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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Roxburghshire => Topic started by: rockhopper on Saturday 20 March 10 09:01 GMT (UK)

Title: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: rockhopper on Saturday 20 March 10 09:01 GMT (UK)
Any Douglas baptisms at Jedburgh appreciated - but especially looking for James Douglas c1669 died 1750 at the age of 81
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: rockhopper on Friday 04 June 10 14:36 BST (UK)
This is about the burial of James Douglas c1669 - in the Jedburgh Abbey Graveyard -
Front "Angel bones, skull, spade and shovel, hour glass" Reverse "Here Lyes James Douglass, Gardener and Burgess in Jedburgh d 30.4.1750 81 and James, Christian and Janet children of George Douglass Gardener in Jedburgh"

This is also about George Douglas/Dowglas 1720 Jedburgh - Gardener in Jedburgh and tenant at Howden & Agness (Annie) Oliver 1723 Jedburgh as three of their children James (1) 1748 Jedburgh, Christian (1) 1750 Jedburgh and Jannat 1752 Jedburgh lie with James c1699 to 1750.

Was James Douglas c1669 the father or grand-father of George Douglas 1720 Jedburgh  ???
Title: Jedburgh - James Douglas a gardiner children
Post by: Kiwicol on Tuesday 12 December 17 01:49 GMT (UK)
Hi Rockhopper
Just started to look into the family of this James Douglas, I descend from daughter Margaret
Online sources have him as being married in 1703 to Isobell Couman, and then in 1710 to Jannet Olipher/Oliver
The registers seem to have a merchant and Baiilie James Douglas having children around the same time and John Smith late Provost and George Waddell, a glover seem to be baptismal witness to children to James the gardiner and James the merchant and Baillie, given later he is a Burgess of Jedburgh can these earlier baptisms be to the same man, there is also a James Douglas a herd, but think we can rule him out.
Also online sources have  "our James" being a son of a William and a Mason?
Cheers Colin
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: rockhopper on Tuesday 12 December 17 02:35 GMT (UK)
Hi - there were a few named 'Margaret Douglas' around that time. Google - Hay Genealogy. My James Douglas c1669 was the son of a John Douglas. He had a least two siblings who were also Gardiners (Gardeners) - John Douglas and Andrew Douglas. William Douglas and George Douglas around that time and also Gardiners were possibly siblings of James too. This James Douglas was on the Jedburgh Council and he was made a Burgess. There was another James Douglas around that time on the Jedburgh Council and he was a Merchant. Those online sources are mine. But not the one where his father was a William. I would be very interested in other children of James Douglas the Gardiner, so far I only have George, Margaret and James. George Douglas his son who was also a Gardiner is my ancestor. I haven't come across my James as also being a Baillie. It is possible that James the Merchant and Baillie were one and the same. Rockhopper
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: rockhopper on Tuesday 12 December 17 02:55 GMT (UK)
Hay Genealogy and 'Margaret Douglas' - http://haygenealogy.com/hay/church/margaretdouglas.html
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: rockhopper on Tuesday 12 December 17 03:01 GMT (UK)
The Margaret Douglas who was the daughter of James Douglas or Douglass the Burgess and Gardiner in Jedburgh.
Name: Margret Douglas\Dowglas
Sex: F
Birth: 9 MAY 1722 in Jedburgh, Roxburghshire, Scotland
Father: James Douglass\Douglas b: ABT 1669 in Jedburgh, Roxburghshire, Scotland
Mother: Jonet\Jonnet\Jennat Olipher b: BEF 20 FEB 1678 in Jedburgh, Roxburghshire, Scotland
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: Kiwicol on Tuesday 12 December 17 03:45 GMT (UK)
I have Margaret daughter of James the gardiner and burgess, married to William Knox in Athelstaneford, the 1744 marriage entry said she was from Jedburgh

Baptism Father a gardiner in Jedburgh, George Waddell and George Douglas the witnesses
George Waddell is a witness to some of Baillie James Douglas's children as well.

Margaret, daughter of the deceased James Douglas, merchant  and provost of Jedburgh, and wife of William  Knox, of Mayshiell 29 Mar. 1786
Commissariot Records Edinburgh Register of testaments Part 111 page 77 (1701 - 1800)

battery on mouse has died

How do you know John is his father?
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: rockhopper on Tuesday 12 December 17 04:57 GMT (UK)
Jedburgh - From the House of Lords Journal Voi 25, April 1738, 11-20.  "Marq. Lothian & al. against Haswell & al:

