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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: kenneth cooke on Friday 26 February 10 20:08 GMT (UK)
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My great great grandfather John Paget Sweny of Dublin 1810-1883 was a proprietor of coaches & undertaker. The family were C of I (Anglican). John and his wife Matilda Yeates had 14 children:
Eugene 1836-1906, Thomasina Bourne 1838-1873, Margaret Faulkner 1839-1882, Paget Halpin 1841-42, Lydia 1842-1931, Georgina Matilda 1844-76, Abraham 1845, Mark Halpin 1847, Louisa Mary 1848, William Halpin 1850, Emily (Amelia) 1852-1928, Jemima Paget 1854, Ralph William Champion 1856-1923, John Paget 1860-1901
I am looking for information about Lydia, Georgina, Abraham, and Mark,
also for confirmation that Louisa married Wm Hodges in 1870, and that Jemima married Ebenezer Boggs in New York in 1872 (they may have returned to Ireland.)
An Emily Sweeney, who married Edward N. Harding in about 1872 seems to be ours.
John’s nephew was Frederick William Sweny, chemist of 1 Lincoln Place. This was the chemist shop made famous by James Joyce in “Ulysses”. It was closed down only last year.
Ken
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Hi Ken
Have you looked on the Irish GRO BMD Indexes at
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=home
You will find that Louisa and William did marry in 1870 - you only need to order a photocopy of the marriage entry from the GRO in Roscommon..........
http://www.groireland.ie/
Best of luck
HB
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I've just found that Matilda Sweny nee Yeates, died in the 3rd quarter of 1900, aged 84, reg. in Sth Dublin.
She was baptised at St. Mary's Dublin on 9 April 1815. Her parents were
Kendrick & Margaret Yeates, of Mary St. Dublin.
Also that Thomasina Bourne Cooke, nee Sweny, died in Nth Dublin in 1873.
She was the wife of Wm Bromley Cooke, brother of my Gr grandfather Thomas.
Ken
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I should explain that two Cooke brothers, William Bromley and Thomas Smith
Cooke, married two Sweny sisters, Thomasina & Margaret. John Paget Sweny and his brother Dr. Mark were the witnesses at the double wedding in Dublin in 1859.
Thomas & Margaret brought their family to Australia in 1871. Thomasina died in 1873 and William returned to England and remarried.
Mark had his practice at 1 Lincoln Place, which later became the site of the chemist shop, run by his son Frederick.
Mark & John were the sons of Eugene Sweny, coachmaker of Lower Camden St.
Ken
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Here is the list of Sweny in Dublin in 1939
Name Year Unit Polling Elec No. House no. Street
Sweny, Charles 1939-40 CABRAGH BB 358 11 ST. ATTRACTA ROAD
Sweny, Edith 1939-40 ARRAN QUAY AM 717 4 ROYSE ROAD
Sweny, Margaret 1939-40 CABRAGH BB 359 11 ST. ATTRACTA ROAD
Sweny, Ralph S. 1939-40 ARRAN QUAY AM 716 4 ROYSE ROAD
Sweny, Reginald 1939-40 TRINITY VA 219 1 LINCOLN PLACE
Sweny, Sarah 1939-40 TRINITY VA 218 1 LINCOLN PLACE
According to the voting register in 1832
John Paget Sweny was living in 6 Camden Street and he was a coachmaker.
We also had in 1837
A Henry Cope Sweny esq: Gardiner's Place: Freeholder
John Sweny: Mountjoy Sq, Barrister.
We had in 1832
A Welbore Ellis Sweny esq, Mountjoy Sq
Also in 1813 there was a will left by a Thomas Sweny of Dame Street Dublin. NA Ref Prerogative Will Book/F/286b
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In reply to ambyrne:
Reginald Sweny was the youngest son of Fredk Wm, the chemist, and the last Sweny to live at 1 Lincoln Place. He was 24. Not sure if Sarah was his wife or his mother.
Charles must be Regd's brother, and Margt was his wife. His son Charles later brought his family to Australia.
Ralph was Ralph Schomberg Sweny,42, a grandson of John Paget, and Edith is
either his wife or daughter.
John Paget Sweny in 1832 was 21 yrs and still at home. He may have been listed as a coachmaker with his father. Later Eugene was listed as an undertaker, but that line was continued by John at another address.
Henry Cope Sweeny was Eugene's 2nd cousin. Welbore Ellis, an army officer
was Henry's brother. I can't say who Thomas was.
Thanks for finding these entries,
Regards,
Ken
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A contributor on another forum wrote:
"Another site named Eugene Sweeney in 1842 as a Churchwarden at Crumlin Parish Church. I presume it was Eugene of 1785."
Yes, he was JP Sweny's father, whose coachmaking business was in Camden St. He was also listed in the directories as Eugene Sweny Esq. of Cromwell's Fort, Crumlin, where he had a farm. I guess he resided there and would have attended the local church.
Ken
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Eugene Sweeney Churchwarden
Information can be found on:
failteromhat.com/dublin/wardens/ward2pdf
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K.C.
If you would like the entries for Sweny at No.1 Lincoln Place and Lower Camden Street from the Irish Times from 1859-1901 just let me know.
Regards Quaxer
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To Quaxar,
Yes please, I probably have some of the information, but there's sure to be
something new.
Thanks,
Ken
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Ken,
You can request the above will from the National Archives for €2.54. In the will's it usually states sons and daughters of Thomas and also address and you can fit him into the tree...
http://www.nationalarchives.ie/PDF/WillProbateForm.pdf
ann marie
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Thanks Ann Marie
I don't know a Thomas, but I'll keep the ref. for later,
Regards,
Ken
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Cecil Talbot Harding b after 1910 was the uncle of D L Walker & siblings.
son of Alfred Paget Harding and Wilhemina Dawson.of Dublin
Cecil died as an infant.
Trying to find a connection with his middle name of Talbot I found the following information.
1. JOSEPH THOMAS TALBOT Male
Birth: 12 NOV 1867 , Dublin, Ireland
Parents:
Father: THOMAS TALBOT Family
Mother: MARY ANNE HALPIN
2. CLARA MATILDA TALBOT Pedigree
Birth: 25 JUL 1867 0513, Dublin, Dublin, Ireland
Parents:
Father: WILLIAM HENRY TALBOT Family
Mother: GEORGINA MATILDA SWEENY (sister of Emily Sweeney)
CONCLUSION
Cecil is the grandson of Emily Harding nee Sweeney and therefore the grand nephew of Georgina Matilda Talbot nee Sweeney.
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I've found a Talbot Faulkiner Hamlin in the US b. NY 1889 d. 1856
father Alfd Dwight Foster Hamlin, his father Cyrus 1811-1900, his parents were Hannibal & Susan Faulkiner Hamlin.
I guess her name was Faulkiner, born about 1785, but I can't find where.
You can look them up on Wikipedia, quite prominent.
Ken
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K.C.
At No.5 Lower Camden Street from the Irish Times:
On 3/2/1860 P.1 advert. Eugene Sweeny
On 13/5/1861 (Police Intelligence) Mr Sweeney (Undertaker) (Victim)
On 18/5/1861 (P.I.) Thomas M,Kenna (Employee) (Witness)
On 28/8/1866 (Thanks Section) Eugene Sweny
On 8/10/1867(Marriages) Lydia (Dau of Eugene Sweeny)
On 23/1/ 1884 P.8 advert. Mr. Sweeney's interest for sale
On 26/2/1886 P.2 advert Corrigan's Funeral Establishment (Clearly sold between '84 and 86
Regards Quaxer
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To Quaxar,
Thanks for that. The only one I knew about was the marriage of Eugene's daughter Lydia (named after her mother) to Alfred Richd. Mosley in 1867.
Do you know where I can get more details of the other items ? A quick googling session has yielded no result. Where did you find the reference you posted ?
Ken
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I found something about Eugene Sweny in 1861.
On 11 April there was an accident on Portobello bridge. A two horse omnibus
went through the railings into the canal lock. Five passengers were killed.
Afterwards people flocked to the site and to see the bus in Sweeney's yard. Sweeney's was a job carriage & funeral establishment (& coachbuilding shop).
But I found nothing on the police investigation in the Irish times a month later.
And the above does not explain how Sweeney was the victim. He was not on the bus.
It's from a book 'A Dublin Tragedy' by Kevin Harrington 1982 Old Dublin Society
You can access the details on jstor.org if you're a uni student or if you 'buy' the article. I'm not and I won't.
Ken
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KC
In response to your Nos15 & 16 all the references that I gave you were taken from the Irish Times newspaper which is on line for a fee or is available in many major libraries world wide. To enable this web site to run ,all of us are bound by the laws of copyright and I prefer to be cautious in this.........
Regarding the Portobello horse bus accident, this is fully reported in the Irish Times from April8th--11th 1861 and the reporting includes the inquest.
Regards Quaxer
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KC
Herewith the entries for No.1 Lincoln Place re Sweny (or variations on spelling)
22/11/1861 Mr Sweeney Apothecary
26/8/1863 Mr Sweney's premises destroyed by fire
5/10/66 (Police Intelligence) Dr. & Mrs. Mark Sweeny
26/11/1868 (Death) George Arthur Wellington Sweny
5/10/1869 (Death) Mark Sweny M.D.
29/10/1880 P.1 (Death) Albert (son of late Mark Sweny M.D.)
7/3/1883 P.1 (Marriage) Ada (dau. of late Mark Sweny M.D.)
8/2/1886 P.1 Births) Frederick William Sweny & 17/9/87 & 9/7/1889 & 9/2/1891 & 9/3/1892
contd Q.
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contd 2
20/7/1887 P.3 (Police C.) Summons against Frederick Sweeny for compounding medicine without a licence--withdrawn and see 30/11/1887 P.3
25/7/1891 P.1 (Death) Eveleen Ruby (dau. of F.W. & Sophia M.Sweny)
28/5/1894 P.1 (Death) Sarah Anne (widow of Mark Sweny)
30/4/1897 P.1(Marriage) Frederick William (son of late Mark Sweny)
16/2/1898 P.1 (Births) Frederick William Sweny & 29/5/1899 P.1 & 24/8/1900 P.1
7/10/1899 P.1 (Death) John Egar (son in law of late Dr. Mark Sweny)
5/3/1900 P.1 (Death) Lydia L. (dau. of late Mark Sweny M.D.) late of
Regards Quaxer
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To Quaxar,
Thanks once again for all the valuable info. Most of it is new to me, and as the details are not complete, I'll have to try to acess the Irish Times site. I'll open
a subscription to gain access. Can you give me the address of the site please ?
I knew about the police incident from 1866. An item about Dr. Mark appeared in the British Medical Journal of 13 October 1866:
"CONVICTION OF A DOCTOR FOR PROTECTING HIS WIFE.
Dr. Sweeny of Dublin was brought up in custody, charged with having assaulted a police constable. It appeared that Dr.Sweeny was walking home with his wife at one o'clock in the morning, and the policemen, acting under orders recently given to the metropolitan force with respect to
unfortunates, looked curiously at him and his wife, at which he was irritated. A policeman darted out of a laneway, and caught him by the shoulder and his wife by the breast, and asked him what business he had to be going with that young woman at that hour of the night; he then struck the policeman, and told him to begone, saying that the lady was his wife. Dr.Sweeny was ordered to pay a fine of £1 for the assault."
Sweny was not repentant; at the trial, he said: “If I’d had a sabre, I would have run him through !” Another version claims that the officer was subsequently charged with assaulting the doctor.
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To Quaxar again:
It was a great idea to start this forum, we've filled in a lot of the gaps.
Re the death of Lydia L Sweny in 1900, dau of Dr Mark. Did it actually give her name as Sweny ? I thought she had married in 1873 (Lydia Lovely Sweny).
Also, re the fire at the chemist's shop-
I have the cert. for the death on 28.4.1891 of a Mark Sweeny, 16 years old, a chemist’s son, who had died of burns from a fire, but we don’t know who he was. I wonder if there was anything in the Irish Times about this ?
Regards,
Ken
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KC
The fire took place in 1863 not 1891 and if there had been any casualties I surely would have recorded them. If I could find an address (just street only) I always recorded the names mentioned even if the spelling was dubious. Literally , many hours were spent with my magnifying loup to decipher the obscure. Further I made many entries which were of limited value as to what they refered but revealed the full names/qualifications over several references.
Look on the Irish Times site for their archive section.
