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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Warwickshire => Topic started by: Aks on Thursday 18 February 10 14:52 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to identify one Walter Thomas Payne, who died in September 1918 in France while serviing in WW1. According to the entry in the Soldiers Died in the Great War database, he was born in Hockley, Warwick and enlisted in Handsworth, Staffs. The problem is that I do not know exactly how old he was or when he was born.
(In fact, he was a bombardier with the Royal Field Artillery, 36th Div. Ammunition Column, Territorial Force, reg. n°s 2434 and 810748, and I have the medal cards and other military information. I have not been able to find his service records.)
My questions are :
If he gave his birthplace as Hockley, Warwick, would this be the town or district in the northwest part of Birmingham?
Would he then have perhaps been baptized at the All Saints Church, assuming he was C of E?
Are the parish registers for this (or other) church(es) in Hockley available?
Does anyone have any other suggestions as to how I could track him down?
Many thanks,
Alan
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This link could be the right Hockley, lots of information on it here.
http://billdargue.jimdo.com/placenames-gazetteer-a-to-y/places-h/hockley/
Tressle
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Would his death certificate have no age on it either do you think? He is on the overseas index so I am not sure if sending for his death certificate would help.
It seems funny they have where he was born but not when.
Tressle
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there are only 3 walter paynes born in warwickshire on the 1901
1. born in nuneaton in 1892 still there in 1901
2. born in leamington in 1893 still there in 1901
3. born in birmingham in 1894 still there in 1901
furthermore there are only 3 walter thomas paynes born in warwickshire between 1870-1903
1. oct/nov/dec qtr 1889 in nuneaton
2. jan/feb/mar qtr 1893 in warwick
3. jul/aug/sept qtr 1893 in birmingham
there is only one death recorded of a walter thomas payne
1. walter thomas payne aged 90 died in 1983 in warwick birth date 19/1/1893
this walter seems to tie in with the birth in warwick in 1893
so by process of elimination the one in birmingham would appear to be the most likely one
here is the 1901 census for that one
1901
RG13/2839/29/13
james.r.payne age 50. b. kidderminster. occ. gold jeweller. head
annie.b.payne age 38. b. kildare,curragh,ireland. occ. charwoman. wife
robert.e.payne age 25. b. birmingham occ. carpet felt worker. son
laura payne age 20. b. ditto. occ. swivel polisher. daughter
annie payne age 18. b. ditto. occ. swivel polisher. daughter
lily payne age 16. b. ditto. occ. metal chair maker. daughter
walter payne age 7. b. ditto. son
richard payne age 5. b. ditto. son
living at;59,little king street,st.saviours,birmingham,warwickshire
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I was just going to post the one with father James Robert as in 1911 he is down as Walter Thomas with these parents.
The address in 1901 is Little King Street, I have been trying to find out if that street is in the Hockley District.
Tressle
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Thanks Tressle and Wozzle (what wonderful names!) for your replies and analysis and also for the super link.
It looks like that might be him born in 1893 : I was actually hoping he might be older. I suppose his birth certificate would give a more precise birth location.
Is there an overseas death index? Would I be able to order a death certificate for someone who died overseas in WW1? Perhaps I should look or ask this question in the military section.
Many, many thanks,
Alan
I
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do not want to put a fly in the ointment but just found a walter payne on the 1901 born 1893 in birmingham
living in aston which according to the link posted by tressle is on the boundary of hockley
1901
RG13/2864/175/15
daniel payne age 46. b. shipston on stour. head
fanny age 52. b. ely. wife
arthur smith age 24. b. birmingham. son
john payne age 17. b. ditto. son
albert payne age 15. b. ditto. son
george payne age 14. b. ditto. son
alice payne age 12. b. ditto. daughter
edith payne age 10. b. ditto. daughter
walter payne age 8. b. ditto. son
living at;st.andrews,aston.
still think the other one is a better bet though
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Hi
I agree with Wozzle that we cannot be certain that is him in the first census as other possibilities and yes Aks you can order a death certificate but they can be quite limited in the information they give- so just a warning that there is a possibility it may not tell you any more than you already know.
I will see if I can read the number on the index - when you order it from GRO remember it is from the overseas index.
Tressle
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Deaths , GRO WAR DEATHS ARMY OTHER RANKS (1914 to1921) 1914 - 1921
Page 3 of 3 PAYNE-PAYNE
The reference looks like A. (smudge) 219
Not a lot of use I know, sorry, I am not sure if anyone else can make it out.
Tressle
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Thanks again Tressle and Wozzle.
