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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: kiwicatz on Tuesday 23 March 10 07:48 GMT (UK)
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How to tell if a family is Jewish? The christian (!) names suggest they may be, and certainly by the time they got to Australia they had plenty of money, and all the neighbours in London (St Botolphe) had names like Cohen, Levi, Goldsmith?
And I can't find BMD records for most of them.
Regards
Jan
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Hi
A marriage after the start of civil registration (either in this country or Austalia) the certificate will indicate whether they married in a synagogue or whether they were just non-conformist. Many non-conformist families in particular favoured Old Testament names. There were large numbers of Jewish families in the east end of London but there were more families who were not Jewish living side by side with them. Some families Jewish or not were wealthier than others. Many Jewish families were extremely poor.
If you can't find BMDs (birth, marriages and deaths) that seems to indicate you are having difficulty finding the family after the start of civil registration 1st July 1837. If you can't find BMBs, baptisms, marriages and burials in Anglican parish registers, which are the main sources of parish registers on the web, that might just indicate they were non-conformist or it might indicate they were not Christian. Usually there is some knowledge in descendants if a family were once Jewish because obviously it means someone must have converted and that often means the rest of the family or some other family members didn't.
Regards
Valda
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Usually there is some knowledge in descendants if a family were once Jewish because obviously it means someone must have converted and that often means the rest of the family or some other family members didn't.
This is probably true in most cases, but I think my g.grandfather was Jewish, or had Jewish blood, but because I can't find his birth or earlier life/relatives, i.e. on census, I have no way of proving it one way or the other.
Lizzie
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Jan and Lizzie,
Please tell us the names and approximate dates and we'll take it from there.
Justin
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Hi
I think in fairness to Jan as this is her topic, it would be better if Lizzie began a separate one listing the details of the individual she wants a search for and any information found from any previous searches that might have been requested. If the individual is not from London this may not be the relevant board to place the topic on, in which case Lizzie could put a link on this topic so others can find it.
Regards
Valda
co-moderator London and Middlesex boards
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Hi Jan
I have come across similar names in my research and further investigation did indicate that they were Jewish. For most part, I have been unable to find any civil registrations as most of their bdm were recorded in their local synagogue. The only way I was able to find some indication of when they were born etc was by looking at the 1841 census.
jericho
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Hi Justin and Valda
I didn't want anyone to try to find my missing g.grandfather. So many people have tried, on here and elsewhere that I've given up on him for the time being and hope he just turns up by chance when I'm not looking. ;D
I'm sure if Jan wants to give some information Justin and others will try their best to help her.
Lizzie
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Jan and Lizzie,
Please tell us the names and approximate dates and we'll take it from there.
Justin
Hello Justin
I have Simon Marks, living in Birmingham, 1841, born abt 1803 'of foreign parts' - on a later census he is born in Poland. Also many Benjamins, in Birminham and also in London. Sarah Josephs b1811 Sheerness Kent m Abraham Benjamin sometime before 1821, by 1841 they were at St Botolphe, he is a Dairyman. Abraham's son Isaiah, b 1821 (London? can't find birth) married Elizabeth Harris b abt 1826, in 1849, and their first son, Phillip Harris Benjamin is born London abt 1850. The Benjamins all emigrated to Australia.
Sarah Josephs father was, I think, Jacob Joseps, b abt 1791 Birminham. Don't know who his wife was or if there were other children, but there may have been an Elizabeth Josephs, b abt 1803, who married Simon Marks.
Regards
Jan
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Hi
I think in fairness to Jan as this is her topic, it would be better if Lizzie began a separate one listing the details of the individual she wants a search for and any information found from any previous searches that might have been requested. If the individual is not from London this may not be the relevant board to place the topic on, in which case Lizzie could put a link on this topic so others can find it.
Some of the children were born in Shadwell and there are connections also in Stepney (and generally Middlesex)
Regards
Jan
Regards
Valda
co-moderator London and Middlesex boards
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Hello Jan,
I think it's a bit unlikely that Sarah married Abraham when she was under 10 years old. Was that a later second marriage?
Presumably, you know from Isaiah's marriage cert that his father was a dairyman.
