be interpreted as 'She stays in this house' - not necessarily she sleeps in my bedroom - in fact I believe the latter is highly unlikely.
3. "I left the room and came downstairs. Mr Ransom was in the room" - I believe she is talking about the parlour - or whatever common room they were all in - it doesn't say in his bedroom.
The only place I can find where Mrs Ransom seems to be sleeping alone is in the newspaper article on January 19 1828 when there is a description of Mrs Ransom repelling bushrangers. (Even then it doesn't say Mr Ransom was not there - but in this case that is certainly the inference, as she had to wait for other servants to come to her aid.) There are several reasons why she might not be sharing a room with Thomas at this particular time - none of which indicate that she was not in a relationship with him.
to your requests JM, for a list of what I have for certain -
1 I have the certificate/image for Thomas 2's baptism - there is no birth registration.
2. There is no record of either baptism or birth of Anne that we've been able to find - neither have Tas. Archives staff.
3. I have certificate for Catharine's marriage with Frederick Von Stieglitz.
4. I have Catharine's death certificate.
5. I have Thomas 2's marriage certificate.
6. I have seen Anne's marriage registration in the Archives.
7. I have a photo of Catharine's gravestone.
8. I have Thomas 1's will and Thomas 2's will.
9. I have Sarah's death inquest report - wife of Thomas 2.
ErrorSPAM
REPORT THIS POST AS SPAM (Use 'Report to Moderator'). DO NOT CLICK ON ANY LINKS IN THIS POST. DO NOT REPLY TO THIS PERSON.
]I do not have Thomas 1's death certificate yet but I do have the obit from the paper for him and it is quite long and detailed.
I have photos of Daniel StanfieldSnr's grave memorial with all the rest of the first fleeters - from St David's park in Hobart - also on same memorial are Thomas Ransom Edward Kimberley, Mary Kimberley (Nee Cavanaugh) - the last three all convict who'd been pardoned but arrived in VDL via Norfolk Island, and who belong to our family - (as do the Stanfields (who were not convicts)
[/color]
Wiggy :D Hope this list helps!!
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Hi All, especially Robyn ;D
Pte James McAnally, of the 46th Regiment on foot, indexed as on a pay list in 1815 in VDL. The 46th Regiment relieved the 73rd in February 1814. The 46th Regiment was in turn relieved by the 48th in Sept 1817. Then the 46th Regiment went off to Madras ... (ie James McAnally may well have left VDL with his regiment, but without his camp follower ;D ) or perhaps he may have absconded from his regiment and stayed in VDL .
The impediment arose in 1814, as that is of course eleven years earlier than 1825 ...
I am sure that Robyn will not be at all surprised with this find, .... Robyn has asked if perhaps CC McN was a ... "camp follower"
You can find the index that I found, via the Australian Resources Board here at Rchat ....
Clue : Remember that VDL was not a separate colony until 1825. Therefore, Soldiers information may well be found on one of the NSW resources ... and thus I searched the INDEXES of the Databases at http://www.sag.org.au (Society of Australian Genealogists). There is a fee of around ten or so dollars to obtain all the information on that database about that soldier. . . . ;)
Has anyone read the book first printed in London in 1824 ... The book by Edward Curr. He mentions runaway soldiers living in the woods in VDL sometimes for up to 3 years... 1817, the regiment left VDL, add 3 years ...Thomas McNaly was baptised. If you are soldier runaways, then you don't report to the annual Musters ... ;D The title of the book ... "An account of the colony of VDL....
Over to you Wiggy, to go through the resources again, on those links provided by Rootschat .
Cheers, JM
edit to add, IN 1820, via HMS Coromandel at detachment of the 46th, escorted convicts to VDL ... would be interesting to see when they arrived .... ;)
Further edit, the 46th Regiment served in the WEST INDIES ... back in the right time frame for CC MCN's birth 46th regiment 1779-1792 - The Caribbean - Capture of St. Eustatius
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Hi there,
On the IGI extracted, theres a marriage 12 August 1786 at St Marys, Portsea, Hants, of Catherine ROOK and John McCallay. David may be able to figure out IF that lass could be connected to Captain William ROOK, of NI and of various vessels in the South Seas to around 1827ish... Perhaps this is the Catherine Rook from the Perserverance in PJ in 1811 crewing along with that chap of many aliases ... including McGuire, McNally, Wilson etc. (he had so many that there's notices in the Syd Gazette listing letters waiting and then Dead Letters in the Post Office from around 1810 and a year or so later ......
I also spotted a submitted entry on IGI, so I stress that submitted entries are often not reliable. It shows a birthdate of 8 September 8 Sept 1823 and a baptism of October 1823 (noting no date in October) for Ann McGuire, with father names as Thomas McGuire, and mother as Catherine. The baptism apparently occurred "Buckingham" Tasmania. My thoughts would be this may be Ann as in CCMcN's daughter ... remembering Martin Cash noted the girl was younger than Thomas (McNally)... Perhaps a check of the parish records for Ann McGuire's baptism at say St Davids (or the church where Thomas McNally's was performed by Rev'd Knopwood ;D
HMS Coromandel with that 46th detachment escorting convicts to VDL in 1820 .... errr its arrival is on the newspaper site .... twas in port at same time as Prince Leopold (was Captain Rook the Master on the PL at that time ?) Coromandel in HT during March, April etc 1820 .... :D :D :-X :-X
When searching for a possible Carribean birth/baptism for CC McN don't forget to check and find the then names for the islands in the West Indies ... ;) Wiggy, in case the excitment levels are raised at your PC, here's a link to the IGI for searching for her possible birth... http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp
;D I was up around dawn this morning, farm issues of course... I've got fingers crossed that these jigsaw pieces will make sense to Wiggy's oral history.... ;D
Cheers, JM
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Anne said she was 22 when married in 1840 and she was 75 at death on 1 Oct 1892! I checked the St David's records forward and backwards several years, while I had the chance in Hobart!
Wiggy
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Hi there,
a) When you were at St David's were you actively looking for McGuire ;) .... I'm noticing the first names of her parents, the use of the alias surname that is associated with McNally, and that the surname offered by the submitter starts with Mc (as in CC Mc N ::) I'm gently suggesting that perhaps you ought to contact the same place you got Thomas McNally's record, and ask them for similar pages for the 3rd & 4th quarters of 1823 ;D ....
