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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Denbighshire => Wales => Denbighshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: WelshYorkie on Tuesday 23 February 10 00:48 GMT (UK)
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This is my first posting so hopfully it's in the correct place
I am looking for the parents and family of my GtGt Grandfather Richard Roberts b Chirk 1827 he married Matha Evans b 1831 Brynkinalt. Any information would be appreciated Thank you :)
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Hi
Welcome to Rootschat. I am sure that you will find lots of very capable people more than willing to help you out.
After a look at the 1841 Census I found this that might be of use... there were three families of ROBERTS all in a row...I have highlighted the one I think could be your Richard.... appears his father could be Richard... but no mother given ..
1841 Census Wales Denbighshire Chirk
HO107/1399/6/3
Township of Brynknialt?
ROBERTS
Richard 55 Coal Miner Born in County
Richard 15 Coal Miner Born in County
Thomas 10 Born in County
Maria 20 Born in County
John MATE 20 Coal Miner Born in County
ROBERTS
William 35 Coal Miner Born in County
Jane 35 Born in County
William 12 Coal Mine Labourer Born in County
Mary 11 Born in County
John 8 Born in County
Jane 6 Born in County
George 4 Born in County
Solomon 2 Born in County
Thomas 5mths Born in County
ROBERTS
Richard 43 Coal Miner Born in County
Frances 40 Born in County
Matthew 15 Coal Miner Born in County
Rose 7 Born in County
Cheers
Karenlee
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Wow that was quick. Thank you That will get me started again. :) :)
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Hi
Welcome WY :)
Think these might be my rellies too :)
I'll go do a search and be back
Hi Karen :D
Gadget
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Hi
I've got two possibles for you
Baptisms - Chirk parish records:
20 August 1826 Richard Roberts s/o Richard (collier) and Mary , living Green Lane
13 July 1828 Richard Roberts s/o William (collier) and Mary. living Chirk Green
Gadget
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I think it might be worth you getting the marriage cert to find out which Richard this is .
Martha Evans and Richard Roberts on the same page for this marriage reg:
Dec q, 1850, Wrexham, vol 27 page 454
Gadget
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Hi again
I don't see Martha's bpt in the Chirk registers :-\
As you have her born Brynkinallt, I'm wondering if she was baptised in St Martins?
Gadget
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Hi Gadget :)
Thank you for the info. Did not expect to find a distant relative.
I am fairly sure that Richard Roberts Married Martha Evans but i will get marrage cert.
1871 census Has Richard and Martha living at 6 upper Barracks Chirk with children Samuel Alice and my Grandfather Richard A (Alexander)age 3 and Lodger John Roberts 19.
The two possibilities look interesting on a hunch would say Richard and Mary. Being new to this have you any ideas where I can look to confirm. ??? :)
Thanks Again
WY WelshYorkie
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Hi again :)
Their marriage cert should give Richard's father's name. Also, Green Lane was in Halton/ Black Park (my great grandparents, Henry Roberts and Elizabeth Stokes, lived there from 1870s to late 1890s). This area was allocated to Brynkinallt township in the early censuses.
Not sure if we are related or not - but they do say that everyone from that area are. Maria Roberts (on the first censuus entry) married John Mates who was the brother of one of my direct ancestors.
Gadget
Added - Richard Alexander - we might be doubly related because I think one of my Stokes ancestors married a Richard Alexander Roberts :o
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Just been checking up on Richard Aelxander - this from a larger listing
6.10 Mary Ellen Stokes 1870 – after 1932
Married 1888, Richard Alexander Roberts, a coal miner, (1868 – after 1932, b. Chirk).
