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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: wilcoxon on Wednesday 10 February 10 11:30 GMT (UK)
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Does anyone know where Cae Clogyn is, could possibly be in the Gwersyllt, Hope, Caergwrle area.
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http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php?title=Place:Chester_Registration_District%2C_1871_Census_Street_Index_C-F found by Googling seems to suggest it's in the Hope area.
Katie
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I can remember the name from my childhood, but would like to know exactly where it was, my Mum used to tell me she would take me and leave me there. :o :o :o
I don`t think she ever did . :)
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If you have access to the 1871 census, go to: Flintshire/Hope/District10/Page12 or RG10/3737/Folio50
You'll find it is a 32 acre farm lying between Mount Pleasant and Pont Plasmaen.
I'm trying to pinpoint any of these places on my 1870s OS map, but so far cannot find them. Pont Plasmaen suggests it might be somwhere near the river Alyn.
Will look again.
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Found it ! I was wrong about the River Alyn, it's a different one.
Cae Clogyn is in Cymau, south west of Cefn y Bedd. If you enter Cymau into Google Maps, the pin indicating its position appears almost excatly where Cae Clogyn appears on the old map.
I'll send you a scan in a PM so you can do the comparison yourself.
:)
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Just noticed that on the old map it's spelled " Cae Clogwyn", which makes more sense in Welsh.
Clogwyn = crag or cliff, whereas Clogyn = cloak.
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Yes I`ve found it, and funny enough I was there not long ago.
There is a lane up the side of the Red Lion ( now called Frwdd Inn ), up there is a little Parkland with a small lake. Carry on along the path across the field , there is an open coal face ,and you come to Cymau.
I remember when I was little , the families from Gwersyllt used to go for a walk on a Sunday over the border into Flints. As soon as you crossed the Alyn in Cefnybedd you could have a drink. :o :o :o
A treat was a bag of crisps and bottle of pop.
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Hi
I am new to Roots - came across it when I googled "Cae Clogyn". I am interested
as I live near to where it stood. Can you give me more info. please as to how it
came to be mentioned in the first instance, I know there is quite a bit of history to the place,
Many thanks.
Countrylover
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I was just talking with my cousin about what we used to do and where we went when we were little.
I live in Gwersyllt, and can remember Mum saying she would leave me at Cae Clogyn. We used to go for walks up the lane at the side of the Red Lion Frwdd, and over the fields.
Apart from that I have no real knowledge of the place, but I do take my dog up there to the Quarry Park, we were there on Sunday. :)
You can tell me more of the history. :)
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Hi.
Brief details as follows -
The farm Cae Clogyn or Cae Clogwyn was the scene of a "crime of passion" murder in 1901. The farm was very prestigous in its day and had its own farm bailiff. The lady of the house was a great beauty and her Bailiff was madly in love with her. Unfortunately for him her affections lay elsewhere and on the day she was due to leave
and move to her beau she was confronted by him in the kitchen. The date was 3rd. July 1901. Determined that if he could not have her then no other man would - he shot her. He then turned the gun on himself - killing himself outright. His victim however lay with severe head injuries. She was taken to Wrexham Infirmary (imagine the journey - horse-power!) where she died 2 days later. This crime of passion shocked the Nation and was reported in the London Gazette.
The farmhouse stood empty and fell into ruins. The substantial farm buildings stood and were used by local farmers for housing livestock up until the land was quarried in the 1960`s for sand and gravel.
All that was left of Cae Clogwyn was scooped away. Although this area was known as "the old Quarry" it was only in fact quarried from the 60`s to the 80`s. The path that runs from the Cymau end to the now Nature Reserve runs along the line that was the original old drive to the farm.
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I`m curious, what was the lady`s name.
In 1901 there are only two people at Cae Clogyn.
RG13; Piece: 3379; Folio: 137; Page: 4.
Joe Guest In charge of building 34 Single, servant b Hope parish
William Puppel Griffiths 14 Single servant b Caergwrle.
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Hi
Joseph Guest was the Bailiff. The lady was a Sydney Jones.
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This is an interesting tale, and very very sad, it seems that Joe and Sydney may have known each other for quite a while. They lived in the same area.
As poor Sydney was taken to Wrexham then her death would be registered there. Joe was in Hope, and would have been registered Chester.
Deaths Sep 1901 .
Guest Joe 34 Chester 8a 273
Jones Sidney 40 Wrexham 11b 165 ???
I wonder if this is the lady, there are not many Sydney`s around.
1901
RG13; Piece: 3379; Folio: 178; Page: 17
Bryn Golau, Cymmau.
Sydney Jones F Single 38 head. farmer, own account b Liverpool
Maggie F Jones dau Single 18 dressmaker own acc at home b Hope.