Regards Quaxer
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To Quaxar,
Sorry, I didn't mean the same fire. It was obviously a later one. The only
reference I have is the Death Cert. (actually included free by my 'searcher' with the cert. I had ordered, "in case I was interested".
The doctor stated that the boy had died from burns when his clothes caught fire. It was an accident. Perhaps it was not important enough to report in the Irish Times.
As he died in Mercer's Hospital, there was no address given. But it would be a coincidence if there had been another chemist named Sweeny in Dublin.
Anyway, I can't place him yet.
Regards,
Ken
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K.C.
If the death occured in Mercers Hospital then you could look at their admissions register. I have seen somewhere that their records are still in existence. Maybe they are in the National Archives but failing that perhaps the librarian of the R.C.S.I. could help there. As you probably can deduce the source work I created was intended to be of use to historians in many fields covering people,property and events both particular and general.
Regards Quaxer
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Perhaps it was not important enough to report in the Irish Times.
In what sense do you mean important?
The Irish Times has always been respected as a source of independent reporting.
Sometimes it's hard to understand that in the 'tabloid culture' which we have become accustomed to.
Dara.
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Dara,
I don't mean to criticize the Irish Times. Their archives are a very valuable source for historians and genealogists.
Perhaps it did not come to their attention. Perhaps it is there somewhere.
What I am trying to find out is-
Was the first chemist Dr Mark , an apothecary ? Apparently that subject was
obligatory for trainee doctors, and he may have fallen back on that in his later years. Some of his descendants believe this.
I think that his eldest son Mark Halpin Sweny practised as a chemist in Lincoln Place before his brother Fredk Wm. took over.
In any case Fredk was the one in mind as the chemist who sold the cake of lemon scented soap to Mr Bloom in Joyce's "Ulysses" (set in 1904).
So there may have been three Sweny chemists altogether. What happened to Mark ? Well, I found two children to his second wife, bapt. in a Catholic church.
This may have some bearing.
Ken
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One detail to add to this .... whatever about the reporting of an incident in an article in the Irish Times, there were many other Dublin newspapers that may mention the event. Entries in the Births Marriage & Deaths sections were requested and paid for by the families concerned. Some families would not use these notices, and most that did would stick to a specific paper. e.g. one family of my ancestors included many notices in the Times, another only used the Independent. Others have no notices that I can find.
Shane
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Ken
Can you confirm if Henry Cope Sweeney is the son of John Sweeney, brother to Eugene (1752) who was b abt 1753
If so he married a Katherine Alice Cope daughter of Henry Cope of Castlegal Co Sligo about 1774
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To Bray,
Henry Cope Sweeny b. abt 1794 was the son of John Sweeny, who married 1779 Cath. Alice Cope, (dau of Henry Cope, barrister)
John Sweeny was the son & heir of Alderman Michael Sweeny 1713-1765.
Michael's brother was John Sweeny, whose son was Eugene ca 1750-1790.
Eugene the coachmaker 1785-1872 was his son.
So, Cath Alice Cope was Henry Cope Sweeny's mother, and John Sweeny, her husband, was a cousin of Eugene snr.
Ken
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kc
Re your No.26.At one time the licence from the Apothecary's Hall entitled the holder to practice medicine(subject to taking a further exam.?) similar to holders of licences from the other Medical Schools. I believe that this dated from the Medical Registration Act 1858 which was passed to prevent unqualified persons from practicing medicine.
Regards Quaxer
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Thanks for that Quaxar,
What I had heard was that Dr Mark Sweny first practised as an apothecary, then opened a medical practice. Also, that in his later years, he used the premises as a chemist's shop.
Ken
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Getting back to my first post- I'm trying to trace present day descendants of John Paget Sweny 1811-1883, father of 14 children.
John’s first child, Eugene, born 1836, went into ‘holy orders’. He graduated from Trinity College, Dublin as Bachelor of Arts in 1859 and was ordained deacon in 1862. He went to Donegal to take up his post at Inniskeel, firstly as curate from 1862 to 1869, then as rector until 1883. He took his Master of Arts in 1876.
He married in Donegal in 1866 Elizabeth Barbara, daughter of Revd. James Ovens of Donegal. They had six children:
Emily Teresa Grace 1868, James Montgomery Ovens 1869, Georgiana Charlotte Frederica 1871, William Halpin Paterson 1872, John Charles Coote 1872, Shapland Arthur 1877.
In 1883 they moved to Norfolk, England, where Eugene took up the position of Rector of Morston and Stiffkey (pron. ‘stewkey’) . His son Arthur died there in 1889, and his wife Elizabeth in 1902. Eugene held the position until his death in 1906. (n.b. he was not the infamous rector- that was his successor)
Rev. Eugene’s first son James died in UK in 1916. John, the third son, went first to Canada, then to the U.S. He mar Alice Reeves 1901 and they had 3 ch: Sydney Charles d.1966 Ohio, Kathleen Vera d.1981 Mass. & Ethel 05-07
Emily married Granville Edwards, and moved to New York, son Eric G.; Georgiana married Dean Shute of New Zealand, where they lived, but they later divorced, dau Rona Irene 1899.
The second son, William became a ship’s officer with the P.& O. Line. When he married Adele Pearson in 1895, his address was the S.S. Khedive, Royal Albert Dock, in East London. They had one son, Noel, born in 1901 who may have been a police sergeant of Belfast in 1929.
Ken
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John Paget Sweny's third son, ABRAHAM was bapt. 9.9.1847. He was shown as 21 in the US census of 1870 in Yonkers, New York. Most of the family came back to Ireland a few years later, but there is no further trace of Abraham there. Now I've just found an entry in 1880, in Yonkers, for Abram Sweeney, 29 years old, born Ireland, (both parents Irish) and wife Mary. He was a bookkeeper. No trace of a marriage though, but it sounds like our Abraham. Ken
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http://www.petitiononline.com/swenys/petition.html
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Thanks Brn,
It's too late for petitions I'm afraid.
The premises, now dilapidated, have been threatened with demolition to make way for a cinema. It seemed that a recent protest movement, in which over 100 people, Swenys and others, including myself, signed the petition ‘on-line’, had given the shop a reprieve.
My suggestion was to keep the shop as it was, and turn it into a sub-branch
of the Tourist Bureau, (still selling lemon-scented soap of course). Unfortunately, the Irish Times reported, on 19.6.2009 that Pauline Quinn had closed the shop. It seems that the building will be preserved, but the chemist shop will never open again.
By the way, I couldn't get anywhere with your link.
Cheers,
Ken
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I've just had an email about papers held by the National Archives Dublin,
relating to the Sweny/Swiny families, to which I'll reply online.
Michael Sweeny, brother of Eugene snr. (1750-1799) married Mary Swiny, from the Wexford Shapland Swiny family, who seem to be distant relatives.Their son was Shapland Swiny. (Michael had changed his name to Swiny.)
His grandson William Swiny, of England, came to Dublin in 1866, for the settlement of his father’s will. He was not known to the solicitors, and was identified by Eugene Sweny, coachmaker, a cousin of Shapland Swiny.
The papers relate to property, mar & birth certs etc. to prove that William was entitled to inherit his father's estate. I guess he shared it with his half brother
Shapland Hugh Swinny.
John Paget Sweny's son Rev. Eugene, had a son called Shapland Arthur Sweny, although he was not directly related to the Shaplands or Swinys.
He died in 1889, 12 years old.
Ken
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Just got two more Mar Certs for the Swenys, daughters of John Paget Sweny, Undertaker.
Emily mar. as Amelia Sweny to Edward Harding, Poplin Mfr of 15 Lwr Mt Pleasant Av. She was a minor, both signed. Witnesses were Arthur P Cooke & Eliz Downes. At St Peter's Dublin on 1.1.1873
Her father John P. was probably still in New York. Arthur was the brother of Wm & Thomas Cooke who married the two eldest Sweny daughters.
Georgina mar Wm Henry Talbot, Gent, son of John Noble Talbot, Gent. Witnesses J P Sweny, Undertaker & Thos D Wilson At St Kevin's, Par. of St Peter, on 23.8.1865.
Ken
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To Ambyrne, (Ann Marie) re your Post No 4:
Electoral Roll 1939, Dublin at 4 Royse Rd. Ralph & Edith Sweny-
He was Ralph Schomberg Sweny, grandson of John Paget Sweny, Undertaker, and Edith was his wife, nee Frayne, married 2nd Qtr 1925.
They had a son, Ralph G. 1929-1932.
Regards,
Ken
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To Bray, Re Post No 37,
There's a John Noble Talbot listed in Pigot & Co's Dublin Directory as a Commissioner of Inland Revenue & Taxes, but I couldn't find the date. The print style looked like early or mid-1800s.
On another page "Patron the King" so it must have been before 1837.
Perhaps he was WH Talbot's father or grandfather.
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The Names Paget & Halpen
John Paget Sweny was named after his uncle, who was born in 1780 and fought at Waterloo as a captain, later becoming Major.
The second brother was Mark Halpen Sweny b. 1783. He was a R.N. veteran of Trafalgar and became a Captain.
The third brother was Eugene jnr. who was the father of our J.P.Sweny.
Their parents were Eugene Sweny snr. and Elizabeth Halpen. I believe that Paget came from her brother's name- Paget Halpen.
The names Paget and Halpen/Halpin occur in five or six generations of Swenys, as well as in related branches. My grandfather Cooke had a brother Alfred Paget and a half-brother Arthur Paget, although Arthur was not descended from the Swenys.
Ken
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Who were the Swenys ? I believe the Dublin Swenys were related to the land-owning Swiney family of Wexford, who were descended from an Owen Swyny, 'agricola' (farmer/landowner), of Kinsdale (Kinsale), Cork, born about 1610. He claimed to be descended from the Mac Swyny of Fanad, Donegal.
We are told that the Mac Sweeny clan were of mixed Celtic and Viking ancestry from Argyll, Scotland, who came to Ireland as Gallowglass mercenary soldiers (some say via the Hebrides).
It is not known when they arrived in Ireland, but it was probably in the 14th century. They advanced themselves by fighting as mercenaries, for the O’Donnels, the senior clan of Tir Conail (Donegal). At first they helped fight the O’Neills, the main rivals of the O’Donnels, and later helped the clan chiefs regain the lands that they had lost to the Anglo-Normans. Cattle and land gradually became the preferred method of payment.
The Mac Sweenys settled on the Fanad peninsula and acquired large estates. They gradually spread out and split into three sub-groups or ‘septs’, one of which, known as Mac Sweeny Doe, were especially distinguished for their military skills.
The annals of the clan say that a branch of this sept moved south and settled in County Cork, Munster in the 1400s. They became high constables to their new patron, the McCarthy Mor, whose seat was Blarney Castle.
The Mac Sweenys acquired various lands in the south, including Muskerry and Mashanaglass
(near Macroom). The McCarthys allowed them the use of Mashanaglass Castle.
“By the aid of the Mac Sweenys, ‘the Clan of Galloglasses’, who were invited down from the North, the Mac Carthy Chiefs (of Cork) succeeded in annexing West Muskerry to their possessions.
The date of the advent of the Mac Sweenys may be approximately determined by means of a pedigree compiled by Carew and preserved at Lambeth (Cod. 636). In it he states that the first of the Muskerry branch of the Mac Sweenys, Edmond, ‘was drawn from Ulster by Cormac Mac Carthy’ ―the same who built Kilcrea in 1467 and died in 1494.
(later) The Earl of Desmond and MacCarthy Reagh were also largely indebted to the Mac Sweeny Clan for the predominant position they obtained. Those galloglasses had the advantage of being professional soldiers, who did not, like the kernes, return in time of peace to agricultural work, but were maintained by the Chiefs who had need of their services. Burleigh wrote (1577) that ‘one sept of the Mac Swynes directs Owen MacCarthy Reagh as they list’ (as they wish) ”. From “A History of the O’Mahony Septs” by Rev. Canon John O’Mahony
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The gallowglass were sometimes used in punitive raids of retaliation by the clan chiefs.
