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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Chatso58 on Tuesday 09 February 10 11:15 GMT (UK)
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I have a John Donnellan who I believe to be a convict what I am trying to find out is when his wife Catherine came to Australia, can anyone tell me how to go about finding convicts families arrivals and more about there trial any help would be appreciated
Chatso58
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Hi Chatso58,
you could try here;
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/archives-in-brief/archives-in-brief-1/
Or there is also;
http://www.blaxland.com/ozships/
Good luck,
Leonie.
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Two convicts by the name of John DONNELLAN are listed, which one are you referring to?
DONNELLAN John - arrived on the Isabella I (3) 1823
DONNELLAN John - arrived on the Blenheim 1834
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Hi
I put up a similar query on rootschat a while ago and got this helpful response from judb.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,387909.15.html
I have found a couple of general references to convicts' families coming to Australia - don't help in your particular search though.
http://heritagegenealogy.com.au/blog/2009/02/24/reuniting-of-wives-and-families-of-convicts/
The following, while it refers to 2 ships going to NSW rather than Van Diemans Land shows convicts accompanied by spouses/families, in 1803.
http://mc2.vicnet.net.au/home/grthom/web/Alexander.html
The National Archives (UK) apparently hold papers of petitions by wives to join their transported husbands but unfortunately these appear to be only available at the Archives.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=347&j=1
You can access some of the petitions at some Australian libraries as part of the Australian Joint Copy Project.
There is also at least one book/index out there on convict applications to bring their family to Australia - but not sure what state your convict was in to see if this might be relevant.
http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/2389414
I ended up finding a reference to the arrival of my convict's family on a land application in Tasmania.
M
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Hi to All
Thank you for your reply, the John DONNELLAN I am researching is the one that arrived on the Blenheim in 1834
I need to match him up with wife Catherine who appears to have arrived nine years later in about 1843, I first thought they came together but can't find any information to back that Chatso58
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If your convict is Irish check the Irish Archives website it will tell weather he requested that the government bring his family and you can get copies of the letters from your state library. I have found the letters very helpful in my family research.
hope this helped
HS
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Hi,
I can only find a Patrick Donnellan arriving on the Blenheim from Cork, Ireland. The Blenheim arrived in Sydney in November, 1834. Is this a transcription error?
Andcarred
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Not sure, Andcarred, but I've found records for John DONNELLAN arriving on the Blenheim 1834; apparently he was tried in Limerick, sentenced to Transportation for Life, and pardoned in 1847.
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What was Catherines maiden name? as sometimes the government would use the wife's maiden name when referring to her. Did they have children in Ireland? if so what were their names.
HS
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Hi Prue,
The Indent for the Blenheim lists a Patrick DONALLAN AGED 30 YEARS sentenced to life in Limerick in 1833. It is the list of Conditional Pardons in 1846 that lists him as John Donnellan of the Blenheim. I think this is probably the same man. However I cannot find him under any spelling at all on the Irish Database. Bit of a mystery one ??? ??? ???
Andcarred
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Hm...OK, I can see him as John in HO 10/30 "List of Convicts arrived 1833-1834, and in HO 10/33 "General Muster 1837", as well as the Pardons previously mentioned. Can't see a Patrick D arriving 1834 on the Blenheim in the records I have access to. :-\
I had a look at the Irish Convict Transportation Database too, but can't see John DONNELLAN...however on reading the info page:
While the collection of convict petitions dates from the beginning of transportation from Ireland to Australia in 1791, all transportation registers compiled before 1836 were destroyed in the Four Courts fire of June 1922. Therefore, if the person you are researching was convicted before 1836, but was not the subject of a petition, he or she will not appear on this database. In other words, the records from which the transportation database was compiled such as the transportation registers, convict reference files and petitions to government for pardon or commutation of sentence, are incomplete.
Perhaps John's wife came out of her own accord, but I can't immediately see her on any Assisted Passenger indexes. There are DONNELLANs immigrating Unassisted, but unfortunately there is no Catherine named - lots of Mrs DONNELLANs though.