I think this confirms it :)
1891 RG12; Piece: 2870; Folio 103; Page 15;
Cae Clogyn Farm .
Sarah Jones 68 head Single, b Hope
Sydney Jones 28 neice Single ,general dom b Liverpool.
Margaret Florence Jones 8 neice b Hope
Joseph Guest 24 Single, servant b Hope
Thomas Edwd Whitley 14 Single, servant b Hope
Edwin Jones 40 Single, servant b Hope
Who was Maggie`s Daddy. ???
1881 RG11; Piece: 3566; Folio: 82; Page: 15
Cae Clogyn farm
William Jones 92 Head Widower Farmer of 52 acres b Hope
Sarah Jones 60 dau unm housekeeper b Hope
William Jones 50 son Unm labourer b Hope
Sydney Jones 21 Gr Dau, Unm dairy maid b Hope
Jesse Cox 16 male farm servant b Buckely.
1881 RG11; Piece: 3566; Folio: 50; Page: 41;
Caeau , Caergwrle
Joseph Guest 58 head labourere b Hope
Elizabeth Guest 32 wife b Llanarmon Denbs
Joe Guest 14 son b Hope
Rachel Guest 8 dau b Hope
1871 RG10; Piece: 3737; Folio: 50; Page: 12;
Cae Clogyn
William Jones 82 Head farmer b Hope
Margaret Jones 78 wife b "
Sarah Jones 50 dau Un b "
William Jones 40 son unm farmer b "
Robert Rowland 17 unm servany b Liverpool
Sidney Jones 11 gr dau b Liverpool.
1871 RG10; Piece: 3737; Folio: 21; Page: 38
Brickfield Caergwrle
Joseph Guest 37 widower farm lab b Hope
Mary Guest 14 dau b "
Catherine Guest 8 dau b "
Ellen Guest 6 dau b "
Joseph Guest 4 son b "
Just a "maybe "
1861 RG9; Piece: 2670; Folio: 10; Page: 14
10 Pall Mall Ct, St Pauls, Liverpool
Hy Jones 29 porter b Wales
Ann Jones 25 wife b Wales
Hugh Jones 3 son B Liverpool
Sidney A Jones 2 dau b "
Wm Hy Jones 4 Mo son b "
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Fascinating - her daughter was Margaret Florence!!
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I`ve spotted that Joseph Guest snr was a widower in 1871, but by 1881 he has a nice young wife about 26 years younger than him. :o
1861 RG9; Piece: 4277; Folio: 132; Page: 5
Cae Estyn Caergwrle
Joseph Guest 34 ag lab b Hope
Ann Guest 27 wife b County Down, Bourne , Ireland
Mary Guest 4 dau b Hope
Jane Guest 2 dau b "
This must be Ann, and it seems she may have died as the result of giving birth to little Joe, how sad.
Deaths Mar 1867
Guest, Ann 33 Wrexham 11b 229
Births Mar 1867
Guest Joseph Wrexham 11b 297
I`m guessing this is the first marriage.
North Wales Marriage 1854 Free BMD Dec qtr. 1854
GUEST Joseph / MICKMAIN Ann . Hope, St Cynfarch
And this is the second.
North Wales Marriage1871. Free BMD Dec qtr, 1854
GUEST Joseph / JONES Elizabeth. Hope, St Cynfarch
Back to Cae Clogyn
1861 RG9; Piece: 4278; Folio: 22; Page: 16
Caeclogwyn
William Jones 70 head farmer b Hope
Margaret Jones 68 wife b Hope
Sarah Jones 37 unm dau b "
Ithel Jones 35 SON unm b "
William Jones 30 son unm b "
William Jones 10 grandson b Brymbo
Elizabeth Evans 14 house servant b Hope
1851 HO107; Piece: 2502; Folio: 83; Page: 19
Cae Clogyn
William Jones 55 farmer b Hope
Margrett Jones 54 wife b "
Ithell Jones 28 son unm, mason b "
George Jones 26 son unm, mason b "
Sarah Jones 30 dau , unm b "
Thomas Jones 23 son unm masonb "
Wm Jones 21 son unm mason b "
George Jones 10 nephew b "
That`s it , 1841 for this area is missing.
Joseph Guest and Ann Mickmain are proving hard to find in 1851.
I expect the marriage entries in Hope PRs will shed some light on their fathers.
The Tithe maps will tell us who the land owner and occupants of Cae Clogyn will be when they were drawn up.
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Hopefully I might have some more info. Monday
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Just a "maybe "
1861 RG9; Piece: 2670; Folio: 10; Page: 14
10 Pall Mall Ct, St Pauls, Liverpool
Hy Jones 29 porter b Wales
Ann Jones 25 wife b Wales
Hugh Jones 3 son B Liverpool
Sidney A Jones 2 dau b "
Wm Hy Jones 4 Mo son b "
I`m not really sure now about this Sydney, there is no Henry with the rest of the Jones family in 1851, and as all the other sons are masons, this just doesn`t seem to be right. ???