After hearing Counsel, as well on Wednesday and Thursday last as this Day, upon the amended Petition and Appeal of William Marquis of Lothian, alleging to be present Provost of the Borough of Jedburgh, James Davidson, Joseph Thomson, George Martin, and Archibald Douglas, Merchants, present Baillies of the said Borough, John Jerdine Merchant, present Dean of Guild of the said Borough, William Thomson Chirurgeon, present Treasurer of the said Borough, Henry Leck and Thomas Bell Merchants, George Waddell and Adam Robson Glovers, and David King Burgess, Five of the present Counsellors thereof, John Porteous Glover, present Deacon of the Glovers and One of the present Council Deacons and Conveener of the Trades, Gabriel Newtoun Taylor, and present Deacon of the Taylors and Council Deacon, George Lookup Wright, present Deacon of the Wrights and Council Deacon, John Wauch Flesher, present Deacon of the Fleshers and Council Deacon, John Bell Shoemaker, and present Deacon of the Shoemakers, William Ronaldson Weaver; and present Deacon of the Weavers, James Pitillo Smith, and present Deacon of the Smiths, Robert Finlay Mason, and present Deacon of the Masons, John Hall Inn-keeper, John Bennet Tobacconist, Gilbert Turnbull Gardener, John Borthwick Merchant, James Douglas Gardener, John Wilkeison Baxter, and Robert Wood Litster, for themselves, as Magistrates, Office-bearers, Deacons of Crafts, and Members of the Town Council, of the said Borough, and in Name and Behalf of the Town Council, and Whole Burgesses, Inhabitants, and Community thereof, adhering to them; complaining of several Interlocutors of the Lords of Session in Scotland; of the 19th of January, 1st, 8th, and 16th of February, 1737/8, made on the Behalf of John Haswell, alleging to be present Provost of the Borough of Jedburgh, Alexander Waugh, Andrew Frame, Alexander Jerden, and John Young, Merchants, present Baillies of the said Borough, George Riddle Merchant, present Dean of Guild of the said Borough, John Winterup Merchant, present Treasurer thereof, John Smith, James Douglas, William Sleigh, William Young, Robert Winterup, George Scougald, all Six Merchants, John Oliver, and William Brown Tobacconist, Robert Dick Litster, and Thomas Rutherfoord Writer in the said Borough, Ten of the present Counsellors, George Shortred Shoemaker, and present Deacon of the Shoemakers and One of the present Council Deacons there, James Johnson Baxter, Thomas Smaill Tobacconist, James Haswell Writer, John White Merchant, Andrew Rutherfoord Younger, Glover, David Wright Barber, Cornelius Inglis Merchant, George Ballerwell, Richard Hair, and Richard Dick, Shoemakers, William Oliver Smith, Robert Rutherfoord Sadler, John Fiddes and James Scott Glovers, John Common and William Ballantine Weavers, John Porteous, Andrew Borthwick, and Walter Reidford, Taylors, Robert Binyie Mason, Henry Young Glazier, William Coverhill and Robert Donaldson Wrights, and Walter Scott and Robert Henderson Fleshers, all in the said Borough of Jedburgh; for themselves, as Magistrates, Office-bearers, Deacons of Crafts, and Members of the Town Council, of the said Borough, and also as Burgesses, Gild Brethren, Members of Incorporation, and Inhabitants, respectively, of the said Borough, and in Name and Behalf of the Town Council and Whole Burgesses, Inhabitants and Community thereof, adhering to them; and praying, "That the said Interlocutors, so far as they are in the Appeal recited, may be reversed, varied, or amended; and that the Appellants may obtain such Relief as this House shall find just:" As also upon the joint and several Answer of the said John Haswell and the Persons last named put in to the said Appeal; and due Consideration had of what was offered on either Side in this Cause:
Judgement.

It is Ordered and Adjudged, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That the Interlocutor of the Lords of Session, of the 19th of January last, whereby the Elections of the Appellants were reduced at the Suit of the Respondents, be affirmed: And it is Declared, That the Elections of Counsellors and Magistrates for the Borough of Jedburgh, insisted on by the Respondents, were irregular and void: And it is therefore further Ordered and Adjudged, That the same be reduced; and that so much of the other Interlocutors complained of, whereby the Court of Session decerned in the Declarator, at the Instance of the Respondents, and assoilzied from the Reduction at the Instance of the Appellants, with regard to all the Elections thereby quarrelled (excepting those of Robert Winterup and George Scougald), be reversed."
In this extract there is James Douglas a Merchant and it appears that he was also a Baillie. There is also (on the other side) James Douglas a Gardener (he is my ancestor). From his tombstone in the Jedburgh Abbey Graveyard it is written that he was a Gardener and a Burgess.
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: rockhopper on Tuesday 12 December 17 05:02 GMT (UK)
Could this be your Margaret Douglass?
Gender    Female
Christening Date    14 Apr 1723
Christening Place    JEDBURGH, ROXBURGH, SCOTLAND
Birth Date    07 Apr 1723
Father's Name    James Douglass
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: rockhopper on Tuesday 12 December 17 05:04 GMT (UK)
Or this? Margaret Douglass
Gender    Female
Christening Date    18 Mar 1716
Christening Place    JEDBURGH, ROXBURGH, SCOTLAND
Birth Date    13 Mar 1716
Father's Name    James Douglass
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: rockhopper on Tuesday 12 December 17 05:13 GMT (UK)
I think that this was Andrew Douglas a brother of James Douglas c1669.
Andrew Dowglas
Gender    Male
Christening Date    20 Mar 1681
Christening Place    JEDBURGH, ROXBURGH, SCOTLAND
Father's Name    John Dowglas
Andrew Douglas was a Gardiner in Jedburgh and for a brief period was a Soldier in Flanders. He returned to being a Gardener in Jedburgh.
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: rockhopper on Tuesday 12 December 17 05:33 GMT (UK)
James Douglas c1669 - Tombstone
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: Kiwicol on Tuesday 12 December 17 21:57 GMT (UK)
Thanks for all that, will have a look at the testament of Margaret tomorrow see if it has anything to add. so will delete dates of birth and death from James and look at those other 2 Margarets.
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: KennethDavidson on Monday 09 April 18 14:23 BST (UK)
Hi,