;D Also, do remember please many lasses put their ages up so they could marry without seeking parental permission.... AND the information on death certificates is only as good as the then current knowledge of the person giving it. If the informant was a close family member, they were giving it at a time of grief, perhaps saying "I think ......" or "About .....". This happens even today, and the person (doctor/undertaker etc) recording the information is not responsible for checking the accuracy of the information they are given. ;) You believe Thomas Ransom was Thomas McNally's Dad .... so why not consider that there's a pointer for that 1823 baptism for Ann Mc ...., daughter of Thomas and Catherine .... Wiggy, you believe he fathered a son at age 77, why couldn't he father a daughter at 80 .... particularly , as you indicate, you can show that they had the same bedroom... ;)
b) It may well be that the chap transported on the Fortune/Alexander, and emancipated in May 1811 got to where-ever the recruiting officers were for the 46th by 1813, and was one of the Shan-hai-ed enlistments, and thus returned to VDL .... (yes, recruiting officers did collect the odd new recruits from the pubs near their docked ship, yes, they sometimes clobbered them over the head, and errrr, yes, I have forebears in the Royal Navy, in this very time frame who may well have turned a blind eye when their ratings rounded up new recruits... :o )
c) who were the witnesses for Ann's marriage, and also who were the witnesses for CCMc N's .... both married the brothers Stieglitz ...
d) have you started to look for the baptism of CC Mc N within that timeframe in the West Indies .... ;D
Cheers, JM
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JM,
Re Post 50- brilliant- how did I miss that!- a Catherine Rook marrying a John McAllay in Hampshire in 1786- of course there isn't the perfect following record in the IGI, but we shall trawl ,looking for Catherine Mc(N)allay born 1789 dau of Catherine Rook and John Mc(N)allay. then the game would become interesting.
David
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Had a quick look in the IGI with out luck, but you may have better success.
Robyn
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CATHERINE ROOK
Chr 5 OCT 1766 Saint Marys Portsea Hampshire Father HUGH ROOK
============================================
John McCallay Marriage 12 AUG 1786 St Mary's Portsea Hampshire
catherine rook
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Catherine Rook
Christening 24 JAN 1793 St Mary Southampton Hampshire
Father John Rook
Mother Catherine
family search
sylvia
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WOW :D
WOW :D
WOW :D
:) :) this is the benefit of fresh eyes and input :) :)
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Hi all,
It could be that Catherine Rook and James McGuire's possible baby girl was born a) at sea, b) in the West Indies or c) on Continental America .... perhaps he was a) Royal Navy or b) soldier anyways, around the time Britain was at war with her colonies and with the French for control of the plantations where the slaves that Great Britain was transporting to the SUGAR growing areas worked. St Kitts, any of the Carribean Islands. ..... James McGuire's info on the Peter Maybery website indicates he had previous convictions and the records are extant and can be made available. .... perhaps a deserter ... hence 14 years for stealing a cow (ie previous convictions taken into consideration at the sentencing).
If the MCGUIRE=ROOK had a daughter (possibly named Catharine Christiana) then she should have been vitualled and noted on the Secretary of War's records at I think from memory "Whitehall". These could be at the UK's National Archives. I think I have the WO file numbers for same era, but back at my home (which I will be returning to later today .... five hour drive though).
I think there would also be similar info on the 1815 pay list, however, CC Mc N was most likely no longer vitualled against his pay list, as she had become crew in 1811 on the Perserverence. I am suggesting though, that the Catherine McGuire, free woman on the 1818 VDLmuster, could well be her. McGuire would be her maiden name, but if he regularly used his known alias of McNally, then she may have, at times, chosen to use that instead. IT WAS NOT ILLEGAL TO BE KNOWN BY AN ALIAS, the word has a much more unsavory meaning NOW, but it was not so in that era.
I will try to write out a likely "fictional" history of what I think MAY have occurred, but that will not get done until I am at my own 'puter, and so it will be late tonight.
I think it very very likely that Captain William ROOK and Thomas RANSOM were CC McN's protectors, and that Catherine Kearney, alias McNally was protecting her too. I think the problem occurred in 1814, when James McGuire came to VDL as part of the 46th regiment (as McNally etc) and thought he could push his way back into his daughter's life. I think Roger Gavin was a threat to CC McN and that it was he, who in 1825, to impress Gov Arthur, "ferretted" out any gossip he could on any of the NI settlers. It would be to get his promotion to Chief of Police to Gov Arthur's newly formed police district.... which happened to be down the road, passed his step sons farms and Roger Gavin only knew a part of the story.
Of course, I could be so far off track, but .... its worth a try. It seems to be the closest yet to finding the origins, and the key to Wiggy's puzzle.
Cheers, JM (excuse any typos, I'm typing without much screen, and with electrical interferences ...
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WELL FOUND SYLVIA
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
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Huge effort one and all - I am dumbfounded - almost.
Just one thing - I didn't say I can show Catharine and Thomas had the same bedroom - I said I can find one instance when there is a direct inference that they were not in the same bedroom - slight difference in interpretation there JM!! ::) No twisting my words!! :D ( post 52) ;)
Am looking looking at all those leads. Many thanks folks.
Wiggy
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Re IGI entries for Catherine Rook- careful not to get these confused.
The 1792 marriage of John Rook to Catherine Whitley at Millbrook in1792, gives us the Catherine Rook born in 1793. Because of the 'Millbrook' reference, she is possibly the Perseverance 1811 Catherine Rook marrying a Mcnally 1811-1816
The 1766 Catherine Rook (dau of Hugh Rook) marrying John McCally in 1786 would give us a daughter Catherine Mccally not a Catherine Rook(e). Catherine McCally(nee Rook) is too old (1766) to be our Catherine ,there would have to be a daughter Catherine Mc(N)ally from this couple about 1789 to be relevant to our search
These appear to be two quite distinct couples.
David
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Re post 52 JM
a) When you were at St David's were you actively looking for McGuire Wink .... I'm noticing the first names of her parents, the use of the alias surname that is associated with McNally, and that the surname offered by the submitter starts with Mc (as in CC Mc N Roll Eyes I'm gently suggesting that perhaps you ought to contact the same place you got Thomas McNally's record, and ask them for similar pages for the 3rd & 4th quarters of 1823 Grin ....
When I was in Hobart I didn't know about any McGuire!! I was looking for Ransom or McNally.
