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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Dorset => England => Dorset Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Roger The Hat on Friday 26 February 10 20:57 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
My Great Grandmother Fanny Ansley was born in Bridport, in 1866, to John Ansley (carpenter) and Anne.
I think I've found Fanny and Anne (widow) in the 1881 census (living with sister Ellen and her husband in Norwich), but I've been unable to locate any of the family in any previous census.
Fanny's birth certificate describes Anne as "late Connor, formerly King", but the only likely FreeBMD marriage match shows an Anne Northmore (?)
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
'Hat.
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deleted
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John and Jacob aged 6/4 on Census are reg as CRONHIMER. I tried to find a Marriage of Herman to Ellen to see what her maiden name was but no luck so far. ::)
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Hi, Trish
I've got Ellen Susan Ansley and Hermann Kronheimer, q2 1872 (FreeBMD),
but I haven't ordered their certificate (yet!).
Thanks for looking, Trish.
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Not sure if it is the same John and Ellen but I have found this on the 1861 census
RG number: RG09 Piece: 4383 Folio: 25 Page: 3
Address: 10, Hauteville, St Peter PortGuernsey and Adjacent Islands
ANSLEY, John Head Married M 39 1822 Comedian England
ANSLEY, Jane D Wife Married F 25 1836 Laundress St Helier Jersey
ANSLEY, Ellen Daughter UnmarriedF 4 1857 Scholar England
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Then sept 1854 this Ansley Ellen Tavistock 5b 321
No Ellen Susan though :(
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Hi, Teaurn,
There was a reason why this John wasn't the right one - but I can't remember what it was! :-[ :-[ :-[
I think Pels worked it out; I shall have to search my handwrittens to see if I can find it.
Whatever the outcome, I appreciate your looking for me. Thanks.
'Hat.
Added: I'm waiting delivery on that one!
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and this
1871 census RG number: RG10 Piece: 1077 Folio: 86 Page: 9
Address: Richmond Buildings, Brighton Sussex
ALLFREY, Ann Head F 48 1823 Sussex
ALLFREY, Ellen Daughter F 12 1859 Sussex
ALLFREY, Lousia Daughter F 10 1861 Sussex
ALLFREY, Fanny Daughter F 6 1865 Sussex
The census return is really faint so difficult to read but you have three of the right people :-\
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Now that warrants some serious investigation, Tea.
Fanny's father is "deceased" on her '81 marriage certificate, so that ties in.
I shall check this one out in the library tomorrow.
Thanks very much.
Roger.
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Dates and places of birth don't match but there is nothing else with Fanny and Ann together and I have tried all sorts of variations.
Hope it turns out to be something useful :)
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I'm really disappointed.
Fanny Allfrey (Allbrey) was, indeed, born in Sussex (Brighton). Her father was Philip, so she can't be mine.
I know this is a difficult one, so your efforts are genuinely appreciated.
'Hat.
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i see the 1881 has ellen and fanny's places of birth as devon not dorset .can u confirm the place of birth for us please
regards
alli
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Certainly, Alli,
Fanny's birth certificate:
Born: 5th June,1866, South Street, Bridport.
Father: John Ansley, Cabinet maker, Journeyman.
Mother: Ann Ansley, late Connor, formerly King.
Informant: The mark of Ann Ansley, Mother, South Street, Bridport.
Registered: 3rd July, 1866.
Thanks for looking at this.
'Hat.
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Hi Roger
Did you say you have Fanny's marriage cert of 1881? Was she only 15 when she married?
I can't find any trace of the family in 1871 - got to be a mistranscription of the name ::) ::)
Jan
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I have tried all sorts of variations without success :'(
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I suppose it doesn't give the number they lived in South Street does it? I was going to do an address search to see if they were there in 1861 or 1871, but there are 182 houses in that street. :( :(
Jan
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Nothing similar looking at 1871 an awful lot of Twine Spinners though (whatever they did)
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Hi, Jan,
Yes, she was married at fifteen - norty girl!
There was no number given for South Street, unfortunately.
I have tried all sorts of variations without success :'(
Well, try harder........! ;) :D :D :D :-*
Sorry, Tea - couldn't resist!
I am waiting for sister Ellen's overdue birth certificate. There may be more information to come.
Thanks, everyone, for your interest and persistence.
'Hat.
Right. I have to go and spin some twine..........