By chance I was researching Cranstons in Jedburgh over the weekend and found the family of William Cranston & Jennat Douglass (married 14 Jul 1706 in Jedburgh). Their son George was born in 1719 in Jedburgh, and a James Douglas (gardener) and George Ronaldson (weaver) were witnesses.

This note may be a bit peripheral, but I’ve added it in case it's of interest.

Kenneth.
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: amac1210 on Monday 25 March 19 17:45 GMT (UK)
Hello All,

I know this is quite an old thread. I have recently located an ancestor of mine in Kilmarnock, Ayrshire. He was James Douglas who married Janet Sim, in 1745. They moved from Loudoun, Ayrshire - where her father Francis Sim came from - to Kilmarnock, shortly after their first daughter was born in 1747. Looking at the records, from the wedding in 1745 all the way through to 1764, James Douglas is listed as a "Gardener".

At this time another branch of Douglases had moved from Jedburgh to Kilmarnock also. They descended from James Douglas (Gardener) born c.1669 and went into clockmaking. John Douglas, born c.1759 had a portrait painted which can readily be found online. They latterly moved down South to England, to continue their successful enterprise.

What I'm curious about is how my James Douglas connects to the other gardeners in the family. I had considered he might be the same James Douglas - born in 1727 - who was supposedly son of James Douglas (born c.1669). This presents an issue though, in that he marries at 18 to a woman of 24! Not very common in those days? But I don't know. His father was sure old when he was born, and that isn't too ordinary either.

Either that, or perhaps he descends as a son or grandson from the other gardeners - Andrew Douglas or John Douglas? Can anyone illuminate the most likely solution here? Naming patterns don't seem to reveal much in this case. I have my James with children: David, James, Margaret (x3), Francis (x2) and Janet. There was a tenth child who I haven't found yet. Francis is accounted for in the Sim family, as is Janet. So presuming the names David, Margaret or James may come up?