A thought: Catherine's death certificate might state how long she had been in the colony.
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Hi there to all
thank you to everyone that's been working so hard on my family research my John wife name is Catherine Donnellan nee Mcmahon but not sure yet if this convict is our John I am trying to make the connection, but everything seems to fit Catherine came out in 1843 nine years after John and I don't think she had any Children in Ireland on Catherine death certificate states that she had four daughters and they were all born in Armidale N.S.W
John's conviction seems to be around the same time as they married on John's death certificate it says he was 29 when he married and he was 29 when he was convicted
and Catherine would have only been about 16 by her death certificate don't know if that had any thing to do with his conviction
Chatso58
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Hi again
could someone please explain why you think Patrick and John Donnellan are the same person? sorry but I just don't understand I would appreciate and explanation thank's again Chatso58
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The reason that we think Patrick and John are the same person is that all but one record of his convict life (musters/census, pardon etc) say his name is John DONNELLAN who arrived in 1834 on the Blenheim, but on one record (the indent for the ship BLENHEIM, i.e. the list of people on board and where and when they were convicted etc.) the name John DONNELLAN doesn't appear, but there is a Patrick DONNELLAN instead. It's the only time the name Patrick appears, and all the other details of his trial place etc. match, so we're assuming it's a mistake that was made only on the ship's indent.
It's possible that he was named as Patrick in earlier records such as his trial, but as those papers appear to have been destroyed, we can't be sure.
Does that make sense? I'm not very good at explaining things!
Cheers
Prue
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Hi All,
A thought: Catherine's death certificate might state how long she had been in the colony. PRUE
Catherine would have only been about 16 by her death certificate CHATSO
As you seem to have it, are you able to answer Prue's suggestion? :)
Sue
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Further thoughts... ;D
How do you know that Catherine arrived around 1843? Is that when their first child was born?
and Catherine would have only been about 16 by her death certificate don't know if that had any thing to do with his conviction
Don't think so - presumably the law in Ireland was similar to that in England at the same time, which was that girls could be married as young as 12 years old.
Do you have John's ticket of leave or his certificate of freedom? One or both should state the crime for which he was transported.
Added: D'oh. Forgot he was a "lifer" and therefore not (I think?) eligible for a ToL or CoF. Sorry :-(
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Hi Prue,
[i] Forgot he was a "lifer" and therefore not (I think?) eligible for a ToL or CoF. Sorry :-([/i]
Now I am not so sure about that.
I believe that even those convicted for life were eligible for both TOL and Pardon, both conditional and absolute.
Others will know more I guess
Will have a look about on the subject ;D
EDIT Adding. You seem to be correct about the CERTIFICATE of FREEDOM.
Lifers were not eleigible.
They could get a ToL and PARDON.
I'm glad I know that now, even if the rest of the world already did :o
Sue
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The rest of the world minus me ;D
I think I had read that somewhere but couldn't remember...thanks for sorting me out, Sue ;D ;D ;D
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Have just checked the book referred to in Reply#3 - Convict Applications to bring out families and no sign of any Donnellan; nearest surname being Donelly, and nothing that remotely resembles this couple.
Could this be their first child? (NSW BMDs)
V18441460 62/1844 Mary DONELAN, parents John, Catherine (no district shown on index)
Judith
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Hi there pruem
Thank you for explaining that about Patrick and John I am so into this research that I would hate to miss out on any thing
To Sue
I am the one that's not very good at explaining it appears that Catherine was very young when she married John by my records. it states that Catherine was 16 it also states (not known ) when she married on her death certificate but she was 13 years his junior so that how I worked it out.
also on her death certificate it says she was in the colony for about 60 years in 1903 her father's name was Terence don't know her mother name and I don't know John parents names I hope this helps.