"Munster was at this period (1568) in a very disturbed state. Thomas Roe, of Desmond, the brother of the earl, and his cousin, James Fitzmaurice, made a raid into Kerry, which caused the Earl of Clancare to retaliate, by entering Cork and spoiling Lord Roche, who writes, September 14th, from Castletown, 'The Earl of Clancarty, accompanied by M'Donoky, O'Kyve, M'Auly, O'Donocowe More, O'Sullivan More's son, Edmond M'Swyny, and others, with six or seven banners displayed, has taken l,500 kine (cows), burned 7,000 sheep, all his corn, and a great number of men, women, and children.' He therefore desires 'a commission to hurt the said earl'". from ‘History of City & County of Cork’ by C.B.Gibson. (The Earl of Clancare or Clancarty preferred to be called ‘The MacCarthy More’.)
One observer, Richard Stanihurst, says in about 1577:
"The galloglasses were grim of countenance, tall of stature, big of limb, burly of body, well and strongly timbered; feeding on beef, pork, and butter."
The Governor of Ireland, Sir Henry Sidney, on a visit to Cork in 1575, describes the locals who came to pay their respects―
"Lastly, there came to me five brethren, and the sons of two other brethren of one lineage, all captains of galloglasses, called Mac Swynes, who, though I place them last, are of as much consequence as any of the rest; for of such credit and force were they grown into (although they were no lords of lands themselves), as they would make the greatest lords of the province both in fear of them, and glad of their friendship." Letter from Sidney to Privy Council 1575.
It is interesting to note that, 26 years before Kinsale, Mac Swyne gallowglass were paying their respects to the governor. But they had come south 100 years earlier and had probably broken the ties with their distant kinsmen from Donegal who were to fight the English on the side of the Irish earls at Kinsale.
In the late 1500s the struggle for power and territory between the English crown and the Irish earls was reaching its climax. The earls had much success, until the battle of Kinsale, Cork, in 1601. They marched south to face the English. They were supported by the northern gallowglass clans, including the Mac Sweeneys of Donegal, in their efforts to expel the English and reclaim their lands.
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"The MacSweeneys of Tírconnaill (Donegal) commanded by Maolmhuire/ Sir Miles MacSwyne, Chief of Doe, set out for Kinsale with Red Hugh O’ Donnell in the 1st week of November 1601 in appalling weather conditions. The progress of Red Hugh's army to Munster, during what is known as ‘the little ice age’ ranks as one of the most astonishing marches in history. The MacSweeneys of Tírconnaill fought as rearguard during the retreat from Kinsale and, true to their galloglass oath to be victorious or die where they stood, most never returned." From ‘sweeneydoeclan.com’ website- Event of 2001- Remembering the March to Kinsale.
At Kinsale, the English, under Mountjoy, defeated and dispersed the Irish, killing many and forcing the leaders or ‘earls’ to flee into exile in France and Spain. Not surprisingly, their lands were confiscated, and under James l, in what is known as the ‘Plantation of Ulster’, they were reallocated to Protestant settlers.
The gallowglass must have realized that, with the defeat at Kinsale and the flight of the earls, the old Gaelic way of life was finished, and in the future they would have to seek other patrons.
It was natural for the ambitious among the Queen’s Irish subjects, including some of the Swineys of Cork, to shift their allegiance to the greatest power in the region- the crown of England. After Kinsale the gallowglass began to find employment with the English, and this would have been an incentive for them to convert to the English church.
In the late 1600s, as the last of the Irish aristocracy were being dispossessed of their lands, some of the land-owning Sweenys may have converted in order to retain their wealth.
The subsequent affluence of the Wexford Swineys suggests that they had thrown in their lot with the English. In any case, the power of the MacCarthy More of Blarney Castle was broken. Queen Elizabeth coined a new word when she made the remark about Cormac Teige MacCarthy: “Blarney, Blarney, what he says he never means. I’ve had enough of his Blarney.”
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To sum up:
Owen Swyny may have been from Cork, but Kinsale sounds too much like a coincidence.
In any case, I believe that the Swynys and Swenys are descended from the group of Sweeny gallowglass warriors who came down to Cork from Donegal in the latter 15th century. Those who came to fight at Kinsale would not have wanted to tarry in the south.
A Mac Swiney family had possession of Mashanaglass Castle until recently.
They had obviously remained true to the old faith.
One member of this family became a Papal count, but was not the sept leader. The last sept leader, the ‘Mac Sweeny Doe’ lived in Donegal.
In a recent ceremony, which was described as ‘a historic return after 400 years, of a McCarthy stronghold, held for them by their gallowglass warriors, the MacSwineys’, Mashanaglass Castle was handed over to Terence Mac Carthy, who claimed to be the MacCarthy Mor, hereditary chief of the clan.Then in 1999, Terence was exposed as a fraud, when the so-called ‘MacCarthy Mor scandal’ broke. But he had already sold the castle to an American general who gave himself the title ‘Peacock of Mashanaglass’. (Not the bird- Peacock was actually his name !)
(Continued-See Post 60)
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To Bray,
Re family of Edw Harding and Emily/Amelia Sweny.
You said that they had lived in England, Cornwall and I think Scotland.
Could you give us more details of their movements, as we know nothing more about them.
Regards,
Ken
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To Bray,
You may have found this already:
Amelia Sarah Anne Sweny, born 25.10.1852 at 7 City Quay, bapt. 25.10.1852 at St. Mark Dublin, parents John & Matilda Sweny.
Sarah Anne was the name of her aunt, wife of Dr. Mark Sweny.
From Irish Genealogy (updated issue of BDM records)
Ken
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Dr. Mark Sweny's wife was Sarah Anne. She died in 1894, aged 76, so born abt. 1818.
I believe that the two brothers, John Paget and Mark, married two sisters named Yeates.
John married Matilda Yeates, 1815-1900 abt. 1835 and it seems that Mark mar. Sarah Ann Yeates, born 1818, abt. 1845. They were daughters of Kendrick Yeates and Margaret Faulkner.
Dr. Mark's son, Herbert Sidney, 1859-1933, named his fifth son Ernest Yeates Sweny, born 6.11.1893, and bapt. 1.2.94, at 44 Bessborough Ave. to Herbert Sidney Sweny and Sarah Jane Wilson.
Ken
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More evidence:
Dr. Mark Sweny's first child was Augusta Elvira Lucinda, b. 1846.
The youngest child of Kendrick Yeates and Margt Faulkner was Augusta.
The names Augusta and Yeates in Dr. Mark Sweny's family strongly indicate that his wife was Sarah Ann Yeates, b. 1818.
Ken
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More:
Augusta Sweny, (?) namesake of her maternal aunt, Aug. Yeates, married Wm. Fredk. Wilkinson 1874. Their son James was born in 1876:
James Scarlett Yeates Wilkinson, b. 3.6.1876, bap. 21.7.76 St. Mark, parents Wm.Fredk. W. & Augusta Elvira Lucinda W. of 1 Lincoln Pl.
So two descendants of Dr. Mark & Sarah Ann got the middle name 'Yeates'.
Ken
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I’ve been trying to sort out some of the Swenys, who can cause confusion because of the occurrence of the same names over several generations.
Family of Dr. Mark Sweny and Sarah Ann (?Yeates), married abt 1845:
Augusta Elvira Lucinda 1846, mar. Wm Fredk Wilkinson
Mark Halpin 1848-1900
Lydia Lovely 1850-1900, mar. John Jos. Egar
Ada Matilda 1852, (fl.1916) mar. Henry Cockburn
Lincoln Albert 1854-1880
Victoria Eugenia 1855 (fl.1890)
Frederick William 8.12.1856-1924
Herbert Sidney 1859-1933
Eugene 1860-1861
George Arthur Wellington 1863-1868
Frederick William, 1856, was the famous chemist, of 1 Lincoln Place. He married twice and had at least fourteen children.
1. mar. 1884 Sophia Mary Johnson 1857-1895:
Ethel Sophia 22.1.1885-1893
Violet Beatrice 6.2.1886-1909
Edith 16.9.1887, (fl.1916) mar. 1912 ? Ring
Fredk William jnr 1888 (fl.1916)
Albert Edward 1889 (to USA 1911)
Walter Theodore 7.3.1892-1893
Eveleen Ruby, born & died 1891
Lilian Caroline 30.6.1893, mar.1918
2. mar. 26.4.1897 Sarah Jane Owens:
George Arthur 13.2.1898, mar. (fl.1916)
Charles Herbert 25.5.1899-1965
Alfred Victor 23.8.1900 (fl.1916)
William Lionel 1902 (fl.1911)
Victoria Eugenia ?
Arthur Wellington 1909 ?
Cecil Desmond 1910 (fl.1916) mar.1932
Reginald Fredk 1915-1993
There may have been more. Some of the above have not been heard of again, so we can assume that they died young.
Ken
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More:
Herbert Sidney, 1859-1933, the fourth son of Dr Mark Sweny, married Sarah Jane Wilson on 14.6.1886. (careful- don't mix up all the Sarahs & Janes !)
They had seven sons-
Herbert Sidney, b. 1.3.1887 bap. 25.5.87 at St Mark, of 6 Hamilton Row
Fredk Wm, 27.4.1888, bap 12.8.88 St Thomas, of 10 Lower Gloucester St
Arthur George, 7.6.1889, bap 7.8.89 St. Thomas " " " "
Walter Victor, 29.8.1891 bap 5.11.91 Nth Strand Par.Ch. of 44 Bessborough Av.
Ernest Yeates, 6.11.1893 bap. 1.2.84 " " " " "
John Charles, 4.9.1896, bap. 11.10.96 " " " " " "
Robert Cecil, 18.12.1897, bap 27.1.98 " " " " " "
The first four all emigrated to the USA, where their descendants live today.
Their father, Herb Sid. visited them in the 1930s.
Ernest died 1 year old, as did Robert. We don't know anything about John Charles.
Ken
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Re Herbert & Sarah Jane,
The last three children must have died, and one more, whose birth we have not yet found.
In the Dublin Census of 1911, married women were asked how long they had been married, and how many children survived.
At 44 Bessborough St:
Herbert, 52 yrs, Advertising Agent
Arthur, 20, Tinsmith
Walter 19, Plumber
Sarah Jane, 51, born Co Antrim, married for 24 yrs, 8 children, 4 living.
(Walter left for the US a few weeks later, and Arthur in 1920.)
Ken
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St. Martin’s Dublin 25.6.1890, Lydia T. Cooke, (dau. of William B. Cooke and Thomasina Sweny) married James Gibb Macnab of Glasgow, railway clerk.
Witnesses- Ralph Sweny & Victoria E. Sweny.
Ralph was Lydia's uncle, and Victoria was Ralph's cousin.
Then, the birth of their son James Cooke Macnab 29.8.1891 St. Rollox,
Glasgow, Scotland.
Then, London Gazette 7.12.1915, The Highland Light Infantry-
To be 2nd. Lieutenant- James Cooke Macnab
Then, Auction of Military Medals 20.4.2006, Spink & Son Ltd, London-
A Great War 'Western Front' M.C. Group of Four.
Military Cross, G.V.R., reverse neatly engraved 'Second Lieutenant James Cooke Macnab, M.C. 9th (Glasgow Highlanders) Battalion, Highland Light Infantry For Conspicuous Gallantry 27th July 1916', in Royal Mint case of issue; 1914 Star; British War and Victory Medals, extremely fine (4) Estimate £800-900
London Gazette 27.7.1916 2nd Lt. James Cooke MacNab, 1/9th Bn., High. L.I., T.F., Mil.Cross 'For conspicuous gallantry during a raid. He took many prisoners, as ordered, at greater risk than if he had killed his opponents. He repeatedly showed great daring on patrol.'
Lieutenant James Cooke MacNab, M.C.; commissioned Lieutenant 9th Battalion Highland Light Infantry, 1.7.1917
He was a Macnab, with the middle name Cooke, but the military spirit seems to come from the Swenys.
Ken
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Re Posts 34-35, Petition online to save Sweny's chemist shop:
It now seems that the shop has been acquired by Brendan Kilty, a Dublin barrister and Joyce enthusiast, and is now a 'museum' which sells books and boiled sweets, and of course lemon soap.
'Bloomsday' was celebrated in June this year, as usual, and at the shop you can listen to readings from Joyce's Ulysses.
Ken
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Re Post 54-
This is the answer to my email to Sweny's shop:
Hi Ken,
My name is Wendy C. and I act as co-ordinator for Swenys, thank you so much for your lovely e-mail. Swenys is run entirely by volunteers now who are all unemployed and just want to preserve it. It has no connection at all to any Joyce group or Joycean, including Mr. Kilty.