I forgot to mention Isaiah and Elizabeth married in the Great Synagogue on 12 Dec 1949.
Justin
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All the surnames you mention, Marks, Benjamin, Harris, Joseph are extremely common in UK Jewish communities.
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Hello Jan,
I think it's a bit unlikely that Sarah married Abraham when she was under 10 years old. Was that a later second marriage?
Presumably, you know from Isaiah's marriage cert that his father was a dairyman.
I forgot to mention Isaiah and Elizabeth married in the Great Synagogue on 12 Dec 1949.
Justin
Justin I think there's something wrong there altogether, If Abraham was actually born in 1809, that means he would be 12 when Isaiah was born - maybe Abraham was Isaiah's older brother rather than father - And Elizabeth unknown was mother of them both - what do you think? If so How do I find their father? And what is the Great Synagogue and where is t
Regards
Jan
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Hello Jan,
I think we can rule out Abraham, b. 1809, and Sarah, b. 1811.
The Jewish Genealogicial Society of Great Britain (JGSGB) speculates that Isaiah was the son of
Abraham Benjamin, b. 1794 Whitechapel, son of Elias. He may also have been the father of the Elias Benjamin recorded in Shadwell High Street, Wapping.
Their mother has not been clearly identified but I would guess that she was called Sarah as both Elias (junior) and Isaiah named their first daughters Sarah.
You really should order the civil marriage cert for Isaiah and Elizabeth to establish the occupations of their fathers.
The Great Synagogue was one of London's oldest (founded 1620, rebuilt 1790), but it was sadly destroyed during WWII. It stood in Duke's Place, Aldgate.
I believe that the Benjamn family were long established members of the GS congregation. Isaiah was recorded as a 'privileged member' of the congregation. You can more about that here http://www.jewishgen.org/jcr-uk/susser/roth/chfive.htm
Elizabeth was the daughter of Philip Harris. Her Hebrew name was Brynah bat Uryeh ha-Levi, i.e. Brynah daughter of Uryeh, the Levite.
What had led you to the Kent and Birmingham connections?
Justin
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Hello Justin
I got to the Kent and Birmingham connections by working back from Isaiah and Elizabeth (nee Harris) from the Australian end.
Their oldest son was also Phillip, and they emigrated to Melbourne. I have newspaper reports with results from the Melbourne Jewish School 1876 (just found them tonight) that feature some of their children. My connection is that their son, Leopold Emmanuel Benjamin married a lady named Emma Gell, who was my grandmother's sister. Emma, by the way was of Scottish descent, and Presbyterian. I would love to know the how, when and why of that relationship. They lived a lot of their lives in Fiji. I have at this stage Isaiah and Elizabeth having between 8 and 12 children, but haven't proved them all yet.
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So was the jump a bit of a poke in the dark?
The only way to proceed back is to obtain that civil certificate.
There were three other Abraham Benjamins of the right age in London alone to have been Isaiah's father.
Who was living in St. Botolph's in 1841?
Justin
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Hi Jan and Justin
There were at least 72 people with the surname Benjamin living in St Botolph in 1841.
Here are the Abrahams of suitable age:
Abraham BENJAMIN b 1787
HO107 725 3 23 40
9 Fire Ball Court, St Botolph, Aldgate, Middlesex
Abraham BENJAMIN 54 Fruiterer
Aemilia 54
Lewis 13
Moses 11
Benjamin 9
All born in county
Abraham and Amelia are still alive in 1851, Fire Ball Court, occupation: General Dealer (HO107 1524 121 58)
Abraham BENJAMIN b1799
HO107 695 3 8 8
Rosemary Lane, St Botolph Aldgate, Middlesex
Abraham BENJAMIN 42 Grocer
Leah 33
Nancy 17
Betsy 15
Fanny 10
Julia 7
Isaac 3
All born in county
This Abraham is listed in Pigot 1836
Abraham & Leah are still alive in 1851, now in 4 Swallow Gardens, occupation: General Dealer (HO107 1546 335 33)
Abraham BENJAMIN b1801 (all ages rounded down on this page so he could have been born 1796-1801)
HO107 716 12 17 27
Swallow Gardens, St Mary, Whitechapel, Middlesex
Abraham BENJAMIN 40 Pencil Maker
Juliet 30 Parasol Maker
Maria 12
Joseph 16mths
All born in county
Abraham & Juliet are still alive in 1851, still in 17 Swallow Gardens, occupation: Pencil Maker (HO107 1546 338 38)
Abraham BENJAMIN b 1809
HO107 725 5 34 4
Gravel Lane, St Botolph Aldgate, Middlesex
Elizabeth BENJAMIN 73 Ind(ependent)
Abraham 32 Dairyman
Margaret Pugh 16 Servant
All born in county.