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hmmmmmmmmm frustrating family.been trying to find the marriage of the parents with not much success.can u confirm county of birth as 1881 says devon for mother and daughter ellen
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Well, try harder........! ;) :D :D :D :-*
Sorry, Tea - couldn't resist!
Right. I have to go and spin some twine..........
;D ;D ;D
I know story of my life 'could do better' 'must try harder' ::)
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Hi, Alli,
I've assumed that they are the correct family - Ann and daughter Fanny, living with Ann's other daughter Ellen and her husband, Herman Cronheimer, in Norwich.
However, Fanny married Albert Odell in 1881, in Cambridge, so she got about a bit.
'Hat.
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as 1881 says devon for mother and daughter ellen
For Ellen - 1881 says Honiton, 1891, 1901 and 1911 Crediton.
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then they could be in devon in 1861 or already in dorset.
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The reference on FreeBMD for ordering the birth certificate quoted Tavistock as the registration district. I don't know which villages this covers.
I was expecting the certificate today, but no luck.
'Hat.
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tavistock is in devon
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The reference on FreeBMD for ordering the birth certificate quoted Tavistock as the registration district. I don't know which villages this covers.
Now, that is easily sorted ;D http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/tavistock.html
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all the places that come under Tavistock are:-
Bere Ferrers
Bradstone
Brentor
Buckland Monachorum
Calstock
Coryton
Dunterton
Horrabridge
Kelly
Lamerton
Lewtrenchard
Lifton
Lydford
Marystow
Mary Tavy
Meavy
Milton Abbot
Peter Tavy
Sampford Spiney
Sheepstor
Stowford
Sydenham Damerel
Tavistock
Tavistock Hamlets
Thrushelton
Walkhampton
Whitchurch
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Right, just so you know as much as me............
Fanny's (presumed) sister Ellen was born on 25th June, 1854, in Market Street, Tavistock.
Her father was given as John Ansley, Marine Store Dealer, Market Street, Tavistock (informant).
Her mother was given as Susan Ansley, formerly Smith.
I've had a quick look, in the Library, but I couldn't find any record of a John Ansley married to Susan Smith.
I'm gonna need a bigger hammer................!
'Hat.
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Hi Hat :)
Can we assume in that case that Ann is a stepmother :-\
Or is she another one of those elusive people who was forever changing her name
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Hi, Teaurn,
Unfortunately, I don't think we can assume anything, because I've no other information to back up either theory, yet.
I'm not giving up yet, but with no probable marriage references or census entries for John then I might be a bit stuck.
I'll see how I get on searching for Susan.
'Hat.
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Maybe it's John that keeps changing his name or mainly uses a middle name or something :-\
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The following occupations were commonly practised by Gypsies, but the terms were also used to describe other traders and shopkeepers. A marine store dealer was a dealer in scrap materials.
hawker, licensed hawker, pedlar
basket maker, mat maker, beehive maker, brush maker, chair bottomer, sieve bottomer
tinker, tinman, razor grinder, knife grinder
dealer, general dealer, marine store dealer, wardrobe dealer
peg maker, umbrella mender, chimney sweep, horse dealer
This may confirm your theory - info found on this site:-
http://website.lineone.net/~rtfhs/gypsy.html
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Hi, Teaurn,
I've been down that route with my Odell line, that Fanny married into - some of them were marine store dealers, straw hat makers, chimney sweeps, etc., but I've managed to trace them through the censuses, whereas Fanny and her parents are just being awkward!
I'm inclined to believe that Susan Smith and Ann are the same person, but I've found no likely match anywhere, yet.
'Hat.
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Very frustrating,
Not anything to do with canals is it?
If they were living on a barge and on the move it might have been difficult to track. Are any of the places they've been known been anywhere near canals?
:-\ Just a thought :-*
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Hello Hat
Re the BMD marrriage for John Edward Ansley in Plymouth 1862? One of the bride's has a funny combination of names which includes Fanny, but surname is not Connor. ???
Best Wishes
Morgan
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If we assume that this is the right marriage for John with either bride (maybe both ;D ;D)
Then this would mean that Ellen had a different father which would explain why we cannot find a suitable birth for her :-\
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but surname is not Connor.
Thanks for joining in, Morgan - any help with this one is appreciated.
I think the "Fanny" reference in the alternative Freebmd marriage is a coincidence, as the surname, even though incomplete, looks nothing like the names I've got on the certificates.