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Mystery solved. Visited Heritage Centre, Bersham, today, to check their Archives (had been to Hawarden yesterday - but on wrong track!!). Staff very helpful. The story of this tragedy is reported in FULL in the North Wales Guardian dated July 5th. 1901. It really was a sad case. I had actually originally, a few years ago, been shown an article in the 1901 London Gazette (complete with artist`s impression). The report in the North Wales Guardian gives much more information on this tragic event.
For many years after - many parents - used to "threaten" their off-spring with being "left at Cae Clogwyn".
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Thanks for that Countrylover, I can say that it was for very very many years, that the threat was carried out.
Was I really that naughty ::) ::) ::)
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Hello,
it has been really interesting reading this thread :)
I came across your post while searching for Joseph Guest and first wife Ann Mickmain. Joseph was my great great grandfather, and his second wife (Elizabeth Jones) was my great great grandma.
I did hear recently from my mum's first cousin that there was a 'murderer' on the Guest side of the family, and no other details. This must be the sad tale he was alluding to, about my great granduncle shooting Sydney Jones. Such a tragic story!
Can anyone please tell me how I go about obtaining the newspaper article that was printed in the North Wales Guardian dated July 5th. 1901?
Many thanks
Rachel, Wellington, NZ.
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http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search.
You can get a report from another newspaper -Manchester Evening News
on this site, but you have to buy credits.
The resource I use stops at 1900,
Have sent a PM
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See also:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,587572.msg4386805.html#msg4386805
and the following posts - have told Rachel about the Times report.
gnu
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Hi Lubok. I have just checked my e-mail and read your post regarding your distant relative Joseph Guest.
I will try and "dig out" my copy of the North Wales paper article for you - which I obtained from visiting the Archives.
Regarding the London Gazette - I actually saw the original newspaper which is in the possession of my husband`s
second cousin and his wife. They also had a photo of Joseph Guest standing alongside Sydney outside the farm with a horse and some dogs - taken in happier times!! and other bit and pieces which had been handed down.
Kind regards
Countrylover
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Hi everyone, and thanks to wilcoxon, gnu, and countrylover for your posts :-)
It's interesting that your husband's 2nd cousin and his wife have the original newspaper, one hundred years on, Countrylover! I would be glad to read any articles to find out more, and maybe see a photo of Joseph. Gnu has told me about the Times article, which is very good.
When I found out this about Joseph Guest it was getting late here - today I will try my librarys online newspaper collection to see what newspapers they have (though they probably wont have the North Wales one)
Best wishes,
Rachel.
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1901
Bryn Golau, Cymmau.
Sydney Jones F Single 38 head. farmer, own account b Liverpool
Maggie F Jones dau Single 18 dressmaker own acc at home b Hope.
After her mothers death Maggie seems to have stayed in the area, in March 1904 she married Herbert Williams in a civil marriage at Hawarden.
Herbert was a coal miner also born at Hope and was one year older .
They soon had two sons, William Kenneth . J. b July qtr 1905 , and Herbert Sydney b July qtr 1908
They were living at Jersey House, Caergwrle a few years after the birth of these boys.
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My husband`s Aunty`s sister was married to Herbert Sydney. Have found my copies of the articles
which appeared in the North Wales Guardian - dated 5th July 1901 - inquest etc. There is mention of
Joseph Guest`s brother, at the Inquest, a William Guest described as "a man whose upright bearing and
smart appearance bespoke the soldier".
Countrylover
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Many thanks for your messages, Wilcoxon and Countrylover :)
Thanks for telling me about Sydney's daughter, post 1901 census, Wilcoxon. I wasn't sure who she married until you mentioned Herbert William's name.
Joseph Guest's oldest brother was William Henry Guest, b 1855 - d 21 Nov 1916 in Paddington, London. He was 12 years older than Joseph (b 1867).
My notes on brother William say:
Originally enlisted 19 Aug 1876. Then again on 4 April 1900. Was a sergeant in the Royal Horse Artillery, B.B. Battery. (No. 8444), Regimental No. 1216. Discharged 3rd April 1901 in Christchurch. Age 45 yrs and 11 months.
Had scar on right elbow.
Enlisted again 16 Oct 1914. Discharged 4 Sept 1916, age 50. Trade: Superintendent of Gardens.
Served in India for one year and four months -- source: British Army Pension Records.
It's good to know that what is mentioned about William being a soldier (in the newspaper), fits.