Thank you for help Robyn
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Hi again to all
does anyone have access to the shipping records for Blenheim 1834 when Patrick came out I don't have anything on that
I know what his conviction was but would appreciate any other information like his parents etc. thank's again
Robyn
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The Blenheim arrived at Port Jackson Australia on 14 November 1834 after departing from Cork Ireland on 27th July 1834.
Captain was James Brown.
Surgeon superintendent was James Wilson RN.
There were 200 male prisoners.
The Guard consisted of 33 rank and file of the 50th Regiment of Foot.
There were also 8 women and 9 children on board under orders of Capt. Fothergill and Lieut. O'Halloran.
John Donnellan age 29 years was tried in Limerick 1833 for the Crime of Rape & was sentenced to Life.
He was a married man & his trade was a farm servant.
Transported age 30 yrs on the 'Blenheim' 27 Jul 1834 from Cork to Port Jackson arriving 14 Nov 1834.
He was assigned to Mr W Danga at Invermein in 1837.
Granted his TOL on 10 Jan 1843 at Scone.
Granted a CP in 1846 #987.
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Hi Merlin
Thank you for that information. it's seems that he got married around the same time as his conviction at 29 . He had been a busy boy it would be interesting to see the trial papers I wonder if there would be any news paper articles available Robyn
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It's very possible that the young lady he married was the one he was convicted for the crime against.
Family didn't agree to their 'being together' & of course he was punished within the law.
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Hi all,
Especially Prue and Sue,
Re LIFERS and pardons .... I have been trying to find my hardcopy reference text, perhaps I've lent the book .... But I feel that at some stage during the late 1840's or perhaps twas 1850's or 60's, those Lifers still alive in NSW were given Absolute Pardons via special legislation in NSW Legislative Assembly. I think W C Wentworth sponsored the Bill in the NSW Parliament. However, it is several years since the last time I re-read the particular book I have mentioned above.
Cheers, JM
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I have just lost my original message – must have accidentally hit some hot keys or something – so I hope the original doesn’t appear out of the ether and surprise me to death! :-[
I hope I’m not too late with this information, but I just stumbled over the query and thought I could at least tell you of my own experience.
When I was looking for information about one of my convicts I was told about the “Irish Gift” which was presented to Australia by Ireland at the time of our bicentennial (I think). Part of the “Gift” is the Ireland-Australia Transportation Database and that’s where I started.
One entry gave me the information about the man himself, but a further entry showed his wife being given free passage to Australia at the end of his sentence period of 7 years. The document referred to on this entry provided me with information of his wife’s maiden name and approximate age, the approximate ages and names of three children, plus the information that one child had died.
Next came a record of the ship she was “allocated” to, the date of departure, and the document reference was a list of passengers and showed that his second daughter had accompanied his wife on the voyage.
Yet another record showed that their son was also given free passage, almost exactly one year later.
From the Log of Logs and the Colonial Secretary’s correspondence I was able to find out a lot of details of the voyages and the safe arrival in NSW.
The prisoner indents on microfiche provided me with a description of my man, his birth place, age and occupation and date of trial.
His certificate of freedom was also listed on the original database. From the reference numbers provided I was able to purchase a copy, and that gave me the crime he’d committed.
It wasn’t as easy as it sounds, the trudging through the records isn’t as straightforward as I would like, but the people at the National Library were wonderful and in some cases we went through the learning process together.
I’m still hoping to find more about this family, but need to gather a bit more strength before I tackle the maze again.
Of course this is all very well and good provided the convict is Irish – I have no idea about how to go about tracking someone from another country, but the Colonial Secretary’s correspondence would be my first port of call if he/she wasn’t Irish.
I do hope you have heaps of success in this.