One of our volunteers is Norma F. nee Sweny (granddaughter of the chemist) from Wicklow and she is kindly watching over us and keeping us on our toes with regard to what is fact and what is pure fiction about the history of Swenys and now we have you which is great.
Please do keep in touch and I will pass on this info to all the other volunteers so that we are all singing from the same hymn sheet.
Kind regards from Swenys in the rain and please do check out the website.
Wendy
Websites:
http://sweny.ie/
http://sweny.wordpress.com/
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Re Posts 47 to 49:
I have now found the third grandchild of Dr. Mark Sweny and Sarah Ann, with the middle name Yeates.
George Yeates Cockburn, born 28.3.1887, bapt. 25.5.1887, Rathmines Par. Church to Henry Howard Cockburn, and Ada, dau. of Dr. Mark Sweny and Sarah Ann (? Yeates).
There will be a Sweny family ‘reunion’ in Dublin roughly from the last week-end in October to the 5th. November, hopefully meeting at Sweny’s Pharmacy (as it is now called) one evening.
I will be in Dublin from 12 Oct. to 4 Nov. and it will give me a chance to look up some BDM records etc. I hope to find the marriage of Mark Sweny and Sarah Ann Yeates about 1845.
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Back again from Dublin. The Sweny family reunion at the chemist's shop on
1st. Nov. was a great success. The Lord Mayor of Dublin, Gerry Breen, looked in and had a cup of tea and a piece of cake. We took many pictures of him in his gold chain.
Unfortunately I could find no trace of the marriage of Dr. Mark Sweny and Sarah Ann.
Ken
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Re Posts 21 to 24, Death from Burns:
The accident happened in a tenement house, not at the chemist shop.
The elder brother of Frederick Sweny, the chemist, was Mark Sweny junior. His occupation was also ‘chemist’ when he married Kate Davis in 1878. The baptisms of two of Mark’s sons were recorded in 1888 and 1895 in a Catholic church. But it seems two other children were born before the marriage.
There was a death registered in 1891 of a Mark Sweeny, 16 years old, a chemist’s son, who had died of burns from a fire. Freeman’s Journal of 30.4.91:
"Dr. Whyte, the coroner, held an inquest on the body of Mark Sweeny, aged 16 years, Longford St., who, while sitting at the fire in his mother’s residence accidentally fell into the fire and received very severe burns from which he died in Mercer’s Hospital yesterday. A verdict of death from accidental burning was returned."
The houses in Longford St. were mainly tenements, and individual residents are not recorded in the Dublin Directory.
The victim was apparently the son of Mark Halpin Sweny, who was then a chemist at 37 George’s Quay, Dublin. Whether Kate Davis was the mother or not, I can not say, as yet. UPDATE- SEE POST 73
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Re: Post 58 above- Death from Burns
Apart from the newspaper article above, I also have a copy of the Death Registration.
Date of Death- 28 April 1891, at Mercer's Hospital, MARK SWEENY, Male, 16 years, Chemist's Son, Cause of Death- Burning by Clothes taking fire, Accidental, Certified, Inquest.
Information received from A. C. Whyte, Esq. Coroner for City of Dublin.
Regd. 1 May 1891, C. Shortt, Asst. Registrar
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What happened to the last MacSweeny Chief of Doe ?
Maolmhuire (Mulmurry) was Chief of Doe (Tuatha) from 1596 to 1630. How did he become Sir Myles ? It seems it was an attempt to bribe him, but he kept his options open.
"State documents record that in 1598 Maolmhuire went over to the English and in July 1599 he was knighted by the ill-fated Earl of Essex. In May 1600, Maolmhuire (now Sir Myles Mac Sweeney Doe) arrived in Lough Foyle with an English invasion fleet commanded by Sir Henry Dowcra. Two months later, Red Hugh O Donnell and Maolmhuire swooped and captured 160 English cavalry horses from Dowcra. Maolmhuire was arrested and placed aboard an English ship to be taken to Dublin for trial, but he escaped by jumping overboard 'in tempestuous weather' and swimming to freedom on the east side of the Foyle.
State papers confirm that Maolmhuire was the only Mac Sweeney Chief from Tyrconnell to accompany Red Hugh O Donnell to the battle of Kinsale in 1601.
In April 1603, Maolmhuire, Chief of Doe, surrendered to the English and
received a pardon in October 1603. Two thousand acres of land at Dunfanaghy were returned to him for his lifetime only at the Plantation of Ulster c. 1610. It was not until 1630 that Maolmhuire's land at Dunfanaghy was granted to him 'and his heirs and assigns for ever'. He died soon afterwards and his land was confiscated. Maolmhuire was the last Mac Sweeney Chief to occupy Doe Castle." From ‘sweeneydoeclan.com’
Another version:
"After the Elizabethan conquest of Ireland at the beginning of the seventeenth century and the subsequent flight of the northern lords, ONeill, Maguire and Rory ODonnell, Earl of Tirconnell, to the European continent, all of Tir Connell (Donegal) lay forfeit to the crown of England. In the subsequent plantations of Ulster, where most of the forfeited land in that province was granted to English and Scottish settlers, the heads of the three branches of Mac Sweeney each received 2,000 acres, a fraction of the territories they once possessed. By the mid-seventeenth century, however, they seemed to have lost possession of even these lands. One of them, Maolmhuire, the last inaugurated lord of the Tuatha (Doe), is reputed to have died in poverty sometime after 1630."
From Sweeney of Co. Mayo Genealogy (eircom.net)
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Since we began this thread, we have discovered what happened to most of J. P. Sweny's 14 children, (see Post 1).
Paget Halpin died young, and most likely Mark Halpin as well .
Most of the others have been accounted for, except Abraham (Post 33) and Jemima. Now I have found that she also stayed in the USA as well as Abraham and William.
She married Ebenezer John Beggs in New York on 26.5.1872. He was also born in Dublin, and they may have met on the ship to New York.
They had six children: Edward J. 1877, Arthur E. 1878, Jeanette 1881, Ralph T. 1885, John C. 1888, and Marguerite A. 1891. They were listed in New York in the 1900 Census. Beggs was a chemist.
All we know about Abraham is that he was listed in the 1880 Census, in Yonkers, N.Y. as Abram Sweeney, 29 years old, born Ireland, (both parents Irish) and wife Mary. He was a bookkeeper.
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In the US Census of 1870, in Yonkers, New York, we find John Sweny, undertaker, his wife Matilda, and some of their family, Lydia, Abraham, William, Emily, Jemima, Ralph, and John. William was a lawyer’s clerk, John was ‘at the school’ and the other children worked in shops. All were born in Ireland.
When William applied for a U.S. passport in 1891, he stated that he had arrived on the Helvetia from Liverpool on 15.3.1865, age 15. There were two arrivals of the Helvetia in 1865, but not on 15 March. There seem to be no passenger lists for either one.
I believe that William, 26 years later, got the dates wrong. The maiden voyage of the Helvetia to New York left Liverpool on 28 March 1865. I believe that John and his family came on the second voyage, which left Liverpool on
12 October 1865, picked up the Irish passengers at Queenstown (Cobh) near Cork, and arrived in New York on 30th. October. John Paget was a witness at the marriage of his daughter Georgina and William Henry Talbot in Dublin on 23.8.1865, so he could not have been in New York then, and William was too young to travel alone. John, Matilda, Ralph, Lydia, Emily and John jnr. all came back to Dublin. Abraham, William and Jemima stayed in the USA.
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I’ve been trying to sort out some of the Swenys, who can cause confusion because of the occurrence of the same names over several generations.
Family of Dr. Mark Sweny and Sarah Ann (?Yeates), married abt 1845:
Augusta Elvira Lucinda 1846, mar. Wm Fredk Wilkinson
Mark Halpin 1848-1900
Lydia Lovely 1850-1900, mar. John Jos. Egar
Ada Matilda 1852, (fl.1916) mar. Henry Cockburn
Lincoln Albert 1854-1880
Victoria Eugenia 1855 (fl.1890)
Frederick William 8.12.1856-1924
Herbert Sidney 1859-1933
Eugene 1860-1861
George Arthur Wellington 1863-1868
Frederick William, 1856, was the famous chemist, of 1 Lincoln Place. He married twice and had at least fourteen children.
1. mar. 1884 Sophia Mary Johnson 1857-1895:
Ethel Sophia 22.1.1885-1893
Violet Beatrice 6.2.1886-1909
Edith 16.9.1887, (fl.1916) mar. ? Ring
Fredk William jnr 1888 (fl.1916)
Albert Edward 1889 (to USA 1911)
Walter Theodore 7.3.1892-1893
Eveleen Ruby, born & died 1891
Lilian Caroline 30.6.1893, mar.1918
2. mar. 26.4.1897 Sarah Jane Owens:
George Arthur 13.2.1898, mar. (fl.1916)
Charles Herbert 25.5.1899-1965
Alfred Victor 23.8.1900 (fl.1916)
William Lionel 1902 (fl.1911)
Victoria Eugenia ?
Arthur Wellington 1909 ?
Cecil Desmond 1910 (fl.1916) mar.1932
Reginald Fredk 1915-1993
There may have been more. Some of the above have not been heard of again, so we can assume that they died young.
Ken
Hi Ken,
My name is Noel Sweeney. My father's name is Frederick William Sweeney. His father's name was Cecil Desmond. From conversations with my father, it appears his father is the Cecil Desmond mentioned in one of your previous postings (as per quote). I plan to confirm this update by obtaining the appropriate documentation.
Noel
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Hi Noel,
Welcome to the Forum.
The only thing I know about your grandfather Cecil Desmond is that his birth was reg. Jan-Mar Qtr. 1911 Sth Dublin, and then Cecil Sweny married Apr-Jun 1932, Sth Dub, name of spouse unknown.
Looks like your father was named after his grandfather, the chemist. You have close relatives still living in Dublin.
By the way, you're not the first Noel in the family. Your father's 3rd cousin was Noel Frederic Sweny, born in 1901, who was a County Inspector in the Royal Ulster Constabulary.
I will contact you 'off-line' if you don't mind. From what you write, I have no doubt that we are from the same Sweny/Sweeney line.
Ken
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I have just spoken to a granddaughter of Fredk Wm Sweny, the chemist, about Cecil Desmond Sweny.
She remembers her uncle Cecil, but not his family. They lived in Cabra.
He was jovial, short, stout, and balding. He smoked a pipe and drove a tourist coach to Glendaloch. He died about 20 years ago.
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I have just noticed, on another forum, that I wrote, in 2008, about the Sweny and Swiny families, that they were related, and that our earliest verified Swe(e)ny ancestor, Owen Sweeny of Mill St, Newmarket, Dublin, was the son of Revd. Miles Swyny or Swiney of Wexford.
As we now know that this is not true, my reaction was to send in a reply to correct this mistake, but there was a notice that the topic was now closed, and a warning from the moderator, not to try to ‘resurrect’ the thread.
The source of the error was a pedigree held by the old Office of Arms, Dublin.
Later I obtained the pedigree of the Dublin Swenys held by the Society of Genealogists, London, which has the sub-text:
“Incorrectly claiming descent from Revd. Miles Swiny of Ballyteigue, Co. Wexford (d.1690). The only relationship with that family being by the marriage in 1774 of Michael Sweny of Dublin with Mary, eldest daughter of the Revd. Shapland Swiny of Ballyteigue & Rector of Ferns, Co. Wexford.” (Shapland was a great grandson of Revd. Miles)
It seems that someone had confused ‘our’ Owen Sweeny 1680-1741 with Owen Swiney, second son of Revd. Miles, who lived from 1676 to 1754, and was a theatre and opera impressario. There is an entry for him in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. After some correspondence with the ODNB, I ascertained that Owen Sweeny and Owen Swiney were two distinct persons. At the time ‘our’ Owen Sweeny’s children were born in Dublin, the impressario was living in Italy. He died unmarried and without issue, leaving estates in Wexford.
But I still believe that there was an earlier connection between the two families.
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Ken,
In relation to Edith Sweny, she married Geoff Ring - not sure of the date of marriage exactly but they had three sons - Mervyn (born ~1913 died 1934), Maurice (born ~1916 or so, died 1976), Anthony (Tony) (born 1925, died 2012).
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Hi Desmond
Thanks for that. I was sorry to hear about your father passing away. I never got to speak to him. He was already in the facility when I phoned his home in Oct. 2010.
