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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Caernarvonshire => Wales => Caernarvonshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: jomiskelly on Saturday 13 March 10 05:00 GMT (UK)
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Am trying to trace John Williams and his parents, bn abt 1821 Roe Wen, Caerhun, Caernarvonshire. He lived with his family in Llandudno on the Orme. I have him from 1865 onwards but want to trace him prior to this in order to find more info on him his first wife and his parentage etc. He was a gardener and one time publican and may have been a shoemaker in his early days. He married Martha ELLIOTT of Daventry in 1865 and had 8 children (2 of whom died young)
John was a widower when he married Martha according to their marriage cert. and his father was noted as Thomas WILLIAMS, Shoemaker whom I believe died in testate in 1857 in Llandudno.
John and Martha lived at the Old telegraph House on the Orme, Llandudno and were burried in St. Tudno's churchyard
Their children were
Martha bn 1866 and married Thomas Bridge MORRIS
Emma bn 1866 and may have died the same year
Mary Alice bn 1868 who was a nurse and died a spinster in 1931
Eleanor Louisa bn 1869 who married Samuel EDWARDS
Richard Thomas bn 1871 who married Emily MORRALL
John Elliott bn 1873 and died 1874
William Elliot bn 1877 and married Susannah OWEN
Emma Jane bn 1879 who died a spinster in 1953
Any help would be most welcome
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Hi,
Found a John Williams on FamilySeach.org christened on 4 July 1819 at Caerhun - parents Thomas Williams and Jane - could this be your man?
Will check the early censuses to see if there is any other trace.
Alan
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Hello Tall Al,
Your ancestors were of interest as I have ancestors from Llandudno and my grandparents are buried in St Tudno's too. I know the Old Telegraph House that you refer to. I better stop reminiscing about Llandudno or I'll be here all day!
The Parish Registers for Caerhun (another lovely place) are on Freereg.
http://www.freereg.org.uk
I looked for a John Williams there and found quite a few entries for baptisms of this name in that period. They have the following:
2x baptisms for John Williams in 1817.
1 baptism for john Williams in 1818.
1 baptism for John Williams in 1819.
1 baptism for John Williams in 1824.
There are more in other years but a bit further away from 1821.
The father's name of Thomas Williams narrows the search down a bit and the ones with Thomas as their father are:
John Williams, baptised 02/02/1817 Caerhun Parish Church, son of Thomas Williams and Emma.
John Williams baptised 04/07/1819, son of Thomas Williams and Jane.
I cannot seem to find any siblings for either of them.
The marriage could not be found for either couple but it doesn't look as if the registers for Caerhun are on Freereg.
Can anyone find him on the 1841 to see if he is married then?
Since the name of John Williams is so common in North Wales, you may be in difficulty finding him and his first marriage.
Jo.
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Thank you Alan and Jo,
I have looked at freereg before but didn't feel any were my John due to dates. The census entries from 1871 onwards would suggest John was born 1821 (and his death cert). However as his second wife Martha, was getting on for 20 years his junior, may be he was economical with the truth on their meeting and maintained the pretence re his age. If this was the case, I might favour the Thomas and Emma parentage. It looks as though John and Martha followed traditional naming rules for their children (ie Child #1 named after Martha and her mother also Martha, first son was named Richard Thomas, Martha and John's fathers #2 son was John etc.) If this was the case Emma would be a likely possibility especially as they repeated it when Emma #1 died. A lot of supposition though. I'd really like to track them down in census returns etc prior to 1865, with a degree of certainty.
As for familysearch result, I have considered this too, though there are no offspring named Jane only Emma Jane. This of course, means nothing which is why I am stuck. There is nothing solid to follow within the census returns to lead me one way or another.
I have looked at the census returns of 1841 - 1861 for both Thomas and John on numerous occasions and can't really pin them down. I have even looked for John in Daventry, being son of a shoemaker and possibly one himself, with Martha coming from there but the 1861 census may be too early for this as he married Martha in 1865.
Not really sure where to go from here.
