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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: anglo-norwegian on Saturday 20 February 10 10:55 GMT (UK)
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Searching for birth & parentage of Henry Thomas Newton Chesshyre, b.c.1818 -where? (Bath?,Cheshire,Lancs.?)
Also death - he died after 1872 (last found evidence)- somewhere he called 'C.H.'
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Hi
Welcome to rootschat ;D
I assume the Bath, Cheshire, Lancashire come from census as places of birth ...are you able to post details of a census where you have him please so we know who we are looking at ;)
Rosie
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He was a Lieutenant in the Royal Navy from 1846 until 1853, inherited money from an aunt & then used up his inheritance in Norway 1853-57, then tried a settler's life in Canada. By chance he was in England at the time of the 1871 Census. That's how I found him (a lodger in Portsmouth) aged 53, so guess he was born c.1818.
He bought a property in Norway in 1853. In the document legalising his purchase it says he is from Bath, England. But the naval family of Chesshyres was from (now) Runcorn. An estate there passed in the late 18th-C from Chesshyres to Newtons. Admiral John Chesshyre had many children...Henry could have been sent to the famous school in Bath where many naval officers had their education, especially if his parents died when he was young. From what I know of his life he never mentions any family in England - seems to be without family there. Later in life he drops the Thomas & the Newton parts of his name. He wrote 2 books.
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The 1871 shows him as Henry Cheshire aged 53 - no birthplace shown - formerly officer in the navy. Shown as unmarried
As he was unmarried in 1871 and aged 53 - what is your interest in him Did he perhaps marry after 1871 and produce a child from whom you are descended?
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Looks like he had some time in Canada too
Link to Google Books reference (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IbANAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22Henry+Thomas+Newton+Chesshyre%22&source=bl&ots=aX0R7eL1Fz&sig=AqZhXhhxZD78Q1fHWq3G82aQbZk&hl=en&ei=B0mAS6Vik_rTBKa5lagE&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false)
Ermy
Moderator comment: link shrunk to avoid stretching the page!
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Thanks. Now its the beginning and end of his life that I haven't been able to find.
Do I have to come to England and search in Parish registers...then where...Bath had two parish churches in 1818 I believe, St. James and SS Peter & Paul (the abbey), but he need not have been born in Bath.
His family could have been from Admiral Thomas Chesshyre, of Warrington,Lancs (later Salford) who had 17 children :)
Of these, Edward b.1759 d.1842, Robert b.1768, Thomas b.1771 d.1850?, or Charles b.1779 could have been his father.
The son John, who became a Rear-Admiral was not his father.
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Hi
As he was unmarried in 1871 and aged 53 - what is your interest in him Did he perhaps marry after 1871 and produce a child from whom you are descended?
The counties of possible birth are very diverse with quite some distance between them so it could help if you could give us some reason for your research as it may help us to help you
There are too many "could have been's" re: parentage and it is a very unusual name
Have you tried this website http://www.csc.liv.ac.uk/~cprdb/
or this one as I notice you mention Salford www.lan-opc.org.uk
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Yes, he wrote two books - the first being: 'Recollections of a five year's residence in Norway' which sold well after it came out in 1861 and earned him some much needed income.
His publisher urged him to write a book about Canada too, but he clearly didn't have the time - he lifted whole sections from Government publications about Canada and a lot of it is pretty boring reading!!
His attempt at farming in Canada failed. He ended up in Britain again. I wondered whether he could have earned his living finally by working as a teacher at Christ's Hospital (C.H.) which was in London then(1870s), but I never got any reply from the master in charge of archives...
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He did in fact get married- in Norway in 1855. He had 2 children. They and their mother emigrated to the US, as did several of her relatives.
I know all that is relevant in relation to this part of the story.
He is the one who disappears from the picture, basically because he apparently didn't manage to support them sufficiently, tho' he did pay for his wife's and daughter's journey across to reunite with his son in Nebraska.