Had the following known children:
1887 James Donald Stokes, b. Chirk
1889 John Richard, b. Chirk
1891 Joseph, b. Chirk
1893 Alice, b. Normanton
1895 Louisa, b. Normanton
1897 Marie, b. Normanton
1899 Lawrence W, b. Normanton
Census locations:
1891 43 Halton Buildings, Halton RG12/2118/154/9 (father John Stokes was living with them)
1901 447 Castleford Rd, Normanton RG13/4281/56/24
They were still in Normanton in 1932 (listed in a funeral report)
(Just realised that I've not got them from the 1911 yet so had better go searching)
Are these yours, otherwise I'll check on my main computer later?
Mary Ellen Stokes was my great grandmother, Elizabeth's, sister. This also means that you're related to the Par(r)ishes. Their mother was Caroline Parish who married John Stokes :)
Gadget
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This might be of interest - from the same file :)
6. John Stokes 1821 – 1900
A coal miner.
Married 23 December 1848, Chirk, Caroline Par(r)ish (1828 - 1889, b. Black Park, Chirk).
Had the following known children:
1849 Ann, b. Willenhall
1851 Martha, b. Willenhall
1853 Elizabeth, b. Willenhall
1856 James, b. Willenhall
1860 William, b. Willenhall
1862 Louisa, b. Chirk
1864 Caroline, b. Chirk
1868 Susannah, b. Chirk
1870 Mary Ellen, b. Chirk
John Stokes was b. April 1821, Bronygarth, St Martins. Parents - Edward Stokes, coal miner (1777-1839) and Catherine Jones (1792 to after 1841 - despite masses of searches by my cousin and I and records office staff , we've never found her burial/death)
Gadget :)
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This looks like your Martha Evans on the 1841:
New Barrracks, Black Park, Brynkinallt, Chirk
HO10/139/19/9
Evans
John, 75, ag lab, not born county
Elizabeth, 60
Sarah, 30, char woman
Susanna, 12
Samuel, 13
Martha, 9
Frederick, 4
Thomas, 4
Edwin, 8 months
Mary, not born county
All others born county.
It looks as if Sarah might be her mother but the 1841 didn't give relationships so it's just guessing.
Gadget
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Had a quick look in my Chirk parish records again for any baptisms to the Evans family.
This looks very interesting:
26 January 1837 Frederick Evans, illegitimate son of Anne Evans (servant) , reputed father Richard Roberts. Park Gate.
By 1851, Frederick Evans is lodging in Pontyblew - not far from Black Park but on the Ceiriog. I assume that Martha is now married - not checked yet.
I'm busy for the rest of the day but will try to do some more exploring later on your Richard Roberts
Gadget
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Hi Gadget :)
Yes they are all my family Aunts ad uncles. Mary Ellen Stokes was my Grandma. Richard A and Mary Ellen went onto have another 5 children the youngest born in 1911. Not sure relationship with James Donald we called him Uncle Jim. John Richard known as Jack went into army died of flue abt 1918. I have Mary Ellen Daughter of John Stokes and Caroline Parish from St Martins Shropshire.
Will need a bit of time to absorb all the excellent info you have provide. I have more information about the rest of the children of Richard A(Dick)& Mary Ellen if you are interested.
Thanks again Gadget Great stuff :) :D
WY
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Hi again WY :)
It looks as if we are 2nd cousins, once removed.
I'd love to have more info on Mary Ellen's children. However, we're not allowed to mention living people on the forum so if any of them are alive, please send me a PM (private message)
Gadget
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Goodness, gracious and all that - it looks as if we're maybe related by yet another line :o
I see (from Chirk marriages) that a Richard Roberts (widower) married a Mary Cash (widow) on 12th July 1819. The witnesses were Richard Roberts and Jane Cash.
My ancestor Thomas Mates married Ann Cash (3 x grt grandparents) on 8th April 1820 and one of the witnesses was Jane Cash
Sooooooooo, if this was the Richard Roberts and Mary, parents of your Richard Roberts, then we're related via the Cash line as well.
Think I'll go look for more info!