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Hi,
Thanks for the additional details - it gets very difficult I know from experience!
I'm not sure if this helps or not but -
Assuming John was the son of Thomas and Emma I have found an Emma Williams (born Caerhun in 1776) in the 1841 and 1851 censuses - but regretfully no trace of husband Thomas at the addresses.
To confuse matters there is a Thomas Williams - age 65 at High Street, Bangor on his own - could this be a shop - says he is "Ind" - does this means Independent as a possible Shoemaker?
In 1841 census Emma (age 65) was at Chapel street Tro y dre, Llanwrst, Denbighshire with a Mary Williams age 25 and John Williams age 20 - says they were not born in the county. (Llanwrst District 17, Page 9).
In 1871 at Plough Street, Llanwrst - Mary Pritchard age 24 - unmarried is living with her mother Mary Williams (also unmarried) age 57 - they are dressmakers and Mary Williams was born at Roe Wen! Could Mary Williams be John's sister?
In 1851 Emma age 76 was at Llanwrst (can't read the address) with daughter Mary age 35 (born in Caerhun) unmarried and Granddaughter Mary Pritchard age 4 (born in Llanwrst). (LLanwrst District 7j Page 15)
Could this be any connection?
Alan
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Hello jomiskelly,
I wouldn't be too worried about getting the year of birth for John Williams exact at 1821. I have found that the year of birth can vary and am never sure how accurately they knew their ages in those days.
I think you can rule out Thomas Williams and Jane as parents. They seem to be on the 1841 census at Caerhun, Thomas a farmer. Reference HO107/1393/1 Page 5. It should be borne in mind that Thomas Williams is such a common name in thse parts you cannot be 100% sure it is the same one.
I favoured Thomas and Emma for the same reasons as you did.
I think you will be lucky to find them for sure in the census returns for 1841 and 1851. Such common names that you couldn't be 100% certain you have the right ones.
Any other clues, Wills and such like? Have you looked for these? What about local history books, trade directories etc for Llandudno? I know they have trade directories going back for many years for the town and surrounding areas.
Have you tried asking for information on people who lived on the Great Orme? There is quite a bit written on the history, including residents. A site called Llandudno Local has the facility to post questions on local matters.
Jo
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Thnks very much both,
Your help is most welcome. I have seen most of these census returns on which you comment but as you say such an awful name to be trying to trace. I have a "cousin" in llandudno (not far from the Old Telegraph House) who is searching the churchyard for Thomas. We know john is there and roughly where but she hasn't actually found the stone. We hope that this might lead to more info though we do have a transcription of john's headstone.
I have used llandudno local too, thanks and also have a copy of Llandudno before the hotels which has other branches therein (Hugh Jones of Adwy Rhydd). I will perhaps try a Llandudno Local posting!
Again thank you both for your input. Much appreciated
Jo
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Hello jomiskelly
ref 1861 RG9/Piece4359/Folio81/Page41
Have you considered this John Williams, wid., occ gardener b c1822 Caerhun?
He is lodging at 16 Bronhyfryd, Llandudno. Unfortunately his relationship to Head of Household looks like it has been written over at least once.
Heather
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Dear Heather,
Thank you very much for your suggestion and it is an entry that I considered as being my John but I can't for the life of me now recall why I had suddenly started to doubt it. I do still have it listed as him in my tree etc.
I had wondered if his relationship was boarder and presumed the niece was the householder's niece. You have enlightened me re the dwelling though, thanks I have struggled on numerous occasions trying to figure the name.
many thanks
Jo
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Hi Jo
I looked back to 1851 for Mary Roberts the neice. She is with her parents a Peter & Mary Roberts (probably nee Jones - there is a 1846 marriage at St. Tudno) so no help there I'm afraid.
Do you have any idea how your man ended up marrying in Daventry of all places! I was wondering if he worked as a gardener for the Mostyn Family. It might be worth checking to see if they had interests in the area of Daventry?
