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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: happygirl on Sunday 21 February 10 14:18 GMT (UK)
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Hi I'm new to this, I have been researching walls or wells as it seems to change on certificates I have John Wells died 1876 m. Elizabeth Kirkpatrick Dumfries. Father Laurence Wells deceased pig dealer but can't find anything on him,can anyone help?would be grateful for any help
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Do you know John Wells/Walls rough birth date or children, when did John and Elizabeth marry?
There only appears to be one Lawrence Wells b. abt 1810 on the census for Dumfries, ha has a son called John b abt 1846, but then disappears off the census, so without looking deeper he may have died. This Lawrence was a farmer.
Working backwards there are two possible John Wells married to Elisabeth/Elizabeth, both born about 1829/1820.
I cant find anyone under Walls/Dumfries. You will find lots of anomalies with regards to spelling so you will have to think laterally a lot of the time!
So, do you have more we can go from? We should be able to point you in the right direction then! :)
Thanks
Tracey
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hi all :)
happygirl , welcome to rootschat :)
as Tracey notes a bit more info. would help
scotlandspeople index has a john wells death 1876 dumfries dumfries born c1814 - is this the john wells you refer to ?
ev
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Thanks Tracey and ev , I have john wells died 1876 married to elizabeth kirkpatrick on death certificate age 62 yrs so i est b 1814. elizabeth b1824 d1898 they have a son thomas wallsb1858
i have laurence wells as father and no mothers name on johns death certificate and thomas as father on elizabeths and no mother so am stuck with laurence and thomas your help much appreciated
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1881 10 sth queensbury st.(close) dumfries dumfries(all born dumfries-shire)
thomas wells 26 grocers porter born dumfries
rachel wells 23 wife mill worker b. kirkmahoe
john wells 3 son b. dumfries
thomas wells 2 son b. dumfries
elizabeth wells 60 mother widow outdoor worker b. dumfries
george wells 15 brother grocers message boy b. kirkmahoe
just wondering if there are 2 brothers married to 2 sisters ?
john wells and elizabeth kirkpatrick
laurence wells and martha kirkpatrick
1851 mitchals closs , off queansbery st dumfries dumfriesshire
john wells 35 waterman b. dumfries dumfries
elezebth wells 34 wife b. dumfries dumfries
+ children
1851 gateside of trench dumfries dumfriesshire
laurence wells 41 farmer b. dumfries
martha wells 32 wife b. lochmaben
+ children
see 1851 census here -
http://maxwellancestry.co.uk/census/51search.aspx
ev
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hi ev you are maybe right with the brothers married to two sisters i think this is how i'm struggling.
i know the thomas wells is married to rachel mcmurdo and her mother margaret married james wells kirkmahoe so yes the ones you have found are mine i can't find marriage of michael wells and mary ann gibson this is james parents.and john wells and laurence are onthe other side of my tree but will study it more to try and sort it out many thanks
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Hi Laurence Walls/Wells is my great great grandfather, born c1810 Dumfries?, married Martha Kirkpatrick 2nd May 1841 and died 24th January 1867 at Gateside of Trench, Dumfries. If this is the person you are looking for please get in touch and I will see if ~I can help. They did have a son John born in 1846 but I do not have a lot of info on John, but I have more on the rest of the family.
Little Prince
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Hi Littleprince
Thanks for your reply I have John Wells died 1876 age 62 married to Elizabeth Kirkpatrick
father Laurence Wells Pig Dealer (deceased)and mothers name missing.
The Laurence you have comes in somewhere he married Martha in 1841.I wonder if john was laurence's brother.Do you know who the parents were of Laurence that was born 1810.Also do you have Michael Wells in your tree.
Many thanks Happygirl
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I do not have the parents of Laurence, but I found a distant relation on another genealogy forum, she employed a professional to research and they came up with a Michael Wells as Laurences father. Apparently Michael came over from Ireland in the early 1800`s. I do not know if Laurence had any brothers or sisters, so cannot help with the John. In the 1861 census Laurence was in Edinburgh staying with his uncle Laurence and his family.
Little Prince
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Hiya,
I have Laurence's death certificate (1867) which gives his father as Michael Wells. There was only one Michael Senior about at the time and he had quite a few other children (1841 census) . I have found certificates for a couple of them (James and Peter) which gives their parents as Michael Wells and Mary Ann Gibson.
Michael was from Ireland and must have come to Scotland in the early 1800s. There is a Dumfries Kirk Session record for him and Ann Gibson in 1807. I have not been able to trace them in Ireland yet
My link is to a possible brother of Michael called Arthur Wells (Walls) who fathered an ancestor of mine called William Wells in 1818. Laurence had a child called Arthur who died in 1855 at the age of 9.
I would be delighted if anyone has come across this part of the Walls/Wells family and can shine any light on where they may have come from.