I've seen a few references suggesting that St. Saviours is in or near Hockley, such as this census index : http://www.hunimex.com/warwick/freecens/2390_street_index.html
So, I suspect that the family of James and Annie might be the correct one. I'll check them out more.
Thanks a lot for the overseas death index, as I don't seem to have this on Ancestry, although as you suggested, Tressle, it doesn't sound that great.
Thanks again for the history of Birmingham website!
Alan
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Little King Street was in Hockley, between Bridge St West and New John Street.
It was shown on the 1962 A to Z (-see the map at http://www.bham.de/roads_frameset.html), but the whole area was redeveloped in the 60's and changed considerably.
Tower blocks stand on the site today - I don't think any trace of the road survives.
According to the churches list at http://www.bham.de, St Saviours church was close by at the corner of Bridge St West and Villa St and was demolished in 1962.
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Thanks a lot, Jvb. That's a really great map. I was wondering why I couldn't find Little King street on Mappy! It's great to get some info from (presumably) someone who knows the area.
Alan
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going by the 1901 census of james and annie payne it would appear that annie is james second wife and going by the ages of the children i would imagine only the 2 youngest children are james/annies
will have a look for james in earlier censuses
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1891
RG12/2386/65/14
james.r.payne age 40. b. kidderminster. occ. jeweller. head
margaret age 38. b. aston. wife
james.h. age 18. b. birmingham. occ. coach and harness furniture driver. son
lavinia age 17. b. ditto. occ. watch chain maker. daughter
james.r. age 15. b. ditto. occ. printer in press room. son
clarender age 12. b. ditto. daughter
laura.r.a. age 10. b. ditto. daughter
annie age 8. b. ditto. daughter
lilly age 6. b. ditto. daughter
living at;smith street,st.george,birmingham
2 sons called james(would imagine one of these james's is robert on the 1901)
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here is margarets death
margaret payne
y.o.r. 1891
qtr; oct/nov/dec
dist;birmingham
vol; 6d
page; 76
age at death; 39
est birth year; 1852
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and here is james's second marriage
james robert payne/annie bond foxall
y.o.r. 1892
qtr; jul/aug/sept
dist; birmingham
vol; 6d
page; 187
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1881
RG11/2991/82/23
james.r.payne age 30. b. kidderminster. occ. jeweller. head
margaret age 28. b. aston. wife
harry age 8. b. birmingham. son
lavinia age 7. b. ditto. daughter
robert age 5. b. ditto. son
clarinda age 2. b. ditto. daughter
laura age 8mnths. b. ditto. daughter
living at;54,back smith street,st.george,birmingham
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here is probably james first marriage
james robert payne/margaret ball
y.o.r. 1871
qtr;oct/nov/dec
dist; west bromwich
vol; 6b
page; 1059
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1871
RG10/3124/92/26
lavinia payne age 54. b. wolverley,worcs. head(wid)
james robert frederick payne age 19. b. kidderminster. occ. jeweller. son
laura marise payne age 19.. b. ditto. occ. press work(umbrellas). daughter
eli edward payne age 24. b. ditto. occ. collier. visitor(unm)
clara payne age 8. b. hartshill,staffs. grand daughter
living at st.stephen,st.george,birmingham
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1861
RG9/2157/61/37
lavinia payne age 44. b. wolverley. occ. seamstress. head(wid)
robert age 10. b. kidderminster(obviously this is james). occ. -----? piercer. son
laura age 9. b. ditto. occ. gold chain maker. daughter
living at;2,vampyn court,st.george,birmingham
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1851
HO107/2038/55/12
lavinia payne age 34. b. wolverley. occ. seamstress. head(wid)
william payne age 13. b. kidderminster. occ. carpet weavers assistant. son
richard payne age 11. b. ditto. occ. carpet weavers assistant. son
eli edward payne age 5. b. ditto. son
henry payne age 4. b. ditto. son
james robert perl? payne age 6mnths. son
sophia jacobs age 21. b. wilton,wiltshire. occ. house servant. lodger
eli hill age 31. b. wolverley. occ. coalminer. lodger(unm)
living at;horns buildings,kidderminster,worcs
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although at this moment i cannot find the family in 1841 i think this might be the marriage
ribbesford is within the kidderminster area
and with the eldest child called william this is a possibility
also on the 1861 census posted there is an eli hill living with them also born in wolverley think this could possibly be lavinias brother
william payne/lavinia hill
married on the 11th october 1836 at ribbesford,worcs
ext rec I.G.I.