Best wishes,
Rachel
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Have just read this thread and find this story of Joseph Guest and Cae Clogyn or Clogwyn very interesting..... Joseph Guest is my Great Grandmothers brother and ive never heard of this before. Its all very interesting!! I have been looking if I can obtain a copy of the North Wales Guardian and London Gazette for this time but cannot find anything. If anybody could let me know how to get hold of it and have any other information I would be extremely grateful.
Regards
Julie McNair
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As well as the 1901 incident Sydney was involved in a court case in June 1883. The Manchester Courier entitled it "A Welsh Girl's Revenge".
Sydney is described as ".... niece to William Jones, a farmer residing at Cae Clogwyn".
regards
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;D ;D ;D
Very interesting, especially as it names the father of her child Margaret Florence Jones , he was David Roberts.
I found a report in another paper, she threatened to throw a bucket of manure over David Roberts, again a gun was involved.
I must have been like the Wild West up Cymmau way .
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Yes,
There are reports in several papers - a great story.
No wonder "Cae Clogwyn" was used to threaten in earlier days!
regards
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Hi Julie, this link takes you to the London Gazette Home Page. On the right hand side half way down you'll see a link for Historians. Click one of the search options - they're both quite straightforward to use.
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/
Regards, Phil.
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Hi Julie, this link takes you to the London Gazette Home Page. On the right hand side half way down you'll see a link for Historians. Click one of the search options - they're both quite straightforward to use.
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/
Regards, Phil.
I can`t find anything at all about the incident, it seems to be all legal notices.
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Have just read this thread and find this story of Joseph Guest and Cae Clogyn or Clogwyn very interesting..... Joseph Guest is my Great Grandmothers brother and ive never heard of this before. Its all very interesting!! I have been looking if I can obtain a copy of the North Wales Guardian and London Gazette for this time but cannot find anything. If anybody could let me know how to get hold of it and have any other information I would be extremely grateful.
Regards
Julie McNair
Hi Julie, I think we've been in touch via GenesReunited a few years ago?
Your great grandmother, Eleanor "Ellen" Kirkham (nee Guest) married 2nd husband Thomas "Tom" Henry Ernest Gould (who was my great granduncle, for he was brother to my great grandfather, Herbert William Gould.... we have a case of two brothers marrying two sisters,.. well, half-sisters).
I have Ellen and Tom's children down as Doris and Thomas Ernest "Ernie" Gould. Was Doris your grandmother, and were her children: Constance Gould Ankers, Ronald Gould Ankers, and Frank Gould Ankers? Which line do you descend from?
That bit that Wilcoxon mentioned:
I found a report in another paper, she threatened to throw a bucket of manure over David Roberts, again a gun was involved.
I must have been like the Wild West up Cymmau way .
was very interesting!
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Hi Rachel
Thats right we were in touch a few years ago. We both come from the Guest Line and very interesting its turning out to be too..... Yes my Grandmother was Doris Gould and my Father was Ronald Ankers (my maiden name being Ankers).
I came across this forum and this story last Friday and have been quite excited about the whole thing that I went into our local History Museum yesterday to get a copy of the story from the North Wales Guardian. Its quite a story!! Whilst I was there the gentleman who was in charge told me that somebody else had recently looked up info on this story and they were from Australia. I knew it must have been you due to our past comunication.
I have very little in the way of photos of the Guest and Gould side of the family and would be very grateful if you have any that I could have. Any photos that I have of my Great Grand Mother Eleanor Guest (kirkham/Gould), Thomas Gould, Doris Gould, and my father and aunty and uncle I would glady share. If you want to share these my email addy is (*).
Hope to hear from you soon
Julie
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=613363.new;topicseen#new
Have been searching in vain for the illustration ???
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Yes ive also looked at the London Gazzette webpage and cannot find anything on this story.....as you have said it seems to be all legal notices. Not sure how to get a hold of this edition at all :-(
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Joe Guest was my maternal grandmothers brother. Rachel Guest was born in 1872 and died in 1920. She was married to Herbert Gould . My mothers maiden name was Dorothy Gould. I have a photograph of joe together with two items which belonged to him. I also have a photograph of Rachel.
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Diddorol driest Ben!!!
I would walk up the drive of Cae Clogwyn to visit my Nain and Taid and uncle Richard 60 years ago--I can still recall what the derelict farm looked like and was aware that there was some frightening stories associated with the place--
I would emphasise that I DID NOT request spell check to change "drost ben"
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http://welshnewspapers.llgc.org.uk/en/home
Story can be found here.
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http://newspapers.library.wales/search?range%5Bmin%5D=1901&range%5Bmax%5D=1919&query=%22Cae+Clogwyn%22
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Goodness! This was three years ago but then moment I saw "Cae Clogyn/Clogwyn" in my e.mails I remembered this thread
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=610085.0
I was wondering if this Guest family were linked to Joe.