I made that particular search last June when I was there and we've learnt so much since then! - I checked baptisms for children called Anne to Mothers called Catharine, for and aft of the Thomas entry, just to see if any looked likely. Nothing got up and hit me. Next time I am in Hobart, I will search again - It may not be for a while - I'm saving up for the trip! I have rather enough requests in to the Archives at the moment - think I'd better go easy on them for a while. ;)
Thanks for making the Rook/McCally households clearer for me David - I was/am getting totally confused. I don't know how you guys do it! I cannot take everything in at this pace - SLOW DOWN you lot!!! :)
Cheers, Wiggy
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Just a couple or so items I trawled some weeks previous, but managed to file in a folder marked "Tardis Cuttings" (you reallydon't want to know)
Historic Records of Australia 29/12/1819 George Town-Cimitiere to Archer;
"in reply to your letter dated 27th Instant in which you state that the Magistrates have deprived James McNally of his Crown Servant by name Stephen Carr and that Mr James Hill wishes to take the said Convict off the stores, I have no objection"
HRA 19 Feb 1820 Nominal List of (number of) Crown prisoners in the employ of Officers, Settlers etc as assigned Government Servants Port Dalrymple VDL 19 Feb 1820
"J McAnally, 1"
HRA 25 June 1819 Persons victualled from His Majests Magazines at George Town and Port Dalrymple "Settlers-John McNally struck off 16 th July 1819 (?DWC-see date of notice) was victualled by Major Stewart until further orders for saving a number of Government cattle from drowning in the river"
Convict Indents 1788-1812 to NSW McNally, including variants
Macnally James Marquis Cornwallis 1796 Meath
McNeal John Fortune/Alexander 1806 Warwickshire
Mcannelly James Boddingtons 1792 Antrim
McKenley Joseph Minerva 1800 Ireland m Catherine Clements, in 1822 NSW muster a John Mcnulty age 11 born colony living with Ann Clements
McNally Maria Marquis Cornwallis 1796 Dublin
McNalty Catherine Sydney Cove 1807 Middlesex ( Theres my girl! m Bryan Overhand)
Mc Nalty Daniel Boyd 1809 Ireland
McNulty Mary Tellicherry 1806 Ireland
Tasmanian Colonial Index Compiled by FHC Resouces Group Kiama;-
John McNally 1832-34 Richmond DistrictTrials -Accused P148 ML323 Reel P3-9 Ref CY 11
McNally VDL 1827-28 Superior Court Orders Reel P3-11 Ref CY 2142 Sec ML 176-24 frames 358,364, 377
Also, I have checked Lists A1 and A2 pages 281-327 of Portia Robinson "The Women of Botany Bay" for 29 convict women called Catherine tried after 1803 and arrived Sydney before 1812 and cross checked against 1806/1811/1814 musters and nobody seems to be a possible fit for our girl in Hobart in 1819-1821
David
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Hi all,
http://www.lib.mq.edu.au/all/journeys/menu.html
This is a link for the Diaries of Governor Lachlan Macquarie (Gov of NSW, which included of course NI, VDL etc) . Tis Just Moi Opinion, of course, that it is a valuable resource ... particularly for this thread, if looking at the movements of vessels and regiments. Hence I note that in April 1820 his diary noted:
4 April HM Storeship Coromandel anchored in Sydney Cove, from the Derwent and originally from England (31 Oct 1819) via Rio de Janeiro ....mentions Privates of the 46th (Regiment) ... NO MENTION of any women and children in that entry BUT
23 April
Departing that day, several ships, including Lord Wellington for India with Detachments of the 14th. 24th. 30th. 34th. 46th. 69th. & 89th. Regts. consisting of 2 Subaltern officers, 113 Noncomd. Offrs. and Soldiers, 13 Women & 9 Children, under the Command of Lt. Raines of the 46th. Regiment, have Embarked & proceeded to join their Corps.
Why am I posting this on this thread ?
a) Well, its simply to show that when trying to track "camp followers" they are rarely named in Colonial records, BUT may be indicated on Vitualling lists, or on paylists etc. Extant pay lists may be readily available, and perhaps Wiggy may consider searching for the 46th Regiment's history and /or for those pay lists.
b) Gov Macquarie at one stage made specific orders directing clergy conducting baptisms etc to transmit on a quarterly basis the full details to (from memory) Rev Cowper at St Phillips in Sydney. His orders would have applied to Rev Knopwood in VDL just as they applied to baptisms in settlements in NSW. Although I am aware that the some of the clergy in NSW perhaps either failed to transmit some/several/any of these "transmitted returns" I note that Knopwood conducted the baptism of CC Mc N's son (Dec 1820).
IS IT LIKELY that Thomas McNally was born in VDL .... yes, HOWEVER, is it certain that he was born in VDL ... NO...
It is likely that the 46th's regiment's records are NOT in the same files as the 48th's (I'm interested in the 48th's for my own forebears), but the location for regimental records of that 1814-1825 era may be stored at the same archival facility as the 48th. Hence, I note that the Bibliography notes from Clem Sargent's authoritative book about the 48th (in VDL and NSW) INDICATES THAT THE 48TH'S REGISTER OF MARRIAGES AND BAPTISMS in that regiment was one of Sargent's references. So perhaps the 46th's register is extant.
Other references in that text note that the WO series 12 has Muster Books and Pay Lists, WO 17 Monthly Returns, WO 22 Out Pension Records; and other WO references etc, including
WO 97 Series - Soldier's Documents.
As my own family history interests are in the 48th, I have not investigated the 46th's... however, I have suggested, several times, that perhaps the 46th regimental records has some answers ....
ISBN : 064625612 2 (AND PAPERBACK IS 0646 255789).
Cheers, JM
PS, Pedantic ... Wiggy, you are not pedantic ... ;D, you are simply trying to get absolute proof that CC McN's son's father was Thomas Ransom. ::)
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Hi Wiggy,
I hope I am not duplicating information posted on either of those earlier threads, but at Reply 48 of this thread, you were kind enough to list the certificates you have ...
3. I have certificate for Catharine's marriage with Frederick Von Stieglitz
And I just right now I have woken up, and turned PC back on to check on McNally (yet again ;)) so I share : I notice that this marriage was announced in the newspapers
MARRIED-At New Norfolk, on Tuesday last, by Special License, by the Rev. H. R. Robinson, A.M., Frederick Steiglitz, Esq. to Mrs. Catherine McNally, of the Royal Oak Inn, Green Ponds
Friday 22 January 1830 Colonial Times
Have you considered tracking down any index for Special Licences and (trying to be gentle here) have you noticed Catherine's title in this advert was "Mrs."
Three threads, .... lots of findings presuming Mrs Ransom would actually be CC Mc N ....
Could you please type up and post the full details from her marriage certificate ... (don't post the certificate, it could be copyright, but your own transcript, please ;D .... especially looking for "widow" rather than "spinster" ... if that info is not on the document, then perhaps you will need to chase up the Special Licence .... there SHOULD be some record for it somewheres.
Also, as its very late at night, and I hope my wording/colour of / or size of font is not too confronting or harsh. I apologise if it is.