Gadget
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A few excerpts from my great Grandfather Henry Roberts' diary for 1900:
27.05.1900. The old man Stokes (John Stokes) taken ill this morning bad pain in side and to work tonight if spared.
28.05.1900. The old man very ill on this date. Mrs. Roberts (Elizabeth Stokes) went to see him he was very ill.
29.05.1900. Seth (Twigg, I think)came here to say that old man was worse. Mother (Elizabeth Stokes) went to see him. John Stokes died on this date at 4 oclock Tuesday May 29 1900.
05.06.1900. At Chirk Station sending Uncle James Stokes and Polly Roberts home to Yorkshire.
Polly Roberts was your grandmother, Mary Ellen :)
Note, my Henry Roberts and your Roberts line were from different Roberts lines.
Gadget
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Wow cant take all this info in :o
I will send you info about the children of Dick and Mary by private message, one problem don't know how to do it. :-[
If you could point me in the right direction would be appreciated.
So second cousin once removed ;) Is this Richard that married Mary Cash the father of Richard b 1827 ???
Thanks again Gadget I'm in information overload but it is absolutely great
Thanks
WY
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I'm getting a bit boggled as well :o
I'll send you a PM with my e-mail and you can send info to that address or , when you get the PM, you can reply to that - info here:
http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
Gadget
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How wonderfull to be able to see a snippet of our family
Granddad Richard (Dick) always called Mary Ellen (Pol ) I did not know her birth name until abt a years ago.
Some of Dick and Pols children also had family names and birth names
Thank WY
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Thanks got pm link will try and PM later.
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Here's a photo of Elizabeth Roberts nee Stokes in the1920s in Chirk Green:
(http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=423052.0;id=162531;image)
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Cousin WY ~
I've been looking at the Chirk parish records and I think that the Richard and Mary that I identified are yours.
I'll get back tomorrow with more info.
My big Sis says hello as well :)
Gadget
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Hi Cus and big Sis ;)
Did you get my email ???
Attached there is a photo of Dick and Pol. Have not sussed it out how to send photos here
WY
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Just seen it - my goodness - we are definitely the same family :o
It is nice to find a really close cousin :)
Will be in touch tomorrow with more info
Gadget
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Hi again WY :)
I've been working through the records and census info to try to decide whether or not your Richard is the son of Richard and Mary or William and Jane.
I'm about 90% sure that he's the son of Richard and Mary (his age is consistent with the 1826 bpt throughout the censuses) but there's that doubt still :-\ Is it possible for you to get Richard and Martha's marriage cert to make certain?
In the mean time, I have these baptisms to Richard Roberts and Mary, listed as living either Halton or Green Lane:
Maria Roberts bpt 20 August 1820
Harriett Roberts bpt 25 April 1824
Richard Roberts bpt 20 Aug 1826
Thomas Roberts bpt 3 Oct 1830
On 1851 in Chirk:
Woodside Cottages (* only a few households away from Richard, jnr, and Martha)
HO107/1993/ 806/13
Roberts
Richard,widr, 68, coal miner, b. Salop, Oswestry
Harriett, d, 27
Thomas, s, 20
Robert, s, 5
All b. Chirk except Richard
Possible birth for Richard (IGI)
Oswestry 21 March 1785 (bpt. 23) Richard s/o John Roberts and Jane
I'm still trying to fathom out whether Mary was a Cash by marriage ar by birth. You may recall that she was down as a widow on the marriage entry.
Gadget
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Possible death for Mary:
Mary Roberts (Halton) - burial 23 February 1840 aged 55
I've so far not been able to definitely trace Harriett and the Robert Roberts, down as Richard's son, aged 5, on the 1851. I think Robert is in Ruabon as an apprentice.
The John Roberts, aged 19, that you mention living with Richard and Martha on the 1871, looks as if he's the son of a Thomas Roberts and Maria (1861 census). I'll investigate further because they are living next to Richard and Martha on the 1861.
Also, there is a Samuel Evans, aged 32, boarding with Richard and Martha on the 1861. This ties in very nicely with the Evans family that I found on the 1841(Reply #11)
Gadget
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Hi Gadget sent for Marriage cert for Richard and Martha.