Note: no Sarah in the household. Possibly they did not marry until after 1841; they do not appear to have had any surviving children.
Abraham & Sarah are on their own in 1851 in 29 Turner St, MEOT Upper, Stepney, Middlesex, occupation: Dairyman (HO107 1552 268 19)
Isaiah is difficult to pin down apart from the 1851 census, PO directory for 1849 (outfitter, 47 Shadwell High Street) and Watkins directory (clothier and oilman, 47 Shadwell High Street). The only Isaiah Benjamin in 1841 of any age anywhere that I could find is a mistranscription of Isaiah BAMFORD in Belper, Derbyshire. So either he has been mistranscribed, missed off, not in the country or changed his name ;D Yes, that's really helpful, isn't it? ::)
Kind regards
Gaie
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Thanks for that Gaie.
Maybe forget these till I find out whether the other Benjamin families that emigrated to Australia at the same time as Isaiah and Elizabeth are connected to them - I'm pretty sure some are, but yet to prove it.
Regards
Jan
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Gaie,
Can you find Isaiah's supposed brother, Elias? He was apparently recorded as a servant in the house of Daniel Barnett and his wife Harriett, in Shadwell High Street, in the 1841 census.
Justin
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Hi Jan
I thought you could compare the occupation of Isaiah's father on the marriage certificate to those given in 1841/51, then you would know which one was his. I'm not sure how you are going to link Isaiah to anyone else without that information :-\ . When did they emigrate?
Justin, I'll pull up Elias's records again (I'd already found some yesterday, but IE decided to close on me before I'd transcribed anything ::) ).
Kind regards
Gaie
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Right, Elias:
There is another Elias BENJAMIN bc1825 but he first appears in 1841 in the house of Moses BENJAMIN 40 (glass dealer) St George, Tower Hamlets, as a cigar app(rentice) and is consistently in the cigar business in later censuses, so I’ve discounted him.
1841 HO107 703 8 4 3
High St, St Paul’s Shadwell, Middlesex
In the house of Daniel BARNETT, Tailor
Elias BENJAMIN 20 MS (male servant) born in county
1851 HO107 1550 329 68
New Gravel Lane, St Paul, Shadwell, Middlesex
Elias BENJAMIN 31 General Dealer, b City of London
Wife Mary 27 b City of London (Mary appears as ‘Sarah’ in 1871 then reverts to Mary in 1881; consistent in age and pob: Aldgate, Cof L)
1861 RG9 270 2 11
35 New Castle Street, Whitechapel, Middlesex (Elias remains at this address until at least 1891)
Elias BENJAMIN 40 General Dealer b Middlesex Stepney
1871 RG10 518 32 17
Elias BENJAMIN 50 Merchant’s Clerk b Middlesex Whitechapel
1881 RG11 443 40 27
Elias BENJAMIN 60 Collector (Clk) b Middlesex Whitechapel
1891 RG12 279 152 8
Elias BENJAMIN 71 Collector at Clothes Mt b Middlesex Mile End
Widower
Children to Elias through the censuses
Isaiah 1845 (seems to become Isaac in later censuses)
Raphael 1847
Sarah 1848
Lydia 1850
Clara 1852
Fanny 1854
Abraham 1856
Moses 1860 (Abraham and Moses do not appear after 1861 census)
John 1862
Possible marriage:
Dec 1843 London
Vol 2 Page 178
Elias BENJAMIN
Mary LAZARUS on same page
Jun 1844 London
Vol 2 Page 178 (yes, I know, same ref nos)
Elias BENJAMIN
Esther JESSURUN on same page (Elias son of Moses is found with an Esther in later censuses, so not this one)
Death:
Elias BENJAMIN
Mar 1897 Whitechapel
Vol 1c Page 197 aged 77
The other Elias with Esther is still alive in 1901 census.