Then this would mean that Ellen had a different father which would explain why we cannot find a suitable birth for her :-\
Hi, Teaurn,
We've still got the "Tavistock Ellen" birth (father John Ansley), which fits the '81 census pretty well.
I have now visited the exact plot where Fanny is buried, in Cambridge, and I have given her a severe telling off for being so awkward.
Not that it will do any good...............
;) ;D ;D ;D
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If you've visited the grave or grave site, were there any clues there ?
Headstone ?
Plaques in the church with other names that might ring bells ?
Parish registers ??
Probably statng the obvious ... but ...
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Sadly, there was never a headstone, Lydart.
It was a common grave in the Borough Cemetery, Cambridge, not paid for by the family (times were 'ard!), and contained four or five other "residents", according to the register in the cemetery office.
I think I've found the grave of Fanny's daughter-in-law in a churchyard in Holywell, near Needingworth. I shall try to contact her family, but I haven't decided on the best way to do this, yet.
'Hat.
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you could always buy a tent and sleep there for a while - they might turn up ;D ;D
Failing that speak to the Rector of the Church to see if he knows anything :)
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you could always buy a tent and sleep there for a while - they might turn up ;D ;D
The D-i-L died in February. Might be a long wait................
::) :P ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Roger,
Fanny's birth certificate describes Anne as "late Connor, formerly King"
there's BMD records that may fit:
Anna King marriage 1852 Plymouth 5b 442, one of the grooms is John Connor but I can't check if this is correct.
John Connor deaths:
1853 Plymouth 5b 149
1861 Stoke D 5b 206
1866 Plymouth 5b 206 Age 40
but no trace of Ann's marriage to John Ansley!
Interesting that Ann and Fanny were both listed as occupation Hawker in 1881. Maybe thats why you couldn't find them in earlier census - they were on the road?
Morgan
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Thanks for the interest, Morgan. I've copied your records.
John Connor (d. 1861/1866) could well be a former husband of Anne's - I've been concentrating on the Ansley name, and haven't looked that far, yet!
I've found other relatives, in censuses, described as "on the road", so why all three (Ellen, Fanny, and Anne) should be missing is a bit of a mystery.
I shall keep looking. ;) :)
Rog.
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Rog
have you seen this 1841 transcript. Lots of Ansleys who were thatchers, and a John age 11 which could be yours?
http://www.thefamilyhistorypages.co.uk/1841_census_Kenton.html
P.S. don't forget the 1853 John Connor death
Morgan
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Morgan that looks very promising. Roger will be pleased :)
Unless he has already seen it, But I hadn't and I was looking for ages :P
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Hi, Morgan,
I had found that census, thanks, and I agree it does look promising, especially as John (b. 1830) had Ellen and Fanny siblings.
Unfortunately I haven't been able to find that John in later records, as yet. If you fancy having a look his daughters' birth certificates describe him as carpenter, and journeyman cabinet maker. Fanny's marriage certificate in 1881 shows John as deceased.
Can't stop, I'm under orders to go cut me mother's lawn! :-[ ;) :D
'Hat.
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Rog,
1851 there's a John Anstey b 1829 in Devon with parents John and Charlotte?
same family with Ellen, Frank (Francis), and William.
Morgan
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1851 there's a John Anstey b 1829 in Devon with parents John and Charlotte?
same family with Ellen, Frank (Francis), and William.
Thanks, Morgan. Does it give an occupation for him?
(I don't have a subscription - I use the library for censuses. :-[ :( ;) ;D )
Added: I've been to the library, and all the possible Anstey's that I had time to search were either Thatchers, Farmers, or Dairymen, and of these I couldn't find one that matched with what I know so far.
Frustrating lot, aren't they?!
Thanks for taking the time to look. :) :) :) :)
'Hat.
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Hi,
Their is a John Ansley in Devon
Barnstaple, Baptism 13 jan 1810, Mary Jane, Farther John Ansley, Mother Jane Ansley.
If this Helps. Taken From FreeReg.
Regards.
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Hi, Kovel.
I've had a look for John and Jane, with daughter Mary and son John, but I haven't found anything that looks positive in the censuses.
I've saved your reference in case anything turns up that matches, in future.
Thanks for looking - I appreciate any help!
'Hat. :) :)
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Hello,
If you re still looking for Ellen Susan Ansley and Hermann Kronheimer, I have some info (Hermann and Ellen were my great great grandparents.)
Best regards.
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Hi, Kronheimer.
Long time since I looked at this.............!
