RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: Holmemoss on Monday 22 February 10 09:03 GMT (UK)
-
My ancestors are Scargills in Emley (1840s onwards) but I have many marriages with Leather, Kaye and Gill families, many of whom seemed to be marrying each other.
I am trying to make sense of all this so I am posting to ask if anyone else is researching these families in the 1800s.
-
Researching Scargill in Emley and elsewhere. Have links with the Leather and other families in Emley.
-
I have a Henry Scargill, Marrying Charlotte Peaker, With numerous children. from the Lower Whitley Area, which is near Elland. if any help to either of you ?
Weenie
-
Holmemoss; I have much intermarrying in my trees in both Lincolnshire and especially Cambridgeshire. To such an extent that I recently asked whether the practise was widespread or peculiar to the counties mentioned. It looks as though it may well have been very widespread indeed.
-
Redroger, I don't know what the situation was 'down south' but there were many small villages in the West Riding where people tended to stay (as the work was there) so the marriages were within a relatively small community.
Weenie, I have just found out that I have been in contact with Emley1786 for many years before he joined Rootschat. He is the expert on Scargills so I suggest you contact him.
-
Weenie - Many thanks for the info on Henry Scargill of Lower Whitley. I have record of him and his family - his eldest son William Edward also had a large family. Henry hailed from Thornhill originally where he was baptised in 1843 son of Edward.
-
Emley, I have not researched the childrens families as of yet but will be doing, i have been really concentrating on my direct lines - but if you be so kind may be we could swap info, i have done much research on Charlotte Peaker.
Weenie
-
Weenie,
Info I have on Henry & Charlotte's family is as follows:
Jane Hall Scargill m. Thomas Stott 27 Mar 1889 Lower Whitley
Amy Scargill m. Frank William Birt 6 Apr 1915 Lower Whitley
William Edward Scargill m. Sarah Pickard Lambert 5 May 1892 at Kirkheaton. Known children: Elsie 1892, Albert Edward 1893, Percival Cecil 1896, Ethel 1899, Henry Ezra 1903, Charlotte 1906, Ada Sylvia 1908, George Leslie 1909 and Marjorie 1911.
Ada Scargill m. John Fisher 17 Jan 1898 Thornhill
Ernest Scargill m. Rachel Blakeley 26 Oct 1899 Thornhill
Sarah Hannah Scargill m. George Wentworth Goldsbrough 23 Sep 1899 Lower Whitley
George Henry Scargill - possibly married Beatrice Goble/Stickland 4Q 1921 Dewsbury
Percy Scargill m. Mary Hinchliffe 30 Aug 1909 Lower Whitley
Hope this helps
-
Lower Whitley is near Thornhill, not Elland.
May I please ask for the descent of Henry and his father Edward
-
It does begin to look as though intermarrying and consequent in breeding was widespread in the 19th century and earlier.Thanks for reply.
-
Redroger, I have several first cousin marriages. However, I have over 10,000 people in my tree, many living in small villages, so although I don't think it was unusual it is a minority rather than being widespread.
-
Amongst my Cambridgeshire ancestors intermarriage is the rule rather than the exception.
-
Hi there
Just seen your message re Scargill and Leather in Emley. My GGrandmother was Sophia Lawton 1860, who married Benjamin Scargill 1860 (after having given birth to my Grandmother) and her mother was Jane Leather 1833. My ancestor Ann Parker 1757 married Richard Gill in 1778. Inter-marrying in small communities, you bet!
-
Just to add to the inter-marriage connections: if your Jane is the one baptised 5/4 1833 at Emley dtr of William & Susannah Leather, then her brother Thomas baptised 1837 married Jane Scargill (c1837-1893) in 1860 at Emley who was the second cousin (once removed upwards) of Benjamin Scargill (1859-1940). Thomas Leather died in 1881 and his widow Jane then married her first cousin John Scargill, then a widower, in 1890.
I didn't know that Sophia Lawton had a child prior to her marriage to Benjamin Scargill in late 1884. I only have their daughter Sarah Jane Scargill (b. 1886) on the 1891/1901 census at Emley who married John Richard Lewis in 1906. I note the birth of an Ada Lawton was registered 1Q 1882 in Wakefield RD where the vol/page reference (9c 3) would fit for Emley.
-
nemley, I have William Lawton marrying Jane Leather in 1852 (from FreeBMD so I don't have a date) with Sophia Lawton being baptised at Emley on 12 Jun 1859.
Can you please give the details of Sophia's child before she married Benjamin Scargill.
I have not got as far back as 1700s but I have Jane Leather's parents as William Leather and Susannah Parker, who married at Thornhill on 4 Oct 1832.
