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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Caithness => Topic started by: heaths on Tuesday 16 March 10 04:57 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to track him down..
Born 1808 in (South) Dun, Watten Caithness...
To John Sutherland and Catherine (Katharine) Gunn
Married Margaret Buchanan in Wick 11 Feb 1831 she was living in Loisburgh at the time
On it he was a minister, when he died he was stated as a "Wesleyan"
Worked in Edinburgh as a carpenter joiner 1841 census then moved to Bankhead Hamlet, near Wick for the 1851 census then immigrated to Australia 1854
I have had some marvelous help from the Badbea site and members but he doesn't fit....
Anything would be a help even if it is to discount it at this stage..
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Also forgot to mention Margaret Sutherland nee' Buchanan parents were Robert Buchanan and Christian Sutherland.
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Hi, on ancestry there is quite a lot of info on your Isaac which you possibly already know, are you looking for his parents etc?
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Oh yes please... ;D we have discounted the Badbea connection although the names match but not the Geography
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Hi there Heaths, im a direct decendant of Isaac Sutherland. I have his parents, brothers etc names. i also have photos of him & his wife. If you go on to ancestory you should be able to find a lot of info on him if you haven;t done so already.
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I am on ancestry but have hit a dead end on his parents and siblings..
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igi has a marriage for john sutherland and katharine gun on 22 jan 1796 at latheron, caithness
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Im also at this stand still as i have found that not much info on Catherine Gunn or John Sutherland. I do believe that Catherine's parents are John Gunn & Janet Sutherland as i can tell so far. I also think that John Sutherland"s father is James Sutherland but have to investigate more to be sure. If you have any luck be sure to let me know as i with you!
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I am not sure of that either. I had that combination and ended up in Badbea territory which they helped me to disprove.
So direct line through the Sutherlands at Bannockburn....Isaac Snr or Junior.
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igi has a marriage for john sutherland and katharine gun on 22 jan 1796 at latheron, caithness
Trouble is, is it our Katharine and John.
Can not find siblings or any other info except for South Dunn and that quoted at his marriage and a minister.
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I do believe it is as my father started this family tree in 1991 & he had that date due to a family member back then who lived there in Caithness & had that exact date. At that time there wasn't any internet it was all hand posted etc. I tried to locate your tree on ancestory but couldn't! I'll attempt it again! In relation to the Badbea, i received a comment by Bryce who has directed me to the Badbea site so that i can do some digging. What led you to believe that it isn't the right direction? Bryce said to me that in the case of Catherine Gunn & John Sutherland that this was the correct link! Im going to check it out! I'll let you know!
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I do believe it is as my father started this family tree in 1991 & he had that date due to a family member back then who lived there in Caithness & had that exact date. At that time there wasn't any internet it was all hand posted etc. I tried to locate your tree on ancestory but couldn't! I'll attempt it again! In relation to the Badbea, i received a comment by Bryce who has directed me to the Badbea site so that i can do some digging. What led you to believe that it isn't the right direction? Bryce said to me that in the case of Catherine Gunn & John Sutherland that this was the correct link! Im going to check it out! I'll let you know!
The Badbea descendants helped and used their talents to try and find our Isaac but no luck.
I am hoping to go through some wesleyan records if I can and also the cabinetmaker joiner stuff from Edinburgh a guild record if we are lucky.
I had Isaac on the back burner because the Badbea stuff didn't pan out..so now I will go hunting further.
I have been asked to ask you if you have records on Isaac Jnr as he has slipped out of the records after he returned to UK with a William Phillips. Not known if he returned to Australia etc.
Ancestry is glitching..try again I have left mine public so I could get hints and connections.
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Hi Heather, hello again Ben,
Just realised that there are a couple of threads going about Isaac Sutherland at the moment ;)
Hopefully you have had a chance to read my reply to your post on Bryce's thread Ben, does this info link up with your family?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=198968.new;topicseen#new
Heather and I e-mailed a bit earlier on this year as she mentioned and we had decided that her "Isaac Sutherland" was unlikely to be a Badbea Descendant because of the links to Watten. I did not realise that your "Isaac Sutherland" is the same fellow!! How lucky that you found each other.
Isaac's birth was also in 1808, which causes other issues as the Berriedale "John Sutherland" and "Catherine Gunn" had a son in 1809 in Berriedale...not impossible...but unlikely that they had a child again so close. But it would be very strange and out of character for the couple who never left the Berriedale area to have a son in Watten, they had no family there, no connections known, and had their other 6 children in the Berriedale area.