Philippa
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Hi to All
A big thank you to every one for working so hard on my family research I am trying to place an order now to comfirm John's connection to Catherine all I can find online to order is his certificate of convict pardon
Can any one tell me if I can order the shipping records were John arrived on the vessel Blenheim or do I have to go to the state records office and view them myself or is there a transcription agents that can do it for me Chatso58
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Hi Merlin
just wondering if you can help. you said John was granted his TOL on 10 /1/1843 at Scone and I cann't find it in the Archives I would like to order TOL papers if you don't mind giving me the rego no. as I think he may have been placed in Catherine care. as there first child was born in 1844
I have now received John pardon papers but didn't give me any more information then all you guys found
Thank for you help Robyn
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The date I gave you was from the NSW Government Gazettes.
On checking the SRNSW have his name listed as DONALLAN TOL #43/0024
So if you go here:
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?id=36
Surname=DONALLAN, Given name=John, Ship=Blenheim, Year=1834 the records will show up for you to order :D
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Hi MERLIN
Thank you for being so helpful Chatso58
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Hi to all
you have been so helpful in the past so I though I would give this a go. I have now received the ticket's of leave passport for John Donnellan but they never mention Catherine or give up any more information that was't already found
I have received new information that Catherine may have used her maiden name Catherine or Kitty McMahon arriving 3/10/1836 on the Duchess of Northberland but can't find it on shipping records any help would be appreciated
Chatso58
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There were only two McMahon's on the Duchess of Northumberland sailing 26 May 1836 from Cork & arriving 3 Oct 1836 Sydney as follows:
MCMAHON Catherine age 20yrs
MCMAHON Honora age 17yrs
Reference SRNSW: COD 394 44, 52 [4/1126], [4/2316.3] - NRS 906, 905
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Hello MERLIN
Thank you for that information. the 17 year old girl matches catherine's death certificate.but not sure about the name Honora ???
Chatso58
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Hello MERLIN
just wondering if you had access to those records if the girls father name was Terence thank's again Chatso58
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Hi Robyn,
This may be a red herring, but I will throw it into the ring for consideration!
Moffatt Arr. Sydney May 1841
Kitty McMAHON
Aged 21 years on St John's day 1841 (June 24?)
Farm servant
Native of Gort, Galway
Under the protection of Mrs SHAUGHNESSY
Read and write
Roman Catholic
Daughter of Terence and Bridget
On the same ship as a married couple:
Michael SHAUGHNESSY
Aged 23 (21 in application)
Farm Servant
Native of Gort, Galway
Read and write
Roman Catholic
Son of Bridget SHAUGHNESSY COLLINS
Margaret SHAUGHNESSY
Aged 22
House maid
Native of Gort, Galway
Reads
Roman Catholic
Parents deceased
This info is from the entitlement certificates and you can see an image of the index card here (click on the image in the right top corner) http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#collection=fs%3A1542665&surname=mcmahon&p=recordResults&searchType=close&givenName=kitty
Debra
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Hi Debra
Thank you for your reply.her age is close, I know her father was Terence McMahon and Catherine had a daughter named Bridget, may be after her mother. is Kitty another way of saying Catherine? and she was Roman Catholic
she may have used her maiden name to hide being a convict's wife ::)
Thank's again it's very much Appreciated
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Hi Robyn,
Yes, Kitty can be used as a pet name for Catherine. Despite what the family were told, Catherine McMAHON was not necessarily the woman that John married before he was transported. ;)
Debra
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Hi All
dose any one have any suggestions where I can find in Australia or Ireland or know someone that could do a look up in Ireland for John and Catherine marriage certificate,John trial, or is there any other convict records that would show John parents Chatso58
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Hi All
dose any one have any suggestions where I can find in Australia or Ireland or know someone that could do a look up in Ireland for John and Catherine marriage certificate,John trial, or is there any other convict records that would show John parents Chatso58
Hi Chatso,
Re. his trial and records, I gave the following reply back on page one of this thread:
I had a look at the Irish Convict Transportation Database too, but can't see John DONNELLAN...however on reading the info page:
While the collection of convict petitions dates from the beginning of transportation from Ireland to Australia in 1791, all transportation registers compiled before 1836 were destroyed in the Four Courts fire of June 1922. Therefore, if the person you are researching was convicted before 1836, but was not the subject of a petition, he or she will not appear on this database. In other words, the records from which the transportation database was compiled such as the transportation registers, convict reference files and petitions to government for pardon or commutation of sentence, are incomplete.