Will let you know details upon receipt.
Talking to a good Friend of mine about the recent developments.
We believe we have found Uncle James Stokes referred to in your Great Grandfathers diary of 1900 :o
1881 census
James Stokes Living at 310 Park Row Normanton Yorkshire age 48 born Salop Chirk
Wife Sarah age 48 born Salop Chirk
Next Door
Joseph Stokes living at 309 Park Row age 39 Widower born Salop Chirk.
In 1901 we have James and Sarah living at 3 Foxbridge Row he was probably coming to this address when your Gt Grandfather saw James and My grandmother pol of at chirk station.
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Hi WY
:)
I think I have a bit on Uncle James - deaths, etc. I'll go check them up.
They didn't have any children and James seemed to visit Chirk quite regularly.
Henry stayed with them in Normanton as well. In fact I think Henry and his brother Evan were in Normanton for a few years before he married.
Gadget
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Here's a thread that I put up a while ago. i think I have more info now but you might be able to fill me in on some of them:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,139113.0.html
Gadget
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Just been looking at James Stokes death cert ~
He died 23 March 1910 at 188 Castleford Road, Normanton, Aged 81. Coal Miner
Richard Roberts, nephew, present at the death, was the imformant. He gives the same address.
Thought you'd be interested in that :)
Gadget
PS - the Joseph Stokes is, I think the son of William Stokes and Winifred Powell, born St Martins 1841. i have this birth cert too
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Thanks Gadget :)
188 cas rd is the address of Richard and Mary Ellen (Stokes) Roberts this is where they both lived until death
Found bit more info. neext door to 188 is Chirk Villas and I am told Aunty Sue lived there before Moving to Blackpool could this be Susannah the sister of Elizabeth, and Mary Ellen ???
Interesting Wy
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Hi Gadget bit more info :)
You seem to already have most of the info sent so far But its all new to me.
sorry if you have this also :-[
Jim Stokes who believed to be adopted by Richard and Mary Ellen. Jim went to live in Leeds sorry don't Know wife's name but had 4 Children not sure if the are still alive so let me know if you want the names and I will mail you
Thanks Again
WY
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Hi WY
I thought that Jim (James Donald) was Mary Ellen's son. Not sure where I got the info - maybe a birth cert of something. I'll check it out.
Would love any details of that line too.
Do you have a family history program for creating trees? I've got all the Stokes info in a Gedcom file and I could send it, if you can read it.
Gadget
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I've been checking through and I'm not sure how I have the info but I think it might well have been given me by a cousin. Donald from New jersey, who died a few years ago. We did most of the Stokes research together :)
I'll have to check through a lot of e-mails and files.
Here's James Donald Stokes's birth registration:
James Donald Stokes, Sept q, 1886, Oswestry vol 6a page 695.
Gadget
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Hi WY
I'm getting my Stokes family up to date on the 1911 and, as you've got a considerable amount of info on our Normanton families, I was wondering if you know of this one:
Thomas Parish Stokes - ill. son of my Elizabeth. b. 1872, Chirk. He was my great uncle. Married 1899 Sarah Jane Evans. They had three sons to my knowledge:
1903 Dennis - Chirk
1904 Donald - Chirk
1906 George - Normanton
Living 4 Regents Street, Benson Lane, Normanton on last available census (lovely handwriting :) )
Wreath for his mother in 1930 states - 'from Tom, Susie and family'
I can't find a second marriage for him so am wondering if this was a misprint for Sarah :-\
My Dad said the family used to refer to him as 'Tom Stokes'
Grateful for any info after 1911.- but if they're still living, it will have to be via e-mail.
Gadget
PS - just seen your bit about 'Aunty Sue' - wondering if it was her but she married George Williams :-\
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Hy Gadget Sorry don,t know Thomas Parish Stokes. :((but of course we will look into this. The address you gave Benson lane is just opposite side of 188 Catleford road.