hopefully some good info will show up for you two, it is so frustrating when you hit that brick wall :-\
I don't want to dash your hopes about Badbea, but advise caution when it comes to Sutherland's they are always interbreeding, and marrying in and out of the same families that they confuse the best of us!! So many have the same names too, I have several Sutherland/Gunn marriages in my tree ::)
I wish you both luck, and if I can be of any more help please let me know ;)
Jenny
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I hope that i am on the right road, it seems to fit except for the Watten part. Isaac was born in Dunn, Watten in Scotland. He married a Margaret Buchanan on 11 Feb 1831. They had several children, one of them being Isaac Jr who was born in 1838 in Eunant, Midloths, Scotland. Isaac Jr's mother(Margaret) was born on the 21 Sept 1806 in Caithness. She passed away on the 11 Aug 1893 in Victoria Australia where Isaac Sr passed on July 28 1896. His mother Catherine Gunn who was born in Latherton Caithness Scotland in 1773, married John Sutherland on the 22 of Jan 1796 in Caithness. John died about 1841 & Catherine on the 14 June 1861 both in Caithness. Isaac Sr also had another son who was James McFarlane Sutherland who was born in 1844 in Caithness & died on the 5 March 1903. He married a Grace Arabella Mathews who was born in 1852 & died on the 18 Oct 1944 in Victoria Australia. They had a son who was Edward Tonkin Sutherland who was born in 1887, died in 1952 in Western Australia. He was my gg grandfather. I hope this some how marries up to everything you have described. Ill post some more details up later, thanks very much Ben
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Hi Ben,
I hope that you are on the right track too, just advising caution, before you get too excited ;)
Nothing jumps out at me from the info that you popped up about your family, my Sutherland's as far as I know have no connections with Watten, Midlothian or Australia (until much later on i.e. 1920's with my g grandfather coming to Brisbane). None were trained in anyway, i.e. they were all crofters and servants, until my Rutherford's became Wine and Spirit Merchants. I am intruiged by the references to your Isaac being a minister...perhaps Heather will find some clue in the Wesleyan records.
I am not disputing that my John Sutherland died between 1841 and 1851 and his wife Catherine died in 1861 (I have her death cert) but I am not so sure that they are also your John & Catherine Sutherland. Perhaps your Isaac's parents also emigrated to Australia or NZ or perhaps even the US, maybe that is why we cannot find reference to them...or perhaps they died when Isaac was young?
Do you have info on Isaac Sutherland's siblings? This may give us a clue, as in good old Highland tradition there is a naming pattern for Scottish children, which could tell us who their granparents were...
I do hope something comes up to help us either link Isaac to my Sutherland family or tell us who his kin are, until then I will keep your info aside and let you know if I come across anything in my diggings ;)
Jenny
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Heather, sorry i haven't replied to you earlier post, ive been deep in research mode! in relation to isaac going back to UK with a william Philips, i haven't come across this yet & didn't know that he had done so! also thank you for connecting with my tree, was able to get some info & photos which should be quite helpful. I also noticed you had a photo of one of Robert Philip's children which i had not seen before. I'll have to get that photo as well! In the relation to the Badbea connection im not 100% sure but i think you maybe right but im going to check a few more leads & give Bryce & Jenny a few more dates etc to see if they marry up to their trees'. It isn't that easy to find the past generations if you don't know what your looking for!
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It isn't that easy to find the past generations if you don't know what your looking for!
That's what's so fun about genealogy. ;)
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I agree with Bryce....the thrill of the chase if half the fun....I think I was a detective in a past life ;D
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Heather, sorry i haven't replied to you earlier post, ive been deep in research mode! in relation to isaac going back to UK with a william Philips, i haven't come across this yet & didn't know that he had done so! also thank you for connecting with my tree, was able to get some info & photos which should be quite helpful. I also noticed you had a photo of one of Robert Philip's children which i had not seen before. I'll have to get that photo as well! In the relation to the Badbea connection im not 100% sure but i think you maybe right but im going to check a few more leads & give Bryce & Jenny a few more dates etc to see if they marry up to their trees'. It isn't that easy to find the past generations if you don't know what your looking for!
Same here Ben..
I am trying to sort out Coroners reports and matching dates of birth that don't fit on my other side...
I am glad you linked up to my ancestry...
I am following a bit more of the Somerset Hotel and I have been informed for sure Isaac and sons built it for E.E.Holmes.
Now which Sutherland son are you from?????? I am from Catherine.
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I hope that i am on the right road, it seems to fit except for the Watten part. Isaac was born in Dunn, Watten in Scotland. He married a Margaret Buchanan on 11 Feb 1831. They had several children, one of them being Isaac Jr who was born in 1838 in Eunant, Midloths, Scotland. Isaac Jr's mother(Margaret) was born on the 21 Sept 1806 in Caithness. She passed away on the 11 Aug 1893 in Victoria Australia where Isaac Sr passed on July 28 1896. His mother Catherine Gunn who was born in Latherton Caithness Scotland in 1773, married John Sutherland on the 22 of Jan 1796 in Caithness. John died about 1841 & Catherine on the 14 June 1861 both in Caithness. Isaac Sr also had another son who was James McFarlane Sutherland who was born in 1844 in Caithness & died on the 5 March 1903. He married a Grace Arabella Mathews who was born in 1852 & died on the 18 Oct 1944 in Victoria Australia. They had a son who was Edward Tonkin Sutherland who was born in 1887, died in 1952 in Western Australia. He was my gg grandfather. I hope this some how marries up to everything you have described. Ill post some more details up later, thanks very much Ben
Hi again Ben.
How do you know that the dates etc for John Sutherland and Catherine Gunn are good?
I checked igi and match that date . I will try and paste the info with numbers here. we have a problem with our Catherine and Katharine and Gun. That isn't a bad thing as they say the same thing though...