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Hi Wattnb
My gr.gr.grandmother Rachel Mc Murdo m. Thomas Walls 1877
her parents James Wells+Margaret Mc Murdo m1865 his parents Michael Wells+Mary Ann Gibson.
Thomas Walls parents are John Walls +Elizabeth Kirkpatrick,Johns Father named as Laurence.
I have found some names on the catholic records that might be of interest to you.
Michael Walls+Ann Gibson had a son William b.1829 Trench Dumfries
Arthur Walls+Sarah Kennedy had a son Michael b.1837 Trench Dumfries
Arthur Walls +Mary McKeanna had daugh. Margaret 1826
I have not been able to find out where in Ireland but will keep trying there are other walls names on record if i can be of any help let me know and i will do my best to help
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Hi there,
I have the info on Arthur Wells and Sarah Kennedy (thanks). I believe that their children Ann and Michael were living with Michael Wells (from Ireland) in 1841. N B There was at least one other child living with Michael other than his own children (who was his Grandson) listed on the census in 1841. There is also another Irish Walls/Wells family in dumfries in 1841- Patrick and Elizabeth- where the Arthur name crops up again.
Re the Ireland connection, I wondered if there had been a name alteration when they came over the sea. The name Walsh/Welsh is very, very popular in Ireland.
I will also keep looking and will post here if I get any more info.
Best wishes
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Laurence Wells death cert in 1867 gives Michael Wells as his father. There is only one Michael Wells (or Walls) listed in Dumfries around the first half of the 1800s - the one who married Ann Gibson. I hae not found his married but have the records of birth of most of his children (except Laurence who married Martha)
Laurence was in Edinburgh in 1861 with his ´"Uncle" Laurence Walls. That would indicate that Edinburgh Laurence and Michael Wells were brothers.
I also have the Edinburgh Laurence´s death cert in Edinburgh in 1884 which gives his parents as John Walls and Bridget McEwan or McKane. This Laurence was married to Bridget Finnigan who died in 1866. Laurence then remarried a Margaret Fraser. He was remarried by the 1871 Census.
I think where I come in is that Michael and Lawrence possibly had a brother called Arthur who married Sarah Kennedy in 1833. Either that or Arthur was a son of Michael or Lawrence. The name Arthur pops up in all the Irish Walls families in dumfries at the time. It is interesting that Arthur´s children were called Michael and Ann!
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Hi
I have been looking into my family history for long time. Not managed to get far with fathers mothers side of family. I think looking at the posts you have made, I may be linked somewhere. But must admit to getting a bit confused to some of the information. My x2 gt grandmother was Annie Walls b.1843 Dumfries. Her parents were John Wells and Elizabeth Kirkpatrick. looks like this John and Elizabeth fit into the information you have given I think. Annie and Walls married John Saunders had 9 children. If anyone can help or would like to get in touch please do, I have not managed to come across anyone researching same family tree as myself yet.
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Hi Sharon
I think your Annie and Thomas would be brother and sister it would be interesting if you have any more information on John Walls and Elizabeth Kirkpatrick as I am stuck with them.
All I have is Johns Father as Laurence Wells/Walls as the name changes on certificate and no mothers name
Elizabeth's father's name is Thomas Kirkpatrick and no mother on certificate
in 1901 census at 8 Queensberry St Dumfries
father Thomas Walls age 54 think this would be Annie's brother
son John Walls age 23
John Saunders age 64 this would be Annie's husband
look forward to hearing from you hope this is of use to you
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Hi
I have been looking into my family history for long time. Not managed to get far with fathers mothers side of family. I think looking at the posts you have made, I may be linked somewhere. But must admit to getting a bit confused to some of the information. My x2 gt grandmother was Annie Walls b.1843 Dumfries. Her parents were John Wells and Elizabeth Kirkpatrick. looks like this John and Elizabeth fit into the information you have given I think. Annie and Walls married John Saunders had 9 children. If anyone can help or would like to get in touch please do, I have not managed to come across anyone researching same family tree as myself yet.
Hi Sharon,
You may have it already but here is Anne´s marriage cert.
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Hi
Thanks for copy of the marriage certificate, this is on that I have now. It's John and Elizabeth that I am now stuck on. Oh well,
thanks
sharon
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Hi sharon,
I have just come across the death certs for John and Elizabeth which I had previously viewed but not used as they are not in my line. Do you want me to send them to you?
Norma
:D
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It would be great if you could send the copy of death certificates or the info that is on them. Would greatly appreciate it.
Thank you
sharon
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It would be great if you could send the copy of death certificates or the info that is on them. Would greatly appreciate it.