Thanks,

Anthony
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: rockhopper on Friday 14 February 20 01:56 GMT (UK)
James Douglas was born Sep 1669 Jedburgh to a John Douglas. James was a Gardener (Gardiner) in Jedburgh from at least 1695 when he was living in the Canongate Quarter. He had brothers who were Gardeners - Andrew, and possibly John, William and George. James remained as a Gardiner, he was also a Burgess of Jedburgh. One of his sons was George Douglas 1720 Jedburgh, he became a Gardener. Another son was a James born 1727 in Jedburgh. George 1720 was the father of John Douglas 1759 who was the Master Clockmaker in Jedburgh. John moved to Galston in about 1800, reportedly to work for the Earl of Loudoun. In my direct Ancestry there were another 3 generations of Clockmakers after John Douglas till my father. John Douglas 1759 had 3 sons and all were Clockmakers - Gabriel - also an Innkeeper and Vintner, he was the one who moved to Galston, Kilmarnock, Troon then Irvine; Walter a Master Clockmaker who moved to Muirkirk, Dollar, Galston and then back to Old Cumnock and Muirkirk. He who finished up in Holytown, Glasgow; and John a Master Clockmaker who went to Dumbarton and ended up in Greenock. Buried with James Douglas 1669 are the first 3 infant children of George Douglas 1720 - James, Christian and Janet. James Douglas 1669 had a first marriage - to Isobell Couman 1681 in 1703 - children Cicilia 1707 and William 1708. His second marriage was in 1710 to Jonet Olipher (Oliver) 1687. They had John 1717, Mary 1719, George 1720, Margaret 1722 and James 1727.
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: rockhopper on Friday 14 February 20 02:20 GMT (UK)
Andrew Douglas 1681 Jedburgh (brother of James 1669) married a Jennet Jordain in about 1704 in Jedburgh and they had Robert Douglas 1707 who may have married a Jannet Scott in 1725. In about 1709 Andrew Douglas married a Couman (sister of the Couman who had married James 1669). They had Thomas (1) in 1710, Margaret 1711, Thomas (2) 1716 - he became a Gardener and married a Couman in about 1740. They had an Andrew Douglas in 1742; Andrew was their 4th child born in about 1720 - he had a son John in 1749; and James was their 5th child born in 1726. Andrew Douglas 1681 was a Soldier in Flanders in 1710 and when he returned to Jedburgh he went back to being a Gardener.
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: amac1210 on Friday 21 February 20 09:23 GMT (UK)
My James Douglas who married and died in Kilmarnock could somehow be connected. I'm not sure if he fits with the 1727 James. In any case, he was a gardener too and this suggests possible relation. I'm surprised we can't go further back with this family - as they seem to have been well connected. There is a portrait extant of John Douglas born in 1759 - you can find it easily via the internet. John Douglas born around 1640, is he the very earliest we can trace?
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: amac1210 on Friday 21 February 20 09:46 GMT (UK)
I found some further information online but not sure on their sources - https://trove.nla.gov.au/list?id=21722. As you can see it makes John Douglas born c.1640 the son of Andrew Douglas born c.1612. He in turn is son of Stephen Douglas born c.1567, son of Andrew Douglas born c.1538. This Andrew appears as son of another Andrew Douglas born c.1519, to a father named Archibald Douglas born c.1495. Archibald was son of Andrew Douglas who murdered Thomas Rutherford in Jedburgh Abbey, but who was pardoned by King James IV, along with the fellow conspirators. This Andrew appears to have been son of George Douglas born c.1441, in turn son of George Douglas born c.1419, son of John Douglas born c.1392. His mother was Marguerite Douglas born c.1376, a very young mother. She was finally the daughter of William Douglas, 1st Earl of Douglas. He fathered Marguerite and another child outside of marriage, with his brother-in-law's wife Margaret Stewart. The family no doubt links to Royal lines this far back, I've not looked at all the marriages. I can say Margaret Stewart has connections to the High Stewards and earlier Nobility of Scotland.
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 21 February 20 10:18 GMT (UK)
I found some further information online but not sure on their sources - https://trove.nla.gov.au/list?id=21722.
Hmmm. Without proper sources you are very wise to question this.
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: rockhopper on Friday 21 February 20 11:26 GMT (UK)
Trove info by me. Have a look at the Douglas Archives too. http://www.douglashistory.co.uk/history/Documents/Douglas%20-%20Bonjedward.pdf
http://www.douglashistory.co.uk/history/Documents/Douglas%20of%20Timpendean.pdf
http://www.douglashistory.co.uk/history/Documents/Douglas%20of%20Bonjedward%20and%20Timpendean-2013.pdf
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: amac1210 on Saturday 22 February 20 10:58 GMT (UK)
The Douglas Archives seem to accept this line, but I'm not sure precisely where they get the information from. I might contact them for more detail. It does look as though they are fairly confident about it though. My main line of inquiry is the James Douglas of Kilmarnock, the gardener, and whether he connects to Jedburgh. Seems to have hit a "brick wall" here, and the Archives people didn't have anything to add on this point.
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: rockhopper on Saturday 22 February 20 22:34 GMT (UK)
Have you looked at these -  Nisbet’s Heraldry, Heraldry of the Douglas, the Douglas Book, Parliament of Scotland historical records, Douglas Scott’s Hawick Word Book, Hawick Archives Hub, Scotlands People, the National Archives of Scotland, England - House of Lords and Commons Archives, State Papers of England, The National Library of Scotland especially the Manuscripts, UK Genealogy Archives - various, the Roll of Clans in Scotland, Annals of the Border Club (Tancred), Decisions of the Court of Lord Lyon in relation to Bonjedward and Timpendean, Decisions of the Lord High Treasurer of Scotland, papers and books on the Middle Marches, Electric Scotland, the Privy Council Register of Scotland, A Topographical Dictionary of Scotland, Gazetter for Scotland, the Scotland Gazette, the London Gazette, Royal Charters of Scotland, Royal Highland Society of Scotland - Members, the Gentleman’s Magazine (Scotland), Journals of the Scottish Meteorological Society, National Biography of Scotland, Scotland Fasti Ecclesiae, Kinross Museum Annals, Melrose Abbey Regalty Records, Jedburgh Abbey (D Douglas), Charters relating to Jedburgh Abbey, Jedburgh Abbey Gravestones, Scots Peerage (Wood), the Minto Charters, A2A Archives documents, Rampant Scotland Historical Battles, UK Battlefields Resource Centre, Letters and Papers to Kings of England, Letters to the Queen of England, The History and Antiquities of Roxburghshire (Jeffrey), Scottish - Bonds, Deeds, Instruments of Sasine, Percepts of Clare Constat, Leases and Granter’s Seals; Calendars of Border Papers, Papers of Archibald Jerdon of Bonjedward, Edinburgh Almanac, Register of Jedburgh, Lothian papers, Historical Manuscripts Commission of Scotland, Retours of Inquest, Great Seal Register of Scotland, Manuscripts of the Duke of Athole and the Earl of Home, Ancient Criminal Trials (Pitcairn), University of Sterling research papers - various, People of Medieval Scotland (POMS), St Andrews University history, Oxford University - people, and Edinburgh Apprentices? These are some of the references I referred to. Plus William Douglas asked me to write on Bonjedward and Timpendean.
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: rockhopper on Sunday 23 February 20 00:11 GMT (UK)
More references - An Account of the Valley of Rule and its Inhabitants (Tancred), Letters Patent, the Holinshed Texts or Chronicles, Landed Proprietors of Scotland; Barons, Laird and Chief Gentlemen of Scotland, Rolls of Freeholders in Jedburgh, Census Records (Jedburgh), Land Tax Rolls for Roxburghshire, Edinburgh Testaments, Peebles Testaments, the Douglas Emerald Charter, Declaration of Arbroath, Balliol Roll - includes Douglas, Jedburgh Council Burgess Rolls, Parishes of Scotland, Population of Jedburgh, Charters of Fue Farm, Douglas of Cruik history, Chancery Records - National Archives of Scotland, Sheriffs of Teviotdale and Roxburgh, English Martyrs - George Douglas was a Martyr, Buccleuch Papers and Numinents, Jedburgh Forest Club Members, Family Search, History of the Sufferings of the Church of Scotland... (R Wodrow), the Royal Collection, Art of Edwin James Douglas, Edinburgh Photography, Lairds and Gentlemen of the Eastern Borders ... (M Meikle), Returns of Lords and Heritages of Roxburghshire, old Scottish maps at the National Library of Scotland, Commissions by Mary Queen of Scots, Scottish Indexes, Froissant’s Chronicles, the Douglas Archives and History, Acts of General Assemblies of Scotland, Kirk of Scotland history, Clan Douglas of Australia, Douglas of Cavers history, Westminster Abbey Burials (Lady Margaret Douglas of Lennox and King James 1), Ancestry.co.uk records, Fisher’s Colonial Magazine ..., Colonial Magazine ..., Genealogical Memoirs of the family of Sir Walter Scott (C Rogers), Wardens of the Marches - Douglas, Douglas Crests including Bonjedward and Timpendean, the Douglas Heart, Glasgow Burgesses and Guild Brethren, Patrick Douglas - Priest and Musician, Rev. Walter Douglas of Bonjedward, Hugh Douglas of Dreghorn, William Douglas of Cunzierton, the Laird’s Houses of Scotland (R Strachan), Historic Environment - Scotland, Earls of Angus, Canmore, Scotland, Border Archaeology, Geograph.co.uk, the Battle of Teba, Pilgrimages to the Canterbury Cathedral - Douglas, Douglas art of Andrew Spratt, Tantallon Castle, Battle of Largs, Battle of Poitiers in France, Battle of Melrose, Siege of Lochmaben Castle, Barony of West Calder, the British Museum, the British Library, Notarial Instruments and Indentures (Scotland) and British Heritage Buildings.
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: rockhopper on Sunday 23 February 20 02:09 GMT (UK)
Plus - Douglas Castle - Douglasdale, St Brides Church in Douglas, Lanarkshire (not two by the name of St Brides), Battle of Bannockburn, Bonjedward Lands and Inheritance, Fray or Raid of Redeswire and Skirmish at Sclaterford. All the topics and references are valid for research on the Douglases of Bonjedward and Timpendean.
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: amac1210 on Sunday 23 February 20 10:48 GMT (UK)
Many thanks for all those. I don’t know how I would begin as regards finding out about James Douglas, gardener in Kilmarnock though. But these do help flesh out the background of the lines going farther back. Searching these sources seems somewhat professional too, accessing them is often difficult itself. I imagine most aren’t yet online?