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM,
Before I went to Tassie last time, in November, you asked me about this so I asked the TAO for info, both before we went and while we were there
- as both parties were of age, no special licence was required for them to marry.
The certificate (No 45 in the New Norfolk parish register) shows their names and the place where they were married, Green Ponds - it does not show Catharine as either widow or spinster or anything else - just names, place, date and officiating clergy (Robinson). She signed as Christina - by which name she was known. The witnesses were W King and John McMullen - (I think - hard to read, but it is not McNally!) There is no dispute about who she was at the time of marrying Fred - she was, Catharine Christina McNally, the person from the Royal Oak who'd been known as Mrs Ransom for 12-14 years - 14 if we believe Thomas - (and why shouldn't we?) Yes I've seen that newspaper ad. She signed 'McNally' for all legal documents as we've noted. Edit to add The Mrs in the ad may be in deference to her age - but she may have been Mrs McNally and that may have been the reason she couldn't marry Thomas!
You asked for direction in this hunt - OK here is comes!! But you may not like it so I'm warning you ;D
We are quite happy with the fact that Catharine Christina McNally was with Thomas Ransom after 1819 - she was well know about town and in a secure relationship - of whatever type - with Thomas, and there are several newspaper cuttings to back this up. This is not in dispute.
What we are trying to find out is, who she was, where she came from and when she arrived in Tasmania. (See post one of this thread.)
Thomas says the relationship is of 11 years standing when he writes to the Lieut. Gov. in 1824. Now I am repeating myself. So we are looking for someone who might be CCMcN in the 1814-1819 bracket or before - it is fairly certain that she is McNally by the time she gets to Tassie - as has been pointed out, the population was so small she wouldn't have been able to change her name - other than by marriage or association - without it being noticed. (Very colourful Wiggy - think I'm trying to make a point here??)
I understand why you keep going forward - but I really think, in the interests of keeping the thread shorter, we'd better stick to the main questions. You are worried about the length of the thread - me too! :D
I will not be posting for a while - got to go and digest this lot and write it up. Of course, if anyone suddenly finds her, I'll know and will be back like in a flash - but I'm going to keep quiet and do some serious thinking about the implications of all you've (collectively) told me.
thank you all - again and again. I'm grateful and impressed by your expertise.
Wiggy (that's a long post for someone trying to keep things short!!) :D
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Hi Wiggy, and everyone following this thread,
I'm sorry that when you were in Tassie last Nov that the TAO did not provide you with info about Special Licences, and that instead, they explained that they did not require a special licence.
From memory on the TAO website there's every indication that the TAO has special licences archived from (again from memory) as early as about 1822. I will check and post their archival reference.
From my own family history researchings, I am certain that applications for special licences are archived, and files usually contain affadavits from which ever party had been previously married, and thus in the instance of CC Mc N's 1830 marriage, I would suggest there's an affadavit in the TAO's archives, dated sometime in Dec 1829 or early Jan 1830. I would expect such an affadavit to note a) date of death of previous spouse, b) her nee name c) name of vessel that she arrived on in VDL and d) date of her arrival etc.
It is Just Moi Opinion that there was a special licence for that Jan 1830 marriage. If so, it should provide the very key to your puzzle ;) It should answer the question as to who she was, where she came from and when she arrived in Tasmania .... I am sorry you have mis understood my reason for again raising the issue of the newspaper cutting's reference to a) special licence and b) Mrs.
Cheers, JM (I will be back shortly with the relevant TAO guide reference details giving the TAO archival references.)
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;D ;D
http://www.archives.tas.gov.au/guides/public
TAO Guides are online as pdf files. I note that the TAO has affidavits for Marriages by Licence from 1823 .... and that they are indexed in reverse chronological order. The Archives reference would be CSO 1/6 - 7/100 (1823-36)
Also I note that the TAO has a guide for free immigration... perhaps there are Archival records for her arrival in VDL ...
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
JM’s lunchbreak ...
Free immigration to VDL before 1821
From TAO guide, there were restrictions on free immigrants just turning up without permission. TAO guide nominates the first three arrivals of free immigrants on vessels : Adamant (1816), Caroline (1820) and Skelton (1820)
a) I note that from various newspaper reports and the NSW Col Sec papers that the Adamant (Capt William Elder) was a whaling vessel and that her captain is indexed in NSW Col Sec from as early as 1811 sailing to England, via Norfolk Island with provisions for NI. I note that from HTG 19 Oct 1816, Adamant was at HT, but no passengers listed. I note that from HTG 2 Nov 1816, Adamant was still at HT, and so too was the Lynx (the ROOK connection again) I again note that the ship Governor Hunter (perhaps under Capt Rook) was built by Thomas Ransom at Norfolk Island.
b) I note that from HTG 2 Dec 1820, that the arrivals of both the Caroline and the Skelton list passenger arrivals, but none named McNally (or variations). The Caroline sailed direct from Plymouth, “touched at no port on her passage”, whereas the Skelton sailed from Leith, and then from Portsmouth, and touched at Cape of Good Hope. There is no mention of any births on board, however, I note that Wiggy has his birth date as Nov 1820. From my own family history searchings for the 1820's, I note that I have copies of primary records from NSW State Library and from NSW State Records office that clearly show that one of my forebears gave birth onboard their arrival ship (prior to that ships arrival) at PJ and that baby was then baptised at Macquarie St Chapel, Sydney with the records transmitted to Rev Cowper at St Phillips. I note that from the Syd Gaz newspaper the arrival of this vessel to PJ was noted, but that no mention was made of the birth of that baby (my great great grandmother).
I use my own example of the search for information about my own great great grandmother's origins as her parents were free immigrants BEFORE there were "immigration plans" and because their arrival to PJ was in the same decade as the birth and baptism of C C Mc N's baby boy, Thomas., and err... the baptism was in the same colony as Thomas Mc N ("my" one in Sydney, "Wiggy's" one in Hobart. Fortunately for my own family history, my forebears turned up for the musters of free persons and for the NSW 1828 census.
I would be pleased to continue following this thread, however, perhaps until a search of the TAO for the special marriage licence that ought to have been obtained so that the Rev in 1830 could rule out any bigamy issues, (ie the inference from Thomas Ransom's letter to Gov Arthur in 182/45), I will endeavour to refrain to search further for CC Mc N
Cheers, JM
EDIT to add, please check the baptism record for Thomas McNally carefully, does it actually state UNMARRIED or perhaps it has "UX" being the then acceptable abbreviation to indicate WIFE, its from the Latin "uxor" meaning wife .... ;D and "UX" (sometimes only the 'U' OR THE "X" is clear until you check carefully, but 'UX" was in use in NSW penal colonial times on musters, etc, and on baptismal records for another of my "came free" forebears when each of their "cornstalks" were baptised, and the parish records then transmitted to Cowper from 1818 to 1830 ..