Thank you
sharon
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hi,
this is my first day on this site, but I have been on Scotland's people for a couple of months
I have a John Wells born approx 1821 ( 50 in 1871 census) that I believe died in 1876. He was married to Elizabeth Wells age 43 so born approx 1826. They have a son Thomas aged 18 so born approx 1853. Living at 10 Queensbury Street Dumfries.
Look on the forward one page of this census and in the same house you will see James Wells age 30 his wife Margaret Wells, daughter Rachel McMurdo Wells age 12., a Sarah Burgess age 12 , George Wells age 5 and Walter McMurdo Wells age 3.
James Wells married Margaret McMurdo in 1865.
Rachel McMurdo was illegitimately born to Margaret in 1857. If you find this birth record ( Duncow Dumfries) you will see that the entry immediately below is that for Sarah McMurdo, born to Elizabeth (or Eliza) McMurdo a few days after Rachel.
In the 1861 census you will find Margaret, Rachel and Sarah living in Kirkmahoe with Margaret's parents Walter and Rachel McMurdo. Elizabeth is missing, and Sarah has a new surname Burgess.
So I think that the entry for Rachel McMurdo Wells in the 1871 census is incorrect. Her real name is probably still Rachel McMurdo, and I doubt that James Wells is her father. This means that George Wells and Walter McMurdo Wells are probably her half brothers.
So Thomas Wells and Rachel McMurdo lived in the same house in 1871, probably in different rooms. .That will be how they they met and ended up getting married six years later (2nd November 1877).
Now back to your initial question, I think that the parents of John Wells married to Elizabeth Kirkpatrick, are Thomas Wells and Janet Brown. This is from ands Old parish register of John Wells baptism 30th August 1822 birth 22 August 1822. I have not made any link to a Lawrence Wells at all!
Now I don't yet know how James Wells who married Margaret McMurdo is related to the Wells family living in the same house in 1871, but they surely must be. 10 Queensbury Street seems to be central to a long line of my ancestors. This is perhaps where the Lawrence Wells and Michael Wells links are. Certainly my Grandfather ( Thomas and Rachel Wells Grandson) used to talk about the family name being changed fro Walls to Wells. as per Michael Walls/Wells from Ireland? Time Will tell.
My father tels me that one day a man from Dumfries, a tramp, happened to chap on the door at their house ( then in Bonnybridge) asking to be fed. The conversation led to a story of how Walls became Wells. Apparently a Frank Walls went to the funeral of my Granmother (Jane Cunningham Wells nee Laurie). I think Frank Walls owned a transport cafe near Lockerbie)
Reading about Annie Wells/Walls and Michael Wells.Walls in this post inspired me. I have not been able to find Rachel Wells ( nee McMurdo) death certificate, so I tried Rachel Walls and there it is, Rachel Walls 1883 Dumfries.
I have Thomas Wells and Rachel living at 10 Queensbury Street in 1881 living with two sons John and Thomas, a third son William came slightly later. Also at the house is Thomas Mother Elizabeth and a brother George. George is probably Rachel's half brother, no relation to Thomas. So I wonder where James Wells, Margaret Wells (nee McMurdo), Walter McMurdo Wells and Sarah Burgess are? Any idea?
Are you a descendant of one of Thomas and Rachel's three sons John, Thomas or William? William is my Great Grandfather.
bluebike1
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happy girl,
now have more info Rachel Wells ( nee McMurdo) who married Thomas Wells died in 1883 (at Dumfries infirmary due Typhoid. The death certificate says that her mother Margaret McMurdo was already deceased. :( (Search Rachel Walls not Wells).
In 1881 George Wells son of James Wells and Margaret Wells ( nee McMurdo) has moved in with Thomas Wells and his half sister Rachel. I cannot find James Wells, Margaret Wells, Sarah Burgess and Walter McMurdo Wells. Any idea what happened to them? I wonder if they too had died of typhoid, for I note that Thomas Wells had moved with his mother Elizabeth and his three sons out of no 10 and into no 6 Queensbury Street after Rachel died ( see the 1891 census). Perhaps that was to get away from they Typhoid bug.
Previous searches for Rachel Wells death, produced a Rachel McMurdo Wells who died at age 5 months in 1897 :( . Her mother was Margaret McMurdo Wells. This has confused me, but thinking about it, Margaret could well be the a daughter of James and Margaret Wells ( nee McMurdo) and born after the 1871 census. Do you have any knowledge of them?
bluebike1
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I accidentally deleted your PM, can you resend?
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Hi Laurence Walls/Wells is my great great grandfather, born c1810 Dumfries?, married Martha Kirkpatrick 2nd May 1841 and died 24th January 1867 at Gateside of Trench, Dumfries. If this is the person you are looking for please get in touch and I will see if ~I can help. They did have a son John born in 1846 but I do not have a lot of info on John, but I have more on the rest of the family.