Heather
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No, I'm afraid I don't know the connection with Daventry. The only vague connection I can make is that John's father was noted as a shoemaker on John's marriage cert to martha ELLIOTT. I believe His father had died by this time and I wonder if John dabbled in the shoemaking business hence a Northamptonshire connection.
The reason for wondering if John dabbled in shoemaking was a bond I found at the Welsh National Library, for a John Williams when a Thomas Williams died intestate in 1857, John being the son. Thomas was a shoemaker but it made note that John was too. I pretty sure that they are the characters from my tree. I have Thomas' death cert but the informant is seemingly unrelated. I get the impression that John was a loner. Almost as though he had severed most connection prior to 1865. That's about all really. Real pity they didn't have unusual names!! I try the Mostyn idea, thanks
Thanks for checking out Mary Roberts for me. Most kind. I'm having another go at the census in 1851 for John!!! I reckon the more I try, then more likely I'll find him. Faliable logic!
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Hello again,
I am trying to find Thomas and John Williams on the 1851 for a start. Assuming Thomas is in Llandudno, it shouldn't be too difficult (in theory) as there were so few people there then. Do you have the address of Thomas from his death certificate?
The entry for John as spotted by Heather appears to be a distinct possibilty. The census shows that he is a widower which makes it more likely to be him.
In view of the fact that there was a small population in Llandudno in those days, I am sure there must be something somewhere. Question is where?
There is a record of burials in St Tudno's Church and I think you might obtain details either from Conwy Council, or from the churchwarden. Some of the memorials have perished, others were removed on safety grounds. You might not find what you are looking for because of this.
I should have thought that shoemaking would have been the connection to Daventry, could be he went there for better work than was available in his local area. Could he have served an apprenticeship there?
Jo
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Hi jomiskelly
Do you have Martha Elliot on the 1861 census at Crayke Yorkshire? ref RG9/3630/9/11.
If the correct Martha, she is working as Cook in the household of the Ven. Edward Churton, Archdeacon of Cleveland/Rector of Crayke(1800-1874). More info about his accomplishments at http://www.hymntime.com/tch/bio/c/h/churton_e.htm
Perhaps the Churtons visited the newly built resort of Llandudno in the mid 1860s and that is how John Williams & Martha Elliott came to meet. Was it a church wedding, civil or ?
Heather
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Dear Jo and Heather,
Thanks for your input.
Jo - in response:
Thomas, if it is the right chap (though Very few Thomas Williams, shoemaker and this one has a son John) died 3 Apr 1857 Old Road, Llandudno. The informant was John HUGHES of Bryncryno? Not sure of the place here. I don't know of a John HUGHES for this clan
I have reconsidered AGAIN, the 1861 census for John and REALLY can't recall why I started to doubt it being the right chap. It fits too well.
I am hoping that the detail of John having been a sometime shoemaker is not a red herring. The ONLY place which notes his occupation as anything other than a gardener (or publican as well on the 1881 census) is this bond in 1857 re his father dying intestate.
I am hoping my "cousin" may just find something up at St. Tudnos in the better weather!
Heather - in response:
Yes that is the same Martha but I hadn't realised her employer was a noteworthy person. Why she worked there, I don't know but it may have been a connection of her father's who was a butler in Badby, Northants.
John WILLIAMS and Martha's wedding was in Daventry in the parish church.
I am working my way through census checks for John and his possible first wife by cross referencing with the BMD. Tedious but has to be done. Ha ha ha!
Will carry on with that avenue first and then start the others. MNAY thanks again both for your hints and suggestions. MOST welcome
Regards
Jo
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Hi Jo
Please come back and post if/when you learn more!
Heather
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Yes of course, Thank you for ALL your help. Do I take it you're in Canada? It's too early for England!
Jo
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Yes of course, Thank you for ALL your help. Do I take it you're in Canada? It's too early for England!
Jo
Vancouver :)
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Very nice too, so I'm told. Hope to post again soon
Cheers
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Hello jomiskelly,
I have done a street search of Llandudno in the 1851 census. There is no sign of Thomas Williams that I could see.