I guess he did not declare his married state in the Census of 1871. The wife was his housekeeper and well below him in social standing. A letter dated 1872 makes it clear that he was in considerable financial difficulty.
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Hi
That helps us to understand your interest - because he shows himself as unmarried it was a bit puzzling.
I don't know what info is available on Norwegian marriage certs for that time but am I correct in assuming it does not show any details of his father
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Hi A-N
As Carole suggests, we would normally look at marriage certs for clues to parentage, age, occupation and possibly even birthplace. Are there records in Norway concerning immigration, property purchase, professional directory entries?
Where do you suppose he was in 1841, and 1851 censuses?
How do you know about the inheritance and who was his aunt?
Have you tried the National Archives for his service records - a post on the Armed Forces board here might help.
Where was the 1872 letter from
We could do with a timeline to know where to look for him!
Kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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PS to Carolew
Thanks for the links - I shall work on them tommorrow!! :)
You are right about no info. relating to his parentage in the marriage - actually because he didn't actually get married...in his book he makes a comment under the topic of marriage customs that people didn't always get married ( a sop to his own bad conscience I think). However he did fully own paternity to his children, having them baptized with godparents all written in the church records.
He did do his best by them, but after he left for Canada, hoping to make a home there to which he could bring them, he was totally dependent on the help of the local aristocrat, his friend, to keep contact with her. No-one in the higher circles could understand his wish. Normally you would just slink off - he didn't.
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Hi A-N,
I have a connection to the Runcorn Chesshyre family but only through the marriage in 1752 of Robert Chesshyre to Mary Bankes - I think that it is at Frodsham where I've seen the list of vicars including the Chesshyre name.
Jean
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Hallo Arranroots!
He was at sea both in 1841 & 1851. I have managed to find out about his career in the Navy. As regards his inheritance, he writes this in his book about Norway, but I don't know who his aunt was - maybe one of Admiral Thomas Chesshyre's 9 daughters, some of whom may have been unmarried & so...?
The 1872 letter was from Scotland, where he was visiting friends whom he had known in Norway. The letter tells me much - he had seen his wife & daughter, was now penniless, disillusioned but resigned, would return to "Babylon"- his euphemism for London?- and to C.H. after some 6 weeks (c.October)
I have all his life between 1840 & 1872 because of his career, books & his letter writing, plus the documents I have managed to find...but his beginning & his end..
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Thanks for explaining!
I wonder whether you have tried to trace the probate of the will - again the National Archives is the place (I think - someone will correct me if I'm wrong!) You might have to go "around the houses" to work out his origins, but if you can establish who this aunt was, that might help!
So it sounds as though the will was proved sometime in the years before 1872?
C.H. - is he still in the Navy at this time? Could it be something like Company Headquarters, rather than a place? Maybe it's a house name, which could be problematic!
Will sleep on it!
;)
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Hello Jean!
Robert, married in 1752...so that is not one of Admiral Thomas's children. He had a Robert born in 1768...could still have been the same family tho'
How can I follow up on this family?
Another question is should one be trying to find more 'Newton Chesshyres'..
I found one - Edward Newton Ch. born c.1851 on a ships list to New York...but I can't make that fit in somehow.
Another Newton Ch. family I found were all artisans - didn't quite fit the picture. You couldn't become an officer in the R.N. if you were not from a higher class family.
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Hi A-N,
There was a Robert CHESSHYRE who entered Caius college, Cambridge in 1670 - son of Thomas of Halton, Cheshire. He was later the vicar of Runcorn.
This site: http://fsbeta.familysearch.org/s/ has a number of baptisms for the surname CHESSHYRE in Cheshire - most are at Runcorn / Halton.
I'm pretty sure that one of the CHESSHYRE family was vicar at Frodsham St Lawrence as well - I think he may have been the father of the Robert CHESSHYRE who married into my line.
I'll have a dig round and see what I can find.