-
Sophia Scargill (nee Lawton) was buried at Emley 13 Nov 1912 aged 53
Susannah Leather (nee Parker) was buried Emley 21 Mar 1876 aged 74. On the 1851 Emley census, Susannah was aged 50 and it states she was born at Emley. William Leather would appear to have died before the 1841 census was taken - couldn't see any burial at Emley in the period 1837-41 from a quick look on the NBI. Another child of William & Susannah was Sarah baptised 17 May 1835 and buried 17 Feb 1837 aged 1 at Emley.
-
Re families intermarrying.
Rachel Blakely's mother was the sister-in-law of my g.g.grandfather (John Taylor). Rachel's sister Emma married the grandson of another of John's sisters.
-
Emley1786 and Holmemoss.
I stated in a previous reply that my Grandmother Eliza Lawton b1874 was the daughter of Sophia Lawton b1859, I was wrong. Having sent for Eliza's birth cert, I can confirm that she is in fact the daughter of Alice Lawton b1855. I can only apologise for my mistake in having opened my mouth without first checking all the facts. It is a lesson I have learnt, and hopefully, won't do it again.
Nemley.
-
Thanking you for your post.
We have all made mistakes; the rule of thumb is to check, check and check again!
-
Don't apologise Nemley, it is good and refreshing to see a researcher prepared to admit to an error. Too many don't or can't be bothered, and leave erroneous information on sites to the detriment of us all.
-
For any family members still watching this topic, a new member Angela Hutchinson has used the 'report to moderator' button instead of posting on the topic.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=291642
l am a Scargill fom Emley and trying to find leathers has l thourght my grandma was a leather and then find she married as a Hill
and
can you tell me about the Leathers
Angela, unfortunately you don't have a post count so I can't send you a message directly but please come back to the topic and use the blue reply button to post a message here.
Dawn
-
The only direct Scargill-Leather link I’m aware of in Emley is the marriage of Thomas Leather and Jane Scargill in 1860. Noting your grandmother was a Hill, am I correct in assuming your grandfather was Edgar Scargill? If so, Jane Scargill was the first cousin of Edgar’s grandfather Edmund Scargill.
-
Emley1786 is, of course, correct - the only direct Scargill link is the marriage of Thomas Scargill on 28th July, 1860 at St Michael's Church in Emley.
If your Grandmother was Elizabeth A. Hill, she married Edgar Scargill in 1918 and they had two - possibly three - children, I am not sure about Muriel born in 1931 as she is ten years after Reginald.
The birth of an Elizabeth Ann Hill was registered in Wakefield in 1891 and the birth of an Elizabeth Ann Hill was registered in Wortley in 1897 - but I am only guessing one of these is your Grandmother - maybe the latter.
If you let us know what you are trying to find out then we can help.
-
Elizabeth Ann Hill's age was given as 20 when she married at Emley in April 1918 which could point to the Elizabeth Ann where the birth was registered in 1897 at Wortley. No father was stated for Elizabeth Ann in the 1918 marriage register entry and in the online GRO indexes, no mother's maiden name is given for Elizabeth Ann Hill's birth registration in 1897. Noting that this may indicate that Elizabeth Ann was born out of wedlock and could have been recorded under other surnames, I had a look at the Emley census returns and did note an Elizabeth Hannah Leather aged 3 on the 1901 census daughter of Ashley Walker Leather and wife Esther Hannah and born in Silkstone near Barnsley (ties in with a birth registered in the Wortley district). She is then listed on the 1911 Emley census as E A Leather aged 13 with her parents and younger brother Lawrence Walker Leather although her place of birth is then given as Emley. After a quick dig around, I haven't found anything to link directly with the Hill family but this may be worth exploring further. Ashley Walker Leather married Esther Hannah Peel in 1892 and whilst I can find a birth record for their son Lawrence in 1901 (GRO indexes with mother's maiden name given as Peel), I haven't been able to do so for Elizabeth Leather around 1897/8. Ashley Walker Leather was one of the sons of Thomas Leather and Jane Scargill born in 1867 and died at Emley in 1917 - I saw his gravestone at Emley church a few years ago.
I can confirm that Muriel was the third child of Edgar and Elizabeth.
-
According to the 1939 register, Elizabeth Ann was born 14 Aug 1897. I have found a Elizabeth Ann Hill baptised at Dodworth (near Silkstone) in Oct 1897 daughter of Hannah Hill - no father named. Looking at the 1918 marriage entry for Edgar and Elizabeth Ann again, the witnesses were Florence Scargill and Frank Stanley White. Frank White was the son of Robert White and Alice Peel who were married in 1893. Alice was the sister of Esther Hannah Peel (daughters of George Peel of Emley) who married Ashley Walker Leather and who in turn was a witness at Robert and Alice’s marriage. This lends weight to a possible link between Ashley Leather and Elizabeth Ann Hill and that she is the Elizabeth Leather named as the daughter of Ashley on the 1901 and 1911 Emley census. Is Esther Hannah Peel and Hannah Hill in the 1897 Dodworth baptism entry the same person - and the unnamed father called Hill??