But, at the risk of sounding pedantic, it is very important to know exactly where each fact is referenced. This is easy with Scotland's People records, but takes more effort for all those you mentioned. If I don't know which source is used to justify John Douglas born c.1640 being son of Andrew Douglas born c.1612, I'd be well justified in doubting it. The same goes for one or two other links in that line maybe.
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: amac1210 on Sunday 23 February 20 22:46 GMT (UK)
Navigated a bit through the pages you sent, rockhopper. Looks well sourced. The only missing link is whether we can identify John born c.1640, who became apprentice cordiner in Edinburgh, as the same man who fathered James born c.1669? Then, I wonder if we can find anything on James born 1727, whether he connects with James who married Janet Sim in 1745, Loudoun, Ayrshire?
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: rockhopper on Sunday 23 February 20 23:17 GMT (UK)
John Douglas c1640 an Apprentice Cordiner in Edinburgh in 1656 was the son of the late Andrew Douglas of Timpendean who had been an Indweller in Edinburgh. James Douglas born 12 September, 1669 was the son of a John Douglas, all it says ‘James son of John’. I have looked at the entry about three times. James had a brother Andrew Douglas who was also a Gardener in Jedburgh. James was a witness to the baptism of one of Andrew’s sons Thomas Douglas when he was away fighting in Flanders for a short period of time. From Family Search ages ago the father of Andrew Douglas was a John. I think too that there were other brothers who were Gardeners and their father was also a John. Also I think that I may have photographed Andrew’s baptism from the reel. William Douglas of the Douglas Archives and I came to the conclusion at about the same time that the Douglases I was looking at were from the Timpendean family. Edwin James Douglas who is in my broad family painted and near two of the horses which he painted the Ostrich feathers of Timpendean are on the horses’ blankets (two separate paintings). One can only go on what is available and John c1640 is the only bit of ‘evidence’. Where was your James born?
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: rockhopper on Sunday 23 February 20 23:27 GMT (UK)
I made separate excel spreadsheets for the Douglases of Bonjedward and Timpendean citing - date, name of the Douglas and the event - to work out the likely dates when each of the Lairds or Lords lived. Besides, Heraldry of the Douglases and Nisbet’s Ancestry on Timpeandean I had some of the information from Edwin James Douglas’ tree, a detailed list by Graham Sword who also belongs to the Timpendean family, lots of communication with Douglas Scott of the Hawick Word Book and the same with William Douglas of the Douglas Archives.
I did say at the start of my first paper - The Douglases of Bonjedward and Timpendean that this is - “This is an ongoing exercise and not a definitive paper”. The same applies to the rest on these two topics. If I documented every point or ‘fact’ of the discussion it would be messy and a distraction from the broader picture. However, I do include the references related to events etc.
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: amac1210 on Monday 24 February 20 00:55 GMT (UK)
That's very interesting. I am at a loss for James Douglas, gardener in Kilmarnock. He married Janet Sim - daughter of Francis Sim - in 1745. That was registered at Loudoun, Ayrshire. James is named as a gardener on the records available. If he is the same man as the James Douglas born in 1727 to James Douglas (1669-1750) and Jonet Olipher, then he'd have been 18 years old at time of marriage, to a 24 year old woman. Seems possible but perhaps unlikely?