Jean
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Hertfordshire Archives seem to have a conveyance document that mentions Henry T N CHESSHYRE and James W CHESSHYRE dated 1856.
This extract seems to connect the Cheshire branch with those in Hertfordshire:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Dictionary_of_National_Biography_volume_10.djvu/209
And another reference to James William CHESSHYRE, banker, and a Charles John CHESSHYRE of Cheltenham: http://www.rootschat.com/links/0831/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0832/ - appointment of an attorney "Mr Henry T N Chesshyre about to go abroad, 1835 and 1856"
Much of this suggest his roots were in the Hertford area.
Jean
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Henry's book about his travels:
"Recollections of a five years' residence in Norway" by Henry Thomas N Chessyre.
Not sure if you are aware that it is available to download from here: http://www.archive.org/index.php
Alot of circumstantial information seems to indicate that his father might have been John Peter Henry CHESSHYRE who died in 1855 in Bath, Somerset. His will is available to download from the National Archives for £3.50: http://www.rootschat.com/links/0833/
It might confirm the connection between Henry TN, James W and Charles John - and their parentage.
Jean
Amended after reading the thread properly!!
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In the 1861 census, Charles John CHESSHYRE has a son called Charles Newton CHESSHYRE aged 2 months: RG9 1801/122 Page 28 - which adds to the possiblity that there may be a connection.
Jean
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Hallo JDGen
I am seething with excitement - you are giving so many leads that I haven't time to reply & only try to keep up.
I had been rather hooked on the Admiral Thomas idea because of the names - people often use the same christian names in a family - esp. if one is going into the same profession. Now I am working on the Will. John P H C was from Little Eastern in Essex - I have seen him in the census but had discarded the idea...
Charles John C. how old was he in the 1861 census?
Henry T.N.C. left for Norway in June 1853, so inherited from his aunt before that - how long did it take in those days to get your inheritance??
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Hi A-N,
It would vary on the length of time to receive an inheritance - probate can be granted quite quickly though.
Here is the 1861 census in full:
Charles J CHESSHYRE, Head, Mar, 44, Attorney and Solicitor born Little Easton, Essex
Mary Anne CHESSHYRE, Wife, Mar, 44, born Leicestershire Louth [as shown although I think Louth is in Lincolnshire and definitely says Mary Anne and not Mary Susan]
Alma Mary CHESSHYRE, Dau, 6 born Gloucestershire, Cheltenham
[Next Page]
Ida Naomi G CHESSHYRE, Dau, 3 born Gloucestershire, Cheltenham
Charles Newton CHESSHYRE, Son, ? months born Gloucestershire, Cheltenham
Marriage of Charles John:
Hull Packet and East Riding Times, Friday October 15th 1852
October 7th at Bath, at the Trinity Church by the Rev F A Gace M A, Charles John Chesshyre, Esq, eldest son of the Rev J P Chesshyre, rector of Little Easton, Essex, to Mary Susan, Second daughter of the late Langley Gace, Esq of Louth, Lincolnshire
Jean
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Fantastic, Jean!
Now I have worked hard on the will of John Peter Henry Chesshyre. At the time of making his will he had 10 living children - 5 boys & 5 girls. Henry Thomas Newton was the 3rd. son. He seems to have left Henry T less than any of the others.
That must be because Henry had already inherited from his aunt - and had gone off on his adventures to Norway. He had had his chance, apparently.
The Charles John & James William are the 2 elder brothers of Henry.
How can I find out more about John Peter & his wife Charlotte Frances(to find the aunt)?
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Hi A-N,
There seems to be some information that doesn't quite match up! The IGI has the baptism of John Peter Henry CHESSHYRE as 16th March 1791 at Benington, parents John and Julia.