JOHN SUTHERLAND Pedigree
Male Family
Event(s):
Birth:
Christening:
Death:
Burial:
Marriages:
Spouse: KATHARINE GUN Family
Marriage:
22 JAN 1796 Latheron, Caithness, Scotland
Messages:
Form submitted by a member of the LDS Church. The form lists the submitter's name and address and may include source information. The address may be outdated. Details vary. To find the form, you must know the batch and sheet number.
Source Information:
Batch Number: 7016611
Sheet: 37
Source Call No.: 0538399 Type: Film
let me know Ben if this is good intel as I am holding my breath as this is better than I could get.
Also Margaret Buchanan docs are on my ancestry..
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Hi Heather,
In answer to your question about the marriage record below, I have looked at the actual Latheron Parish Register page and it states:
22 Jan 1796 John Sutherland and Katherine Gun both in Achancraig Ousdale contracted in order to marriage and married.
Unfortunately it doesn't give much more information, i.e. parents or witnesses, or even occupations, but at least it verifies the IGI record.
Don't know about you, but I never like to trust the IGI without checking the actual source ;)
I also have included the transcript of Catherine Sutherland (nee Gunn)'s death so that you have these for your records in case we do manage to link up the Berriedale family with your Watten Isaac Sutherland. I do have another Sutherland family earlier on in Watten though, so perhaps we join up anyways!!
14 Jun 1861 Catherine Sutherland - widow of John Sutherland (Crofter) Of Newport, Berriedale. 88yrs Father John Gunn (Crofter deceased) mother Janet Gunn (MS Sutherland deceased) Cause of death - old age. Informant John Sutherland (son present)
Hope this helps :)
Jenny
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Hi Heather,
In answer to your question about the marriage record below, I have looked at the actual Latheron Parish Register page and it states:
22 Jan 1796 John Sutherland and Katherine Gun both in Achancraig Ousdale contracted in order to marriage and married.
Unfortunately it doesn't give much more information, i.e. parents or witnesses, or even occupations, but at least it verifies the IGI record.
Don't know about you, but I never like to trust the IGI without checking the actual source ;)
I also have included the transcript of Catherine Sutherland (nee Gunn)'s death so that you have these for your records in case we do manage to link up the Berriedale family with your Watten Isaac Sutherland. I do have another Sutherland family earlier on in Watten though, so perhaps we join up anyways!!
14 Jun 1861 Catherine Sutherland - widow of John Sutherland (Crofter) Of Newport, Berriedale. 88yrs Father John Gunn (Crofter deceased) mother Janet Gunn (MS Sutherland deceased) Cause of death - old age. Informant John Sutherland (son present)
Hope this helps :)
Jenny
No that puts us back into the wrong area...I believe as you do that we aren't from Berriedale..
Isaac was a tradesman. Worked in Edinburgh. Worked in Wick. MAde a good living here in Australia and his sons worked with him..
Would he have had to be apprenticed do you think and are documents available like that in Scotland?
I think we need a carpenter or joiner father or Uncle etc.
What is the earlier family may I ask?
Maybe we can link that way..
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Hi there Heather, I'll try & answer as best i can with the questions you have! Isaac Sutherland & Margaret Buchanan had a son James McFarlane Sutherland(In the picture of family)who married Grace Arabella Mathews & had a son Edward Tonkin Sutherland(im putting photos of him up soon)who married Elizabeth Ellen Cavey & had a son Robert Thomas Sutherland. He is my Grandfather.
In relation to the Marriage for Catherine(Katharine)Gunn & John Sutherland it was once again in my dads family tree from 1991. He got it from the Sutherland bible that apparently existed. He said that it has been lost over the past 100 years. It would be good to find that! I hope this helps you! I think this is the correct IGI. Im also interested in the" I am following a bit more of the Somerset Hotel and I have been informed for sure Isaac and sons built it for E.E.Holmes" I would like to find out some more about that also! Let me know how it goes.
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Hi Ben,
I am hitting a brick wall with your James MacFarlane Sutherland.
None of Isaacs kids had middle names.
But I can't find through ancestry his family details. So I have asked for clarification from another family member who is researching the local history and isn't that worried about the Scottish part. But he is after the Somerset Hotel and he shares info with me...
I had sent to me years ago a claim for the Colony Club thing for Victoria and they researched the family from when they came to Australia. The Black Eagle and arrived 19 October 1854.
On the same ship was another Sutherland family with the mothers name as Margt...she died on the voyage.
James was 10 at the time of Immigration.
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The only reason that i know that his middle name is that dad used to call him uncle Mac! I found the Grave stones of him & Grace iv got to load them up as well. I also found out that of his 50 odd year lifespan he spent 23 years of it in hospital i believe! whereas Grace lived till she was 92! ill get you the website for that!
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Hi Heather & Ben,
In relation to the Marriage for Catherine(Katharine)Gunn & John Sutherland it was once again in my dads family tree from 1991. He got it from the Sutherland bible that apparently existed. He said that it has been lost over the past 100 years. It would be good to find that! I hope this helps you! I think this is the correct IGI.
I agree, wouldn't it be brilliant to have that bible! If your dad got it from the bible, has it only been lost since 1991 or did he get it from another source?
