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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: trot30 on Friday 05 March 10 20:48 GMT (UK)

Title: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
Post by: trot30 on Friday 05 March 10 20:48 GMT (UK)
Can anyone help me

Im trying to find Robert Edwards the fuller. he had 7 sons. Edwards was the first born 1768, he later moved to cefnddwysarn near Bala (i think)

next was Robert born 1775 died 1863.

another son moved to blaenau ffestiniog.

Can anyone fill the gaps in for me please
Title: Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
Post by: Rol on Saturday 06 March 10 16:15 GMT (UK)


The tree refers of course to the owners,  but you might still like to take a look at the Powell/Salusbury of Bryn y Barcut pedigree that W. Bezant Lowe printed on pp.364-5 of vol 2 of his Heart of Northern Wales (HNW2),  published at Llanfairfechan in 1927.  He also gives a brief description there of the house.  Perhaps you have already seen it.

Bezant Lowe refers to Bryn y Barcut as being in Llangernyw.  But to judge by the 1880 OS map shown on the Old Maps site (if one follows the dotted boundary lines),  I think that both Bryn y Barcut and Pandy Bryn y Barcut were just inside the parish of Llanfair Talhaearn (on the east bank of the river).  It is true that they were much closer to Llangernyw church,  and the occupiers probably often went there in preference to Llanfair TH.*  Perhaps someone with better local knowledge than mine can confirm or correct this point.

A deed in the Eriviat collection at the NLW does rather seem to confirm it:

Quote
287.

1770, March 13

1. Elizabeth Salusbury of Bryn y Barcutt, co. Denb. (now of Holywell, co. Flint), spinster

2. John Humphreys of Ruthin, co. Denb., gent.

LEASE for 1 year of a capital m. called Bryn y Barcutt and a m. and fulling mill in p. Llanfair Talhaiarn, Bryn y Ta….e, p. Gwytherin, and Hendre, p. Llansanan, all in co. Denb.

The scheduler here was probably intending to communicate the following meaning in respect of parish locations,  at least as it seems to me:

Quote
LEASE for 1 year of:

(1)  a capital m[essuage] called Bryn y Barcutt and a m[essuage] and fulling mill in [the parish of] Llanfair Talhaiarn;

(2)  Bryn y Ta….e  [in the parish of] Gwytherin;  and

(3)  Hendre [in the parish of] Llansan[n]an;

all in [the] co[unty of] Denb[igh].

The Elizabeth Salusbury who was conveying the property in 1770 is doubtless the heiress who married Robert Jocelyn RN at Bath six years later,  as recorded by Bezant Lowe,  probably relying on this from among the extracts he printed on pp.506-11 of HNW2 from the -- apparently now lost -- diary of Robert Wynne of Garthewin (with its appreciative appended comment!):

Quote
[1776]  Nov. 13.  This day was married at Bath,  Miss Salusbury of Bryn-y-barcut to Mr Jocelyn,  an officer in the Navy.  She is a very fine woman.

Elizabeth's own daughter Caroline became an heiress in her turn and married one of the Ffoulkeses of Eriviat.  That presumably accounts for the 1770 Bryn y Barcut deed ending up in the Eriviat collection at the NLW.  In fact it is surprising that there are not more deeds there for the same reason.  It looks as though some must be elsewhere or missing -- which is a pity,  because they could provide a string of documents showing tenants' names,  thereby revealing for how long Robert Edwards's family rented the fulling mill.  Still,  the 1770 deed could merit a glance,  if the opportunity arises to see it.

The other thought I had is that Elizabeth's father John Salusbury of Bryn y Barcut (d.1768),  an attorney-at-law,  was notoriously litigious;  so it is possible that at some point he had the need to call on one or more of his tenants to give evidence as Chancery deponents -- which would have had the useful consequence of a witness having to state his/her age.  I seem to recall that Cledwyn Fychan,  then of the NLW,  wrote an article partly about Salusbury's law suits some years ago -- perhaps in the NLWJ or in the Denbighshire Historical Society's journal.  That could no doubt be easily checked.


Rol



*  [ADDED 08.03.10]  I have now located the article by Cledwyn Fychan mentioned in the last para of this post (for details of which see my Reply 7 below),  and I see that he held a similar opinion about the parish boundary:

Quote
Er mai ym mhlwyf Llanfair Talhaearn y saif Bryn-barcud,  tua Llangernyw y mae'r dyfna naturiol oddi yno,  a thuag yno y dylid edrych gyntaf,  efallai  [NLWJ 1981, p.189]





Title: Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
Post by: LeeW on Sunday 07 March 10 21:26 GMT (UK)
Headstone in Llangernyw (Robert died in 1861 not 1863):



Title: Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
Post by: trot30 on Sunday 07 March 10 22:07 GMT (UK)
Great ...THanks for that. ... do you know of any of his brothers or sisters? or maybe his fathers, also a robert edwards of same address any info ?? 1737-1834
Title: Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
Post by: Indigogirl on Sunday 07 March 10 22:53 GMT (UK)
Can you translate what is on the headstone please?