I think we maybe onto something with Aunt Sue. Talking to a older lady in the village late last year she told me her relation lived next door to Granddad her family name Williams
I have not seen her around but will make an effort to go and see her.
Fingers crossed.
WY
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Aunt Sue (Susannah Wiliams) did eventually move to Blackpool - it's in Lizzie Roberts (nee Stokes) funeral report :D
I've had my head in the 1911 for all the descendants of Edward Stokes and Catherine Jones! I had about 30 pages written out on them and had traced most to 1901 so you can imagine how many descendants there are to chase up. I'll let you have a copy when I've finished.
I've now found 2 x great granddad, John Stokes (your 1 x great), on the 1841 in Bilston, Staffs with his sister Martha (1817, St Martins) who married a William Hanmer, Dec q, 1837. Strange thing is that the Hanmers, plus two children (Edward and Mary Ann) disappear after 1841 - can't find deaths, census info or anything. I think I also tried emmigration as well.**
My router is playing up at the moment, which isn't helping me do the searches but I'll get there :)
Gadget
** Have since found them in Pennsylvania - see:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,454268.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,454300.0.html
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Hi WY
I'm now pretty certain, from the marriage cert, that Richard Roberts's parents are Richard Roberts (b. Oswestry) and Mary Cash.
As she was a widow when she married Richard, I'm still not sure whether Mary's maiden name was Cash or if that was her married name :-\ The only Mary that I can find was baptised in 1793 to Edward Cash and Ann of Brynkinallt. They were the parents of Jane Cash who was a witness at the marriage of Mary and Richard.
I'll have to do some more investigating.
Gadget
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Thanks Gadget will send copy of cert email
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The cert would be useful as I'm going around in circles - I can't find a suitable marriage for a Mary to a Cash or of a Mary Cash to anyone in either Chirk or St Martins around the time that would make her a widow when she and Richard Roberts married :-\ I could try a few other of the surrounding parishes as there were quite a lot of movements in to Chirk at that time because of coal mining. Cash was one of the prominent surnames in Chirk/St Martins though and I've still not fully worked them all out in my line!
Given that Jane Cash was a witness at the wedding, we could go down the 'Cash as maiden name route' for the moment to see what comes up!. The best fit that I can find in Chirk is:
Baptism ~ 10 June 1792 (b. 19 May) Mary d/o Edward Cash and Ann of Brynkinallt
Marriage ~ 24 May 1790 Edward Cash and Ann Francis (ba and sp) Witnesses Thomas Rogers and William Parish (another one of ours ::) ) All made their marks rather than signing.
Gadget
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Bringing these children of Richard's and Mary's forward:
I have these baptisms to Richard Roberts and Mary, listed as living either Halton or Green Lane:
Maria Roberts bpt 20 August 1820
Harriett Roberts bpt 25 April 1824
Richard Roberts bpt 20 Aug 1826
Thomas Roberts bpt 3 Oct 1830
Also Richard's, age and place of birth in 1851:
Woodside Cottages (* only a few households away from Richard, jnr, and Martha)
HO107/1993/ 806/13
Roberts
Richard,widr, 68, coal miner, b. Salop, Oswestry
Harriett, d, 27
Thomas, s, 20
Robert, s, 5
All b. Chirk except Richard
Richard therefore born circa 1783-ish
The only baptism for a Richard Roberts showing in Oswestry around that time is the one that I mentioned before (IGI)
Oswestry 21 March 1785 (bpt. 23) Richard s/o John Roberts and Jane
I can't find a marriage for these two so far and Roberts is not the easiest is it :-X :-X :-X
An interesting piece of info from the 1851 is that a Thomas and Charlotte Richards are living next door to Richard Roberts* on the 1851. Thomas was b. Ellesmere.