You can search here for free: http://www.rootschat.com/links/0bq/
You can also search for the Surname CHESSHYRE using the batch number C072161 which will give you other children of John & Julia baptised at Benington.
http://www.hertsdirect.org/libsleisure/heritage1/HALS/indexes/ - you can search for the surname CHESSHYRE and you will see some marriage entries and a couple of obituary references for Hertfordshire.
But it doesn't match with the Cambridge Alumni entries below:
Cambridge University Alumni has entries for John and his father who was Charles Caesar Cholmondely CHESSHYRE:
John Peter Henry CHESSHYRE
College: St John’s
Entered: Michaelmas. 1808
Adm. at ST JOHN'S, June 27, 1808.
Son of John [sic - see below] Caesar Cholmondely CHESSHYRE (1773), Esq., of Bennington, Herts.
Matriculated Michaelmas 1808; B.A. 1812; M.A. 1819.
Rector of Little Easton, Essex, 1815. V. of Tilty, 1841-55.
Inherited the manor of Bennington from his father, but sold it to George Proctor, Esq., May 14, 1826.
Married Charlotte Frances Commeline on 17th January 1816, at Bennington.
Died 2 August 1855, aged 64, at 1, Catherine Place, Bath.
Charles Caesar Cholmondely CHESSHYRE
College: St John's
Entered: Michs. 1773
Adm. pens. at ST JOHN'S, Oct. 8, 1773.
2nd son of John, of New Windsor, Berkshire, and of Bennington, Herts.
School, Eton .
Matriculated Michs. 1773; Scholar, 1773; B.A. 1778.
Adm. at Lincoln's Inn, Jan. 23, 1776.
Of Bennington, Herts. His career has not been traced. Brother of the next and father of John P. H. (1808).
There is a note on this record to say that in the college admission register, the name appears as John, but on his own admission entry he has written Charles.
This is the next entry on the register:
John CHESSHYRE
College: TRINITY HALL
Entered: Michs. 1770
Adm. pens. at TRINITY HALL, Apr. 6, 1770.
Son and heir of John, of New Windsor, and of Bennington Park, Herts.
School, Eton.
Matriculated Michs. 1770; Scholar, 1770.
Succeeded his father at Bennington, 1786.
Drowned. Brother of the above [Charles]
Lots of information - there are a couple of Hertforshire wills for CHESSHYRE females on the site where John Peter Henry's will was - but nothing that exactly matches the timescales for an 1853 departure.
Jean
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I wonder if this is the will with the bequest: - although it could be on his mother's side of the family....
Will of Caroline Harriet Chesshyre, Spinster of Boulogne Sur Mer, France dated 14th March 1853 (this may well be the probate date, not the date the will was made) - there is a christening for Caroline Harriot CHESSHYRE 22 September 1787 at Benington, daughter of John and Julia CHESSHYRE.
Jean
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Hi Jean!
I tried & tried the free search (first http adress in long post) but couldnt get anything up- not using the batch no. either - dont know what I'm doing wrong ??? I would dearly like to see who the other children of John & Julia were. >:(
I suppose Essex has a sight like Hertfordshire - do you have the web address - is there some way I could find it for myself - feel aweful always asking ::)
I found Caroline Harriet (spinster and living in France.) 's will and have read through it
She left all proceeds to her brother John except for books & plate, which were first to go to unmarried daughters of John, & if they married, then to go equally to Henry T.N. and Stark Montgomery (the youngest - who gets most from his father anyway!)
Its hard to see that Henry got very much from this.
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Oh, how interesting.
OK, well Jack Montgomery CHESSHYRE died in 1871 aged only 35 - www.freebmd.org.uk. But you are right, sounds like she left most to Henry's father - bonus is that at least it further validates the connection.
This is what I have for children of John & Julia:
Catherine bap 11 Sep 1781
Elizabeth Julia Bap 5 Jan 1783
Caroline Harriot bap 22 Sep 1787
Peter John bap 11 Feb 1789
John Peter Henry bap 16 Mar 1791
Elizabeth Priscilla bap 26 May 1792
Essex Records Office do have a site: http://seax.essexcc.gov.uk/ - and have lots of records online, but not for Little Easton at the right period as far as I can see!