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Hi all,
I am attaching an image of a marriage certificate for a marriage in NSW in 1817. I have blotted out the identifying features, and entered text "JM .... " at those places. (alas, poorly for I'm not good with the paint brush tool on my graphics software).
This certificate is extant, but I only have an image of it. The parish register record is not set out in the same format, and I have a copy of that record also. But the certificate itself, or a copy of it, would not normally be held by the Parish registrar. It would have been handed to the Bride as proof that SHE was married. It is quite rare for archives (govt or parish) to have the original of the Bride's certificate, or even a copy of the certificate itself. It is common for archives (eg NSW State Library) to have images of the parish records (which in 1817 should have been transmitted to St Phillips Church in Sydney from every Rev'd)... The parish records should show whether the marriage was by Banns or by SL (Special Licence), and the marriage between minors needed to indicate the name of the person (and the authority ie father or guardian etc) giving consent.
I don't have any forebears marrying in the early 1830's, so I am not able to provide an example of a marriage certificate for that period, sorry.
But I note from the 1817 certificate these relevant items:
.... Banns, Batchelor (sic), Spinster, the ages of both, and that the groom signed, others making their mark.
Cheers, JM (PS by mid 1840's thse marriage certificates were around four foot long and only about eight inches high. Usually folded up and fitted into the Brides front cover of a treasured Psalm Book, or the like.
Removed attachment JM :)
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SO . . .
I have a copy of the affidavit signed by Catharine the day before she married Frederick Stieglitz. She declares she is a widow and signs her name McNally.
Questions now are:
1. Did she consider herself a widow - albeit de-facto - of Thomas (I would have after 12-16 years of stable relationship!!) And remember she always signed herself McNally for anything legal so that doesn't necessarily mean too much in my humble opinion.
Or
2. Was there a McNally death round about that time - say 1827-29 - (because I don't think she wouldn't have bothered to marry Thomas at that late stage - they were settled, respected and there wasn't anyone kicking up a fuss by then - why rock the boat?)
Cheers team!
Wiggy
I'm going to the papers to look for McNally deaths - anyone with access to Tas or NSW death records is welcome to see what they can see!!! I have a hunch we've seen a McNally death in 1827 - can't just remember where or exactly when and if his family is accounted for.
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Hi Wiggy,
Good to know that you have that affidavit! So it was a marriage by special licence.
Would you please transcribe the words on the document from the Tas Archives and post them here when you have spare moments.
Also, many NSW burials from that period are indexed and online and free to search at http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/searchHistoricalRecords.htm
Re your Q1, As I understand it, and I could be wrong, "widow" at that time may not have inferred she was Thomas Ransom's widow ... I would have expected CC McN and Thomas Ransom to have married shortly before he made his will in the weeks before his death in 1829 for her to have been considered as the widow of Thomas Ransom, prior to her marriage (within twelve months) to Frederick Stieglitz. Twelve months would perhaps be a minimum period of mourning for a widow receiving the benefit of his estate, particularly as her son, baptised as Thomas McNally also benefited from that estate.
Re your Q2 ... Are you sure there was no-one around kicking up a fuss, or just that there's nothing in the on-line papers to suggest there was anyone fussing ...
Hope you will find the reference to a death for a McNally in abt 1827 mentioned somewhere on the many pages on these threads, or on your notes etc.
Cheers,
JM
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No I can't be transcribing the whole affidavit - usual wording just that she says widow
The first bit saying signed before me etc etc . . . Catherine McNally of Green Ponds in the said colony, Widow, and voluntarily made oath that she is . . . above 21 years of age . . . etc etc etc to the said Catherine McNally and Frederick Stiegltiz of Green Ponds Bachelor with whom she is now desirous of proceeding to the solemnization . . .etc etc signed!
Catharine McNally. 18th Jan 1830.
My opinion is that she wouldn't have bothered to marry Thomas at that late stage!! That is just moi opinion!! (Sorry JM!!) I'm her G3 so it is my family feeling!!!! ;D Just joking doncha know!!
Wiggy
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So, one day she was Catherine signing the affidavit, and the next day, she was Christiana marrying Freddy... ;)
Gently remembering that newspaper report .... Mrs Catherine McNally for that marriage to Freddy ... ;)
;D
Not sure if I can help further Wiggy ...
Cheers JM
Hi JM,
Before I went to Tassie last time, in November, you asked me about this so I asked the TAO for info, both before we went and while we were there
- as both parties were of age, no special licence was required for them to marry.
The certificate (No 45 in the New Norfolk parish register) shows their names and the place where they were married, Green Ponds - it does not show Catharine as either widow or spinster or anything else - just names, place, date and officiating clergy (Robinson). She signed as Christina - by which name she was known. The witnesses were W King and John McMullen - (I think - hard to read, ......................
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Wiggy ,
can't see any in NSW at that time nor any in Tas.
Of course if he was in the army it could have been anwhere in the world that the british had sent their armies!!!! (Most likely I would think).
That could be like looking for a needle in a haystack
best wishes
Robyn
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JM,
Yes that's what I thought - very odd - re names I mean! As said before she seems to be called Christina most of the time- Catharine for legalities (except her marriage certificate!!) ;)
The thing is, it doesn't say special license - just an affidavit saying that she is free to marry by license It was only the papers saying anything about special- not the church records - I don't know if there is any difference. Ignorant that's me!
JM you've been a trouper and I quite understand if you've come to the end of the road on this one! I see you on the boards helping others all the time, and am very grateful for all the time you've spent finding information for me! 'Mille danke!'
Robyn
- or even out at sea on a sealing trip!! - another flight of fancy!! As opposed to the fancy of considering herslef married to Thomas for all intents and purposes! Like saying widow! :-\
Cheers and many thanks,
Wiggy :)
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;) Err, Wiggy,
JM,
Yes that's what I thought - very odd - re names I mean! As said before she seems to be called Christina most of the time- Catharine for legalities (except her marriage certificate!!) ;)
The thing is, it doesn't say special license - just an affidavit saying that she is free to marry by license It was only the papers saying anything about special- not the church records - I don't know if there is any difference. Ignorant that's me!
JM you've been a trouper and I quite understand if you've come to the end of the road on this one! I see you on the boards helping others all the time, and am very grateful for all the time you've spent finding information for me! 'Mille danke!'