One entry that did strike me was the following:
Llandudno, HO107/2519 Page 27. Pen y Fron number 3
John Williams head, widower, aged 43, assistant overseer to farmer, born Llanelian.
Mary Williams, daug, aged 12, born Llandudno.
Jane Williams, daug, aged 10, born Llandudno.
Ann Griffiths, aged 24, servant, born Denb, Llandrillo.
I am fairly sure that Pen y Fron is on the lower slopes of the Great Orme.
I am not sure of this but it is worth bearing in mind. The place of birth is the problem.
Re the grave(s) those in St Tudno's in the old cemetery are few now and most are illegible. I gave up looking for my ancestors who are buried there. Best to get the details. sttudnos(at)llandudno-parish.org.uk
St Tudno's has a very good website if you haven't seen it http://www.llandudno-parish.org.uk/sttudno.html
Jo
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I forgot to ask you if you know the pub he had in view of the entry on the 1881 census?
Jo
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Hi Jo,
I've seen that 1851 entry but not convinced. John seemed to be very good at listing his place of birth in subsequent years as Roewen or Caerhun so can't figure why he'd list it differently. Also, I have no evidence of any kids by his first marriage. Not to say there weren't any, of course.
As for the pub, I have as yet to find which it may have been. I gather the Old Telegraph House became the Summit Hotel but this was after the Williams family left. It was in Williams' ownership by 1871 till sometime between 1901 and 1911.
Thanks for your suggestion re the churchyard etc though, cheers
Jo
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Hello jomiskelly,
With hindsight, I agree that the John Williams in that census is very likely not your ancestor.
The Summit Hotel was built from the Old Telegraph House as you say. It is covered on the Great Orme web site http://www.greatorme.org.uk/canolfan.html
There are some good photos on this and a brief history too.
There is a very good photo of the old Summit Hotel on Llandudno Local, section of Old Pictures: The Great Orme. This looks to have been taken in the 1920s, possibly earlier.
I should think you would find out more on the pub by going through the trade directories, or street directories. They keep loads of these in Llandudno Library. Not a bad section on local history there. They have some books on the Great Orme alone and these go into much detail.
The other possibilty is the local newspapers, obituaries etc. They keep these going way back on microfilm in Llandudno Library too.
My great grandmother used to stay in the Summit Hotel for a fortnight every year. She lived in the town of Llandudno and reckoned the air at the top of the Orme was better and did her good!
Jo
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Thank you for the link Jo - the mention of wind brought me a big smile ;D
My parents lived in Craig y Don for many years and I don't think a day went by in the five years I lived there with them that the ****** wind did NOT blow ;D Many a winter night the surf could be heard pounding the beach from streets away and the (very sturdy) old house would shudder as if punched. Almost like being in a ship at sea ;D The trippers loved the fresh air when they came from the cities - it must have been heavenly in the days of coal fires to get away from the smog at home. But my it did get a little wearing if you lived there full time!
Heather
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Hello Heather,
This is a bit off message, so to speak but I had to say that you didn't know what wind was, you had to have lived on the West Shore to know that ;D!!
I lived on the West Shore for 6 years and on some days, couldn't open the front door. Walking anywhere was impossible. I was always worried that we would lose the roof and they a neighbour told me that the place next door had lost all the roof and a number of others in the vicinity.
The plus to it were the beautiful sun sets but never again.
My mother was born and bred in Llandudno and she told me that in her childhood days, she could lean on the wind on her way to school. She also remembered the two seas (North and West shores) meeting along Gloddaeth Ave.
Jo
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Thanks for your thoughts, Jo. Much appreciated. I'm afraid that's really why I am stuck as I live about as far away as it is possible to be! This is why I am reliant upon the internet and locals.
As mentioned previously, a distant "cousin" (of this branch) lives round the corner from the Orme so to speak but is a busy person. I might try writng to libraries or post on Llandudno Local.
Thanks again
Jo
Ps, Growing up in Lincolnshire with the winds scudding across hedgeless fields you got to lean on the wind too!!
