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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: findem on Saturday 27 March 10 04:50 GMT (UK)
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Could someone please tell me if there is such a place as Drayton in Middlesex, I can't locate it.
I am reseaching my wife's family tree, a possible ancestor Thomas Hastings was, according to the 1851 Census for Islington, born in Drayton, Middlesex, aged 24 and staying/lodging with a Warner family. Ref 3 H.O. 107/1501 image 40.
I have a horrible feeling this is going to be another brick in the wall.
Regards.
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There's certainly a West Drayton, .
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Hi
West Drayton is now in the London Borough of Hillingdon right on the western edge of Greater London. It is an area north of Heathrow Airport.
Carolyn
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There's also 'Drayton' near Ealing, type "Drayton, Ealing" into Google maps for the results
Dawn
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I googled a map of Isleworth. Isleworth/Drayton/Ealing are close together;
Possible Christening from IGI, Extracted;
Thomas HEASTINGS, 30 July 1826, Isleworth, London, England
Parents, JOHN and LYDIA
John HASTINGS married Lydia EVERETT, 24 April 1820, Isleworth, London
Maybe totally unrelated but worth posting just in case it fits.
Trish :)
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Thank you all for your input, it is very much appreciated.
The reference to Hillingdon by casram gives a glimmer of a clue. The Thomas Hastings I'm searching for married Caroline Read a widow nee Hill, 11 May 1862 at St Barnabas, Chelsea, their first three children were baptised at Islington but the fourth was baptised 1953 at St John the Baptist, Hillingdon, the remaining seven children were baptised in several other parishes. The Islington baptisms coupled with the Hillingdon baptism looks encouraging, also the Isleworth baptism and marriage although I'm a tad concerned Thomas and Caroline don't appear to have named children John and Lydia. I had found these Isleworth references on the IGI but virtually discarded them, but with this new info they look very interesting, so thanks Trish for bringing them to my attention.
This family were all over the place with the Census places of birth for the children and where they were baptised. In the 1861 Census the first child was said to be born in Islington and the remainder in Shoreditch in the 1871 all were said to have been born in Islington.
As for Thomas & Caroline they had four children before marrying :o , a trial run I suppose :)
At the moment I'm not quite sure what to do next but I'm sure after some deliberation something may occur to me!!
Anyway thanks again for your time and effort.
Regards.
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Just found a few more children for this family, it is now clear they had 6 children before marrying, probably something related to Caroline's first marriage, like waiting to find proof the first husband had died!
Regards and thanks again.
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Thomas names his father as Jonathan on his marriage to Caroline. He was a labourer.
St John the Baptist, Hillingdon
1845 Jun 8
Thomas, s/o Jonathan & Elizabeth HASTINGS, Hillingdon, Brickmaker, aged 17 years
Sarah, d/o Jonathan & Elizabeth HASTINGS, Hillingdon, Brickmaker, aged 14 years
St Paul, Hammersmith
1826 May 14
Emma Esther, d/o Jonathan & Elizabeth HASTINGS, Hammersmith, Labourer
Jonathan Edmund, s/o Jonathan & Elizabeth HASTINGS, Hammersmith, Labourer
Ian C
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Hi Eyesee
Thanks for that info, at the moment I'm on not on my own computer so I can't check my records, off the top of my head the Brickmaker reference rings a bell.
I'll come back later when I've checked it all out.
Regards and thanks.
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Wow Ian, excellent. I looked for christening up to 10yrs after birth but 17yrs after is incredible.
Under HARLING, this may be them ???
1841 Census
Hillingdon, Middlesex
HO107/656/4/Hillingdon
Johnathan, 50, Brick m, No
Elizabth, 50, No
Emanuel, 20, No
Johnathan, 10, Yes
THOMAS, 8, Yes
Sarah, 5, Yes
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1841
Hillingdon, Can't make out address
Jonathan HASTINGS, 50, Brickmaker, No
Elizabeth HASTINGS, 50, No
Emmanuel HASTINGS, 20, Brickmaker, No
Jonathan HASTINGS, 10, Yes
Thomas HASTINGS, 8, Yes
Sarah HASTINGS, 5, Yes
HO107/656/4/Hillingdon/Middlesex/ED10/26/45
The IGI has a Jonathan HASTINGS born Hatfield near Doncaster in Yorkshire, who marries an Elizabeth in 1808, which could be the parents.