Robyn
- or even out at sea on a sealing trip!! - another flight of fancy!! As opposed to the fancy of considering herslef married to Thomas for all intents and purposes! Like saying widow! :-\
Cheers and many thanks,
Wiggy :)
If crew had been lost at sea, it would have been recorded in that vessel's log book and reported to the next port and to the home port.
Free to marry by licence ... and married the next day ... twas not a marriage by banns, but by marriage licence, ie special licence ... granted by the Gov, or his administration, permitting her to marry a second time ... as she was a widow... the marriage certificate would say if married by banns or otherwise, ie SL or licence or Special Licence... (the last three are same thing as each other)... (edit to add, as opposed to a Publican's licence, also issued by Gov, or to a convict seeking to marry thus asking for the Gov's permission and IF granted it would be by licence)
I agree with Robyn, its a needle in a haystack.
You may consider purchasing transcripts of the death certs for a Michael Mc Nally (make sure there's a space betwixt Mc and Nally) on the NSW BDM online index ... 1827, aged 35 from memory... Also there were very heavy penalties for making false declarations on affidavits ... penal clauses in a penal colony .. perhaps banishment to a place of secondary transportation .... She didn't marry Thomas because she thought she was still married to a Mr McNally. She learnt he had died, but only learnt that after Thomas had died. She was a widow by her lawful marriage to Mr Mcnally ...
Wiggy, I know you may not agree, BUT you need to purchase transcripts/copies of the indexed records, not just rely on indexed info, or on family trandition. At least that way you can confirm family tradition...
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I believe you JM - it's just that I have a very similar declaration signed by my grandmother in Launceston on the day before her marriage stating that she is free to marry not otherwise married and over the age of 21 impediments - and signed on the day before - - that's why I thought it maybe the same thing by another name.
Been looking for a death - will try to follow up leads. Thanks folks! :D
Wiggy
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Hi Wiggy,
But VDL in 1830 was a penal colony... and there in lies the difference between your Gran's marriage in Tasmania and your GGG Gran's marriage in Van Diemen's Land. Differences in time, in administration, and in colonial rule .... From my point of view, it is important to know of and have an understanding of the rules and practices of the "regime" in control at the time any event was recorded, so that with that knowledge it leads to knowing how to find the records of the forebear that lived under that "regime" and then construct an image of their lives. From my point of view, the specific day, month and year for their birth, marriage and death is important only in providing their limits. Its the time between those dates (the little line that the software programs show on tree charts as "-" ) that interests me. For example:
The Macquarie era was significant in Thomas Ransom's life at NI, and in his re-settlement in VDL ....
Bigge's report addressed in a significant way various issues in VDL under Macquarie's regime...
But Gov Arthur's era was significant in Thomas and Catharine's decade immediately before Thomas' death in 1829....
Yet both Macquarie's and Arthur's eras were penal administrations.
Your Gran's marriage may well have been decades and decades after Tasmania's governence moved on from penal times, into responsible self government, with elected rather than appointed decision makers.
I did not doubt that you believed me, Wiggy, and I am sure you must be rather tired of reading my postings about the importance of the primary records and not just the index number for those... Each of us has our own ways of researching, and helping others with their research, so I do hope you follow up on the leads from everyone who has contributed to the three threads about Catharine Christiana McNally.
Cheers,
Sincerely JM
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May i send some greetings to all ?
It is all high interesting and gives many information about these times in Tas. And it would be very amazing to take part. Sadly i am too far away, and my uncle the historian Karl Rawdon vS is since years dead. So: get lucky with the needle in the haystock ... sometimes has the haystock the notice.
Best wishes LvS
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Good to hear from you Leo! We've got a bit stuck - but still looking! One day that haystack will reveal all!
Wiggy
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Hi there, Leo,
Like you, I am not anywhere near Tasmania. In fact, I live around 1700 kms from there. I am not related to anyone mentioned in the three Wiggy threads, but I am not currently still looking for anyone mentioned in those threads.
I do note that on a submitted tree, there's mention that Catharine was twice married, firstly in 1816 to a Thomas Jnr Ransom, and then in 1830 to Frederick. Catharine's relationship to both her children (Ann and Thomas) is noted on that tree as "step-children". Ann's birth year is noted there as 1817, and Thomas as 1821.
In my notes I have some details about their possible identities and I will post that information shortly, simply by modifying this post.
MODIFYING:
By Dec 1820, Thomas Ransom was operating Joiners Arms ... there was a coroners inquest there in early Dec 1820 on a William Cobb who left a wife and two children "wholly unprovided for". mentioned in the newspapers about 9 Dec 1820.
Short version of long story. Cobb was convict, his UX was Judith?Johanna/Hanna Conway (Judy Cowy on 1820 VDL muster).. She married again, 1823, 2nd husband was a James LOWE ... stayed in VDL ... but there's no sighting of the two orphaned children, OR of her third child, who was baptised in May 1821.
Possible Scenerio
Judith Conway PJ to VDL late 1816 ish, meets Cobb say 1817, and has a daughter and/or a son by him. perhaps Ann in 1818, and Thomas earlier than Nov 1820, perhaps actually Nov 1819. William Cobb has accident, passes, distraught widow gives up her two children to Thomas Ransom as she is already carrying another child by Cobb. Child was a boy, and baptised with the latinised name for William COBB ... Guielli etc. Rev'd Knopwood baptises C C Mc N's "son" (ie Cobb's son by Judith Conway) because that's part of his responsibilities, and knows full well that Thomas Ransom and C C Mc N will care for both the two children cause perhaps Thomas Ransom followed up and organised the whip around to provide Judith Conway with accomodation, food clothing etc
I have NOT found the three children that Judy Conway had with William Cobb (some submitted trees list the youngest, but not the others) ... TWO VDL children born same era as Ann Ransom and Thomas McNally.
PS, by mid 1822 the population of VDL was only around 8000, (HTG Saturday 8 June 1822) so two orphaned children in Hobart Town should be easier to find than C C McN ...on the 1822 Muster ... surely.
Cheers, JM
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justmoi,
tx for this summing-up and your hypotheses (right English ?). If I understand you right, were these children "adopted"or "attended" by T.R., who had in the same time his relationship with C C McN. They grew up with this "parents" and their real parents were not more known. This would many things explain. Is this provable ? Though we can assume the character of Thomas Ransom, this could be very possible, a JP, who won a high sympathetic "standing" in this new land ... just as well his wife CC ... and my xxguncle Freddy had great luck with his choice.
Leo, ca. 18.000 km
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Hi there,
The possible scenerio (hypotheses) that I offered is simply one of many possibilities that I had thought may be worthwhile following up, particularly through the 1822 Muster records.