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Hello Jo,
The question on the pub John Williams ran might be answered by something I have found which says that the Old Telegraph House was once "The Telegraph Inn". From this, they used to relay messages between Holyhead and Liverpool.
It might be something to research to establish if this was the pub he refers to.
Jo
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Yes, I'd wondered about that, cheers
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Hi folk,
Just thought that I'd update this thread after many months of spasmodic research and great input from Llandudno Local forum members to whom I owe a great deal as well as yourselves.
I now believe John WILLIAMS to be the same as that belonging to Thomas and Emma, noted in the Caerhun Parish Baptisms Register for John. A recent register look up discovered that Thomas was in fact a shoemaker and they were from Rowen. This now makes John born in 1817 NOT 1821 as previously thought. There is also a daughter Mary baptised in 1814
It would seem that Thomas may well have died prior to 1841 as an Emma WILLIAMS with a daughter Mary and son John were living in Llarwst not born of the parish, no sign of Thomas. A census return found earlier in the thread and again, as noted earlier were in fact at Scotland St. Llanrst 1851, without John but with Emma's granddaughter Mary PRITCHARD (daughter of Mary WILLIAMS as noted in the 1871 census). Emma, in 1851 is noted as a widow. I still have not found John in 1851 and still don't know how he and his second wife Martha (ELLIOTT) met or where. This means the will of Thomas WILLIAMS shoemaker who died in 1858 is not likely to be mine.
Re the birth date of John WILLIAMS, it has come to light in the last day or two that his remembrance card originally showed his age at death as 69 years and therefore born about 1817 but had been changed by person/ persons unknown, (when also unknown) to anyone living, to 65 making his birth abt 1822 (Died 23 Mar 1887). I wonder if having been widowed prior to 1861 and then meeting the 20 years younger Martha ELLIOTT that he reduced the age gap to 15 years which was maintained for the remainder of his days on census returns etc - maybe hence the correction.
I have decided John WILLIAMS widower in 1861 at Bronhyfdd, is mine. I still don't recall why I questioned it to such a point, but there you go.
John WILLIAMS and wife Martha were at Telegraph House/Inn for a number of years about 1865 till their deaths, Martha dying in 1892. The property was then in the hands of their daughter Martha and her family until 1902 when it was sold. It was later demolished and The Summit Hotel was built in it's place to be owned at one time by Randolph Turpin, the boxer.
I still don't know John's first wife and am hoping for a marriage record look up by a Llandudno Local enthusiast on his parents Thomas and Emma. Emma was seemingly born about 1775 Caerhun according to the 1851 census. I'm holding my breath otherwise this is where this line stops. LOL
Hope this is of interest
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Hello Jomiskelly,
Thank you for the update.
I am pleased to hear you have made such good progress on this quest.
Looking at the baptisms on Freereg, I noticed that there was a couple by the name of Thomas and Jane Williams baptising children at Caerhun from 1807 onwards. They had baptisms for the following:
Jane 1807
Elizabeth 1810.
Thomas and Emma Williams had Mary baptised there in 1814.
I just wondered whether Thomas married twice, first to Jane and then to Emma.
There is a baptism in Caerhun in 10/01/1815, John Williams, son of Evan and Jane Williams.
Others at Caerhun for John Williams on 11/05/1817, son of Owen and Jane Williams;
28/08/1818, son of Bartholomew and Jane Williams.
04/07/1819, son of Thomas and Jane Williams.
These are as well as the baptism on 02/02/1817, John William Williams, son of Thomas and Emma Williams. Abode: Ro Wen. Occupation: Shoemaker.
The parish registers are on Find my Past.
There is a marriage for John Williams at Caerhun on 15/04/1835. It says groom's parish: Llanrhos. He married Elizabeth Jones of Caerhun.
A marriage at Conwy on 10/12/1841, John Williams, father Thomas Williams, to Grace Richard, father Moses Richard. Both of full age.
Let me know if I can be of help doing look ups online.
Best wishes,
Jo.
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Hi Jo,
Thanks for the look ups.
Firstly I had also meant to update saying the pub John and Martha had WAS the Old Telegraph!