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here is lavinias christening
lavinia hill baptised on the 14th april 1816 at wolverley,worcs
parents william/sarah hill
other children of william and sarah
elias hill christened 29/12/1818(this is probably the eli on the 1861 census)
clarinda hill christened on the 26/8/1821(james payne and his first wife margaret also had a child named clarinda naming pattern here)
i am almost certain now this is the right marriage for lavinia
p.s. just hope this is the right line for walter thomas payne(fingers crossed)
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Did you every find out if this was the Walter Thomas Payne you were seeking? The names of the family you quote are confusing. James Robert Perl Payne was actually Robert Peel Payne but he added James and dropped Peel from time to time.
In 1919 Annie Payne was corresponding with the Military for the early discharge of his brother quoting the death in service (WW1) of Walter Thomas Payne and the death of his brother in the Boer war saying she had given two sons to the Country and she needed the other back as Robert (her husband) was not well.
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Your Thomas Walter PAYNE
is on the 1918 Absent Voters Electoral Register.
Reg Details- 810748 , Bdr, 36 D RFA
Year 1918
Address- 146 Church Street, Aston , Lozells ward. Warwickshire
Also on Absent voters list at same address, same year-
Richard PAYNE-
Reg - T4244684, Pte, 31 Lco Asc
I hope this helps.
There are a number of PAYNE's buried at KEY HILL Cemetery, HOCKELY , in Birmingham's Jewellery Quarter.
Bo
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I just wanted to apologize to all of the contributors to this thread, as I have been occupied elsewhere and haven't been able to follow this up. Thank you very much for all of this information.
In answer to Brummy Bob's question, I am not sure, however this Walter Payne seems to be a little too young to correspond to my search. I am curious to know how you know that Annie Payne was so corresponding with the military in 1919.
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If your enquiry is Hockley, Warwickshire, then there is also a place called Hockley at Galley Common, Nuneaton, which was once Hockley Stockingford, Nuneaton.
In 1889 a Walter Thomas Payne birth was registered in the Nuneaton District.
Regards Mark
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Hi Alan
I know this is a late reply to your original question but I was wondering if you where able to find out anymore info on Walter Thomas Payne in regards to his military history? My Great Uncle was Thomas Moore driver 35697 and he is buried in Bertenacre Military Cemetery in Fletre, France along with your Walter Payne and I was thinking it would be likely that they where together at the time of death and are buried in the same row. Thomas was K.I.A 8/9/18. I am having trouble trying to find out 1, how they died and 2, what battles they fought in.
Kind Regards
Pauline
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Sorry I meant to enclose this photo with my last post also. Not sure if you have seen this before but it is the Graves Registration Report Form for them.
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Dear Pauline,
This goes back a few years so I have to refresh my memory. I also feel somewhat guilty towards those that answered me on this thread, because although I spent a lot of time on this subject, I didn't get anything clear enough to post about. However, I digress ...
As regards this regiment, what I have are some photos of the war diaries that I took at the National Archives which detail their movements in the days leading up to the death of your great uncle on 8/9/1918 and of Walter Payne on 10/9/1918. I attach a map of the movements of the regiment during this time.
I attach here a photo of the Cemetery in Flętre which I visited back in 2010. Unfortunately, I don't have a photo of Thomas' gravestone. If you PM me with your email address, I can send you my photos of the war diaries and a few more of the cemetery, or have you already been there? If you want to check out the war diaries at the National Archives, I should be able to dig up some information about where they are exactly.
Alan
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1841 Census - Bradford, Yorkshire, England
Payne, William 20 Ireland wool comber
Lavinia 20 England
William 3 Bradford
Richard 1 Bradford
Richard 25 Ireland wool comber
John 20 Ireland wool comber
George 15 England wool comber
Richard (25), John (20), and George (15) were William's brothers.
William does not appear in 1851, or in subsequent censuses because he and brother John were convicted of stealing 100+ lbs of mutton from a Bradford, Yorkshire butcher shop, and were sentenced in January 1843 to 10 years transportation in Van Dieman's Land (Tazmania). They were both married, and neither returned to England. All children born to Lavinia after 1843 were illegitimate.
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Hi there I have in my possession a large bronze war medal awarded to Walter thomas payne. It's a dead mans penny from 1918. The only information I could find was his army number and his grave in a cemetery in France. I traced his name to rootschat and believe he came from Hockley Birmingham. I am keen to return this to a member of his family at no cost
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I am in possession of the dead mans penny awarded to the family of walter tho.as payne. A bombadier from Hockley. I am eager to return this to his family. I know he died in 1918 and have traced his grave to France and have his army number