Little Prince
Hi, I saw your post on this thread while I was looking for my gg grandfather William wells. I found him on the 1851 census living with mother Martha in gateside of trench, and in the 1841 census living with mother Martha and father Laurence. So I think that your Laurence is my ggg grandfather. at the moment I'm unable to find birth record for William in about 1841-44, and wondered if you had anything. Thanks, Jean
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Hi Bluebike 1,
I have John Wells (married to Elizabeth Kirkpatrick) death certificate which shows his father as Laurence Wells Pig Dealer. Laurence was married to Martha Kirkpatrick.
Laurence´s father (according to his death cert) was Michael Wells (Walls)
Best wishes
Norma
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Hi Jeanc19,
You asked about William Wells. You can find his birth record on Scotlandspeople. There is a Catholic Parish Record for him being born on 29 April 1842 to Laurence and Martha.
Best wishes
Norma
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Hi Bluebike 1,
I have John Wells (married to Elizabeth Kirkpatrick) death certificate which shows his father as Laurence Wells Pig Dealer. Laurence was married to Martha Kirkpatrick.
Laurence´s father (according to his death cert) was Michael Wells (Walls)
Best wishes
Norma
Hi Norma I'm sure John Wells m. Elizabeth Kirkpatrick and Laurence m. to martha. are related either brothers or cousins but just can't make the connection.And Johns father Laurance and Michael could be brothers just need to find the connection
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Hi Laurence Walls/Wells is my great great grandfather, born c1810 Dumfries?, married Martha Kirkpatrick 2nd May 1841 and died 24th January 1867 at Gateside of Trench, Dumfries. If this is the person you are looking for please get in touch and I will see if ~I can help. They did have a son John born in 1846 but I do not have a lot of info on John, but I have more on the rest of the family.
Little Prince
Hi, I saw your post on this thread while I was looking for my gg grandfather William wells. I found him on the 1851 census living with mother Martha in gateside of trench, and in the 1841 census living with mother Martha and father Laurence. So I think that your Laurence is my ggg grandfather. at the moment I'm unable to find birth record for William in about 1841-44, and wondered if you had anything. Thanks, Jean
Hi Jean 1861 census
Martha head 40 born Lochmaben died 1898
William son age 19 b.Dfs
Catherine Daugh 17
Mary Ann daugh 13
Laurence son 11 died 1918
Thomas son 9
Francis son 7
Martha daugh 5 died 8/4/1878 age 22 her son Arthur died 6/4/1878 age 6days
Jane 2
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Hi again Happy girl.
I am trying to link the Irish Walls together as well.
Laurence married to Martha and Laurence pig dealer are different generations as you probably have worked out. There is also another Laurence who moved to Edinburgh. All 3 Born between 1800 and 1816 ish.
Laurence married to Martha went to Edinb to visit his uncle Laurence in one of the census records.
Laurence from Edinburgh's parents were John Walls and Bridget McCane (McKean). This would make Edinburgh Laurence and Michael Walls from Dumfries brothers. Which would make John Walls and Bridget McCane Michael's parents.
My link is with Arthur - the name appears in all the Irish families. He would have been born about 1790 to 1800. I have found two but don,t know which one it is.
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thanks for your replies concerning William wells and Laurence wells.
I think I have found Laurence and wife Martha in the 1841 census, which would have been taken about a month after their marriage, they were in a location called Isle of Manmoss, Dumfries. Does anyone know anything about this address. I tried googling it but didn't come up with anything.
Thanks
Jean
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Hi Jean
It is near Gateside of Trench, I think I found it in the library.
Gillian
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I do not have the parents of Laurence, but I found a distant relation on another genealogy forum, she employed a professional to research and they came up with a Michael Wells as Laurences father. Apparently Michael came over from Ireland in the early 1800`s. I do not know if Laurence had any brothers or sisters, so cannot help with the John. In the 1861 census Laurence was in Edinburgh staying with his uncle Laurence and his family.
Little Prince
Hi little prince
been looking at your posts. The John who married Martha was only 6 years older than John Wells, and uncle Laurence onle 12 years older than John. So neither would be John's father. I have a sneeky feeling the name on the death register for John is a mistake. It was supplied by his son in law, who did not know Johns's Mother.
I think the key here is to learn more about Michael Walls (Wells) when he came from Ireland in early 1800's. What info do you have, when, who with how the data was found ? If you can help with something I can look further
Bluebike
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Hi there,
I have the info on Arthur Wells and Sarah Kennedy (thanks). I believe that their children Ann and Michael were living with Michael Wells (from Ireland) in 1841. N B There was at least one other child living with Michael other than his own children (who was his Grandson) listed on the census in 1841. There is also another Irish Walls/Wells family in dumfries in 1841- Patrick and Elizabeth- where the Arthur name crops up again.