Probable death:
Elias BENJAMIN
Dec 1901 Shoreditch
Vol 1c 50 aged 77
Kind regards
Gaie
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Thank you Gaie. Very thorough as ever.
I was wondering if the original return for Elias in the Barnett household in 1841 might also include Isaiah lurking somewhere. Or maybe a partially illegible name that has not been transcribed.
We know that Isaiah was living at 47 Shadwell High Street in 1851. I have a hunch that he was there in '41 too.
As you say Gaie, the only way to progress here is to order the marriage cert of Isaiah and Elizabeth to establish their fathers' full correct names and occupations.
Justin
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Ok, here's a possibility:
1841 Census
HO107 696 7 6 5
192 Ratcliff Highway, St George East, Middlesex (next door to Shadwell)
In the household of
Moses NATHAN 40 Slop Seller
and family, two servants and one other Journeyman
Isah BENJAMIN 15 Journeyman
All born in county
Slop seller: a dealer in cheap ready-made clothing, so right trade. Yes, I had to look it up, my mind was running rampant.... ::)
KR
Gaie
Added: Looking at old and new maps, is it possible that Ratcliff Highway ran into Shadwell High Street? Answered my own question; Greenwood's Map of London 1827 shows just that!
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Well done, Gaie. That looks pretty good to me. Would 19 years old have been rounded down?
Justin
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Hi Jan
I thought you could compare the occupation of Isaiah's father on the marriage certificate to those given in 1841/51, then you would know which one was his. I'm not sure how you are going to link Isaiah to anyone else without that information :-\ . When did they emigrate?
Hello Gaie
They emigrated between 1851 and I think 1855 - they were in UK on the 1851 Census and their daughter Isabella was born in Melbourne in 1855
I don't know exactly but there are a couple with 2 children who are the right age who arrived on the Marquis of Bute in 1853. There are no christian names mentioned. To see a passenger list you need to view the micrfiche in Melbourne, and I have no chance of doing that in the near future.
Regards
Jan
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Hi Jan
I've seen that passenger list already! London to Melbourne, arrival 15th December 1853. You're right, it just says Mr (26) & Mrs (24) Benjamin and two children, one male aged 3 and one female aged 1; BritishSubjects. The parents' ages are out a bit, but nothing to shout about :)
Justin, yes, in the 1841 Census ages were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest five years for those over the age of 15. This was not always applied and many pages show actual ages, but on that particular page all adults had ages of 15, 20, 25 etc so in this case Isah could have been anything between 15 and 19.
Kind regards
Gaie
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Well I got Isaiah and Elizabeth's death certificates today, (Isaiah is a 'Gentleman' on his) and Isaiah's says his father was Abraham Benjamin 'Traveller' and his mother Sarah Joseph.
Elizabeth's father was Phillip Harris, Merchant and her mother Catherine Moses.
Where does that take me? Not much further I think.
Except one sons second name is Asher, and another is named Alfred Elias.
Jan
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Jan,
The problem I see is that the information on a death cert is always second hand so to speak. The info may have been provided by somebody who never met Isaiah's or Elizabeth's parents, perhaps one of their Australian-born children.
When did Isaiah and Elizabeth die? Who were the informants?
I'm afraid the marriage cert may have been or more use.
The name Elias cropping up amongst Isaiah's children is a useful clue I would say. When was Alfred Elias born?
I shall see if I can find anything on Philip and Cathernine.
Justin
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Philip Harris was apparently a tailor and draper as well as a ship owner in High Street, St. Paul's, Shadwell (next to Wapping).
http://www.rootschat.com/links/08bg/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/08bg/)
Justin
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Abraham Benjamin, the grocer of St. Botolph, married Leah Joseph (!!) on 9 Dec 1838 in the Great Synagogue. That was Abraham's second marriage!!