I tend to avoid "submitted" trees, particularly when there's no citations/references that can be easily checked, but I did notice that there were several trees for Catharine Christiana Mc Nally on various websites, indicating "step" children relationships between her and Ann and Thomas. I think the following link is one of those trees. Perhaps you or Wiggy may be interested in following up by searching for a family history researcher for the Cobb line.
Here's the information from one of those submitted trees showing the step relationship
Self Catherine Christiana MCNALLY abt 1790 1857 Fingal, Tasmania, Australia 67
Husband Thomas RANSOM abt 1780 1829 Tasmania, Australia 49
Husband Frederick Lewis Ludwig Von STIEGLITZ 13 Oct 1803 Eglish, Armagh, Ireland 14 May 1866 Armagh, Ireland 62
Step Daughter Anne RANSOM 1817 01 Oct 1892 Launceston, Tasmania, Australia 75
Step Son Thomas RANSOM abt 1821 20 Mar 1904 Tasmania, Australia 83
Here's the shrunken link to that online submission ... its not verified, so I leave it up to you or Wiggy or other RChatters to follow up each aspect separately, to determine which piece/pieces of information are in the public records. The formal adoption processes that exist in our lives, simply did not exist back in the early 19th century so that I doubt if there's any ONE specific record that will confirm or eliminate my suggested scenerio. But I do think it could be worthwhile following up, perhaps with a separate thread here on RChat.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/087h/
Cheers, JM
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Vale David 8/04/2010. He'll be missed by so many.
Wiggy
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Just adding a little extra to the puzzle!
After some digging and help on the London board, it transpires that Thomas's first wife, Elizabeth, outlived him by seven years, and didn't remarry, and his daughter Magdalen Jane was also still alive (married 1813) throughout his life time. I wonder if Thomas was in touch with his English family - M Jane could write well though Elizabeth couldn't.
There was a letter waiting for Thomas when he arrived back in Sydney from Norfolk Island in 1814 - from the powers that be telling him of his land grant in VDL, or thanking him for his work, or . . . - or from home telling him of M Jane's marriage maybe. We'll never know!
About Ann, the other daughter in England, we don't know - can't get a handle on her at all! I wonder would Thomas have felt himself still married to Elizabeth, in spite of his liaison with Catharine.
Just a thought, and doesn't get the puzzle solved - interesting that's all.
Wiggy
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Wiggy,
Perhaps it is an explanation for the impediment to the marraige between Thomas and Catharine.
Way out of line is the ealier postulated notion that Catharine was his daughter. Unmarreid and pregnant and needing shelter. Sounds possible but not probable.
Think we need to find out more about Ann.
Could she also have been convicted and transported?
Could she have married a McNally?
Could she have married a soldier and accompanied him to Austalia and beenn left behind when the regiment returned to London?
All good questions but will neede time to research and find answers.
Nice find though it leaves unanswered questions still
Robyn
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Hi Robyn,
Welcome back!
Don't think that will work - Ann herself is too old to be this lady - she was the older of the two girls born, 1780.
Good thought though! Those 'boys' helping me with 'Thomas in London' have found out lots of things! - Elizabeth seems to have been the daughter of an escaped Huguenot family amongst other things! I've learnt quite a bit about conditions in East London.
None of it helps with Catharine but it all adds background to the picture - makes it more interesting for those of us descended from Thomas. (we like to maintain!)
Wiggy
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Wiggy
Is Anne old enough to be Catharine's mother? (women had children as young 12 and 13 then)
Robyn
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Pushing it!! She would have been 9 or 10!! Really don't think that will wash! I had thought of that but - no, I don't think so.
It also appears that those girls went to school - or at least learnt to write - and they didn't learn that from their mother! Magdalen Jane (she was known as Jane in the census records) ended up in the French Hospital in London so I think they might have adhered to their Huguenot roots - which to my mind makes a child for Ann at that early age even more unlikely, even though mistakes do happen.
(We thought we'd found Ann's marriage but it turned out not to be - and one of the clues was that Jane could write so well, and the marriage we had for Ann showed her as illiterate - further research showed different parents for the one we'd found - I have been looking for an unmarried Ann as we can't find a marriage record for her to date. I can't locate her yet - but as you well know the records are hard to find for that time.)
Wiggy
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Wiggy
remember we only have Catharine's information in respect to her age could she have been younger than she said?
Robyn
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It is possible - see PM!
Wiggy
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Just keeping those interested up to date.
It appears we have pegged Thomas Snr - he was born in Nov 1757 (not 1741 as previously thought) - thus making him a bare 30 years older than Catharine (and much more likely to have been father of T jnr. Still not proven nor likely ever to be so but . . . !)
It seems that the age 86 given in his death notice/obituary 13 Feb 1829 is most likely a simple error of transposition of digits. Thomas gives his age in a letter to the Gov. in Oct 1824 as 65 - making him 68ish in early 1829 when he died - A much more likely scenario - and much closer to his actual age of 70 - just fudging a little.
Catharine remains "unfound" but hunted, slowly and quietly. Not reopening the hunt - just keeping you posted! ;)
Wiggy
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nice researcing wiggy
makes things a bit more plausible now and rules out several possible scenearios we came up witih.
Keep it ongoing
Robyn
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Hello, I'm very new to this, just started now but saw some names in your messages that I also have in an old family history book on the Langdale family history that goes back to the 1500's. I'm sure it has the names Stieglitz in it and a Christina and I would like to help if it helps you but I'm not sure what to do with all this, sorry. I just wanted to let you know in case it might help. It might not be anything I saw some info on my partners grandfather, Marmaduke Langdale, from Ba Fiji. This is a bit confusing for me but if there is a connection I'm happy to look through my book if that helps you. Excuse me if I've got this all wrong.
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Hello Rosehill,
Welcome to Rootschat and thanks very much for making contact. ;)
We did come across the Langdales, but they were marrying into the family of Anne and Francis Von Stieglitz.
Christina Von Stieglitz was the eldest daughter of Anne and Francis and she married Marmaduke Robert Langdale.
Anne was the daughter, either blood or adopted, of Catherine Christina McNally who married Frederick Von Stieglitz - brother of Francis.
This thread is really about Christina's grandmother Catharine Christina - who was always called Christina we think. :-\
If you know anything to add about Catharine Christina that would be wonderful. :)
We didn't follow the Landale family as we were concentrating on the Ransoms which is our direct line. The Langdales were a bit sideways from where we were looking at the time.
I hope you will find this a friendly site and that you might be able to find help with some of your family searches. :D
Wiggy :)
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I will have a look in my book for you now as I think there is a handwritten note about Christina. Off the top of my head it might be where she died and the date. Is that the sort of thing you are after?