Re the Ireland connection, I wondered if there had been a name alteration when they came over the sea. The name Walsh/Welsh is very, very popular in Ireland.
I will also keep looking and will post here if I get any more info.
Best wishes
hello wattnb (norma?)
thanks for your post.
ref 1841 census for Michael Wells, I have him living at Locharside, looks like the family are involved in peat cutting. He has children, James, Peter,Thomas, Jean, William Francis ages from 20 to 5. Then more children, Mary, James, Ann and Michael, ages 10 to 5.
Is this the census that you refer to? Are the last 4 Arthur and Sarah's? If so how do you know, because I cannot see any relationships on this census.....
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Hi Bluebike 1
There are no relationships recorded on the 1841 census. The only John Walls that I have in my family tree is Laurence and Martha`s son, John, born in Dumfries in 1846.
Little Prince
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Hi Bluebike 1
There are no relationships recorded on the 1841 census. The only John Walls that I have in my family tree is Laurence and Martha`s son, John, born in Dumfries in 1846.
Little Prince
thanks,
John Wells /Elizabeth Kirpatrick are in mine and happygirls line. his son Thomas had three sons the first is happygirls greatgrandfather, the third is my great grandfather. We are both looking for parents of John. The death certificate says Laurence Wells pig dealer. The Laurence who narried Martha is not old enough. Laurence's Uncle Laurence in Edinburgh is also not old enough.
I have a theory that Johns father is either Michael Wells or Walls, or connected to him. Do you have any further details about Michael Wells ( or Walls ) that came from Ireland in early 1800's?
Bluebike1
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Can anyone suggest a family tree template we could use as I think that we all have some of the pieces of this Walls family tree and if we all put verified info into it we might see the picture more clearly. ;D
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Hi, fairly new to Rootschat, and have just been looking through the SIT for Wells. A cousin of mine has given me her research into our family name, John Wells m to Elizabeth Kirkpatrick is my 4 great Grandfather, through his son Thomas Wells m to Rachel McMurdo Wells and their son, William McMurdo Wells and his 2nd wife Isabella Kerr, and then my Grandfather Henry Kerr Wells. The only info we had on LaurenceWells, born aound 1790 and died 1825, was of Irish stock and is recorded as a pig farmer, so am pleased to find out a bit more of him and his parents. :)
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We know that some of the Walls family moved to Edinburgh (John Walls and Bridget McKane, Lawrence Walls (his son) and Bridget Finnigan etc.).
I have also found that some of the family moved to Newcastle. I have found entries on Familysearch for Peter Walls and Mary Rafferty, Francis Walls and Catherine Conley and Arthur Walls and Mary McKeanna (McKenna). All had additional children in Newcastle after leaving Dumfries.
Norma
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Norma,
thats good info, but who besides john and laurence mived to Edinburgh?
I think I have Francis and Catherine dying in Dumfries due cholera but I will check
Peter Walls and Mary Raverty certainly disappeared from Dumfries. so they turned up in Newcastle? Interesting
I have used excel to try and build a picture of the Walls people. Perhaps we can fit what we know together.
H
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Henry/Norma,
Interesting that some of this family have appeared in Newcastle. My home town and if I can have further details...birth etc... will go to our central library and see where they lived, children census etc....it has a very comprehensive records of the inhabitants in books etc.
William
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Henry/Norma,
Interesting that some of this family have appeared in Newcastle. My home town and if I can have further details...birth etc... will go to our central library and see where they lived, children census etc....it has a very comprehensive records of the inhabitants in books etc.
William
Hi William
Thank you for your generous offer to try and find some information. I am afraid there is not much to go on but I will tell you what I have:
Ann Walls born to Peter Walls and Mary Rafferty and christened 22 May 1843 in Newcastle
William Walls born to Peter and Mary and christened 30 Aug 1846 in Newcastle
James Walls born to Francis Walls and Catherine Conley and christened 11 July 1830 in Newcastle
Lawrence Walls born to Arthur Walls and Mary McKenna and christened 2 April 1832 in Newcastle
John McKenna born to Rose Walls and Peter(Patrick) Mckenna and christened 25 October 1830 in Newcastle.
I found this info on www.familysearch.org
I am trying to find any of these Walls parents and particularly to find out who their parents were.
Do you have Walls connections William?
Best wishes
Norma
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Hi, Bluebike1 and I are cousins, so his Walls/Wells are mine. I'll take this info with me to our Central library and see what I can find.