Emmanuel HASTINGS, when he marries Matilda BOLTON, on 15 May 1842 at St John the Baptist, Hillingdon, names his father as Jonathan HASTINGS, Labourer
Jonathan Edward in 1853 named his father as Jonathan HASTINGS, Labourer
1851
2 Anglia Gardens, Islington East
Emanuel HASTINGS, head mar 30, Brickmaker, born Bucks, Marlow
Matilda HASTINGS, wife mar 28, born Hillingdon
Henry HASTINGS, son 8, born Bucks, Denham
Willm HASTINGS, son 6, born Mddx, Hayes
Emmanuel HASTINGS, son 3, born Hillingdon
James HASTINGS, son 1, born Mddx, Islington
Emma Esther ?? sister mar 28, born Mddx, Hammersmith
John Joseph ?? son unm 2wk, born Mddx, Islington
Thomas HASTINGS, brother unm 21, Labourer, born Mddx, Hammersmith
+ a lodger
HO107/1502/680/80
Emma Esther HASTINGS married John PRINCE, at St John the Baptist, Hillingdon on 20 Aug 1843. Her father named as Jonathan HASTINGS, Labourer.
Ian C
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Have I got some cross checking to do!
Regards.
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Don't know if Caroline had any children with her first husband James READ.
She appears to be back home with her parents Daniel and Charlotte in Chelsea in 1851, listed as unmarried aged 21 - HO107/1473
/510/19
If this is her it might suggest she split with her first husband, plus the fact that she did not marry Thomas until 1862, was that Mr Read was still alive, and still legally her husband.
Ian C
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Hi Ian,
I've just finished (I think) rounding up the children of Thomas George & Caroline Hastings, of 11 known children 7 were born before marriage and 4 after. Like you say it would appear that James and Caroline split up, I thought I had found a burial for James Read a few days ago but darned if I can find the piece of paper I wrote the details on, so back to the drawing board. The problem is that in the last week or so I've been on a roll with my wife's line, I think I'll spend today collating the gathered info and permanently recording the details in the correct places.
It's strange that Caroline was listed as unmarried, perhaps it was a little porky to cover any embarrassment, they may have considered that it wasn't really any of the Enumerator's business anyway.
I haven't yet got round to checking if there were any children from the marriage with James Read, I do know that all the children appearing on Censuses while Caroline was with Thomas, were children of Thomas and Caroline. Although that doesn't rule out any children that may have been left with James, his parents or Caroline's parents etc.
Thanks for the input, it is appreciated.
Regards.
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Hi,
I've had a look for children of James & Caroline REID and found what appears to be two families;
Mary Ann Born 14 Jun 1847 & Bap 22 Oct 1848 at St Luke Islington, abode Cowper Street.
James Bap 12 May 1850 at St Mary Haggerstone, abode Trafalgar Road.
Henrietta Caroline Born 18 Nov 1863, Bap 13 Dec 1863 at St Giles without Cripplegate, abode 1 Chapel Street.
The father's occupation for all three children was Confectioner, that family looks OK except for Henrietta being born a year after Caroline married Thomas Hastings.
There were also two children of James and Caroline REED, James a Chimney Sweep in both cases.
Elizabeth Born 25 Aug 1863 & Bap 29 Jan 1865 at St Katherine Cree, City of London, abode Cree Church Lane.
James Born 13 Jan 1865 & Bap 29 Jan 1865 at St Katherine Cree, abode Cree Church Lane
I suppose the two families could be one and the same but it would have been a dramatic career change for James, at the end of the day I'm thinking perhaps Caroline Hill who married Thomas Hasting had no children by James Read.
Regards.
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This is my Hastings line as well. I don;t think the Caroline Hill that marries a Read is the same Caroline Hill that married Thomas G. Hastings.
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I have Thomas Hastings marrying Caroline Hill 18 May 1862 at St Barnabas Chelsea Middlesex, is that what you have?
I've checked my notes but there is no mention of Caroline being a widow, however to be on the safe side before I write James Read/Reid off I'll recheck the marriage entry, when I can, for Thomas and Caroline to make doubly sure there's no mention of Caroline being a widow.
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I don't have a marriage date for Thomas and Caroline but the Caroline Hill / John Read marriage that I found was in Bristol which is way far away from the area we are concerned with. Thomas and Caroline started having children in 1851 so I think your wedding date may be off.
I have Thomas Hastings marrying Caroline Hill 18 May 1862 at St Barnabas Chelsea Middlesex, is that what you have?
I've checked my notes but there is no mention of Caroline being a widow, however to be on the safe side before I write James Read/Reid off I'll recheck the marriage entry, when I can, for Thomas and Caroline to make doubly sure there's no mention of Caroline being a widow.
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1862 Marriage has Caroline as a Widow, Father Daniel Hill, Labourer.
1861 Census
Thomas Hastings, 33
Caroline Hastings, 31
Elizabeth Hastings, 9
Thomas Hastings, 7
Henry Hastings, 5
Caroline Hastings, 3
Charlotte Hastings, 3mths
GRO Birth Index with Mothers maiden names;
HASTINGS, CHARLOTTE JANE, Mothers mn HILL***
GRO Reference: 1861 M Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 200
+ these 2 have Mothers mn as HILL;
CAROLINE SARAH 1858
HENRY 1856
Then we have;
HASTINGS, THOMAS, Mothers mn READ***
GRO Reference: 1853 D Quarter in THE ISLINGTON DISTRICT Volume 01B Page 235
And finally;
HASTINGS, ELIZABETH EMMA, Mothers mn HILL***
GRO Reference: 1852 D Quarter in THE ISLINGTON DISTRICT Volume 01B Page 238
Marriage Reg FreeBMD;
Dec 1847, Kensington 3 244
Caroline Hannah** HILL and James READ on same page
So married London.