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Well I know where and when Christina (McNally) Von Stieglitz died - in Tasmania in 1857 at Killymoon and she is buried at Cullenswood just near St Marys in the Fingal Valley.
- but the Christina you are talking about, Christina Von Stielgitz - Langdale as she became - well, she died in 1888 in Melbourne Victoria age 46. She had three children.
She isn't high on our priority list as she is very much a side family from the lady I am seeking. ;) I don't think I will pursue that family unless you have knowledge about her mother Anne, wife of Francis. I'd love to see evidence of her birth, because I can't find it no matter how hard I look. Or her grandmother Catharine Christina.
Wiggy :) ;)
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Hi Rosehill,
Post once more on this thread, then I can send you a personal message off air. See the little green scroll under your and my names - if after three posts, you click on that, you can send messages off the boards. you will find the messages up at the top of the page :D :D
And I'd love to know what was in the note about Christina. ;D
Wiggy
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I will definitely go through this book and give you all I have as I'm quite confused. I have original newspaper clippings and little handwritten notes with dates, places of death etc. The book is very, very old, falling to bits and contains the Langdale pedigree going back to King John. It has coat of arms for this and other families, royal family connections etc but I've yet to work it all out. It has been maintained and handed down through the family. My head is swimming ;) and I'm a bit mixed up so will look some more for you.
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Will look forward to anything you can add - but won't stay up tonight!!
Bed time for me!! ;D
Wiggy
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Hi Rosehill
Welcome from me too
CCMcN has been on my horizon ever since Wiggy first posed the question several years ago...
You will find RChat is a fantastic site as we all try to help each other with our searching for our ancestors so dont overlook asking for help with your own researching...
Fantastic that you are offering to help with CCMcN and the quest to learn more about her...
My fingers are crossed Wiggy!
Many Cheers JM
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Rosehill 99 how wonderful to have such a resource to refer to.
treat like gold and preserve for posterity what awonderful treasure to have i your family.
It would be wonderful if it could help wiggy with her research as even teh smallest clue could lead to a major breakthrough.
fingers toes etc crossed for you both.
Robyn
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As the others have said, your Langdale history is really a treasure to be guarded. How many of us would like something like that to fall back on!! And you never know what might come forth from it! :D
Good to see you Robyn and JM!
Wiggy
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I just had a thought - heaven knows why I didn't think of this before ::) ::) ::) or did I - it is too long ago!!!
- if, as David always said C C McN didn't arrive on the scene in Tasmania before 1819, might she have had Anne in some other place - and brought her with her when she arrived in Tasmania - is that why I can't find her birth registration in Tasmania??
Bet you've thought of this and dismissed it!
Downside to this argument is that she doesn't appear on the musters - even in 1819 when we are presuming the 'wife ' mentioned by Thomas to have been C C.
Rosehill thinks she may have something about Anne's origins - I'm on tenterhooks!!!
Wiggy Not really re-opening the discussion - just been hit by a thought! ;D ;D
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wiggy always possible of course.
would dearly love to look at the birth records for the british regiments Jamaica around 1818/1819
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So would I!!! Is it possible only make it 1817/18!
I'm reading 1788 at the moment and thinking about a child born on the ship coming out with the first fleet - or a Mrs "Marine" McNally on the second which would suit the time better for Catharine!!
I have a list of all Marines and convicts for first fleet - I wonder if there is such a think for second fleet - could Catherine have been born en route - another thought which struck me as I read of all the pregnancies on board!
But for Anne - oh yes I'd like to see those Jamaican records - for catharine we found a possible but couldn't get here to Australia - with confirming records anyhow!
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Wiggy
Some records here for second and third fleets
http://members.iinet.net.au/~perthdps/convicts/shipNSW1.html
Most resources are for the convicts and as I have learned finding marines or army records for those accompanying them is almost impossible you need regimental numbers and the records are in th UK and not online. There are some in the AJCP but those are restricted to teh years they were IN Australia not travelling to or from.
will keep looking round and see what I turn up.
Robyn
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Now you remind me, I have seen those lists before - it is the Marines and crews I'd like to find.
If they had children on board, would they have been registered when they arrived in Port Jackson - do you know?? Or would they have been registered back in UK -?? Or would they have been registered at all I wonder?
Seems we are back to the old merry-go-round!
Need to get off and think straight again!! ;)
Wiggy
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Wiggy for some reason I can't modify my posts
found
http://www.worldgenweb.org/~ausnsw/convicts.htm
http://www.historyaustralia.org.au/twconvic/Lady+Juliana+1790
http://members.pcug.org.au/~pdownes/ (also has marines and soldiers)
nationa library canberra has
http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/1985473
might be able to get it on interlibrary loan
good hunting
Robyn
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Sorry to resurrect such and old topic but I've read all three parts of this search and it fascinated me. I'm no relation but found it by chance on another search on here.
Was there ever any outcome of who Catharine McNally really was?
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No there never was - :'( :'(
Glad you found our meanderings interesting. :D We went up and down many rabbit holes didn't we!!
I still keep looking from time to time as new records become available, but she is the most talented woman I know as far as NEVER being around to be recorded.
Wiggy
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Hi (principally) to Wiggy
I also am very interested in Catherine McNally.
I have what could be new information.
I understand this thread (and its predecessors) spread over many pages.
Are there other related threads I should be aware of?
To save me getting on top of previous posts now, am I right that Wiggy is a linear descendant of Catherine through her son Thomas?
I would like to PM Wiggy, but am a new member and understand I must make three public posts first.
Regards
Harvey
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Just to add further to the above, I believe Catherine may have:
- been born in or near Mullingar, Westmeath, Ireland,
- arrived in VDL (or, less likely, NSW) as a convict, and
- possibly been younger than the record of her death suggests.
Harvey
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Hi Harvey
Welcome to Rootschat. If you reply to this post, you will then be able to private message.
Regards
Jennaya
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Hi Harvey,
Yes I am a direct descendant of Catherine McNally.
You have whetted my interest. I would be happy to hear your thoughts and suggestions.
I have looked many times in UK, Ireland, the West Indies, and even Australia for a likely birth.
So far, no luck, so I would love to see your proposed birth date, parents and convictions.
We also searched all convicts with name of Catherine /Catharine arriving in Australia., but were able to account for them all.
Looking forward to hearing from you. Hope you have some new info. :)
Wiggy
Edit to add -
There are other threads - - - to do with Thomas Ransom, both senior and junior.
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Hi Wiggy
It is very good to hear from you.
I will write in the next couple of days.
Regards
Harvey