-
Angela, Emley1786 and I would be more than willing to help but we cannot do so without any input from you.
Did you by any chance marry a Mr Peel in 1970?
-
If Elizabeth Ann Leather was Ashley's how did she become a Hill when she got married Edgar,l found her born in 1898 August14th
-
Hello Angela and welcome to Rootschat.
Please understand life was different in the late 1800s, there was very little mobility so people tended to stay in the village where they were born; families were large so people were often inter-related and very close knit.
There was no contraception and illegitimate babies were not uncommon and they could quite easily have been given a different surname in the census to disguise the illegitimacy. Women died in childbirth so the father gave the baby away because he couldn't look after it, again possibly resulting in a different surname.
All of us conducting our family history cannot assume and jump to conclusions, we have to have documentary evidence.
Emley1786 says Elizabeth was born on 14th August, 1897 but you say 1898 - what evidence do you have for 1898?
-
Hello Angela. The birth date of 14 Aug 1897 in the 1939 register would be from information given by Elizabeth Ann herself at the time. It is of course possible that the year may have been misheard or mistranscribed but other evidence does support Aug 1897 rather than Aug 1898 for her birth date. Firstly, Elizabeth Ann gave her age as 20 when she married in Apr 1918 and secondly her age was given as 70 when she died in the 4th quarter (Oct-Dec) of 1967. Thirdly, assuming she is the Elizabeth Leather on the 31 Mar 1901 and 2 Apr 1911 census, her stated age of 3 and 13 on these two returns would again align with her birth in Aug 1897 rather than Aug 1898. Where does your date of 1898 stem from? Based on information gleaned so far, I can only speculate as to why Elizabeth Ann could have been known both as Hill and Leather. As Holmemoss states, a frequent reason for this was illegitimacy and I have seen this many times in my research over the years. If the Oct 1897 baptism of Elizabeth Ann daughter of Hannah Hill at Dodworth is the same person who married Edgar, it could be that Ashley Leather was the father and that he and his wife Esther Hannah Leather later adopted Elizabeth Ann and used the surname Leather on the census returns. Unfortunately, the Dodworth baptism register did not record the date of birth as well as baptism and so there is no direct birth date evidence (i.e. 14 Aug) to link this baptism to your grandmother. Ashley died in 1917 shortly before Elizabeth Ann was married and so is it possible that her true parentage was revealed at this time and she decided to use her birth surname subsequently - both for her marriage in 1918 and when giving her maiden name when registering the births of her three children between 1918 and 1931. In your first post, you mentioned that you thought that Elizabeth Ann was called Leather until you found her marriage record. What evidence do you have that she used the surname Leather? Do you have any information that corroborates a link with Ashley Leather? As Holmemoss states, we’re happy to try and help if we can and would appreciate any further information you have that would assist.
-
Hi to you both,l found the birth date on a web site at the library it gave me the 14th august1898 this was under leather in Emley. l am her granddaughter and have a childrens book she gave me it has her name and address in which was Leather, the names of Ashley walker no lastname and Ester Hannah peel also came up.sorry l hope this makes sense to you l have just started .
-
Hi Angela. Can you let us know which website you looked at? Unless the website is citing an original historical source, e.g. parish register, birth certificate etc, I would urge caution in assuming the stated date is correct. There is a great deal of inaccurate family history information posted on the web. If the book your grandmother gave you has the names of Ashley and Esther Leather then this is a further indication that your grandmother is the Elizabeth Leather listed on the 1901/11 census as Ashley’s daughter. I had a look at the probate indexes for Ashley and Esther in 1917 and 1949 and also that of their son Lawrence Walker Leather in 1955 to see if there was any mention of Elizabeth Ann Hill or Scargill as an executor or administrator but unfortunately not. I also looked at the marriage record of Lawrence Leather to Glady Simms in 1933 at Thornes church near Wakefield in case it recorded Elizabeth Ann Scargill as a witness but again not unfortunately. The following is only a suggestion but it might be worth considering ordering a copy of the birth certificate for the Elizabeth Ann Hill birth registered at Wortley in 1897 to see if the date of birth aligns with 14 Aug 1897 stated by Elizabeth on the 1939 register and to see if the certificate reveals any further clues.
-
Hi this is helpful l will take your advice and carry on. thank you.
-
Angela, I agree with Emley1786's statement - there is a lot of very inaccurate information posted on family history web sites. People also make mistakes - read nemley's post on 28th January, 2011 above.
Let us know if you order the birth certificate and what information it contains.
-
A post by Emley1786 mentioned that William Leather who married Susannah Parker appeared to have died prior to the 1841 census. That is incorrect. William Leather had been convicted of felony theft in April 1840 and was transported for 7 years, leaving Chatham Docks in December that year and arriving in Van Diemen's Land in April 1841. That explains why Susannah continued to be described in subsequent census returns as married, but her husband was (almost) nowhere to be found.