So unfortunately you are most probably out of luck in that regard.
In Ireland, at that early date, you will need to look at church records for a marriage, but without knowing where they married it would be a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack. YOu could try a post on the Ireland board, giving as much information as possible in your request for help searching for the marriage.
Cheers
Prue
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Hello Prue
Thank you for your reply and for that information
I have 4 tickets of leave and his pardon papers but they have very little information on them. it's unfortunate that the shipping records don't have more information about the convict :'(
Chatso58
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Hi Chatso,
I had previously looked at newspapers for John, but found nothing. A new batch have come online, and we have struck gold!! Merlin must be psychic! I will post the article here for the benefit of everyone who has been working on this.
http://newspapers.bl.uk/blcs/
ASSIZES INTELLIGENCE .
Freeman's Journal and Daily Commercial Advertiser (Dublin, Ireland), Friday, March 8, 1833; Issue N/A
Limerick Assizes
John Donnellan was tried for felonious violation of the person of Catharine M'Namara, at Killeely. The prisoner was a tall, strong, course looking man; and the prosecutrix a slight girl of nineteen years, respectably dressed, of fair and agreeable features. She described the outrage committed on her person with apparent reluctance, great modesty, and frequently interrupted the painful narrative with audible symptoms of real and grievous affection. The prisoner is a farmer in the North Liberties, and pretended courtship to his victim, whom he induced to accompany him in a walk on Sunday evening, towards Killeely, where he perpetrated the offence under circumstances which raised the sympathy of a crowded court. She delivered her evidence of the whole transaction in a manner which raised her character in the estimation of all present; and her tale was perfectly unimpeded on the cross examination. The prisoner received a good character on the defence, and the jury were in private consultation for above an hour, when the friends of the accused began to tremble for his fate. A Roman Catholic clergyman was procured, and the prosecutrix consenting to the arrangement, both parties were married in the grand jury room; shortly after which the jury returned with a verdict of guilty against the prisoner for a capital crime.
John Donnellan was then asked by the clerk of the crown why sentence of death and execution should not be had against him.
Prisoner- I am married, my Lord.
Judge Jebb- The court will take no notice of it, and it is my duty now to pronounce the sentence of the law upon you. The jury have found you, John Donellan, guilty of the grossest outrage that can be committed on a female, and your crime is aggravated when we consider the helpless condition of your innocent victim, and as it appears a modest and devout young woman. She is indeed much to be pitied; obliged to leave the protection of her father's house in consequence of her forlorn situation and broken character, of which you have been the cause. You, a strong powered man, after courtship to her, took advantage of the poor creature's weakness, a slight delicate girl, by terribly violating her person in a moment when she confided in your protection as a friend. You, John Donellan, did not attempt to make any atonement whatever for this outrage until the last hour, when you found your life was in jeopardy. The sentence of the court is that you, John Donellan, be hanged by the neck until you are dead, on the 20th of April.
The prisoner left the bar little affected at the judgement of the Court.
Well!! :o :o :o I'm speechless.
I can't see a follow up, but obviously the sentence was commuted to transportation for life.
McNAMARA ??? Looks like we have to start the search for Catherine all over again. ::)
Debra
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Oh, wow :o :o :o
What a fantastic write-up! And how bizarre that the marriage took place within the courtroom...and she then (apparently) followed him all the way to Oz? Amazing!