Gadget
*Too many Richards. I meant Richard Roberts, senior. Richard and Martha are on the next page :)
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Hi both!! I am the great granddaughter of Richard Roberts and Mary Ellen Stokes. My grandad was their youngest son Reginald. I have been struggling trying to plough through the Richard Roberts and was getting very confused with Martha Evans and Mary Cash.
Just wondering how you are both related to Richard Roberts, would love to compare note, photos etc.
Hope to hear from you
Leslie Walker (nee Roberts)
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Hi leswal
Please to make contact. :)
I am the Grandson of Richard and Mary Ellen and worked with our Grandad Reg. (as he was known), by the way he was not the youngest son. My father Maurice was 1911-2000. Would love to give you more information. If you want send me a P.M. with you email I would love to have a chat.
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sorry am new to this, how do I give you my hotmail, would love to chat??? I must have met you I am Lloyds daughter and we used to come up to Uncle Mo and Auntie Madges for parties!!!! Small World
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I looked at the Chirk parish records this afternoon, trying to get some things straight myself. My son is descended on his mother's side from Elizabeth Cash who m. John Jones in 1824. Martha Cash was a witness.
Looks like Edward Cash (1755-1831) was the husband of Ann - they lived in the Black Park area of Chirk Parish. Edward must have had a son Edward (1782-1818). He lived in Halton. It was *his* wife who was Mary Morris. They were married in 1805. I suppose she remarried shortly after he died.
Now what is throwing me is that Martha Cash b. 1799 is said to be daughter of Edward and Mary - except I suspect this is an error and her mother was Ann.
Any further thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Looks like Elizabeth Cash - for whom I cannot find a birth record - had a daughter Priscilla out of wedlock in 1822. She is listed as age 15 in 1841 Census, but now I think this Priscilla Jones was really her mother's daughter prior to marriage.
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Any info on the John Jones who married Elizabeth Cash?
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Sure. Elizabeth Cash married John Jones in Chirk in 1824. They had children there into the 1840s. In 1841 they were living in the township of Brynkinalt, Black-Park barracks, where there son, Job, is apparently working as a coal miner at age twelve. By 1851 they had moved to Bilston in Staffordshire, England. John and Elizabeth (or Eliza) both still alive at this point - John still working as a coal miner. The family is still living in Bilston in 1861 with John working as a coal miner. I lose track of them by 1871 (perhaps deceased, or perhaps John is incorrectly logged as being born in Bilston but living in a poorhouse), except for their son Job who was living in Willenhall, Staffordshire in 1861, and then Hednesford, Cannock, Staffordshire in 1871. His daughter Anne married Thomas Hearp in 1884 and they subsequently moved to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA.
It appears John Jones was born in Chirk in 1804, son of John and Elizabeth. My current speculation is that his parents were married in Chirk in 1794, and father was from Llangollen and mother Elizabeth Hughes (dau. of John and Ann Hughes, who serve as witnesses) was living in Chirk.
I am checking more Chirk records today at a family history center. If you respond promptly, I will be able to do a look-up for you if you have a specific record for which you are looking.
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It seems the John Jones I'm following married another Elizabeth and had children in Chirk among them William and Henry,he is given as born in Glyndyfrdwy in c 1800 in the 1851 Census.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Perhaps of interest...John Mates who m. Maria Roberts, living in Bilston, Staffordshire with Cash young men in the 1851 Census. Seems like there was decent amount of migration from Chirk to Bilston between 1841 and 1851.
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I'm not sure if you're still around, evan2wo, but I have only just seen this section of the thread while searching for my other cousins' posts.
John Mates was the 2nd son of Ann Cash and Thomas Mates. Thomas Mates died in 1824 and Ann subsequently married Benjamin Twigg. Thomas and Ann were my 3xgreat grandparents via their son, James. Thomas died in a mining accident, aged 25.
I've done lots of research on the families and, from memory, this Mates line married into the Leadbitters and Jamieson families in Co. Durham and some of them emigrated to USA.
Gadget