I found Edith's marriage record, Oct-Dec 1912 on ancestry.com. Spouse's name not given, but a list of others on the same page. One was a J.F.King, which I thought was a misprint of 'Ring'.
Edith of course was the eldest child of Frederick William, the famous chemist of Lincoln Place.
Thanks again, and best wishes.
Ken
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Ken
good to hear from you. I would assume J.F King was Geoff Ring. It was funny but when I was back last month I went to the chemist for the first time - like walking back in time significantly. I am hoping to go in there with my children when we are home next month.
Take care
Des
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No, he was John F King.
I found in the 1911 census a John Francis Ring, Single, born Cork (or Kerry) but no Geoffrey or Jeffrey. The entry for Edith shows seven names, but I can't get the eighth. It could be him.
Maybe he was John F. Ring but they called him Geoff.
Anyway I'm sure they married in the last quarter of 1912.
There are still a lot of unanswered questions. One of the most important for me is the surname of Edith's grandmother, Sarah Ann, born 1818. I'm sure it is Yeates, which would link the two shops from 'Ulysses'- Sweny's chemist shop & Yeates & Son, opticians etc.
Sarah Ann Yeates was born 1818. Her uncle Samuel and her cousin George Mitchell Yeates were Yeates & Son. I believe she was the mother of Fredk Wm Sweny, the chemist.
I think I'll have to go back to Dublin again and find her marriage.
Cheers for now,
Ken
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Just to confirm that Edith Sweny married John Francis Ring in 1912. He was known as 'Geoff'. This came from their son Tony, who passed away recently.
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In Reply 19 of 4 March 2010, Quaxar supplied headings of entries in the Irish Times, relevant to the Sweny family of Dublin. The last two read:
7/10/1899 P.1 (Death) John Egar (son in law of late Dr. Mark Sweny)
5/3/1900 P.1 (Death) Lydia L. (dau. of late Mark Sweny M.D.) late of .....
I have not been able to access the entries concerned, but I would guess that the next word is “Canada”. There is no trace of any death entries in Dublin.
From the Dublin Census 1901- Rathmines & Rathgar:
Wm Fredk & Elvira Wilkinson (sister of Lydia Lovely Egar, née Sweny),
their sons James & Fredk. and Winifred & Stanley Egar, 12 & 10 yrs, Niece & Nephew, both born Canada.
At 6 St James Tce, Merchants Quay-
Charles Egar & family, also Robt Henry & John Charles Egar, 22 & 19, nephews,
born Dublin City.
I have not been able to confirm Charles as a brother of John Joseph Egar, Lydia’s husband, but the birth years of the two boys fit in with J J Egar’s family. There was an Oscar John born in Dublin on 22.4.1881 to John & Lydia. He may be the same as John Charles.
It seems that the Egars went to Canada between 1881 and 1888, and after the death of their parents in Canada, the children returned to Dublin.
Perhaps one of our readers knows more about the Egar family.
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Another mystery solved !
Re Posts 21-23 & 58-59- Accidental death of chemist's son:
I have just found the following Baptism record from St Mary's R.C. Pro-Cathedral, Dublin :
Mark Henry Sweny, born 1.8.1875 to Mark Halpin Sweny & Catherine Davis, now of 119 Lwr.Gardiner St, baptised on 1 May 1882 by Fr. Cornelius Ryan, with the following note-
'The father is a Protestant. The child being in danger of death was privately baptized.'
I assume his health was poor, and this may explain why he fell into the fire in 1891. He was born in 1875, and his parents married in 1878. Three more sons were born and given Catholic baptisms.
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Dr. Mark Sweny’s second daughter Lydia, married John Jos. Egar in 1873. By 1881 they had five children, all born in Dublin. By 1888 they had moved to Quebec, Canada where two more were born. Egar died there on 15.9.1899 and Lydia on 8.2.1900, followed by their son Herbert Sidney, who was killed in an accident in the USA on 12.6.1900. The two youngest children, Winifred 12, and Stanley,10 (they may have been older) were noted in the 1901 Dublin Census, staying with the Wilkinsons. They sailed back to Canada in 1904, presumably to be looked after by their elder siblings.
John Joseph Egar mar. Lydia Lovely Sweny (dau of Dr Mark) 5 June 1873.Issue:
Arthur George 30.4.1874; Mildred Sarah Anne 6.2.1876; Herbert Sidney
31.10.1877; Amy Madelene 4.1.1880; Oscar John 22.4.1881,
Born in Canada- Winifred ?1888 and Stanley ?1890
Three burials from St. Martin Anglican church Montreal Quebec:
John J Egar of Montreal died 15 Sept.1899 aged 46 years, and was interred on 16th. Sept. 1899, in the presence of Herbert S. Egar and Oscar J. Egar.
Lydia L. Sweny, widow of late John J. Egar of Montreal, died on 8th. Feb. 1900 aged 55, and was buried on 10th. Feb. 1900. In the presence of E. McManus and Oscar J. Egar.
Herbert Sidney, son of late John J. Egar of Montreal, was killed by accident at Pittsfield, Massachusetts USA on the 12th. day of June 1900, aged 20 years, and was buried at Montreal on the 14th. June 1900. In the presence of G. M. McManus.
Dublin Census 1901 at Cullenswood, Rathmines & Rathgar:
Wm Fredk Wilkinson 53 Collector General Dept. (retired); Elvira 54; both born Dublin City
Sons James 24, Insurance Clerk; Frederick 21, Commercial Traveller, both Single, both b. Dub.City
Stanley Egar, 10, nephew; Winifred Egar, 12, niece, both scholars, both born Canada
All Baptists (sic).
Passenger List ‘Dominion’ from Liverpool to Montreal, arrived 3.5.1904.
Winifred Egar, 15 yrs & Stanley Egar 11 yrs. Both from Lancashire, England.
(I think this refers to where the ship sailed from), Destination Montreal.
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to #32
Hi there - I am a descendant of John paget Sweny born 1810 approx.
He was my Great x 4 grandfather. I come down the line of Rev. Eugene Sweny and then down to Georgina Charlotte Frederica Sweny who Married Deane Shute - they are my great great grandparents.
I would love to chat about this further if you're interested - I have been searching online for quite some time - and joined various groups - so hope to hear from you with further information.
my email is (*)
cheers
Kerry Sorensen-tyrer
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy, to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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#32 - Can I also please add for Kenneth - your mention of Georgina Charlotte - who is my great grandmother - she had 3 children - the eldest is Eileen Margaret b.1897 (we are trying to find her as she went missing) Hubby was was Felix Hindmarsh Bolton.
Second child of Georgina and Deane Orford Shute was Rona Irene born 1899 and then Berthon Deane born 1905... and was divorced - but he went on to marry and have about 10 more kids and divorce yet again!!
not sure if this is helpful but this is the line I'm searching more information about. cheers Kerry
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Hi Kerrydave,
Thanks for your post. I found that Georgina died in Santa Clara, California on 28.10.1953.
Hope I haven't got the wrong one, as obviously some of the family are still in New Zealand.
I'll reply to you direct, and summarize for the forum, as I'm sure the others will be interested.
Ken
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Update- details of children of Rev. Eugene Sweny and Elizabeth Ovens (mar. 13.11.1866),
all born Donegal, Ireland:
Emily Teresa Grace 1.2.1868
James Montgomery Ovens 16.5.1869
William Halpin Paterson 2.10.1871
John Charles Coote 24.12.1872
Georgiana Charlotte Frederica 23.6.1874
Shapland Arthur 20.1.1877
Later ‘Georgie’ dropped the ‘a’ and became Georgina.
UK Census 1891 Stiffkey, Walsingham, Norfolk, at Rectory:
Sweny, Eugene, Rector 54, Elizabeth, wife, 45, Emily FGA, daughter 23, John C Coote, son, 18, all born Ireland.
James & William were probably studying elsewhere. Arthur had died in 1899. Georgie
was only 16, probably in boarding school, perhaps still in Ireland.
UK Census 1891 Gatwick, Surrey, Georgina Sweeny, School Governess, age 21, born 1869/70, Donegal, Ireland (boarder in household) Not likely that this is our Georgina.
Marriage- Shute—Sweny, Sept. 22, at Palmerston Nth. New Zealand, by the Rev. William Thomson, Deane Orford Shute, late Lieut. 4th Border Regiment, youngest son of the late Colonel N. Shute of 4th Regiment, to Georgiana Charlotte Frederica (Georgie), youngest daughter of the Rev. Eugene Sweny, M.A., rector of Stiffkey and Morston, Norfolk. From ‘The Colonies & India’ of 14 Nov 1896.
Children of Deane & Georgina Shute, NZ:
Eileen Margaret 1897, mar.NZ 1920 Felix Bolton, div.1928
Rona Irene 1899, mar. USA c.1930 Lester Lafferty
Berthon Deane 1905-1943
Divorce- NZ Supreme Court- Shute v. Shute, Applicant Georgina Charlotte Frederica Shute,
Respondant Dean Orford Shute.Decree Nisi granted 17 Sep. 1908. To be made Absolute in 3 mths.
Reported Feilding Star, NZ, 18 Sept. 1908.
NZ Electoral Roll 1928 Rona Shute, Res. Wellington North
NZ Elec Roll 1928 Eileen Margt Bolton, Pahiatua, Manawatu NZ (Rona’s sister)
USA-Application for Naturalization granted 3 Jan. 1929- Rona Irene Shute, born New Zealand, Resident California.
USA- Engagement Notice 11.3.1930 Rona Shute from Wellington N.Z. to Mr. L. E. Lafferty of
Gerber, California.
Rona Lafferty, Residence 1935 Gerber, California (& San Carlos & San Mateo) born abt. 1899 NZ, Spouse Lester E. Lafferty, from Newton Family Tree (online).
Shipping Lists 1935- visited NZ. Rona Lafferty, b. Ashhurst NZ, with ‘friend’ Lester Lafferty
USA- Death Georgina Shute (Sweny), birth (other country) 23 June 1874, Died 28 Oct. 1953 Santa Clara, California, USA, Mother’s name Ovens, father Sweny
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I had assumed that Mark Halpen Sweny (1783-1865) left Ireland as a boy to join the Royal Navy and never returned. But it seems that Sweny did return to Ireland for a short time before settling in England.
Letter from Mark H Sweny, lieutenant, Royal Navy, Rathmines, Dublin, to Charles Grant, Chief Secretary, Dublin Castle, requesting appointment to post of surveyor or local inspector of fisheries; includes letter from Sweny to Earl Talbot, Lord Lieutenant, Dublin Castle, applying for position and to state that he served in the battle of Trafalgar, ‘lost both thumbs and a finger and was selected to fill the situation of first Lieutenant of the Northumberland when that ship carried Bonaparte to St Helena’ (1815). From Nat Archives Ireland, April/May 1820.
I take it that his application was rejected, as he turns up in England in 1822. Sweny is mentioned in ‘Diaries of a Lady of Quality’ (1797-1844) by Miss Frances Williams Wynn, who had met him at a ball in Hastings in 1822.
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Forgive me but I have not read all the above posts, and it may be covered, but Capt Mark Sweny's service is included in O'Bryne's Naval Biography written in 1849. Also the National Archives hold his Lieutenants Passing Certificate, which according to the index includes birth details ADM 107/32 pages 91-93 & ADM 6/103 page 231.
Martin
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Thank you Martin,
I'll check on your sources, there may well be something new. I'll let you know.
Regards & Happy New Year.
Ken
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Eugene Sweny, ‘druggist’ of Mary St. Dublin, married Elizabeth Halpen in 1777. They had three sons; the first two served in the armed forces. I am descended from the third son, Eugene jnr., a civilian.
The second son, Mark Halpen Sweny, was baptised on 11 Nov.1783 at St.Mary’s, Dublin. He served on at least nineteen ships during his naval career- Formidable, Castor, Barfleur, Donegal, Neptune, Renown, Colossus, Sparrow, St. Alban’s, Aquilon, Elephant, Benbow, Africa, Northumberland, Severn, Gannet, Vernon, President and Serpent.
On 5 June 1798, aged 14, he entered the Royal Navy as a first class volunteer on board the Formidable, serving with the Channel Fleet. The following year, on 23.2.1799, Sweny became a midshipman, or master’s mate, and served on the Castor where he was ‘severely wounded while fitting at Plymouth’.