The death of a Sarah Benjamin was registered in Whitechapel in Q3 1838.
There is a very distinct possiblity that Sarah and Leah were in fact sisters.
I suspect that Abraham had an elder brother called Asher (b. c1780), who can be identified as the son of Eli, the cake man (Elias, the cake seller ?). Asher was married twice, to two sisters, who were most likely his cousins -- Judith and Nancy Benjamin. These women were daughters of a Ralph/Raphael Benjamin, a clothes saleman.
You can find a lot of the Benjamin family burials in Australia at this site:
http://ajhs.info/cemetery/
Justin
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Philip Harris was apparently a tailor and draper as well as a ship owner in High Street, St. Paul's, Shadwell (next to Wapping).
http://www.rootschat.com/links/08bg/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/08bg/)
I went from here to the 1841 census, and although the date of birth for Henry is different, all the others are very much the same, and Elizabeth ids there also. I wonder whu she isn't in the burial list as adaughter, she would still have been in England in 1844.
What do you think?
Jan
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Jan,
The problem I see is that the information on a death cert is always second hand so to speak. The info may have been provided by somebody who never met Isaiah's or Elizabeth's parents, perhaps one of their Australian-born children.
When did Isaiah and Elizabeth die? Who were the informants? The name Elias cropping up amongst Isaiah's children is a useful clue I would say. When was Alfred Elias born
I have now found them on the 1841 census. The informant on their death certs was their son Henry, who was 31 at the time. Alfred Elias was born Melbourne 1860. There was also a son names Marcus and a daughter Isabella. Isaiah died27 Aug 1890 at his home at 9 Albert Road, South Melbourne, and Elizabeth died 19 December 1892, also at her home.
Jan
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Well I got Isaiah and Elizabeth's death certificates today, (Isaiah is a 'Gentleman' on his) and Isaiah's says his father was Abraham Benjamin 'Traveller' and his mother Sarah Joseph.
Elizabeth's father was Phillip Harris, Merchant and her mother Catherine Moses.
Where does that take me? Not much further I think.
Except one sons second name is Asher, and another is named Alfred Elias.
Jan
Hello Jan,
I thought I would add to this topic by letting you know I have Asher Benjamin in my family, brother of Isaiah. On Asher's birth certificate dated 1837, his parents are Abraham Benjamin and Sarah Joseph, their residence is given as 27 Rosemary Lane, Aldgate. Abraham's occupation is Grocer.
With regard to the children of Isaiah and Elizabeth as far as I am aware all of their nine children were born in Australia.
Ozzie
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Hello Ozzie
(Real name or where you live?)
I have Isaiah and Elizabeth's 2 eldest children being born in Shadwell, Phillip Harris Benjamin in 1850 and Sarah Benjamin in 1852. The family emigrated in Dec 1853. I have them as having 11 children altogether, one being still born.
Do you happen to know if Abraham married twice?
Would you be interested in sharing your info about Asher, and do you have birth and death dates and any other info Abraham and Sarah?
Regards
Jan
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Hello Ozzie and Jan,
Ozzie - do you have any independent evidence to show that Asher (b. 1837) was Isaiah's brother?
Jan - I missed one of your questions a while back. Why was Elizabeth not listed amongst the children of Philip and Catherine Harris in Shadwell. I imagine the list on the cemeteryscribes site was derived from the 1851 census, by which time Elizabeth had married and moved out.
Can we determine at what point Abraham Benjamin became a commercial traveller?
Leah Joseph (Abraham's second wife) was the daughter of Samuel. She was born in about 1804 in Whitechapel.
Justin
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Hello Ozzie
(Real name or where you live?)
I have Isaiah and Elizabeth's 2 eldest children being born in Shadwell, Phillip Harris Benjamin in 1850 and Sarah Benjamin in 1852. The family emigrated in Dec 1853. I have them as having 11 children altogether, one being still born.
Do you happen to know if Abraham married twice?
Would you be interested in sharing your info about Asher, and do you have birth and death dates and any other info Abraham and Sarah?