The Clan Douglas Archives aren't sure, but didn't rule out this connection. In any case, we know some of the Jedburgh family did end up in Kilmarnock anyway, which might make it seem more likely that my James was related to them. His daughter Janet Douglas married a man named John Gow, who was soldier in the West Fencibles. Their son James Gow in turn married Christian Reid, and their child Jessie Gow married Andrew McLuckie - from whom I descend.
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: rockhopper on Monday 24 February 20 02:42 GMT (UK)
Have you had a look for him at Scotlands People - say born or baptised about 1720 in Jedburgh, Kilmarnock or Loudoun. Otherwise try Family Search. I think that it is important also to find out who his parents were.
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: rockhopper on Monday 24 February 20 03:07 GMT (UK)
From Family Search - but his father was John
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: rockhopper on Monday 24 February 20 03:38 GMT (UK)
Hearth Tax 1691 to 1695 at Scotlands Places. Copies of the original entries are there too. James Douglas gardiner I think is James Douglas 1669. (near the top). Not attached here but at the Townhead quarter there was a William Douglas gardiner, probably the brother of this James
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: rockhopper on Monday 24 February 20 03:42 GMT (UK)
Jedburgh Abbey Graveyard (from Hay Genealogy) - 126 Front Angel bones, skull, spade and shovel, hour glass Reverse Here Lyes James Douglass, Gardener and Burgess in Jedburgh d 30.4.1750 81 and James, Christian and Janet chn of George Douglass Gardn in Jedbh
They were the three infant children (who died young) of George Douglas and his wife Agnes ‘Annie’ Oliver
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: amac1210 on Monday 24 February 20 12:11 GMT (UK)
That's the problem - we can's just locate his parents by doing a Scotlands People search. There are a plurality of possible matches. What caught my eye is the fact he was a gardener; my query was in seeing how he might relate to the Jedburgh family, if at all. I don't know if we can ever be certain on this one, which is unfortunate. If we did locate the James Douglas born in 1727, that might rule out an identification with James Douglas wife of Janet Sim. Otherwise, we could see if the various possible matches reveal more lines of descent to us, and perhaps similar occupations?
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: amac1210 on Thursday 02 December 21 20:57 GMT (UK)
Just thought I'd add a note to this thread. My James Douglas, the gardener, was in actuality the son of William Douglas. I finally worked this out after contacting the Clan Douglas Archives, and looking more closely at the records. William was the son of John Douglas, born c.1640. This ties up the Douglas connection. I've also found the Haliburton family in this tree - John Douglas' grandfather was Stephen Douglas (1567-?) who married Jean Haliburton. Walter Scott documented her genealogy in detail, in his "Haliburton Memoirs".
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: rockhopper on Thursday 02 December 21 22:06 GMT (UK)
Hi - that all works out. It was probably info which I provided to the Douglas Archives. Sir Walter Scott was from the same Haliburton family   :)
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: amac1210 on Saturday 04 December 21 01:30 GMT (UK)
Yes, it's interesting to also find the Halyburtons married into the Earl of Loudoun's family. Everything starts to connect going this far back. I've found some connections with the Earls (the Campbell family). James Douglas married Janet Sim, and we find that she was the daughter of Francis Sim and Margaret Blackwood. The 1718 marriage for that couple reveals Francis to be linked to the 3rd Earl of Loudoun, Hugh Campbell; it also reveals that Margaret Blackwood was the daughter of John Blackwood, an "Officer" to the same Earl. John Blackwood married Sibylla Campbell, and one possible birth shows her as a daughter of Sir. George Campbell of Cessnock (1639-1704). Possibly illegitimate? This last connection isn't proven, but it seems interesting. Especially as Janet Douglas - daughter of James Douglas - marries another military man, John Gow. They then have grandsons named after persons like Francis Rawdon Hastings, who was very successful in the army, and who married the 6th Countess of Loudoun. Clearly, the Loudoun gentry were highly admired in the local community. I suspect James Douglas was the gardener to the Earl. Especially with their shared Halyburton ancestry. It would be a case of friends of friends, and being well-connected, marriage would have meant a great deal socially within a small town setting like Loudoun.