Thank you for your suggestions. As far as I know Thomas only married once. However Emma had Mary and John quite late in life so maybe SHE married twice?
The Thomas who, with Emma had Mary and John does seem to be the right one. john always noted himself as being from Rowen/ caerhun and his marriage cert (marriage to Martha ELLIOTT - 2nd wife) states Thomas was a shoemaker. It doesn't say he was deceased though. The census returns for Emma however note her as a widow from 1851. 1841 return is too basic to know. A lookup from the Llandudno local site suggests a Thomas WILLIAMS was buried at Caerhun on 18 Nov 1841 Age 61. This puts him in a similar age bracket as Emma (Emma 1775 - from census returns, Thomas 1780). I found a possible GRO ref for his death Dec Qtr 1841 Conway Vol 27 Page 229, so might try it one day soon. I can't find anything on findmypast or freereg.
Oh this gang are so elusive .... :-\
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Can anyone tell me where I can access burial records for Caerhun St Mary's Church. Interested in the Elias family
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The Caerhun Burial Records are not on FreeReg however, the Three Towns Forum folk are EXCEEDINGLY helpful and have broken down MANY walls for me. They are local enthusiasts and may well be inclined to pop in to the archives when next passing and make a search for you if you are fairly specific in your request.
The site is www.threetownsform.co.uk Click on "Genealogy and Research" and leave your message there. You will probably have to register (free of charge). Alternatively you could email the archives at conway (Google for the address) and ask for a lookup. A basic one off request is often done out the kindess of their heart but long searches or multiples there is a standard fee.
You may find something on the familysearch website www.familysearch.org
If the deaths are after 1837 you could of course try FreeBMD for their deaths or ancestry.co.uk etc.
If it's pre 1837 my advice would be to put a request on the Three Towns Forum as first choice.
Hope this is of value
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Thanks for the feedback very helpful. I am not familiar with the Three Towns Forum site and the link you sent doesnt seem to work. The only similar name I can find relates to 3 towns in scotland. any more pointers?
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Oops, so sorry miss spelt forum. The link is www.threetownsforum.co.uk. Click on enter forum and then as I say, you may need to register to start a topic. The best section would be in genealogy and Research i guess.
Hope this works. If not google three towns forum llandudno and I'm sure that will work too
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Hi
Was at Caernarfon Archives for short period this afternoon, didn't have time to look up the Parish Burial record, but had a look at GFHS MIs for Caerhun.
There are 2 Elias graves, and a memorial inside the church:
C065 - Edward Elias, Gorswen 02/01/1893 aged 70;
William (eldest son) b. 04/09/1849 d. 05/09/1894;
Sarah (wife) 25/07/1865 aged 43;
Susannah Anne (infant daughter) 02/08/184.. (assume inscription undecipherable).
C075 - Edward youngest son of Edward Elias, Gorswen 19/05/1878 aged 21;
John Hughes Elias 2nd son b. 05/08/1852 d. 20/04/1896;
Jane widow of JHE died 23/07/1903.
X010 (inside the church) - Edward Elias, Gorswen b. 08/05/1822 d. 02/01/1893;
Sarah his wife 25/07/1865 aged 43;
Edward youngest son 19/05/1878 aged 21.
Emyr
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Thanks, I will book my trip. Since I last logged onto here I have used the www.threetownsforum.com site - it was great. I have also discovered the Elias family link to Maern Abbey where they resided for most of the 19th century. Some sites suggest they owned it others say it was the estate of Lord Newborough. I know now that Edward Elias and his father William before him were the Estate Manager of the Lord and hence they may have just resided there. I am also trying to work out whether Gorswen their home around Caerhun still exists or where it was - any help would be appreciate. If anyone can translate Welsh and could spare a few moments I also have a marriage article I would love to be able to understand (am sure it will have valuable detail in it) it would be much appreciated. thanks for all your help.
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Hi - was having trouble following this thread. Can I asked what caused you to look at the Elias graves. I have been looking at this recently but cannot work out if you are responding to a query of mine.. thanks