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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: jane k on Sunday 21 March 10 10:03 GMT (UK)
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I understand that apprentices became journeymen at the end of their apprenticeship - but what did journeymen have to do to become a Master? And would it be the same for all crafts?
Jane
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Hi
These links may help answer your question
http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/reflib-lexicon.php?letter=J&lang=EN&input_form=
Evie
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Those links answer most of your question however it is worth adding that a master would usually been elected to that position by his guild. That would either have been his trade guild or his town guild.
In most trades he was not allowed to take on apprentices until he had become a master, although as a journeyman he would help a master train apprentices and this was often required before he was elected. As a master he would either have his own business or be running a workshop for his employer.
David
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Thanks both of you - there seems to be lots of information about journeymen but not much about how they progressed! I think I need to read up more about the Guilds
Jane
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The London City Livery Companies controlled the less common trades countrywide but the others mainly in the London area. The documentation for most of these is available in the Guildhall Library although a few still have it at their own halls.
This documentation shows the progression through the various stages including to Freeman, to the Livery and finally to assistantship. This includes the minutes of the various meetings and the oaths which the members signed.
The local town guilds had similar processes and their documentation can sometimes be found at the Guildhall if it is still active, at a local library or museum or at the county record office. The best thing is probably to start at the last of these which should know what, if anything, still exists and where it is kept.
David
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Dave - thanks very much - that`s very helpful
Jane
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Those links answer most of your question however it is worth adding that a master would usually been elected to that position by his guild. That would either have been his trade guild or his town guild.
In most trades he was not allowed to take on apprentices until he had become a master, although as a journeyman he would help a master train apprentices and this was often required before he was elected. As a master he would either have his own business or be running a workshop for his employer.
David
Sorry to jump in on this but it's very late for me, and I want to bookmark for further progress.
David, how sure are you of those facts, because what I found was that a Master of a trade only had to employ apprentices to be called a Master.
Colin
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Although I am not sure about having to employ apprentices to be a master I am not sure how that disagrees with anything that I said. It may well be that he was expected take on an apprentice as part of his election to being a master. However I have a clear case in my own family history where a master craftsman was working with a single journeyman and no apprentice. This is evidenced by a diary in which the journeyman complained that he had for a long time been expected to do the jobs which should be left to an apprentice.
Even in the case where a master was running a workshop for an employer I would expect him to be in charge of journeymen and apprentices.
The apprentices which he took on would normally be allocated through the guild and so this may for some crafts be the way in which he was confirmed as a master.
The apprentices allocated by the poor house were probably a different matter but they were often apprenticed to jobs like being servants while I am restricting my comments to craft apprentices.
David
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Hi David,
My ancestor was a carpenter & joiner and he is also my brick wall as I can't find a birth or baptism for him. I was hoping that some apprenticeship details might throw some light on things, and part of my search involved delving through some records of the Guildhall of Durham (City). None of their business involved appointing apprentices, but the bulk of it was considering applications from local tradesmen, and certain other people, to become Freemen of the City. I could not find anything on becoming a Master of a particular trade either. In the absence of hard evidence, I have tried to use a bit of logic to make sense as to how they progressed. Please feel free to shoot holes in it, I will not be offended.
On completion of an apprenticeship a tradesman would be expected to complete a few years as a freelance Journeyman before starting up his own business. This brings me to how he would then become a master. In my ancestor's case, in 1841 there were unfortunately no descriptions of employment for his family. In 1851 he was a "Joiner master" and his 2 eldest sons were "joiners" and 2 younger sons were "app. Joiners". By 1861 he was a "Joiner & Cartwright", as were 2 sons who were still at home. Other cases follow a similar pattern, so I assume that the term Master refers to being a master to apprentices or men in his employ, and it was a transitory term.
Regards,
Colin
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Carpenters are a trade where I would not expect to find apprentices from Durham registered in London. However the City Livery Company of Carpenters has amongst its records lists of apprentice bindings and freedom admissions from 1533 to 1882.
I am of the opinion that becoming a freeman of a town or city guild was amongst other things a recognition that the tradesman was suitable to become a master and so have apprentices. I however cannot substantiate that view.
David
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It is a moot point, but probably of very little significance. What I was trying to find out was if there was a formal test or examination leading to the title of Master, and there didn't seem to be.
Incidentally, many of the applicants for Freemen were already shown as a master in their trade, so it is more likely that the title was a status booster and would give prospective clients more confidence in a good standard of workmanship.
Regards,
Colin
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When I started work I was given a card stating that I was a "journeyman electrician" and that was 1962 so does the practice still continue?
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There a certainly some crafts that still have the recognised stages of apprentice, journeyman and master.
It is interesting that in 1962 you were given that title without serving an apprenticeship. I think this explains why Colin and I have not been completely agreeing. I suspect that the precise status of craftsmen changed over the centuries and so titles which were strictly controlled back in the 16th century gradually became adopted titles and so we were both correct about our views on how a master obtained his status. We were just living in different centuries. It probably changed at different times for different trades and depended on whether it was in city, town or country.
David
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Hi Again.
I did go on to complete my apprenticeship, starting with N.G.Bailey and other electrical firms, when qualified I started with the MEB!
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Hi David,
I wasn't disagreeing with you, just offering a further possibility.
I've been checking on different lines on my mother's side as there were many generations of Tailors in Richmond, Yorkshire, but there was no rhyme or reason to the use of Master even for the same person in almost identical circumstances throughout different census years.
I'm now wondering if there might be something else that determined a Master. I think if a craftsman was eligible to be called a Master then he would declare it on a census, rather than downgrade himself to simple tailor, plumber etc., so could it be the ownership of the trade premises, or something like that, which affected the status?
Colin
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I am fairly certain owning his own premises was not a criteria as most of those in my tree seemed to rent their premises. It would seem that the critical criterion was running their own "workshop" even if that was within a larger business owned by someone else.
David
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Thanks David, I can go along with that.
I asked a few tradesmen and most didn't know, although two of them said it was by employing other tradesmen, but I could have no confidence in applying that explanation almost 200 years earlier as practices have changed quite drastically in recent years.
Regards,
Colin
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My Grate uncle was a cabnit maker but he was aslo called a master craftsman he was still working at the age of 93 3 years befor he passed away he told me he did a 5 year aprentaship and then had to produce a pece of furnature to become a jurneyman/craftsman then meny years he was invited to the gild hall and apointed a master craftsman for witch he hah to produce another pece
I my salf am a master masion but when i got my masters i was just presented with a scrool and i did not have to prove my skill is this the sign of the time where the gilds are just giving the name master craftsman for a sum of mony ( you can join the gild of master craftsman in the uk for a subscription)
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( you can join the gild of master craftsman in the uk for a subscription)
Remember when they started up, they phoned me up and asked me to join[for a fee] told them to get lost.
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I understand the master was entitled to employ apprentices. This was a form of pension for older years or declining health as they could profit from the work done under their supervision. I would imagine the master level could be applied for after so many years of work in the trade and being of 'good standing' and perhaps completion of a 'masterpiece'. Different trades with different requirements.....