William
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Francis Walls- Catherine Conley
OK so we have
1807 Dumfries Kirk Session Michael Walls named as father of Ann Gibsons Child
17 Dec 1826 Francis Walls and Catherine Conlin marriage CPR Dumfries
7 Oct 1827 Baptism of Mary child of Francis Walls and Catherine Campbell CPR Dmfries
11 July 1830 Birth James Walls child of Francis Walls-and Catherine Conley Newcastle (OPR or CPR?)
8 Oct 1832 Death Francis Walls Cholera CPR Dumfries
30 Oct 1832 Death Mrs Francis Walls Cholera CPR Dumfries
6 Jun 1841 Census Mary Wells and James Wells both age 10 ( i.e between 10 and 15, Live with Michael Wells (Walls)
So assuming Catherine Conlin, Campbell and Conley are the same person
Francis could be the 1807 child of Michael a Ann
In 1826 age 19 Francis marries Catherine
In 1827 they have Mary
In 1830 they have moved to Newcastle in Dumfries aqnd have James
In 1832 they are back in Dumfries, Framcis ans Catherine die of Cholera
1841 Michael is looking after their children, his grandchildren .
1851 James is living with two of Michaels sons Peter and a younger Francis, in Campbelltown. Not sure where Mary is
how does that sound?
H
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Francis Walls- Catherine Conley
OK so we have
1807 Dumfries Kirk Session Michael Walls named as father of Ann Gibsons Child
17 Dec 1826 Francis Walls and Catherine Conlin marriage CPR Dumfries
7 Oct 1827 Baptism of Mary child of Francis Walls and Catherine Campbell CPR Dmfries
11 July 1830 Birth James Walls child of Francis Walls-and Catherine Conley Newcastle (OPR or CPR?)
8 Oct 1832 Death Francis Walls Cholera CPR Dumfries
30 Oct 1832 Death Mrs Francis Walls Cholera CPR Dumfries
6 Jun 1841 Census Mary Wells and James Wells both age 10 ( i.e between 10 and 15, Live with Michael Wells (Walls)
So assuming Catherine Conlin, Campbell and Conley are the same person
Francis could be the 1807 child of Michael a Ann
In 1826 age 19 Francis marries Catherine
In 1827 they have Mary
In 1830 they have moved to Newcastle in Dumfries aqnd have James
In 1832 they are back in Dumfries, Framcis ans Catherine die of Cholera
1841 Michael is looking after their children, his grandchildren .
1851 James is living with two of Michaels sons Peter and a younger Francis, in Campbelltown. Not sure where Mary is
how does that sound?
H
H,
That sounds very plausible. If we find James death cert it would confirm all this. I will search for it later.
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Re James Wells
in 1851 the census says that James is the nephew of Peter and Francis, but it also suggests he was born in Dumfries not Newcastle. That could easliy be an error since he was very young when Francis and Catherine died.
In 1861 I cant find Peter at 38 married to a Charlotte ?surname? with nephew James, bizarly aged 6! Is this a different nephew or a mistake?
Peter died in 1893. he was another Pig Dealer. I suspect he must have had an accident because he had been paralysed for 3 years.
I have these records if anyone would like them
After 1861 we have a James Wells marrying Margaret McMurdo in 1865 age 25. This James is recorded as the son of Michael Wells and Ann Gibson. This is confusing because if 25 in 1865 he would have been born 1841. However there is no sign of his supposed mother Ann in the 1841 census or thereafter. So is this actually James son of Francis age 35 who had been looked after by Michael.
James and Margaret were married to the NNE of Dumfries in Duncow, still a vert rural area. In 1871 they have moved to Queensbury Street, same house ( next room) to the John (and Elizabeth) Wells who's parents we are looking for. James is now a porter, as was John and John's son Thomas.
So did John find James a job and a place to live? Well since they were both originally Catholic Walls Walls they are probably related. P
James who married Margaret died in April 1891. The age given is 50, again 10 years younger than he should be assuming he was actually the son of Francis and Catherine.
I am not inclined to believe that there was a James born in 1841 to Michael and Ann.
I am inclined to believe that Francis Walls, John Walls and Laurence Walls the Pig Dealer were all sons of Michael Walls and Ann Gibson.
Francis Walls son, James was looked after his grandfather Michael when his parents died.
Later James was looked after by his Uncle Peter Walls another Pig Dealer and, son of Michael Walls
Then he was helped by his Uncle John Walls .
I also note that if Laurence Walls the Pig Dealer's Uncle was Laurence Walls of Edinburgh.
So Michael Walls and Uncle Laurence Walls were brothers.
So the parents of John Walls( Wells) were very probably Michael Walls and Ann Gibson
Michael Walls parents were John Walls and Bridget....
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Hi Wattnb/Bluebike!
Sorry I have not been down to our City library as yet, had a hacking cough/sore throat for nigh on 3 weeks, just getting over it, but did not want to spread germs around. Hoping I'll get down sometime next week to look at the records....and I had a BT line out for 3 days with no internet, first time I've been looking at these sites though for quite a while.Hope you are all well
Bill
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Just a little update I have James Wells b.1840 m. to Margaret McMurdo 20th Oct 1865 at Kirkmahoe on marriage certificate James parents are Michael Wells and Mary Ann Gibson.