No that puts us back into the wrong area...I believe as you do that we aren't from Berriedale..
Isaac was a tradesman. Worked in Edinburgh. Worked in Wick. Made a good living here in Australia and his sons worked with him..
Would he have had to be apprenticed do you think and are documents available like that in Scotland?
I think we need a carpenter or joiner father or Uncle etc.
What is the earlier family may I ask?
Maybe we can link that way..
In answer to your questions Heather, my earlier Watten Sutherland link is as follows:
Jean Sutherland married Magnus Sandison/Sandyson on 5th April 1770 at Watten, Caithness
They had 3 children:
John Sandison - baptised 11 Jan 1771 Watten
Ann Sandison - baptised 7 Mar 1773 Watten (My rellie, who married George Tait in Wick in 1802)
Magnus Sandison - baptised 15 Apr 1776 Watten
There are stacks of Sutherland families in that area (all through Caithness in fact), I have not figured out for certain which Sutherland family Jean is from but have found a possible baptism:
Jean Sutherland chr: 25 Mar 1745 Watten Father: Donald Sutherland Mother: Ann Sutherland
as to the other question about trades........
The 6 known children of John & Catherine Sutherland of Berriedale had the following jobs:
Jane - married a shepherd who became a sheep farmer - no carpenters in the family
James - was a farmer, crofter and mason at various stages - so a trade but not a carpenter
Elizabeth - domestic servant, housekeeper
John - described in the census as a fisherman, agricultural labourer and mason
Hannah - married a crofter (who was also a Sutherland) and lived at Badbea
Janet - married a fisherman (who was also a Sutherland) and lived at Badbea
I do not know John Sutherland's brothers and sister's in order to see if there were any carpenters among them, and from what I know of Catherine's brother's they were crofters and fisherman.
Perhaps Isaac was sent to Edinburgh to learn a trade, or was apprenticed down there? I thought that Isaac was a minister? Or are we talking about Isaac Junior? Which one went to Australia?
Do either of you have a list of Isaac's children? That would help us identify who his parents were, if he used the Highland naming pattern that is ::)
Jenny
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The children of Isaac and Margaret Sutherland are as follows
Catherine Born 1832 at Wick
Robert ,, 1834 ,,
William ,, 1836 ,,
Isaac Jnr ,, 1840 Eunant, Midlothian
Christina ,, 1843 Wick
James ,, 1844 ,,
Elizabeth ,, 1849 ,,
Does that help us out????
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Well,
The highland naming pattern is:
1st Son - father's father
2nd Son - mother's father
1st daughter - mother's mother
2nd daughter - father's mother
So.....if they followed the pattern that would make Isaac's parents Robert & Christina and his wife's parents Catherine & William.....do we know if this matches his wife's parents? I don't know her name so I can't really check....perhaps we should be looking to see if there is a Robert & Christina Sutherland in the Watten area.....couldn't hurt to see if we have options :-\
Jenny
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Robert Buchanan and Christian Sutherland were Margaret Sutherland nee Buchanan's parents....
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Are we missing any children perhaps? There is a lack of any John's amongst the children....interesting though that they seem to have named their 1st son after the mother's father and their second daughter after the mother's mother.....it is backwards!! Oh well perhaps we are looking for a William and Catherine Sutherland as parents for Isaac....the Catherine bit is right we think :-\
I just checked and all my Scottish families right up to the 1920's used the Scottish naming pattern to the letter...it is a very Scottish thing to do ;)
Jenny
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I can't see the code here..not knowing the pieces but parents of Isaac are John ( so James? maybe we are looking for a James not a John Sutherland) and Catherine Gunn
Margarets parents are Robert Buchanan and Christian Sutherland
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Just had a thought...when did Isaac and Margaret marry?
Perhaps they had a son named John and a daughter named Christina/Christian before the others? Maybe the first Christina died early??
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The married 1831 Catherine born 1832.....named for his mother
Robert named for her father
William ?
Isaac for Isaac
Christine for her mother
James for ?
Elizabeth for ?
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Isaac doesn't fit the mold..he just doesn't....
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He doesn't seem to does he!! He must have been a radical to go against the stiff Scottish tradition ;D
I just wish he had used the pattern...Grr, back to the drawing board....
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I am not sure if it is of use or not but I found this website with numerous Sutherland's of Watten recorded, perhaps it will assist...
http://www3.telus.net/kamuwija/Suth10.pdf
I think the Donald Sutherland mentioned on the first page (born in 1720) may be the father of my Jean Sutherland (from my Watten family)...something for me to keep anyway for reference ;)
Jenny
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The Highland naming pattern is all well and good, but it only fits a few of my Highland families. :P
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Well I have a spare William, A James and an Elizabeth....not knowing the Grandparents...blast what is it with this man? Is he hiding? On his wedding there is an Alex?? Gunn day labourer from Dunn as a witness and her father Robert Buchanan
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Hey Bryce ;D
Wouldn't surprise me that your family don't fit the mould either!!