Like his elder brother, he saw action in the Napoleonic wars. He served as acting lieutenant on the Colossus at the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805, where he was again seriously wounded. Sweny was promoted to lieutenant on 22.1.1806, commander in 1821, and captain in 1838.
Sweny was on HMS Africa in 1808 where he was wounded again during the subsequent action against the Danish flotilla in the Malmö Channel.
Sweny left the Africa, and took part in an action in China on the St. Alban’s in 1809, under Capt. F. W. Austen (Jane’s brother). It is said that he was wounded and lost one or two fingers in the action off Malmö. He was later called ‘Three Finger Jack’. In 1816 he was awarded a pension for his wounds of £91.5s. annually.
After the fall of Paris in March 1814, Napoleon went into exile on the Mediterranean island of Elba, but he escaped, returned to France and formed a new army. His last attempt at military victory ended at Waterloo on 18 June 1815. A month later, he gave himself up to the British.
This time he was exiled to a much more secure place, the island of St. Helena in the Atlantic. It was so remote that the voyage there took ten weeks. Mark Sweny was the senior lieutenant on the ship which carried him there, the Northumberland.
When Napoleon saw him, he claimed that they had met before, but it turned out that he was confusing him with his brother John, whom he had met at Waterloo. Napoleon is said to have commented, ‘He was my prisoner. And now I am yours.’
It seems that Sweny returned to Ireland for a short time before settling in England- see #79.
Sweny is mentioned in ‘Diaries of a Lady of Quality’ (1797-1844) by Miss Frances Williams Wynn, who had met him at a ball in Hastings in 1822. She calls him Captain Sweeney, so she was probably writing from her notes after 1838, when he had been promoted. He gave her an account of his dealings with the famous prisoner during the long voyage. She reports one exchange Sweny had with Napoleon:
One day he was sitting on deck in rain such as I am told can scarcely be conceived by those who have not felt tropical rains: Bertrand, Montholon, and Lascasas were all standing round him bareheaded.
My informant spoke to them, and especially to Lascasas, who has very delicate health, telling them they would make themselves ill if they did not put on their hats: they did not answer, and Buonaparte gave him a very angry look, but said nothing. He then said, 'General, you had better send for a cloak; you'll be wetted to the skin'. He very sternly replied, 'I am not made of sugar or salt.'
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Sweny seems to have enjoyed himself in Hastings. He had lots of anecdotes to ‘dine out on’, and perhaps he was at the ball looking for a wife. I believe he had a son, Mark, born in London on 19.4.1830 to Mark and Rebecca Sweny. And in 1844 a death was registered by his household, of a Mark Sweny aged 14 years. But there is no record of a marriage, or any further trace of Rebecca. Sweny always claimed that he was unmarried.
One of Sweny’s friends was Francis William Austen, a fellow naval officer who later became an admiral, as did his brother. Sweny had served under Capt. Austen on three ships, Neptune, St. Alban’s and Elephant. Through him Sweny met his sister, the writer Jane Austen.
Sweny used to visit Jane Austen when he was a house guest at Alton nearby, where Francis lived. In fact, Francis, his wife, a Miss S. Gibson and Sweny were known as the ‘Alton Four’ by Jane Austen. She mentions Sweny in two letters to her sister Cassandra in 1816.
The first describes a visit from the ‘Alton Four’. It was very pleasant, with a violin playing. It was ‘all new to Mr. Sweney, & he entered into it very well’. In the second one, she wrote ‘We are wanting (lacking) nothing except the company of Mr. Sweney, who has been ordered back to London.’
In November 1830 Sweny sailed the Gannet to the West Indies, carrying a Capt. Trefusis, who was to sail the Winchester back from there. In 1835, on the ‘Serpent’, he accompanied the Winchester carrying the new Governor of Jamaica, the Marquis of Sligo, on a visit to the Cayman Islands.
He returned to England in June 1836, living on half-pay and his pension. In 1841, after the death of his brother, John in France, Mark brought his sister-in-law, Eliza and her six children back to live with him in London.
He made various investments, with mixed success. In the early 1840s he invested in a land venture through the London based Western Australia Company, which sold land in that colony. By 1843 he was one of the nine directors of the company, but the venture was short-lived. A town was planned, called Australind, where today three streets are named after directors of the company- Sweny Drive, Montefiore Street and Brooking Place.
The site proved unsuitable for a large settlement and was eventually abandoned and the company wound up in 1846. Sweny was appointed as one of the trustees.
In 1854, Mark was appointed to be one of the four Resident Captains (Governors) at Greenwich Hospital (for old sailors). He had an apartment there, where he lived with Eliza, his sister-in-law. In his will, he left everything to her, but she died before him, on 9th Feb.1864.
In the Western Australia Company archives there is a record of a letter from 22 July 1864 which begins:
In the Matter of Mark Halpen Sweeny, a person of unsound mind ........
Sweny was replaced in December 1864. He died on 25.11.1865, 82 years old, and is buried in the Pleasaunce (park) at Greenwich.
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First of all, I would like to congratulate all contributors to this really excellent forum. It is a credit to all of you. My connection to the Sweny family is through my great grandmother, Amelia Sarah Sweny (1852-1928) who married Edward Nicholson Harding (1847-1938).
I did not think that I would have anything of interest to add to the discussion, but I may have! In an earlier post Kenneth Cooke discussed the Rev. Eugene Sweny. It is known that he was rector of a parish in Norfolk for the last 23 years of his life. What may be of interest is that a photo of his headstone in the graveyard of his parish of St John the Baptist is available online. It can be accessed at http://www.gravestonephotos.com/public/gravephoto.php?grave=222803&requestee=30454&scrwidth=1300.
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Thanks very much for that photo - much appreciated. I had also found that photo some time ago - but others may not - cheers Kerry
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Hi David,
Thanks for the tip about the grave of Revd. Sweny. It was rather hard to read the inscription.
I don't think it mentioned his wife, Elizabeth, nee Ovens, who died in 1902, but I assume she's also there.
I guess you know Donald & Maureen. He is also descended from Edward Harding & Emily/Amelia Sweny.
Ken
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The best known of Revd. Eugene Sweny’s children was his second son, William Halpin Paterson Sweny, who became a ship’s officer with the P.& O. Line. In the 1890s he was 3rd & 4th mate on P & O ships sailing to Sydney.
By 1911 William was also a naval officer, and the story goes that in December of that year he accompanied King George V and Queen Mary to India for the Delhi Durbar and coronation. In my search for confirmation, I found that the royal couple travelled to Bombay on the newly built P & O Medina, so it may be true. Sweny was awarded the CBE, and it has been said that he became an ADC to the King. He served in WW1 as a commander, and later as a captain in the Royal Naval Reserve.
He served on various P & O ships over the years, sailing to the U.S., and making numerous voyages to Sydney and New Zealand between 1894 and 1921. There is no record of any contact with his relatives in Australia. He was my grandfather’s first cousin, but I doubt if they knew about each other.
In 1919 he commanded the S.S. ‘Bremen’ (one of the German vessels handed over to the Allies) when she carried Australian servicemen returning from the war in Europe.
Sweny settled in London, where he became a marine supervisor at Tilbury. He donated a new clergy desk to the church at Stiffkey in memory of his parents. He is noted at the Patents Office as the owner of three marine patents, including one dated 1932 for an improvement in hatches for ships' holds.
When his first wife, Adele died in 1921, William married Nora Cottew, daughter of a P & O captain. In 1947, when they visited New York on the ‘Queen Mary’, William was listed as a ‘master mariner’. He died on 7 August 1951, leaving an estate of £32,804.
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In my original post to open this topic, I said that my Gr Gr grandfather John Paget Sweny was the father of 14 children. It now seems that the actual number was thirteen.
No. 8, Mark Halpin Sweny, said to have been born in 1847, was baptised on 24.10.1850, along with his sister, No. 9, Louisa Mary. There is no further trace of Mark.
There are no birth or baptism details for No.10, William Halpin, but when he applied for a US passport in 1891 he stated that he was born in Dublin on 20 September 1850.
The Swenys were in New York for the US Census of 22.6.1870, when William was 19.
This fits in with the date of birth on his passport application.
He was born five weeks before the baptism of Mark and Louisa. Why wasn’t he baptised at the same time ?
The only explanation is that Mark and William were one and the same person.
For some reason, he was baptised as Mark, but they called him William.
Other contributors are welcome to check the details and either confirm or demolish my theory.
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Regarding Kenneth Cooke's comment about the inscription on Rev Eugene Sweny's headstone being difficult to read, the following is the actual inscription:
''In loving memory of the Rev. Eugene Sweny for 23 years Rector of this parish [St John the Baptist] and Morston who departed this life on May 18th 1906 aged 69'.
There is no mention of his wife, Elizabeth (Ovens).
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A number of Swenys settled in Canada and the U.S. Albert Edward, the son of Fredk.Wm. the chemist, of 1 Lincoln Place, Dublin, settled in New York. He arrived on 6.2.1911, aged 22. His passage was paid by his father. It seems that it was necessary for him to leave Ireland.
A present day relative in Ireland remembers hearing that ‘a sandy-haired young man had to leave
for the US because he was in some trouble at home.’
The ship’s list describes his hair as brown. We do not know whether he stayed in the U.S.
Fredk.Wm’s brother, Herbert Sidney, b.1859, paid the passages for his four sons between 1910 and 1920, and in 1930, a widower, he went to New York and stayed with his son Frederick. He then went on to visit Walter and family in Pennsylvania. He returned to Ireland and died in 1933. Both Frederick and Walter were later drafted and served in W.W.2.
Walter’s son, Walter jnr. settled in Texas. His other son, another Herbert Sidney, born in 1920, graduated from high school in Erie, Pennsylvania in 1939, and was drafted into the navy during the war. In 1946 he started his own engineering business in Erie, and today it is still a family business, with his five sons in positions of management, and employing about 575 people.
Lieutenant Colonel George Augustus, son of John Paget, the Waterloo veteran, emigrated with
his wife Alice to Vancouver, Canada. He donated an antique silk screen from the Abyssinian Campaign to the University of British Columbia.
He was very active in his retirement, being involved in many different organisations. He was a founding member of the Canadian Red Cross in 1909, and the same year was president of the Royal Canadian Golf Association. In 1915 the king appointed Sweny a Knight of Grace of the Order of St John of Jerusalem. He died in April 1918. Most of his ‘souvenirs’ from Abyssinia (now called Ethiopia) had been donated to the Royal Ontario Museum, where they remain today.
George’s two sons, Roy and William Frederick, also settled in Canada, as well as his sister Marie Louise, (Mrs. George Humphreys). Roy went to study at Christ’s College Cambridge from 1890 to 1894, then returned to Canada where he married in 1899. Roy’s elder son George William, b.1900, a company general manager, and his wife were among 37 killed in a plane crash at Moose Jaw, as they were flying from Montreal to Vancouver in 1954.
William Fredk became a Brigadier General and was wounded in the First World War, while
serving as GOC of the 61st Infantry Brigade. He received the DSO and CMG medals. He later settled in Scotland with his second wife, Kathleen Blackett, née Bagenal. They took the name Blackett-Swiny. He had two sons by his first wife, George Frederick and Charles. The elder son, 21 years old, was killed in India in a riding accident.
George's brother was Mark Arthur, whose youngest son, Clarence Stowell, b.1882, also went to Ontario, Canada, where he married in 1921. His descendants still live there. His son Alan served with the RAF during WW2 as a tail gunner, and returned to Canada after the war.
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Another brother, Albert Henry and his wife Anna Roy settled in Albany, New York, which was Anna’s home town. Albert was one of the founding members of the Albany Country Club. His son Harry Roy Sweny wrote a book about golf, “Keep Your Eye on the Ball and Your Right Knee Stiff”, dated 1898. He married Louise, daughter of General Amasa Parker, a U.S. judge.
Harry was well known in golfing and social circles, and owned a trotting horse, and of course, belonged to his father’s Country Club. His obituary, in The New York Times of 28.5.1914, described him as one of the best known amateur sportsmen in the country.
Dr. Mark’s second daughter Lydia, married John Jos. Egar in 1873. By 1881 they had five children, all born in Dublin. By 1888 they had moved to Quebec, Canada where two more were born.
Egar died there on 15.9.1899 and Lydia on 8.2.1900, followed by their son Herbert Sidney, who was killed in an accident in the USA on 12.6.1900. The two youngest children, Winifred 12, and Stanley,10 (they may have been older) were noted in the Dublin Census of 31.3.1901, staying with the Wilkinsons. They sailed back to Canada in 1904, presumably to be looked after by their elder siblings.