James died before 1892
Margaret d.1878 age 34yrs mother of Rachel McMurdo m.to Thomas Walls
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Norma/Henry, finally got to the central library today alas too late to get onto one of the computers (all had been booked) but looked at Microfiche and1 book , so little info on these 3
St. Andrews RC Church, Newcastle upon tyne record of baptisms up to 1840
James Walls, born 20 June 1830, christened 11 July and Godparents James McKonnell and Mary Atkinson.....parents Francis and Catherine Conley.
John McKenna, born 01 October 1830. CH. 25 Oct, Godparents James McQuillan and Mary Murray
parents Patrick McKenna and Rose Walls..baptism record gives him as Patrick, not Peter
Lawrence Walls, born 22 Mar 1832, Ch 02 April, Godparents William and Ann McKenna.
I could not find any record of Ann Walls, Ch 22 May 1843, not William Walls Ch 30th Aug 1846 in any book in the library nor on microfiche, and niether could one of the library assistants find any record online with her computer???.......Looks like further investigation online at the library another day, I can get 2 free hours with a few genealogy websites, presume the name is Walls and were they all RC...and will try and find address/employment etc nest down on these parents. William
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Hiya,
I have not been able to concentrate on this for a while but I have access to findmypast at the moment and have come up with some more info. It looks like Francis and Catherine moved about a bit - from Dumfries, to Cumberland to Newcastle to Hartlepool and then to Liverpool. These are some of the births I found
Francis Walls and Catherine Conley
MARY Walls 1827 Dumfries
Francis Walls and Catherine Campbell
JAMES Walls born to Francis Walls and Catherine Conley and christened 11 July 1830 in Newcastle
CATHERINE 1833 (1841 census) Heworth,, Cumberland
FRANCIS Walls 1835 Hartlepool, Durham
Franciscus Walls
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
birth: 12 April 1835
christening: 1 June 1835 SAINT HILDAS-ROMAN CATHOLIC,HARTLEPOOL,DURHAM,ENGLAND
Father: Francisci Walls mother: Catharina Conley
ELIZABETH Walls 1843 Liverpool
Father: Francis mother: Catharine Conley
AGNES Walls 1845 Liverpool
father: Frances Walls mother: Catharine Connolly
JOSEPH Walls b. 1847 Liverpool
father: Francis Walls mother: Catherine Conolly
I have some info I would like to pm you with Geordiemac and Bluebike to see what you think. Can you pm me your email addresses?
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Hi
I think I have managed to understand and make all connections from the information given. I am the 3 great grandchild of John Walls and Elizabeth Kirkpatrick. Their daughter is Annie Walls my 2nd great grandmother (whom my grandmother was named after).
I do have quite a bit of information going down this side of the tree if anyone interested. As for going up the tree from John to his father, I came to conclusion a very long time ago that John and Micheal Walls were brothers. I think laurence and john walls (cousins) married sisters -- the kirkpatricks, but need to start checking this..
Sharon
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Hi Sharon,
My thoughts are
they are all originally Walls according to Catholic Church records. That fits with Michael being Irish.
Laurence the Pig Dealer looks to be Michael's son according to death record. As he was born before the Church was built so birth record to validate. Similarly marriage record to Martha in 1841 before statutory records does not supply fathers name. However age of Laurence the Pig dealer shows he was born after Michael's illegitimate son in 1807 could back up the death record evidence.
Note this Laurence and Martha's marriage is an OPR, so a protestant marriage, name spelt Wells. All the true Wells in Dumfriesshire at the time were protestants. So this spelling probably an understandable error by the clerk, since Walls otherwise unknown. Alternately a deliberate change to hide the Catholic past. Similarly spelling every Walls as Wells nearly 100% from the 1841 census could be simple errors or deliberate change.
Michael had a brother called Laurence. the one who went to Edinburgh. he was a little older than Laurence the pig dealer and John. So Michael, Laurence and John could be brothers, as you suggest. ----- I did not think of that---------- I concluded think that Laurence the Pig dealer and John were brothers, so Michael would be John's father.
John and Elizabeth had a daughter called Anne, perhaps after Michaels's wife Mary Anne (commonly referred to as simply Anne) Gibson? Laurence and Martha also had a girl called Mary Anne after Laurence probable mother. John and Laurence the Pig dealer must have been close, " as thick as thieves".
If John and Michel were brothers, then John would surely have been close to Michael's other brother Laurence who went to Edinburgh, ( with his parent's I think) as they again were of similar age.
So I think Brothers marrying sisters is more likely that cousins, but your though should not be discounted.