It is only to be used as a guide, it has helped me out in some fun and interesting situations, so I am sticking to it...must be the Scot in me :P
Alex Gunn may be worth chasing, perhaps he leads to your Catherine Gunn......don't think he is hiding mate....just far too many Gunn's and Sutherland's up that way...why couldn't he have had a much more individual name eh?
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At least his forename wasn't John or William!
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True!!! But Isaac isn't helping either ::)
This is what Scotland's People say about the naming pattern:
Traditional naming patterns
Scots often named children by following a simple set of rules:
1st son named after father's father
2nd son named after mother's father
3rd son named after father
1st daughter named after mother's mother
2nd daughter named after father's mother
3rd daughter named after mother
Although this was not universally applied (some families adhered strictly, others “dabbled” and still others ignored it), it can still be helpful in determining the correct entry when confronting the relative lack of information in the OPR’s. It can also give rise to great confusion when eight children of the same family in a small parish name their offspring according to convention! The use of traditional naming patterns gradually declined during the 19th century.
The application of naming conventions and the general desire to ensure that a family forename perpetuated through the generations, sometimes led to duplication of forenames within a family. For example, where a family wished to adhere strictly to the traditional naming pattern, and both grandfathers bore the same forename, that name might be given to more than child. If a child died young, parents might name a later child after the dead sibling. In unfortunate cases, the name may have been used more than once.
Sometimes there appears to be no rhyme or reason to the naming: a child might be named after the minister, the midwife, the doctor, an employer, an influential personage in the community or a close friend, who might appear as a witness to the birth. Witnesses are not always given in OPR entries, but where they are, sometimes (as in Dundee) you will find their relationship to child, if any, noted, e.g. “Charles Jobson, grandfather”, “Mrs Janet Speid, father’s mother”.
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?561
If you want to check out their other hints and tips ;)
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Would naming his 4th child after himself mean anything????
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Hey Bryce ;D
Wouldn't surprise me that your family don't fit the mould either!!
It is only to be used as a guide, it has helped me out in some fun and interesting situations, so I am sticking to it...must be the Scot in me :P
Alex Gunn may be worth chasing, perhaps he leads to your Catherine Gunn......don't think he is hiding mate....just far too many Gunn's and Sutherland's up that way...why couldn't he have had a much more individual name eh?
A grandfather perhaps...with a Catherine who married a John Sutherland......might work...
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Alex Gunn could be an uncle or a cousin too, but worth chasing I think....
Plenty of mine named children after themselves after they had used up the parents......so his third son being named Isaac actually fits with the pattern described by Scotland's People. No Margaret though...which is interesting as they had 3 girls....
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I will go hunting at scotlands people tomorrow.
Thanks for the good tips....if I strike out I will put him on the back burner....
I am getting some on Ancestry who want to connect an Isaac from Orkney......:(
tomorrow.
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Good luck!!!
Let us know how you go ;)
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:) :) :)
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Hi Heather, i uploaded some photos on ancestory. I'll be doing some more over the next couple of days when i can. By the way, if you go to www.zades.com & go to the meredith grave plots, go to page 21 & plot number 176 from memory there is James McFarlane Sutherland & Grace Arabella. The only child i know of is Edward Tonkin Sutherland, but on the inscription it says "our father" which means more kids to me! There is a Robert William Sutherland also on this site who on the plot says that He had the same parents as Grace! It doesn't make scence to me as Grace's last name was Mathews. He died in 1908 at age 37, im trying to find out a little more, ill keep you informed! Ben
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Sorry i meant www.zades.com.au
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Hi Heather, i uploaded some photos on ancestory. I'll be doing some more over the next couple of days when i can. By the way, if you go to www.zades.com & go to the meredith grave plots, go to page 21 & plot number 176 from memory there is James McFarlane Sutherland & Grace Arabella. The only child i know of is Edward Tonkin Sutherland, but on the inscription it says "our father" which means more kids to me! There is a Robert William Sutherland also on this site who on the plot says that He had the same parents as Grace! It doesn't make scence to me as Grace's last name was Mathews. He died in 1908 at age 37, im trying to find out a little more, ill keep you informed! Ben
Good Morning Ben,
My Source sent me this info..I have pasted from my email...
I have just found in my notes that our Isaac had a son “James M Sutherland” who was born 1846 in Wick, died 1903 in Bamganie.
James M Sutherland had children, Margaret B Sutherland 1878. James M Sutherland 1879. Robert 1880. Grace 1883. Edward T 1887 and Annie 1890.
So I think he may be your 42 cousin………….
Does he have anything on Isaac junior??
abd this
Buy Image
Buy Cert
Surname
Given Name(s)
Event
Sps Snm / Father
Sps Gvn / Mother
Year
Reg. No
SUTHERLAND
Jas Mcfarlane
D
Sutherland Isaac
BUCHANAN - Margt
1903
2888
what I am coming up against is no middle names on census. none on ship list and none on parents death certs or on even Catherine Sutherlands when she died....so this is all new to me and makes finding these kids harder.
I even found another Margaret Buchanan and an Isaac Sutherland who married in Thurso..He was a blacksmith ..ON our Isaacs marriage the mention Dun and a minister.