William, son of John Paget (2), became a lawyer and broker, of 140 Nassau St. New York, and married a French girl, Blanche, but no children are recorded. He was naturalized in 1871.
The New York Times of 23.5.1884 reported that he was arrested and charged with ‘Conversion
of Money’ (misappropriation). He was released on bail of $2000. He applied for a passport in April 1891, giving his date of birth as 20.9.1850. In 1910, from the same address, he wrote to the Office of Arms, Dublin to request information about the Sweny family pedigree, traced back from J. P. Sweny, his father. The details in the letter of reply are based on the faulty Sweny of Dublin pedigree. He made several trips back to Ireland, one in 1930 when he was a widower.
Gladys Paget Sweny, a nurse, born in1893, emigrated to the U.S. in 1906 to stay with William Sweny, the lawyer. In US immigration records, she refers to William as her uncle, and to her sister, Hilda in Dublin, at the same address where Ralph and Edith were living in the 1939 Electoral Roll. So she was Ralph’s daughter and a granddaughter of John Paget, undertaker.
She made several trips back to Ireland. She never married and died in 1967.
Lady Rena Terrington, née Swiney (descended from both Sweny & Swiney), appears to have settled in the U.S. after her husband’s trial. She is said to have died in 1973, but neither the time nor the place has been verified.
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This seems to be his baptism in St Annes C O I, 24 Sep 1889
Frederick William Albert Edward Sweny 1 Lincoln Place son of Frederick Wm and Sophia Mary, i think the census returns for 1901 and 1911 are for a second marriage of the father to a Sarah.
Now the interesting thing is there is a marriage on the civil index in 1910 for a Frederick William Sweny could this have been him and possibly disapproved of by his family.
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So are Frederick William and Albert Edward the same person?
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To Dathai,
No, they were two brothers, baptised at the same time.
Ken
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Are you sure there is no indication on the baptism that it refers to two people.
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also Frederick William appears on 1901 Census age 11 but no Albert Edward.
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This could be something to do with his trouble back home
Prison Register Mountjoy 1909 Fredk Sweeney (also known as means next of kin) Fredk Wm Sweeney
address 1 Lincoln Place born 1889 Charlemont Rd offence resist police.
There are no Frederick Sweeneys on the 1901/1911 census in Dublin.
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Thanks for that,
Now I wonder, there are no Swenys with four names + surname.
I have tried to ring my distant cousin in Ireland, she is a niece of the two Swenys involved, but
unfortunately she's not answering.
I'll try again, and we'll see if we can sort out this mystery.
Ken
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I have his brother, Albert Edward, as arriving in New York in 1911, but the story goes that the one in trouble with the police was the one who went to the USA.
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I honestly believe that its the one and the same person,have you found a passenger list for a Frederick William of the right age going to America?.
Perhaps he was told to drop his first names to cover up something.
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And to note Frederick William is not on the Irish 1911 Census either.
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Thanks for that. I'll check up on it.
Ken
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If you refer to my Post #50, I tried to sort out the various names of children of Dr. Mark Sweny and his son Fredk Wm, the chemist.
Now I have looked up the baptism record of 24.9.1889 for Fredk Wm Albert Edward Sweny, which omits his date of birth. It obviously refers to one person only.
On my family tree for Dr. Mark’s branch, I have shown Fredk Wm and Albert Edward separately.
A note under the first name says ‘fl.1916’ and under the 2nd. ‘arr. NY Feb.1911'.
I must have found a reference to Fredk Wm from 1916, and the other one on the shipping list.
Now I have revisited the shipping lists for US arrivals, and found two entries which seem relevant:
SS Baltic dep. Liverpool 28.1.1911, arr. New York 6.2.11,
Albert Edward Sweny, 21½, Chemists’s Assistant, Irish, from Dublin. Father Fredk Wm Sweny,
1 Lincoln Pl. Dublin. To New York, New Rochelle
No ship’s name, Dep. L’pool for New York 28.12.1911, Mr. Albert E ? W Sweny, Chemist, 21 yrs,
English, to New York (the ? could be either a G or an F)
The first seems to be a transcript of the original, with fewer details included. I am sure that when I looked it up a few years ago, I noted that it said ‘passage paid for by his father’.
So we don’t know where he finally settled, or whether he ever returned to Ireland.
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Would these two? boys have had to receive some sort of diploma or certificate to practise chemistry.
Where were they? educated.Would it have been a college which would have records.
The 1888 Frederick is most likely Herbert and Sarahs son now he's missing off the 1911 census as well and i dont see any passenger listing for him on Family Search which i am confined to for research.
Did you get the 1888 birth cert to see who the parents are and did you get the 1910 marriage cert to see whos son he was.
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I conceded that you were right, and that the baptism at St. Anne's on 24.9.1889 concerned one person, Fredk Wm Albert Edward Sweny, no DOB shown. In subsequent life, he used different combinations of his four names. I don't think it's necessary to obtain his birth certificate, but you are welcome to do so, if you are still curious.
His parents were Frederick William Sweny, chemist of 1 Lincoln Place, and Sophia Mary Johnson.
I doubt very much that he was a qualified chemist, and I am not curious enough to chase that up.
The two entries on the US shipping arrival lists are almost certainly for the same person.
Re the marriage in 1910, the groom was Wm. Fredk. not the other way round. He married Gladys Cole Metge, regd. Dublin Sth J-S 1910, Vol. 2 Page 515.
He was a second cousin of Fredk. Wm, the chemist's son, and became a Brigadier General, finally settling in Scotland with his second wife (see my post 90 of 2 May).
As for the Dublin Census of 2.4.1911, FWAE Sweny wouldn't be noted, as he had arrived in New York on 6 Feb.1911.
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not here to knock you just to put you right, i thought they were one and the same person and am glad that you have finally realised that what i have concluded is right. I wont be buying any birth certificates to prove that Frederick William born 1888 is the same person as it is of no revelence to me,only if you want to prove different it is up to you.
Best Regards
Dathai.
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I don't need to buy the certificate, I already know who he is.
Frederick William Sweny, born 1888 Dublin to Herbert Sidney Sweny (brother of the chemist) and his wife Sarah Jane Wilson.
Advice is a good thing to have, but unsolicited advice is not always welcome.
I hope this is the last word on the five Frederick Williams.
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It certainly is, from me anyway.
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OK, thank you.
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Its nice to be appreciated thank you.
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I have read the following on another forum:
Reported in Irish Times 29 April 1916 (the time of the Easter Uprising)-
"Amongst those who lost their lives as a result of gunshot wounds was F W Sweny (13) of
1 Lincoln Place" (Our FWS was 27)
A relative in Ireland remembers hearing about this incident, but is not sure who it was.
It seems that our Fredk Wm was in prison in 1909, went to the USA in 1911, was shot dead in
Dublin in April 1916, and was mentioned in his father's will dated June 1916.
I wonder if it would be possible for some kind person to look up the article and confirm the details. I would be very grateful. As I live in Australia, I'm a bit far away to do it myself.
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Joe Duffy wrote a book recently and it is dedicated to the children who died 1916 and i'm afraid F W Sweny
is not listed among them.
It can be found by googling
Joe Duffy's list of children killed 1916.
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Living relatives assure me that one of the chemist's sons was killed when he went out to give
water to one of the men who had been shot on the street, possibly a soldier or a policeman.
The victim must have been William Lionel Sweny, born 1902/3, regd. Jan-Mar 1903. He was 13 in 1916. He was noted in the 1911 Census, 8 yrs, but is missing in his father’s will of June 1916. There doesn’t seem to be any record of his death.
It is said that his father was broken by this incident, especially as the police refused to release the body and the boy never had a proper burial.
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Just received from a Sweny cousin in the USA:
"It wasn't the Irish Times, it was the Irish Independent dated April 26, 27, 28, 29 May 1, 2, 3, 4
There's a bit about interrupted publication due to the unsafe conditions in the city. On the next page there is an article: Sad Scenes at Glassnevin. It talks about burying scores of unidentified bodies, including those of women and children."
Apparently there was a mass grave, with no chance of finding any relatives buried there.
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The incident happened during the Battle of the Mount St. Bridge, in which 300 civilians were killed.
One report states that Irish 'volunteers' shot at and killed some of the 'veteran' defenders (old men) and many people came out to assist the veterans, and were in turn shot at.
Mount St. is not far from Lincoln Place, just the other side of Merrion Square (park).
Two of my Sweny 'cousins' went to Glasnevin cemetery a few years ago, but got no information. Now that their records are digitalised, and we now know the correct name of the victim, I have suggested that they make another visit there.
There is a lot of information about the battle on the internet.
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There is a baptism record for Frederick William Albert Edward Sweny at St. Anne's, 24.9.1889. On the face of it, it refers to one individual, if the clergyman who registered the baptism was correct. It was on the last line of the page, and to my mind, the possibility did exist, that it referred to two children, possibly twins. However, I accepted that it was one person, but I needed to find absolute proof. I still had my doubts.
There were subsequent references to Frederick William, and to Albert Edward, but never to an individual with all four names. His father apparently referred to him as Fredk Wm., which was also his own name.
Now I have found more evidence to corroborate the single person theory, that is, another reference to Fredk Wm Albert Edward Sweny, or almost.
On the passenger list for his second voyage to New York, departure Liverpool 28.12.1911, he has reversed the order of the two pairs of names. He is listed as Albert E $ W Sweny, 21. The $ looks more like an S, but when I compared the handwriting on another name, two lines above Sweny’s, it referred to Frank somebody, and the way of writing the F was identical to Sweny’s entry.
So it would be reasonable to assume that Albert E F W Sweny, chemist, from Dublin is the same as our Frederick William Albert Edward Sweny, son of the chemist of Lincoln Place. It seems he was known to some as Albert, to others as Frederick. ( His father was called ‘Fred’)
He was the eldest living son, and I have been told that it was the law in Ireland at that time, that the eldest son inherited the largest part of the estate. In his father’s will of 1916, Fredk Wm jnr. was to get £200. He did not inherit the business, however. That went to George Arthur, the first son from the second marriage. Fredk Wm senior died in 1924. It seems the chemist shop was sold very soon afterwards.
From Thom's Dublin Directory:
In 1924 & 1925: F.W.Sweny & Co. Ltd. Druggists & Dispensing Chemists, 1 Lincoln Place
In 1926: P. J. Killackey, Dispensing Chemist, 1 Lincoln Place
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I have just received a reply re the reporting of the shooting of William Lionel Sweny, son of Fredk Wm, the chemist, from a contributor on ancestry.com:
"Your analysis proved correct. Found a death notice inserted by the family for this lad in Weekly Irish Times of 28 April 1916. Died in Lower Mount Street as result of gunshot wound.
Also, the age quoted (13) fits this boy, rather than the older son Frederick William.
Well done and thanks again."
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The actual death notice read:
From Irish Weekly Times, Sat April 29, 1916, page 12:
“SWENY – April 26, at Lower Mount Street, as result of a gunshot wound, William Lionel, son of F.W. Sweny, 1 Lincoln Place, aged 13 years.”
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The chemist described by James Joyce in ‘Ulysses’ was Frederick William Sweny, who in the book sold some perfume and a cake of lemon-scented soap to Mr. Leopold Bloom. Bloom was on his one-day ‘odyssey’ round Dublin on 16 June 1904, now known as ‘Bloomsday’ and celebrated annually by ‘pilgrims’ following in his footsteps. According to Joyce, the sign then read ‘F.W. Sweny & Co. (Limited), Dispensing Chemists’.
I doubt if Joyce actually met Sweny. His description of him is vague-
‘Sandy shrivelled smell he seems to have. Shrunken skull. And old.’
‘He ought to physic himself.’
He does not come across as a real character.
‘About a fortnight ago sir ?’ ‘Yes sir.’ ‘Fourpence sir.’
‘You can pay all together, sir, when you come back.’
If you visit the chemist shop today, you will see a photo of Frederick Sweny on the counter. He looks well, like a young middle-aged man perhaps.
Joyce began working on Ulysses in 1914, and the first edition came out in Paris in 1922. I wonder when Joyce met Sweny.
In 1904, Sweny was 47, and I would guess the photo is from around this time.