I'm following with great interest

Thx
Title: Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
Post by: trot30 on Sunday 07 March 10 23:15 GMT (UK)
Robert Edwards

Pandy Bryn Barcut

yr hwn a gladdwyd - who was buried

Tachwedd 30 - November 30th 1861 86 years old

 

Also his wife Anne

 yr hon a gladdwyd - who was buried

Ebrill 14 - April 14 1822

45 years old

 

Also Ellen his second wife 

yr hon a gladdwyd - who was buried

Ionawr 29 - January 29 1863

79 years old

 

well goodbye to favourite _______? 

-----------------------------------------------------------

i cant make out what the last word is.
Title: Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
Post by: Indigogirl on Sunday 07 March 10 23:27 GMT (UK)
Thanks for the translation.

Title: Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
Post by: Rol on Monday 08 March 10 04:11 GMT (UK)


Excellent to have that gravestone image up -- Lee's ever-growing database of MI photos is certainly a great resource to have available via the web.

OK,  I have now had a chance to unearth the article by Cledwyn Fychan (see foot of Reply 1).  It was in the National Library of Wales Journal,  Vol. xxii, No.2,  Winter 1981,  pp.187-213.  It concerned the literary interests and family connections of three local men.  It is a fascinating piece,  containing the fruit of very thorough genealogical research and deep local knowledge (though NB it is written in yr iaith nefoedd).

One of the three men concerned did indeed live at Bryn y Barcut,  but he was the father of the John Salusbury mentioned in my earlier post,  i.e. Salusbury Powell (d.1734).  I think he was the one who had an especially litigious streak.  His wife Elizabeth's mother was a Wynne of Garthewin,  and the particular lawsuit mentioned in the article concerned the 1728 will of Margaret Wynne,  aunt both to Powell's wife and to her first cousin Robert Wynne of Garthewin,  Chancellor of the Diocese of St Asaph.

Many papers about this chancery suit survive in the Garthewin collection at Bangor University Library's MSS Dept -- much more accessible than the main court archives at TNA,  for anyone living in North Wales.  The refs. cited in the article are Garthewin Nos. 1213,  1277 and 1294;  but there may well be other relevant documents in the collection too.  Fortunately for later researchers (though not for the fortunes of the litigants),  the case reached the stage of taking local depositions by commission,  and on p.189 Cledwyn Fychan cites a sentence from the testimony of one of the maids at Bryn y Barcut as evidence of her master's reputation:

Quote
Margarett Wynne had a great esteem for the def't Eliz'th the wife of Salusbury Powell and she was sorry for the low condition her sd husband [Salusbury Powell] had brought her to by his lawsuits and crossness.

The Bryn y Barcut people were evidently involved in quite a number of 18th c. lawsuits,  so if the Edwards family were tenants of the Pandy for a good length of time,  it would certainly be worth seeing whether any of them were called upon to make depositions.


Rol


Title: Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
Post by: trot30 on Wednesday 10 March 10 16:49 GMT (UK)
Rol
How or where would i find that info?

i know the definetly lived there, and cant for the life of me find the other 5 of the 7 children he had,   the gravestone is one of the children im looking for, Edward was his brother (my great not sure now many times grandfather ) im trying to find his brothers and sisters. can you help? please..

also any info about robert edwards (their father) 1737ish died aged 97 married ann ellis daughter of a yeoman butcher would be of massive help to me.
Title: Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
Post by: Rol on Wednesday 10 March 10 21:48 GMT (UK)


Hi Trot,

Quote
Rol
How or where would i find that info?

To see the National Library of Wales Journal article,  I think you would need to visit a library that has a physical copy -- the Welsh Journals Online project (part sponsored by the NLW) have the NLWJ on their planned digitisation list but they seem to be making only slow progress;  and there does not appear to be even partial availability via Google Books.  So a free read on the internet would only be a possibility if you have sponsored access to a subscription service (e.g. one of those the NLW lets you use if you have a library card).  Worth ringing your nearest main county reference library to ask;  or you could have a photocopy made and sent to you,  to save the journey.  In any event,  although Cledwyn Fychan's piece is very interesting background material,  it will give you nothing of direct relevance to the family renting Pandy Bryn y Barcut,  beyond the key clue and references about the Chancery depositions (as already posted).