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Hi Heather, ive been busy finding grave stones etc. Ive found a Maregret, Robert & James Sutherland at Bannockburn cemetery where they apparently died, there was no Isaac Sutherland though. Im getting a copy of the photos sent to me. Hopefully some of the inscriptions will lead to something else. By your last post with the extra kids that i haven't got, i found a picture of Robert Sutherland that my dad had. He also had a picture of Margeret with Daughters Margeret, Grace & Annie! Which may confirm what you wrote. Im going to try & scan the pictures & put them on ancestry so you can see. Not the best copies though.
Ben
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Hi Heather, ive been busy finding grave stones etc. Ive found a Maregret, Robert & James Sutherland at Bannockburn cemetery where they apparently died, there was no Isaac Sutherland though. Im getting a copy of the photos sent to me. Hopefully some of the inscriptions will lead to something else. By your last post with the extra kids that i haven't got, i found a picture of Robert Sutherland that my dad had. He also had a picture of Margeret with Daughters Margeret, Grace & Annie! Which may confirm what you wrote. Im going to try & scan the pictures & put them on ancestry so you can see. Not the best copies though.
Ben
Hi Ben,
That adds to the quota...I have also found the youngest child of Isaac's Elizabeth Sutherland. No more middle names though..also found she was born in Orkney.
I have put it up on Ancestry and have made more connections.
There is a listing of Bannockburn Cemetry with a lot of them buried there. An awful lot of children sadly.
re Isaac
28th of July. Isaac Sutherland passed away at Bannockburn. He was 88 years old and has been suffering from senile decay for approximately 4 years. The cause of death is listed as exhaustion. The informant on his death certificate is his daughter in-law Agnes Sutherland from Oakleigh, and the undertaker is his Grandson William Phillips.
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Hi Heather & Ben,
Just in case you haven't already found it, the following article is in the The Argus (Melbourne) in 1865 concerning Isaac Sutherland and his daughter Elizabeth at Bannockburn. Distressing stuff I am afraid :-\
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5737843?searchTerm=%22isaac+sutherland%22
Not sure that it helps any in the search for his forebears but thought I would pass it on all the same
Jenny
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Hi Heather & Ben,
Just in case you haven't already found it, the following article is in the The Argus (Melbourne) in 1865 concerning Isaac Sutherland and his daughter Elizabeth at Bannockburn. Distressing stuff I am afraid :-\
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5737843?searchTerm=%22isaac+sutherland%22
Not sure that it helps any in the search for his forebears but thought I would pass it on all the same
Jenny
Found it already Jen, but nothing further is reported. He stayed married to her sister Catherine and had a heap of kids.
Elizabeth married had 3 kids and her and her last baby died very close to each other...
I am not sure what happened and it seemed to have faded away.
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Thought that you might already have had it Heather, I love the fact that we can get access to the newspapers now....the information is amazing!
I'll let you know if I come across anything else of interest, just in case ;)
Jenny
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Thought that you might already have had it Heather, I love the fact that we can get access to the newspapers now....the information is amazing!
I'll let you know if I come across anything else of interest, just in case ;)
Jenny
Many thanks.
I also learnt that Isaac when he was living in Australia sometimes did the burial service at Bannockburn, so he did still stay with his being a minister but not with the church if there was one at Bannockburn. That is on my to do list.
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How interesting! It would be lovely to find some record of him in the Church, minstering or training or something.....though I did have a relative who also performed burials but he was not trained at all...his only claim to the church was that he had two uncles who were ministers, mind you he also masqueraded as a doctor!!! I like your carpenter also performing burials...perhaps he did the coffins too?
Early Australia is fun isn't it, they were often Jack of all trades weren't they ;D
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How interesting! It would be lovely to find some record of him in the Church, minstering or training or something.....though I did have a relative who also performed burials but he was not trained at all...his only claim to the church was that he had two uncles who were ministers, mind you he also masqueraded as a doctor!!! I like your carpenter also performing burials...perhaps he did the coffins too?
Early Australia is fun isn't it, they were often Jack of all trades weren't they ;D
I think they had to be jack of all trades.
But we know he was a minister when he married.
I know now his grandson helped dig graves and helped Isaac.
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Hey Heather,
Not sure if you have enquired with these guys or not yet, but perhaps there is a record of your Isaac Sutherland in the Methodist (Wesleyan) Collection at the John Rylands University Library?
http://www.library.manchester.ac.uk/specialcollections/collections/methodist/
They appear to have a fair amount of info that they can search...perhaps an e-mail there will bring up something ;)
Jenny
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Hi,
I am new to Roots Chat. I am also related to Isaac Sutherland, my great-grandmother was Jane, daughter of William, one of Isaac's sons.
Regarding Isaac being a Wesleyan Methodist minister, it may be possible that he only became involved in that church on arrival in Australia. This happened with my Pederick family who took up the Methodist faith after they arrived in South Australia. In the 1970s the Methodist church became part of the Uniting Church of Australia and I note that the Uniting Church of Australia Synod for Victoria and Tasmania has an archivist service that may be able to help see http://wr.victas.uca.org.au/synod-archives-and-historical-society/
By the way my daughter and I spent yesterday finding the graves of the Sutherlands buried at Bannockburn and Meredith cemeteries as well as touring around the district. At Bannockburn cemetery there was one grave amongst the Sutherland group with its headstone laying face down. Isaac's maybe??