Children of John Chesshyre and Penelope (possibly Brereton)
John 26 Feb 1750 Benington
John 28 Jul 1752 Benington
James 6 Feb 1754 Benington
Charles Caesar Cholmondeley 28 May 1756 Clewer
Maria 6 Jul 1758 Clewer
Margaret 6 Jul 1758 Clewer
Jean
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Hi Jean
Many thanks for all today's help :) We have got a lot further!!
As I live in Norway the time is an hour ahead of Greenwich meantime, so I must tear myself away and go to bed.
I suspect it is harder to find out about the mother's family : Charlotte Frances Commeline...well that's the next approach and
Where is C.H. to which he was returning in 1872...? The mystery continues!
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Searching for birth & parentage of Henry Thomas Newton Chesshyre, b.c.1818 -where? (Bath?,Cheshire,Lancs.?)
Also death - he died after 1872 (last found evidence)- somewhere he called 'C.H.'
Look up request: 1841 Census: Essex: John Peter Henry Chesshyre, vicar of Little Eastern
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1841 Census: HO107 328/12/3 Page 1, Little Easton, Essex:
John Peter Henry Cheshyre, 50, Clergyman, No
Charlotte Frances Cheshyre, 45, No
Juliana Frances Cheshyre, 18, Yes
Charlotte Maria Cheshyre, 16, Yes
Augustus Phillips Cheshyre, 15, Yes
Matilda Rachel Cheshyre, 13, Yes
Louisa Caroline Cheshyre, 11, Yes
Catherine Isabella Cheshyre, 7, Yes
Jack Montgomery Cheshyre, 5, Yes
Mary Susan Gace, 23, Governess, No [goes on to marry Charles John Chesshyre!]
+ 4 servants
Note that ages were rounded down to the nearest 5 years in the 1841 census and no relationships were given - the yes / no in the last column shows if they were born in the county or not.
Jean
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Gloucester Records Office have some records for the Commeline family:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/083f/
It might be worth a separate post on the Gloucestershire board to see what can be found - if you do post, include a link to this thread so that people can see the background.
Jean
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Thanks Jean- I tried to be clever today and sent out (somehow - not sure what I did)a request for a look up on J.P.H.C's family - got some answers, but I can see its wise to stick to someone who has the thread of enquiry....
Can you discover more about the rest of the family?
Reason is that in 1871 Census Henry Thomas N.C. is a lodger at a 'Master Mariner'-John Finey-at Emsworth in Hampshire - much below Henry's family's station.
I am wondering whether Henry's father gave H. his inheritance out of Harriet's bequest, enabling Henry to escape the war. Maybe that's what prompted John Peter to get on with making his will and it would account for Henry getting so little(just a pair of silver candlesticks) from his father. Then Henry had used up all his money - in disgrace?
Is it possible to find out what the appointment of attorney for Henry was about?
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The Commeline family didn't have anything I could see to be at all relevant, so I think we found the right things in relation to Henry thomas with Harriet's will.
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Dear Jean,
Could we find out what happens to this family by looking at the Census of 1861, 71 & 81?
As John Peter Henry died in 1855, I imagine that Charlotte Frances may have carried on as head of house for some years....and after that maybe the eldest unmarried daughter - Juliana Frances?
I have a 'romantic'? idea that he might have gone to live with a sister when he got too old to cope alone. But he would hardly have known any of them.
2 years ago I searched masses of Deaths lists that I found on the net but didn't find him Didn't search in Essex or Somerset...will try again. Don't remember now how I did it! I've written to buy a copy of the conveyance doc.
Moderator Comment: Linked to other thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,439534.msg3029095.html#msg3029095
to avoid duplication of effort - please post on other thread
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Message deleted by anglo norwegian