By the by, we're also cousins of Cardinal Basil Halyburton Hume - who descends from exactly the same folk! It's an unusual and rare surname. I purchased Sir. Walter Scott's genealogical memoirs, and he does the family a great service - we wouldn't know half of what we do without his work. It's often incredibly obscure, and the primary sources lie in medieval state papers etc.

There remains significant work to be done filling in the gaps regarding the Marshall family, and the Gladstanes family. Both married into the Douglas line, and it isn't at all clear how we might investigate them further. I don't like leaving lines untouched, since it leads to a bias in the genealogy. However, as mentioned previously, the primary sources are generally painstaking to get a hold of.

Of course, in descending from the Douglas and Halyburton families, we find people like Malcolm III and Henry I in the ancestry. Perhaps even Henry II, but a direct line isn't clear with him yet. As to Loudoun Earls, including their cousins like Sir. George Campbell, one prominent ancestor is King James IV. Which makes Mary Queen of Scots a 1st cousin, many times removed. That really made me think!
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: rockhopper on Saturday 04 December 21 06:32 GMT (UK)
Yes, and thanks. Those Memoirs are accessible online but I may buy them too. Such a good historical resource. Every now and then I look for Marshall and Gladstanes - the latter for us which one? Don’t forget that we are connected to James VI of Scotland and I of England through the line of Archibald Douglas, 6th Earl of Angus. My ancestry from James 1669 a Gardener and Burgess of Jedburgh, is through George 1720 also a Gardener and George’s son John 1759 who was a Master Clock Maker in Jedburgh in the late 1700’s. John Douglas and his wife Mary Newton/Nuton moved to Galston, Ayrshire in about 1800 so that he could work for the Campbell ‘Earl of Loudoun’ (on Clocks). The Halyburtons connect us to lots of interesting history. In fact we have more than one line of Halyburtons in common with the Sir Walter Scott - Author etc.
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: amac1210 on Saturday 04 December 21 22:53 GMT (UK)
You mention the Earl of Angus - I don't see any direct connection there? Our Douglas line goes to the Lairds of Timpendean, onto the Lairds of Bonjedward, and eventually connects with William Douglas, 1st Earl of Douglas. The Earls of Angus split off from our line in the distant past. They were also much more wealthy than our folks - we seem to have been guarding the borders.

For the Gladstanes, you find Katherine Gladstanes married to Andrew Douglas. This Andrew was the son of Archibald Douglas (Laird of Timpendean) and Ann Marshall. William Ewert Gladstone will no doubt connect very distantly to the Gladstane family, somehow.

The Olipher family were also another great Borders family - Jonet Olipher married your James Douglas. I wonder where John (1759) learned his clock-making. Was he self-made, or apprenticed to someone? That's where the history can get very interesting.

Anyway, must visit Timpendean Castle sometime... it's just a few walls and some stones now, but worth a look!
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: rockhopper on Sunday 05 December 21 00:15 GMT (UK)
Even though a distant past we are still related to the Earls of Angus. George Douglas 1st Earl of Angus (Douglas line) and Margaret Douglas of Bonjedward were full brother and sister. Both were children of William Douglas, 1st Earl of Douglas and his Mistress, Margaret Stewart, Countess of Angus (in her own right).

Lord Lyon – 1952

Major Henry James Sholto Douglas, representative of Douglas of Timpendean presented a petition to the Lord Lyon praying for matriculation in his name of the Arms appropriate to him as representative of the family of Douglas of Timpendean.

On 2nd January 1952, the Lord Lyon King of Arms, found in fact:
1. That the petitioner's descent through Andrew Douglas, 1st of Timpendean, younger son of George Douglas of Bonjedward, is satisfactorily established from Margaret Douglas, 1st of Bonjedward, natural daughter of William, Earl of Douglas, by Margaret, Countess of Angus, in favour of whose natural son, George Douglas, the said Countess resigned the Earldom of Angus.
2. That the issue of the said Margaret Douglas, 1st of Bonjedward, by her husband, Thomas Johnson, bore the name and arms of Douglas of Bonjedward.
3. That John Douglas of Bonjedward, in 1450, bore arms differenced by a label of three points charged with as many mullets, on what ground is not known.
4. That in a painted armorial pedigree seen by Alexander Nisbet (System of Heraldry, Vol. I, p. 79) the descent of Douglas of Bonjedward was incorrectly deduced from a third son of the Earl of Angus, which may have been induced by the difference in the seal of 1450.
His Lordship found in law:

“That the petitioner is entitled to matriculate arms on ancient user before 1672 and with a difference congruent to descent illegitimately through Margaret Douglas of Bonjedward from William, Earl of Douglas, and Margaret, Countess of Angus…

The Lord Lyon, King of Arms (Innes of Learney) stated that…

Reverting to Andrew Douglas, 1st of Timpendean, third son of George Douglas of Bonjedward, in 1479, the pedigree of this House of Bonjedward is carried back to Margaret Douglas, illegitimate daughter of William Douglas, Earl of Douglas, by Margaret Stewart, Countess of Angus, eldest daughter and heiress of Thomas Stewart, Earl of Angus. By a Countess of Angus the Earl of Douglas had also an illegitimate son, George, upon whom the Countess settled, by due feudal procedure, the dignity and estates of the Earldom of Angus, which have since descended in the line of that George, who duly became Earl of Angus, which line, following the events of 1455 and a grant of the forfeited duthus, Douglasdale, was taken to have become chief by settlement and came to be recognised, and bore arms, as chief of the name of Douglas.