Esther
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Hello Esther,
Another Sutherland :)
I got the minister from his marriage Banns..
I will transcribe for you..the copy is to large to post
Sutherland Isaac, Minister in Dunn in the Parish Watten, was
married to Margaret Buchanan in Louisburgh.
Alex Gunn, day labourer in Dunn ? for the man & Robt Buchanan weaver in Louisburgh for the woman.
The page dated 1831 Jan 21st
a signature at the bottom of page T.A. Gibson????
I have some photos of Bannockburn cemetry on my Ancestry tree. There is no headstone for Isaac or for Margaret that I could find...
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I am a descendent of Isaac Sutherland who immigrated to Australia with his family on the Black Eagle in 1854. I am a descendent of his son Robert and Agnes (nee Cashley). I understand there may be some photos of Isaac around. I am confused by suggestions Isaac may have built the Somerset Hotel in Bannockburn Victoria. I understand it was first licenced in 1854. If Isaac and family arrived in Melbourne in October it doesn't give him a lot of time to be involved in the build. Also interested in suggestion he may have been a minister -is there any evidence of this?
regards
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Hello jmd1,
The Somerset Hotel was the contract he and his boys got within a week of landing in Melbourne from Mr E.C. Holmes.
His sons William and Robert were contracted for 3 months work at 40 pounds each on the 26th October 1854 and Isaac on same day for 100 pounds for six months work.
This has also been corroborated by the Holmes family and a descendant met several family members at the old Hotel in 2010 when I took the photos.
The oldest daughter Catherine Sutherland with her husband Robert Phillips purchased the Hotel and Robert died in the creek just below the Hotel.
Catherine is my descendant from her first husband.
Isaac Sutherland and Margaret Buchanans marriage Banns are the source of him being a Minister and his death Cert has him as a Wesleyan.
I have been told that he conducted funerals and his grandson William Phillips dug graves and possibly Isaac built the coffins as he was a carpenter.
There are a heap of documents and photos for the family on Ancestry but trying to track Isaacs parents in Scotland has proven very difficult to date.
I have photos of the Somerset Hotel as it is today, the marriage documents, shipping lists etc and I am going after the immigration papers of Isaac and his family.
The Somerset Hotel is at cnr Shelford &Hervey Rd, Bannockburn, Vic
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Thanks for this information - it has been very helpful. It will let me 'flesh out' the info I have. Particularly happy to now have a photo of Isaac.
I know Isaac was listed as a farmer in the Directory of Victoria (Baillieres) 1869 list. Do you know where his farm was?
regards jmd
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When I was at Bannockburn I met with other family but no info on other homes was given and Isaac dealt in a lot of land being a builder
.. a new housing estate has gone up behind the old pub called Somerset estate..
I think if given a chance it would be best to go to the council offices there...
I will do that next trip down.But that could be a year off at this stage.
Here is a photo of Robert Sutherland and his death registration
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sorry the death rego didn't work
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Hi all you Sutherland's. I just couldn't watch this conversation any longer without getting involved (I have been sitting on the side for 6 months). So I signed up today just to let you know that there is a Phillips re-union at Ballarat this year in April, and every Phillips there will have Sutherland blood flowing through their veins. I have all the information on the land around Bannockburn owned by Isaac, his sons Robert and William, and his daughters Catherine and Christina. When bought, when sold, and the locations.
It would be fantastic to have some Sutherlands come along and catch up with your Phillips relatives.
Esther, the head stone laying down, I believe is one of the Cattanach children, which would be Isaac's Grandson (Duncan) from his daughter Christina, who married John Cattanach.
I met your dad many years ago, and gave me a program he was using called "my Brothers keeper". It has almost every branch of the family right through to about the 80's. I guess you have a copy.
Ben, I cant find you on my tree, so I guess you are in your 30s or younger and probably related through either James who passed away in 1953 or Edward, who I have no information on. I am looking forward to filling in some blanks on James McFarlands Sutherland's side... he just seems to have dropped of the radar in Bannockburn.
Hi Heath, I got you e-mail. Bring as many of your rellies as possible, we need to out number the Masons this year, I hear their numbers are increasing and the Phillips numbers are dwindling.
Looking forward to hearing from you all,
Bill
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jmd1, Sorry but my post to you just disappeared into cyber space. I tried to send an attachment showing the land which Isaac purchased and where it was in relation to your Roberts farm. I think it was the wrong format, but I am going to try and find out where I went wrong and send it to you again. I will get back to you with the details...
Bill
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Hi Bill,
My father, Bob Gale, did a lot of work on the various arms of our family and I am sure he corresponded with and probably visited many of his close and distant cousins in the process. After Dad died in 1997 my husband exported his files as Gedcom files so that his research would not be lost. Last year my daughter, Erica, and I used these Gedcom files as the start for our research by loading them in to Family Tree Maker. So I guess we have had a flying start all these years later.
I also have an amount of Dad's correspondence and printouts (whether his or others I am not always sure). And photos - unfortunately not always labelled. I have barely scratched the surface of these, but have recently started sorting and scanning them.