Oh and yes please, it would me nice to see the line down from Ann or Anna Wells ( or Walls). Did they stay in Dumfries?
Henry
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Hi,
Regarding the idea that Michael, John and Edinburgh Laurence were brothers:
I have seen a census with Laurence (M to Martha K) living in Edinburgh with his Uncle Laurence. So I agree with you that Michael and Edinburgh Laurence are probably brothers and have the same father, John Walls Snr.
However, John (m. to Elizabeth Kirkpatrick)´s death cert shows his father as being called Laurence. (Edinburgh Laurence was born around a similar time so Edinburgh L. cannot be his father) also Michael was born around 1785 and John around 1814, which is an awfully wide gap unless they had different mothers, which we do not know.
Here is some info I found for the Kirkpatricks BTW. It looks like Martha and Eliz were sisters:
John Kirkpatrick
Scotland, Births and Baptisms
Name: John Kirkpatrick
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 27 Dec 1812
Christening Place: , DRYFESDALE, DUMFRIES, SCOTLAND
Birth Date: 20 Oct 1812
Mother's Name: Janet Kirkpatrick
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11820-2 , System Origin: Scotland-VR , GS Film number: 1067958 , Reference ID: 2:160W0H8
Elizabeth Kirkpatrick
Scotland, Births and Baptisms
Name: Elizabeth Kirkpatrick
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 29 Dec 1813
Christening Place: , DUMFRIES, DUMFRIES, SCOTLAND
Father's Name: Thomas Kirkpatrick
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C19524-1 , System Origin: Scotland-ODM , GS Film number: 1067959
Margaret Kerr Kirkpatrick
Scotland, Births and Baptisms
Name: Margaret Kerr Kirkpatrick
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 13 Feb 1816
Christening Place: , DUMFRIES, DUMFRIES, SCOTLAND
Father's Name: Thomas Kirkpatrick
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C19524-1 , System Origin: Scotland-VR , GS Film number: 1067959 , Reference ID: 2:169B394
Martha Kirkpatrick
Scotland, Births and Baptisms
Name: Martha Kirkpatrick
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 14 Jul 1818
Christening Place: , DUMFRIES, DUMFRIES, SCOTLAND
Birth Date: 12 Jul 1818
Father's Name: Thomas Kirkpatrick
Mother's Name: Jannet Keir
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C19524-1 , System Origin: Scotland-VR , GS Film number: 1067959 , Reference ID: 2:169BGPH
Oswald Kirkpatrick
Scotland, Births and Baptisms
Name: Oswald Kirkpatrick
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 04 Sep 1820
Christening Place: , DUMFRIES, DUMFRIES, SCOTLAND
Birth Date: 29 Aug 1820
Father's Name: Thomas Kirkpatrick
Mother's Name: Janet Kerr
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11821-8 , System Origin: Scotland-VR , GS Film number: 1067961 , Reference ID: 2:161JW0D
1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Flash, Dumfries, Dumfriesshire, Scotland
First name(s) Last name Gender Age Birth year Birth place
Thomas Kirkpatrick Male 50 1791 Dumfriesshire, Scotland Transcription
Jannet Kirkpatrick Female 50 1791 Dumfriesshire, Scotland Transcription
Margret Kirkpatrick Female 21 1820 Dumfriesshire, Scotland Transcription
Oswald Kirkpatrick Male 18 1823 Dumfriesshire, Scotland Transcription
Thomas Kirkpatrick Male 16 1825 Dumfriesshire, Scotland Transcription
Jean Kirkpatrick Female 19 1822 Dumfriesshire, Scotland Transcription
John Kirkpatrick Male 7 1834 Dumfriesshire, Scotland
Norma
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Norma,
where did you get the kirkpartrick information? I am sure I searched OPR and CRP on scotland's people with no luck.
oh and bridget walls/ mckewan - John walls sr wife and the children in edinburgh, is that 1941 census?
I am sure that Lauerence Wells the pig dealer on John Wells death certificate is a mistake made by the informant John Sanders, the son in law. I think he remembered Lawrence the pig dealer who married Martha K and died 9 years earlier. My feeling is John and Laurence were brothers so Michael was John's father.
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I found the info for the Kirkpatricks on www.familysearch.org
Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born
WALLS Bridget F 60 Lodging Keeper Ireland
WALLS Robert M 25 Agricultural Labourer Outside Census County (1841)
WALLS Rosan F 15 Outside Census County (1841)
WALLS Agnes F 5 Midlothian
WHITE Janet F 34 Washer Midlothian
LOWRY Janet F 17 Not Known Midlothian
RUSSELL Ellen F 19 Not Known Midlothian
EDMOND Jean F 2 Midlothian
WALLS Bridget F 17 Not Known Outside Census County (1841)
Norma