My Fanny Ansley is the half sister of Ellen - it's info' on their parents (John Ansley, Susan Smith, Anne King) that would be interesting.
I have several theories, but few facts!
Thank you for offering.
:)
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Hello Roger the Hat,
Thanks for this quick reply. Sorry, I just know that John Ansley is described as a cabinet maker on Ellen and Hermann's wedding certificate (25th May 1972). They went on to have nine children, living in Leicester, Norwich, and finally Oxenhope in Yorkshire. I have names for seven of the nine children , and am a descendant of Nathan, the eldest boy. Would be very inetrested in anything else you find out... thanks again!
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That would make us half cousins, Kronheimer............!
If you don't have it already I have Ellen's birth certificate.
She was born in Market Street, Tavistock, and John is recorded as a Marine Store Dealer.
I haven't been able to find John in any census - I'm guessing he preferred to move around a lot........!
;)
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Half cousins we are, then:)
John appears to have been a man of many trades!
So Ellen was born in Tavistock, and then lived in Crediton.... Before being whisked off by my German great great grandfather who was 13 years her senior! They went to Norwich, then Copley near Halifax, then finally Oxenhome. How exciting that you have Ellen's birth certificate, I would love to see that! I can't offer you much in return... Ellen and Hermann's wedding certificate is the best I can do. I also now have the names and birthdates of Ellen's 9 children, having found the missing two today on Norwich St. Stephen's Tinstaafl transcript.
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Hi Roger
My gran (HAYNES) and her mother (O'DELL) are buried in Holywell churchyard - yes I'm the O'Dell part of the family!!
I would love to compare family trees
Hope to speak soon
Paul Haynes
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Bringing this thread up-to-date...
I thought it may be a good time to update this thread with the information that has since been uncovered for the other Ansley / King descendants on here.
Fanny and Ann are still missing in various census years, as is John Ansley.
Prison records for John Ansley in Cornwall have been found with mention of his "wife" Susan. They state he was born in Lambeth. They had daughter Ellen and also a son Henry who died in childhood.
Baptism and marriage records have been found in Lambeth that *may* be John, plus an 1841 census return. The current theory is that John was already married prior to meeting Susan Smith and Ann King and never married either of them as no marriage record has ever been uncovered...
Which didn't seem to be any sort of impediment to Ann King or her parents...
Ann possibly married in Plymouth to a Royal Marine, having 2 children who both died in infancy. She then definitely married John Connor and had children Dinah and Susan. Dinah, we think, married in Colchester, had a daughter in Soham, Cambridgeshire, then was living in Ipswich in 1871. Cannot be found on any subsequent census. Susan ended up in Cambridge, married name Kelley. Ann King died in Cambridge in 1909.
Ann's parents were Abraham King and Dinah or Diana Veal m. 1822, Plymouth. Ann was baptised in 1824 in Plymouth. Siblings Eliza Jane (died in childhood) Mary, Joseph (died in infancy) and Sarah were all baptised in Plymouth. Abraham was in the Royal Marines. In 1834 Dinah Veal married James Croker in Plymouth. Abraham was still alive. Dinah styled herself as a spinster. She had 3 sons with James in the UK and then they emigrated to Australia in 1841.
I have DNA tested, as has my mum and Hat (the OP) and between us we have 25+ DNA matches we can trace back to Dinah Veal who live in Australia, including to a Mary Ann Croker who we think may actually be Mary King. We have access to the DNA matches of a descendant of Susan Connor and he also matches many of the Dinah Veal descendants in Australia.
In 1862 a Sarah Gegg emigrated to Australia with her deposit paid by Dinah Veal. She was a widow with 4 children whose marriage certificate shows her maiden name was King, father Abraham, a sailor. We also have DNA matches to her descendants and believe she is the daughter of Abraham and Dinah.
Abraham King was bapt 1798 in Silverton, Devon son of Thomas King and Sarah Pepperell who had married in 1776 in Silverton. He died in 1861, Royal Marine pension records have been found for him. He appears to have married again in the 1840s pretending to be a widower. So far I have found only 1 DNA match to Abraham's siblings, but I persevere!
Dinah was bapt 1803 in Widecombe in the Moor, Devon to George Veal and Joana Coaker. My mum has DNA matches to the siblings of Joana Coaker. Joana's mother was Mary Cleave and mum also has DNA matches to Mary's siblings.
I'm typing this on my phone which is why some of it is a bit vague as I'm doing it from memory!
And so the quest continues!
Karen