I wished that we had had a man or two with us on the day Erica and I visited Bannockburn cemetery, I so much wanted to lift up that headstone! :)
Erica and I would be keen to meet up with you and others at the Phillips reunion, so please let us know where and when it will be held in Ballarat.
Regards,
Esther Birchall
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Hi Esther, thanks for the speedy reply...
The re-union is on Sunday April 15, from 10:00 am.
In the Ballarat Gardens, near the Glass House there is a meeting room in the "Robert Clark Horticultural Centre".
Tea and Coffee are supplied, but bring your own lunch.
I look forward to meeting you and your family, as it was at this re-union I first met your dad about 20 years ago.
I have only just recently found the land (33 acres) which William Sutherland purchased in Bannockburn, and once I work out how to do the attachment, I will send a copy. It was just above the cemetery and to the left.
Bill
P.S. If this attachment comes through, William's land is in the top right corner beside the dark green blocks. You can see the 33 just before it is cut off
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Esther, I meant above the cemetery and to the right. In fact you probably drove right by it getting to the cemetery.
Bill
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Bill,
Many thanks, the map downloaded just fine. And now I know that we drove past William's land when we went to the cemetery!
I've put 15 April in my calendar!
Cheers
Esther
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Hi Bill,
Glad you have joined in finally :))
Had a look at the land map.. what is the writing on the top?
When William inherited the land from Isaac is there a copy of the will anywhere. What did he leave the other kids? He had heaps of land blocks.
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Hello all you people....
Lovely to read through the postings, each time hoping for a 'link' but no there isnt one... Its just that the names are so similar, to some in mine :-\
But mine were basically shoemakers from Fife.
However - Sutherland - Buchanan - John James Robert Margaret are all names from my tree... I think there maybe a Gunn in there too.
and MY Father John Sutherland, emigrated to Australia circa 1950 and joined the Royal Australian Navy.
just thought I would pop on and say hello to fellow Sutherland researchers.
;)
xin
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Hi Xin,
Chasing Isaac Sutherland has become an obsession....I have almost everything on Ancestry.com so that I can pick up more info and any records that become available.
Post photos and documents and share them.
And as you can see cousins have reconnected and Isaac has become a person to us all instead of a name and a date.
The Somerset Hotel started the new life for him and his family and they succeeded. But I want to know the whys and the wheres etc..
I have 2 trees on ancestry. but try this link
http://trees.ancestry.com.au/tree/14720119/person/158039388
I am not sure if you have to be a member to see it though.
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Thank you everyone for all the information. Until a few months ago I had no idea I had any Sutherland blood flowing in my veins.
My lineage is Isaac and Margaret Sutherland - son Robert and Agnes (nee )Cashley - daughter Ethel Amy and Herbert Stranger - daughter (Helen) Alma and (John) Roy Shepherd - daughter Margaret and John Taylor.
I am reading all your messages with interest.
regards
Janice
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managed to get to the link... via ancestry uk... very interesting... just wish we could connect ... but very doubtful..
So many Sutherlands with the same names.....
I was in touch with a lady from your part of the world sometime back who was researching Sutherlands...in depth.... cant think of her name just now. But I imagine you will have found her..
bfn
xin
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Hi Heather,
Isaac sold almost all his land in about 1890, and I doubt he had anything left to sort out by the time he passed away in 1896. His Grandson William Phillips and his Granddaughter Eveline Proctor purchased all his property around Bannockburn.
You are good at finding the wills and probate, so I guess this will be one you go after..... I await your results with interest. 8)
Bill
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Hi Bill,
There isn't one on record!!! been looking because that would give us the land etc.. I don't even know where they lived :(
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Hi All,
I'm new to this site, but have been trying to track down Isaac Sutherland after Ben left his footprints on the edge of what I was working on in Family Search! :) Ben I left a message for you there and also spliced your family snippets into mine. I am also a descendant of James McFarlane Sutherland through his daughter Ann Agnes Pentecost Sutherland.
Of interest is www.meredithnews.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/August__2011_-_WEB.pdf where a local historian Marg Cooper has written a short article on Edward Tonkin Sutherland. Some years ago she researched and wrote a book on all of the local men who were ex students of Bamganie State School who went away to the Great War. Edward was one of these. My Grandmother was his sister.
I'll work my way through these posts and put in my two pence worth. I will say that my father remembers mention of, I think Isaac, planting churches up and down the road between Geelong and Balaarat. He was more likely to be what is now called a Lay Preacher as he kept his "full time job " as carpenter. He would not have been at all like a full time Anglican minister.
I remember my grandmother as very strict in her views, very straight laced and proud of her family!
I have some documents and will reread them soon.
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For another view of Isaac Sutherland and his family, you may wish to read the following.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/5737843?searchTerm=%2BIsaac%20%2Bsutherland%20%2BBannockburn%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20&searchLimits=l-state=Victoria|||l-decade=186|||l-category=Article
Cheers
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Hi Croftia, nice to see another relative pop up. I am Isaac Sutherland's Great, Great, Great, Great grandson via Catherine Sutherland and her first marriage to Robert Phillips. I am happy to e-mail if you like, its billphillips@dodo.com.au Cheers, Bill