After the death of his son Lionel in 1916, his health, both physical and mental, is said to have deteriorated. Lionel died at Easter, and within two months, Sweny had drawn up his will. He died in 1924.
Citations from Ulysses- Penguin Edition pp. 85 & 596
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William Lionel Sweny 1902-1916 of 1 Lincoln Place Dublin,
Son of Fredk Wm Sweny, chemist, and Sarah Jane Owens
Birth registered Jan-Mar 1903 Dublin South Vol.2, Page 692. No Baptism record found.
1911 Census at 1 Lincoln Place, Wm Lionel Sweny, son, 8 yrs. C of I.
Death Notice from Irish Weekly Times, Sat April 29, 1916, page 12:
“SWENY – April 26, at Lower Mount Street, as result of a gunshot wound, William Lionel,
son of F.W. Sweny, 1 Lincoln Place, aged 13 years.”
From Irish Times, Friday 12 May 1916, Page 6:
46 interments at Dean’s Grange Cemetery of military, civilians and insurgents,
killed during the rebellion.
Civilians identified and buried at Dean’s Grange include:
W. H. Sweeney, aged 13 years, of Wentworth Place, Dublin
This is the third reference to a Swe(e)ny killed at Easter 1916. The other one was F W Sweny,
the name of the chemist, father of Lionel, mentioned in the Irish Times (see #111).
It is most unlikely that there were two or three victims named Swe(e)ny. In the confusion of the times, I believe that the wrong initials, and address were printed. The boy's age is correct.
We are making enquiries at Dean's Grange Cemetery.
We have also notified Joe Duffy of 'Liveline' radio program.
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ONCE AGAIN SWENY'S CHEMIST SHOP IS THREATENED WITH CLOSURE !
AND BLOOMSDAY IS JUST A FEW DAYS AWAY.
YOU CAN HELP BY SIGNING AN ONLINE PETITION TO SAVE SWENY'S FROM CLOSURE.
EMAIL SWENY'S TO SAY YOU WILL SIGN, AND THEY'LL SEND YOU THE FORM ONLINE.
swenyspharmacy@gmail.com
THANKS
KEN
P.S. WILL DUBLIN EVER BE THE SAME AGAIN IF SWENY'S IS CLOSED ?
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OR YOU CAN GOOGLE IN:
change.org sweny pharmacy
AND REGISTER YOUR COMMENT DIRECT
There are now over 1000 signatures, but more will be needed.
Ken
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The chemist was Frederick William Sweny 1856-1924.
His grandparents were Eugene Sweny, coachmaker & undertaker, and Lydia Jones.
I have started a new rootschat topic about Lydia's father, called "John Jones of Jervais St. Dublin and Oldtown Co. Kildare". He was my 4 x Gt. grandfather.
Those following the Swenys may well be interested.
Ken
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Just received news from the Chemist shop:
"Hi Ken, all great in Swenys, we have won our appeal and continue to thrive. I am on holiday and it all happened while I was away so will update change.org asap. Kind regards, Wendy"
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My great great grandfather owned this pharmacy, my great grandfather was frederick william sweeny jnr, my grandfather is frederick william sweeney, his surname was changed because there was an issue with school or something and the name being considered to protestant to enter a Catholic school, My great great grandfather left the pharmacy to the eldest son from his second marriage (don't no why) From my side the name sweeny stopped at my grandfather, but the line goes on its just sweeney instead! My grandfather was frederick william sweeny's jnr only son,
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Welcome to the Forum.
The name has many variations in spelling.
Where did your great grandfather live ?
What work did he do ?
Do you know when he died ?
I guess you heard about him from your grandfather.
Ken
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My great grandfather lived in Cabra, he had 6 girls and 1 boy, He worked for Dublin bus and also done tours to glendalough, I actually remember his funeral it was the late 80's, my grandad couldn't remember the year exactly he will have to look up his death cert.
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My grandad was born Sweny, I put Sweeny bye accident sorry, His uncle was the young boy shot in 1916 and his father was the boys older brother.
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I've being going over some previous posts, there seems to be some confusion over Frederick william sweny's sons,, to put it simply it's complicated because he married twice, and had children with both wifes I will speak to my grandfather Tuesday, and then I be able to clear up some things here,
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Turns out I got it mixed up, My uncle posted on this forum years ago his grandfather my great grandfather was Cecil Desmond, son of the pharmacist, seems like my great great grandfather was a bit of a lady's man and all the Williams and Fredericks got me confused, Even my middle name is Frederick after my grandfather, who's name is Frederick after his Grandfather, and even my own sons name is Frederick after my own Grandfather!!! Sorry, I do apologise!!
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Hi again. There's nothing to apologise for.
I guess Noel is your uncle. Cecil Desmond was the bus driver. He lived in Cabra.
Wm Fredk. the eldest son, was by-passed on account of some trouble with the law.
His father paid to send him to the USA, and, as far as I know, he stayed there.
George Arthur inherited the business, but I don't think he stayed long.
There's a list of Fredk Wm's children on Page 6 of this forum, Reply 50.
Regards,
Ken
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Yep Noel is my uncle :) And Cecils son is my grandfather, Im very close to my grandfather so if I can help you with anything I will.
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William Lionel Sweny 1903-1916 of 1 Lincoln Place Dublin, Son of Fredk Wm Sweny, chemist, and Sarah Jane Owens
Birth registered Jan-Mar 1903 Dublin South Vol. 2, Page 692
1911 Census at 1 Lincoln Place, Wm Lionel Sweny, son, 8 yrs. C of I.
No baptism record has been found, nor death registration.
Death Notice from Irish Weekly Times, Sat April 29, 1916, page 12:
“SWENY – April 26, at Lower Mount Street, as result of a gunshot wound, William Lionel, son of F.W. Sweny, 1 Lincoln Place, aged 13 years.”
The rebellion had started on Easter Monday 24th April and lasted six days.
“Deans Grange Cemetery: Twelve unknown persons were also buried. These bodies came from St. Vincent's, Sir Patrick Dun's, Royal City of Dublin, and the Mater Hospitals.” From The Irish Times Sinn Féin Rebellion Handbook, page 61.
From Irish Times, Friday 12 May 1916, Page 6:
46 interments at Dean’s Grange Cemetery of military, civilians and insurgents, killed during the rebellion. Civilians identified and buried at Dean’s Grange include:
W. H. Sweeney, aged 13 years, of Wentworth Place Dublin
I believe that this was Lionel. Somebody must have identified him, but the reporter got the details wrong. It should have been W.L., and the surname Sweny, and the address should have been Lincoln Place (not far from Wentworth Pl.). The age was right.
There are three different versions of where Lionel was buried, Glasnevin, Mt Jerome & Deansgrange. Some say it was in a mass grave, others that his father identified and fetched the body to be interred in the family grave. One source says that the authorities refused to let him take it away. There was also a story that Lionel was first taken to nearby Sir Patrick Dun’s Hospital, and from there was sent to the cemetery. His father was said to have traced him via the hospital.
Is it possible that he was then buried in the family grave at Mt. Jerome, without the burial being registered due to the turbulence of the times? I enquired at Mt. Jerome recently, and they tell me
that there is no record of the burial of a Lionel Sweny, or any similar name, at any time.
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It was said that Frederick Sweny, the chemist, never got over Lionel’s death. He very soon had his will drawn up, and signed it on 14th June 1916, just seven weeks after the shooting. He lived another eight years and died on 11 March 1924, aged 67.
Re Topic: Civilian Death Easter Uprising:
“The main cemeteries used for those killed in the Rising were Glasnevin, Deansgrange and Mount Jerome. Only Protestants were buried in Mount Jerome.
It is unlikely anyone was buried unidentified. In order for a burial to take place a certificate had to be obtained from the military, and the identity of the dead person had to be proved. Coffins were opened and searched as they entered the cemetery and only one person was allowed to accompany the coffin to the grave site.
It is also very unlikely anyone is buried anywhere other than Dublin. Because of the large number
of bodies there was a fear of diseases spreading and burials took place as soon as possible after identification. It is also unlikely anyone was buried in Dublin and then re-buried somewhere else
at a later date. There was a government department called the Sanitation department from whom permission had to be granted before a re-burial could take place, and as far as I know only one
re-burial took place and that was one of the Rebels, Thomas Allen who was buried in Glasnevin
and then re-buried in Longwood Moyvally County Meath in 1917.” From a contributor to Rootschat Forum
Deansgrange Cemetery
“During the 1916 rising, the cemetery saw the burial of about 50 people connected to the rising. They were either innocent victims, republican volunteers or United Kingdom soldiers. There is a plot with 6 people buried and the rest are buried by their respective families.” “The ‘Angels plot’ was used from 1905 to 1989 to bury children. It is reckoned that 750 children are buried here.” From ‘Stories from beyond the grave’ by Jamie Moran.
“No Sweny is listed in the Irish Times Sinn Féin Rebellion Handbook as buried in any of the Dublin cemeteries; nor is there any record for that name in Glasnevin 1916 burials of identified casualties. No death record either.” From D. W.
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It's highly unlikely you will find any notice of a death of a protestant in sinn fein archives from that time if they were not pro republican, regardless of there age. And it's highly likely the best place to find young Williams resting place is deansgrane, I think that cemetery is divided down the middle for catholic and protestant.
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Thanks for your comments. The Handbook was published by the Irish Times, so I would expect it to be objective. I doubt if the man who aimed his rifle at Lionel knew or cared what religion he was. Nor the officials and guards at the cemetery. He shouldn't have been on the street during the shooting.
I agree with you that he is most likely buried at Deansgrange, but I doubt that we'll ever find out exactly where.
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Service of remembrance and reclamation for the 40 children killed in Easter Rising in 1916 will be held on TUESDAY MAY 5th. AT 11 AM IN CITY QUAY PARISH CHURCH, DUBLIN.
President Michael D Higgins will attend.
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Re previous post:
The service will be inter-denominational, led by clerics who are related to children killed in 1916.
Ken
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The venue of the Service of Reclamation and Remembrance for the 40 Children killed
during Easter 1916 has been changed to:
TUESDAY MAY 5TH AT 11 A.M , ST PATRICKS PARISH CHURCH RINGSEND
WITH REFRESHMENTS AFTERWARDS IN RINGSEND COMMUNITY CENTRE.
PRESIDENT MICHAEL D HIGGINS HAS AGREED TO ATTEND ON THIS DATE.
THE EVENT IS BEING RECORDED BY RTE TELEVISION FOR BROADCAST.
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http://m.independent.ie/life/health-wellbeing/rude-health-the-physicians-egg-34318582.html
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http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/children-of-the-rising-by-joe-duffy-the-forgotten-casualties-of-1916-1.2419717
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Thanks Sweeney83 for the two links to reviews of Joe Duffy's book "Children of the Rising" about the 40 innocent child victims of the 1916 Easter conflict in Dublin.
My grandfather's second cousin, 13 year old Lionel Sweny, son of the chemist, was among the victims.
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The Evening Herald is including copies of its Easter week publications free this week from last nights Herald
Column headed
Nuns in Cab Accident (which is not related) Monday May 8th 1916 page 3
second paragraph
''The twelve year old son of Mr F W Sweny,1 Lincoln Place was accidently shot dead in lower Mount St last Wednesday week . Much sympathy is felt for the little boys family in their loss ''
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Hello All,
Newbie here. Thanks for all your hard work detailing the history of the Sweny's of Dublin.
Cheers,
Lance (Aussie descendant of the Sweny/Yeates/Cooke line)
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Hi Egars and other relatives,
Dr. Mark Sweny’s daughter Lydia was my great-grandmother. Her son Stanley George Egar was my grandfather, and his son, Stanley Ernest Egar, was my father.
Lydia and her husband John Egar are buried in the plot that Lydia bought in Mount Royal Cemetery, Montreal. Also there are my grandparents, Stanley George Egar and his wife Beatrice Mercer; and other of John and Lydia’s son’s, Ernest Egar, his wife Elsie Callard and their daughter Verna; and my parents Stanley Ernest Egar and Shirley Loreen Lemon.
My brother John Egar and I are the only two remaining Egars that I know of. As far as we know, Lydia Sweny and John Egar had ten children. At least one or two died very young, but we never knew any except my grandfather’s brother, Ernest Egar.
I’m hoping there are other Egars out there somewhere. I’d love to hear about you.
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Joanne, I think all the Sweny's here have gone to the great Irish heaven and few responses will come.