To see the original witness depositions in the Garthewin papers you would realistically need to make the trip to Bangor and look through the documents in person.  The staff are very helpful there (anyway certainly were when Tomos Roberts was in charge),  but it would probably be pushing your luck to ask them to scan through on your behalf looking for references to the Pandy tenants;  and ordering full copy sets would be quite a gamble -- and probably a pretty expensive one.

Here are a couple of web-links:

1.  The visitor info screen for Bangor University Library's Archives Dept. --
http://www.bangor.ac.uk/archives/visitor.php.en?menu=2&catid=3587&subid=0

2.  Description of the Garthewin collection on the Archives Wales site -- http://www.archiveswales.org.uk/anw/get_collection.php?coll_id=10531&inst_id=39&term=Garthewin  [If this later becomes a dead temporary search address,  you should get to the same place by using their main search screen ( http://www.archiveswales.org.uk/anw/advanced_search.php ) and tapping Garthewin into the search line and selecting Bangor University from the "repository" drop-down menu.]

If I were you I would not want to make a special one-purpose trip to Bangor to try my luck with the thrills,  spills and "local colour" that might turn up in a law suit,  unless I was fairly confident that the family really were living at or very near Pandy Bryn y Barcut prior to the last quarter of the 18th c.  (Of course,  if you have a reason for being at Bangor anyway,  no harm in giving it a whirl "blind" . . . ).

From your posts to date I am not quite sure what the nature and reliability is of the very earliest evidence you possess to connect the Edwardses with the fulling mill in the 1700s.  I know you are hoping someone on RootsChat can help by hunting out some PR entries for you,  presumably events at either Llangerniw or Llanfair Talhaearn (sorry -- no easy access to those CFHS transcripts myself);  but I suspect that it would assist such potential helpers if you could be a bit more specific about the oldest sources you have already found.


Rol


Title: Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
Post by: trot30 on Wednesday 10 March 10 23:50 GMT (UK)
i have some documents and books in my collection that have been passed down through the generations and all referals date back to Pandy Bryn y Barcyt. (Pandy Bryn y Barcut is not the same place as Bryn y Barcut they are two different houses) not far from each other.

The family bible also dates back to there as Edward 1768 was my great x? grandfather (cant remember how many times at the moment) and its his bible we have with his children in but no mention of brothers/sisters in there.

We have also been to the church in Llangernyw looking through the parish records and found them there. We also spoke to a local historian that knew that they were there, but sadly he died before we got to see his collection of info.

The Robert Edwards gravestone is Edward 's son that stayed in the house, all the other children went to work in other Pandy's around (as they went to help out the rest of the family ) but i dont know where they went,  and i dont know where Robert (the father went from Pandy Bryn y barcut

Title: Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
Post by: Rol on Thursday 11 March 10 03:06 GMT (UK)


Quote
i have some documents and books in my collection that have been passed down through the generations and all referals date back to Pandy Bryn y Barcyt ... The family bible also dates back to there as Edward 1768 was my great x? grandfather ... and its his bible we have with his children in ...

You are very fortunate in still having those old papers,  Trot -- so many families these days have nothing like that to guide them when they embark on research.

Quote
We have also been to the church in Llangernyw looking through the parish records and found them there

That sounds like good firm evidence on which to build.  I take it that the parish records concerned were baptisms,  marriages and burials (though correct me if I have that wrong or incomplete).

I quite understand that you will not wish to post excessive detail here.  But I am sure that it would help others to help you if you could share the wording of the earliest few of those PR entries you noted down,  so people can see the naming styles used (quasi-patronymics?) and the place-names and occupations mentioned (if any) in the registers.  It all helps set the context,  and avoids others fearing that they may be expending their time and effort re-inventing what you already know.  And the same point applies to the information contained in those first entries in the family bible and the oldest of the other documents you have.

A great pity about that local historian who knew about the Edwards family's links to the pandy,  and died before he could pass on fuller information.  It is a very sad thing if that sort of knowledge goes to the grave with someone.  I suppose that later on you did try and see if the surviving children or other relatives could tell you whether any of his notes survived the proverbial "executors' bonfire"(?)

Quote
Pandy Bryn y Barcut is not the same place as Bryn y Barcut they are two different houses) not far from each other.

Don't worry,  I doubt that anyone has been under any misapprehension about that.  I think the point of keeping tabs on both houses is that they were in close proximity and from time immemorial in common ownership (see the deed cited in Reply 1).  So if an old document about Bryn y Barcut can be traced,  there is a fighting chance that it might also shed some light on the pandy and its occupiers.