Well found, Debra :D
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Hi All
A BIG THANK YOU to all that have worked on my research. I would never have found out so much about John and Catherine with out all your help. and words can't tell you of the joy and excitement of knowing what really happen I always thought the crime was against Catherine. and she must had loved him to have followed him to Australia they made a good life for them selves together they had 4 daughters and John and Catherine and where will respected in there community. this is what genealogy is all about thank's again ;D
it is very much appreciated Robyn
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Hi All
you have all been so helpful in the past I thought I would give this a go I was wondering if some kind person would look this up for me in the shipping records I have found a Catherine Donlin arriving at Port Phillip in 1840 reel 2143a [4/4813 ] page 31 I have seen Donnellan spelt wrong so many times your help would be appreciated Chatso58
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Catherine Donlin/Donlan arrived aboard the ship China 2 May 1840 at Port Phillip from London via Plymouth 27 Nov 1839
Age: 20yrs
Calling: Housemaid
Native Place: Tipperary
Religion: RC
Can Read
Her name has been transcribed with both those spellings listed above from the passenger list.
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Hi MERLIN
Thank you. this Catherine doesn't seem to match up
Chatso58
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Hi MERLIN
I was hoping you could give me some more information about the
Catherine and Honora McMahon arriving in Sydney 3/10/1836
on the Duchness of Northumberland.
Catherine aged 20 years
Honor aged 17
you found them some time ago. Catherine's age matches up with her death certificate, I am unsure now about the name McNamara it could be a mistake by the newpaper. as on Catherine death certificate it give her name as McMahon or may be the family didn't know
Robyn
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Re John Donnellan, you most likely know by now that a file on John Donnellan is available in the UK National Archives at Kew, see http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C12629143. The file summary states that a petition was signed by 10 members of the jury, who wished their verdict to be set aside in view of the marriage of the accused and complainant, and that the wife of the condemned John Donnellan wished for her husband to be returned from Australia.
This file was created 5 years after John Donnellan had been transported, and as such it is clear that his wife, Catherine McMahon, had not joined him in Australia until a number of years after conviction. It also confirms that the complainant/wife's name was McMahon, not McNamara, as reported in the press.
The article quoted by a contributor from the Freeman's Journal is interesting in that it states that John Donnellan, and the complainant, were married in the Grand Jury room while the jury was deliberating. There is, however, a record of the marriage in archives of St Mary's Parish, Limerick, for the 5th of March, 1833. You probably haven't been able to find this because the Register throws a spanner in the works and describes the groom as 'John Donnelly'. However there is no doubt that this is the same man as the trial took place on the 5th of March, the same date of the marriage entry in the register.
I have found his prison records and he was consigned to the charge of Limerick prison on the 5th of March 1833 and the sentence of the Court for hanging was scheduled for the 20th of April 1833. He was reprieved to transportation for life on the 15th of March.
The entry in the Parish marriage register states as follows:-
'A dispensation in the closed time of Lent being granted by the Very Rev. Dr. John Hanishan (?) V.G - John Donnelly to Catherine McMahon were married by Rev. Fr Conlay (?), witnesses William ? and William Gibson'
This dispensation was given by the Vicar General of the Diocese of Limerick to allow the marriage during Lent, and would only have been granted in the event of a grave emergency. The names of the Vicar General, the officiating priest and witnesses are not legible as the scan is at the end of the page and heavily shadowed. If you send me your email address I will email you a copy of the parish entry offline.
There are, as noted, a number of inaccuracies in the primary and secondary sources. In the first instance the Freeman's Journal incorrectly names the complainant as Catherine McNamara. Secondly the Parish record incorrectly names the groom as John Donnelly, but the bride is accurately recorded as Catherine McMahon. Finally the entry in the record at Kew records the trail year as 1832, not 1833. However, as I say, these are clear inaccuracies which have probably led you off track.
Another report of the trial can be found in the Belfast Newsletter on March 15, 1833, which in summary repeats the basics of the report in the Freeman's Journal, and also names the complainant as Catherine McNamara. An identical report as that in the Freeman's Journal also appears in the Kerry Evening Post dated Saturday, March 09, 1833. As such, therefore, it appears that this news was syndicated and erroneously repeated the name of the complainant in all reports.