Regards
Jan
Hi Jan,
I believe Abraham did marry twice, I have a record of him marrying Leah Joseph in 1838 and the death of Sarah in 1838 is something I still have to pursue. Details of Abraham and Sarah are something, I will chase up sometime this year. Unfortunately I no longer have my Jewish distant relative to help me so I am struggling to wade through the paperwork she left me. Suffice to say Isaiah and Asher have the same parents at the same address so I have no doubt they are brothers, oral history also confirms this fact.
I did have Phillip Harris and Sarah Benjamin in my database for Isaiah and Elizabeth when I checked this morning, I did a quick mental head count last night before I contacted you, I don't have a record of a stillborn child though. Two of the Australian born children died young - Nathaniel aged 1yr and Marcus 2 months of age.
Asher first came to Australia at age 19 and his occupation was "traveller". The Benjamin family set up businesses in New Zealand at some stage and Asher travelled between Melbourne and NZ frequently. He and his wife lived in NZ for a period of time but I cannot remember how long at this point in time.
I know there was a Benjamin Bros. newsagency in Victoria, can't remember the address but it is on a piece of paper in my file. Will let you know when I find it.
Hope this is of some help to you, I will start going through my paperwork to see what else I have hidden away.
Ozzie
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I thought due to a Star of David gravestone on a family grave, but in the graveyard of a CofE church, that there was a Jewish connection on m y mother's side, reinforced by a lot of Old testament names for children of both sexes. Now it looks likely that there is some connection into the gypsy community, though my family has lived in the village concerned for over 300 years!
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Hello Jan,
Asher and his family lived in NZ between 1863 and 1873, 7 of their eight children were born there, the eldest was born in Melbourne.
Ozzie
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Hello Ozzie and Jan,
Ozzie - do you have any independent evidence to show that Asher (b. 1837) was Isaiah's brother?
Hi Justin,
The only evidence I have is Isaiah's death certificate and Asher's birth certificate both state their parents were Abraham Benjamin and Sarah Joseph. Unfortunately Isaiah was born before civil registration.
There is also oral history, a relative still living, had a lot of contact when young, with Asher's son Isaiah who often spoke of his uncle Izzy and stories Isaiah shared with him about his uncle and father.
Ozzie
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Hello,
I have managed to link Isaiah to Elias Benjamin (1820-1897); they were partners in an outfitters business in Shadwell (see attached PDF file).
The PO directory of 1844 still listed Isaiah as an outfitter of 47 High Street, Shadwell. By 1849, he was a clothier and oilman at the same address.
Abraham's father appears to have been the son of an Elias, who was himself the son of Asher 'the cakeman'. An early burial register recorded that Elias was buried on 27 Dec 1801 in Spitalfields. His wife, unnamed, was buried on 4 Apr 1808. I shall check where the cemetery might have been.
I would tentatively speculate that Asher cakeman was the son of an Isaiah, perhaps Isaiah son of Benjamin (i.e. Yeshiyahu ben Binyamin).
Abraham's older brother, Asher (named after the deceased grandfather), concluded a seven-year apprenticeship under watchmaker Lewis Casper (costing £12) on 10 Jun 1803.
Justin
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Justin and Ozzie
Great to take this further. Ozzie your post perhaps explains how Isaiah's son Leopold Emanuel met my relative - she lived in Auckland at the time.
Ozzie, did you also know about the Fiji connection? I did know that Nathaniel and Marcus died young, but I found a birth notice for a stillborn daughter in 1870 in the Melbourne Argus. Do you have any details for where Asher lived in NZ and can you tell me his wife's name.
Jan
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Eli ,the Cakeman had a daughter called Elizabeth Benjamin ,Elizabeth married David Davis,son of Moshe Datchya/Dashy ,and Esther in 1810.David was brother to my my Great x 3 Grandfather ,Simon Davis who lived in Church lane,Whitechapel between 1841 and 1861.
Does anyone have information about the Benjamin family?
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Hi there,
I may be able to help with some information regarding my relatives.(Benjamin's in Nz) Some of which you have mentioned here. What exactly would you like to know?
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I would like any information possible about especially my aunt and her husband -what the business was in Fiji and how long they lived there and did they return to NZ or Australia. Where are they buried - Fiji??
Regards
Jan