Rol


Title: Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
Post by: trot30 on Thursday 11 March 10 23:10 GMT (UK)
1851 census township of Petrual page 7 Places Robert Edwards 1775- in Pandy at the time 

Wps now ammended date!!
Title: Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
Post by: Indigogirl on Friday 12 March 10 00:04 GMT (UK)
Can you tell me which source you are using for the last record pls?

I have tried a couple of websites but haven't been able to find the record of Robert Edwards b 1737 in 1851 Wales cen
Title: Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
Post by: hiraeth on Sunday 21 March 10 05:01 GMT (UK)
Hi Indigogirl

The reference is HO107/2507/194/7
Pandy, Llanfair Talhaiarn, Denbighshire
Robert Edwards, Head, 76, Fuller & Farmer of 3 acres
Elinor Edwards, Wife, 72
John Edwards, 25, Son, Fuller
Jane Edwards, Dau, 42
Margaret Evans, Gradn Dau, 13
All born Llanfair TH
Title: Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
Post by: Indigogirl on Sunday 21 March 10 09:14 GMT (UK)

Thanks for those details hiraeth

Indigogirl
Title: Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
Post by: stanleyrs on Wednesday 18 January 12 14:40 GMT (UK)


  I AM A DECENDANT  OF THE EDW ARDS OF PANDY BRYN BARCUT

  AND INTERSTED IN YOUR INTREST,.  STANLEYRS
Title: Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
Post by: stanleyrs on Wednesday 18 January 12 16:43 GMT (UK)



  I Spent lots of time at Pandy Bryn Barcut with my Grandfather andGrandMother,

   iwould like any inf. on the Edwards andthe HaTTons,

    S Hatton. :)
Title: Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
Post by: stanleyrs on Wednesday 18 January 12 16:51 GMT (UK)
Quote from: stanleyrs on Wednesday 18 January 12 16:43 GMT (UK)



 I Spent lots of time at Pandy Bryn Barcut with my Grandfather andGrandMother,

 iwould like any inf. on the Edwards andthe HaTTons,

 S Hatton. :)
Title: Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
Post by: Indigogirl on Thursday 19 January 12 23:08 GMT (UK)
Hello Stanleyrs

Pleased to hear from you.

Which particular Edwards at Pandy Bryn Barcut are you descended from?

Indigogirl
Title: Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
Post by: stanleyrs on Saturday 21 January 12 11:26 GMT (UK)

  HI IMDIGOGIRL,

  My father was Samuel Hatton son of Thomos Gomer Hatton,

  Iamtrying to find when Peter Edwards [Pedyr Dulas]died the ex. date

  he was buried at LLanddulas church ST Cynfyd but no grave stone.

  Ihave a pic.of him i think with my father on his knee ,Born 1818 pic 1903/o4.
Title: Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
Post by: stanleyrs on Monday 23 January 12 15:05 GMT (UK)

 hi indigogirl ,my father s hatton was born in pandy bryn barcut in 1901

  Istayed with my grsnd parents many times his name THOMOS Gomer Hatton,

  AREyou a member of the familey [ stanleyrs]
Title: Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
Post by: kilnerg on Tuesday 03 April 18 21:01 BST (UK)
Robert Edwards of Pandy Brym-y-Barcut b 1776 was my G3 grandfather. I am descended through his son Gomer (1827).
Title: Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
Post by: Indigogirl on Tuesday 03 April 18 22:21 BST (UK)
Hi

My link is a generation further back. Robert Edwards b1737 of Pandy Bryn Barcut but then through Edward Edwards b 1768 (brother of Robert 1776- I have 1775 ?) and his son Robert Edwards (Dr)1795

So many Roberts....
Title: Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
Post by: kilnerg on Wednesday 04 April 18 13:54 BST (UK)
Stanleyrs

How are the Hattons and Edwards related? The name crops up in my history.
Title: Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
Post by: Indigogirl on Wednesday 04 April 18 20:55 BST (UK)
Hi kilnerg

Thomas G Hatton's (b 1871) mother was Eleanor/Ellen Joslin Edwards.
Ellen's father was Gomer Joslin Edwards
Gomer's father was Robert Edwards b 1775
Robert's father was Robert Edwards 1737 who lived at Pandy bryn y barcut. He is my 5ggfather

Or put a bit more simply Gomer's daughter Ellen married a Hatton!
Title: Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
Post by: kilnerg on Wednesday 04 April 18 22:50 BST (UK)
Gomer is my great great grandfather. His son Robert was my great grandfather, and his daughter Jemima, my grandmother.

My parents knew Tom Hatton and used to visit Pandy. I remember being taken in the early 1950's to visit the Hattons who farmed nr Llanwrst (I think).