The position of Margaret Douglas, the Earl of Douglas's illegitimate daughter by Margaret, Countess of Angus, is different, because no step was taken, as in the case of her brother, George, to bring her in as an heir of tailzie even to the Angus succession, and accordingly she remains in the status of the Earl's natural daughter, but her children took or bore the name of Douglas and, as we see, have done so for five and a half centuries. Her husband appears as Thomas filio Johannis, and by this person Margaret Douglas was mother of John Douglas of Bonjedward, ancestor of the Bonjedward and Timpendean line above mentioned. There is nothing to say who Thomas and his father, John, were. They may have been Douglasses, early cadets of the main line of Douglas, but on the other hand, the presence of a saltire (a diagonal cross – by me) in chief in the arms in one seal of Douglas of Bonjedward and Timpendean suggests that Filio Johannis was a latinisation of Johnston.

Anyway, I do not consider it necessary to investigate the origins of Margaret's husband further, since there is no doubt about the foundation of the house originating in Margaret herself and her grant of the lands of Bonjedward in 1404. There is evidence of use of the arms by members of the family prior to 1672, first in the person of John Douglas of Bonjedward, 1450, who bore the paternal coat of arms with a label of three points gules charged with three mullets argent for difference. This suggests to me that Margaret and John sought to hold themselves out as the next line in “remainder” to the Angus inheritance after issue of her father, Earl George (cf. also Nisbet's System of Heraldry, p. 79). (Margaret's father was Earl William - by me). The painting of the genealogical tree of the House of Douglas to which he refers shows that an effort was there made to deduce Bonjedward legitimately from a third son of Angus. In the light of modern knowledge this is evidently incorrect, and it probably just shows the result of the self-assumed label difference on the painter of the pedigree. That is what correct differencing by the Lord Lyon is to guard against…”

Any theories that Margaret Douglas and the Bonjedward line commenced from any of the Earls of Angus are incorrect suppositions. (by me).
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: rockhopper on Sunday 05 December 21 00:25 GMT (UK)
John Douglas 1759 was apprenticed to John McDonald, Master Watchmaker, Inverness for 7 years from 10 March, 1772. At the same time (10 March,1772) it was written that Alexander Douglas was apprenticed to John McDonald for 7 years from 12 June, 1769. 5 pounds for Alexander Douglas. Were John Douglas and Alexander Douglas closely related?
On 30 January 1793 Joseph Ellcot was an Apprentice Clockmaker with John Douglas 1759 in Jedburgh. 2 pounds premium paid. [British Clockmakers ad Watchmakers Appprentice Records 1710 – 1810 by Dennis Moore – Ashbourne Derbyshire: Mayfield Books 2003]. [Records also at the Guildhall, London].
On 31 October 1794 Thomas Hill was an Apprentice Clockmaker with John Douglas 1759 in Jedburgh. 3 years 6 months. 6 pounds, 6 shillings. [British Clockmakers ad Watchmakers Appprentice Records 1710 – 1810 by Dennis Moore – Ashbourne Derbyshire: Mayfield Books 2003]. [Records also at the Guildhall, London].
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: amac1210 on Sunday 05 December 21 15:35 GMT (UK)
Thanks for those citations. I suppose the research might turn to Alexander Douglas, to determine his relationship (if any) to John Douglas. Clock-making is an interesting profession to turn to. Trip to the local cemetery might be interesting too - as far as I know nobody has researched headstones for James Douglas (on my side) and his father William. I've never visited Loudoun, but it might be worthwhile next Summer - they've got an interesting battle site from the Wars of Independence too! Did they ever find a stone for John Douglas, born c.1640? I know they have one for his son James (+1750). I'm assuming the Lairds of Timpendean were buried in the same area, but that we've lost their memorials by now. Not unlikely that some of their earlier number might have been interred in local monasteries, and priories, in line with the practices of the medieval times. It'd be an interesting project for more research?
Title: Re: Jedburgh - Douglas Baptisms
Post by: amac1210 on Sunday 05 December 21 15:47 GMT (UK)
Melrose Abbey seems to hold William Douglas, the 1st Earl of Douglas - alongside the 2nd Earl and William Douglas, Lord of Liddesdale. I'm wondering if the Bonjedwards were interred at Jedburgh Abbey, and I'm not sure about the Timpendeans? Certainly, by the time of the Reformation, we'd have to imagine them being buried in the local kirk instead.