Nothing seems to be on line for the Marriage.
CAROLINE HANNAH Hill christened 8 Aug 1830, St Luke, Chelsea, London.
Birth 28 June 1830
Parents DANIEL/CHARLOTTE
Trish :)
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1851 we have;
Daniel Hill, 60
Charlotte Hill, 55
Thos Hill, 24
Caroline Hill, 21
Sear Hill, 12
Thos Hill, 2, Son***
1861 Thomas Hill is a Grandson.
This may be a red herring but will post just in case;
HILL, THOMAS ROBERT, Mothers mn READ****
GRO Reference: 1849 M Quarter in HACKNEY UNION Volume 03 Page 227
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I did not look very deeply into the Hill family but relied on others. The fact that others said Caroline was a "Hill" from Chelsea and the census records I saw said Thomas' wife Caroline was from Chelsea was enough confirmation for my purposes.
I was a just going through my old papers and generally what I did to make sure I had the right people was follow families through the census. I do not have an 1851 census in my stuff but in the 1861 census Thomas and Caroline's eldest child is Elizabeth age 9 followed by Thomas age 7 and then Henry, Caroline and Charlotte at 3 months. In the 1871 census there is no Elizabeth as she married in 1870. There is no Henry at home but Charlotte is there followed by the children born after 1861.
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Sorry I didnt welcome you to Rootschat DougTCanada.
You can check the Gro Index for the Mothers mn for children born after the 1861 Census.
Its a fairly new site, you have to register but its free to search.
www.gro.gov.uk
findem should reply to you soon but hopefully I have been some help.
Following others Trees can lead you astray!
Unfortunately there is nothing on line for the 1847 Marriage .
Trish :)
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Thank you!
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Just to add to the confusion, the 1851 census has Thomas Hill as a "son" and not a "grandson" as in 1861. Actually the family name is spelled wrong on the census - as "Hile" but it is the same people.
If it was our Caroline who married James Read in Kensington in 1847 she may have been a widow in 1849 as there is a James Read who died in Kensington in 1849. Age 42 . Could have been a cradle robber ;)
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To continue a conversation regarding Caroline Hill which was going on in another thread...
Glad this topic was resurrected, it prompted me to try again to find the Hill grandparents of Caroline Hannah Hill. This time I believe I might have found them, a Daniel and Sarah Hill who had five children baptised 1783 to 1791 in Beddington Surrey, one of them a Daniel Hill born 1788 who might be the father of Caroline.
Unfortunately it wont be an easy task to link these possible grandparent, Daniel and Sarah Hill to Caroline's parents Daniel Hill and his wife Charlotte Louisa Russell because of the five children the possible grandparents, Daniel and Sarah, baptised, only the one named, as you would expect, Daniel, matches any names used by Daniel and Charlotte Hill. Although Caroline's parents Daniel and Charlotte did name a daughter Sear, not sure if that is a variant of Sarah.
When Caroline's parents, Daniel Hill and Charlotte Russell, married at St George Hanover Square, Daniel was stated as being of Wandsworth, Wandsworth looks to be around 8 miles from Beddington Surrey.
Do we know for sure that Charlotte was a "Russell"? Could it be "Webb"? and that Caroline Hannah Hill's grandmother was named "Sarah"? I had not bothered with finding Caroline's parents up to now and a quick search turned up a few candidates.
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This brought me back to the 1851 and 1861 Census again. Earlier in this thread It was mentioned that in the 1851 Census Thomas Hill age 2 was listed as a "grandson". I found a different transcription of the census in which the last name was misspelled as "Hile" and Thomas as listed as a "son". I haven't seen the original so don't know whether "grandson" of "son" is correct.
In that same census Daniel's (age 60) birthplace is given as Hillingdon, Middlesex and Charlotte's (age 55) as ",London".
In the 1861 Census Daniel's birthplace is given as "London...," while Charlotte's is given as "Hillington, Middlesex". In both cases the "London" entries would probably be problems with transcription and maybe looking at the originals would be helpful.
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Charlotte gave her birthplace as "Hillington". A Charlotte Webb married Daniel Hill on June 29 1911 in Hillington.
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Charlotte Webb married Daniel Hill 29 Jun 1811 St John the Baptist Hillingdon
:)
(FHL #496694 )
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Just doing a search on Ancestry using a free account so I can't see all the info. Someone has them in their family tree and it would be interesting to see the documentation...
In the 1861 Caroline's sister Sarah is a widow named Sarah Goodchild living with her patents Daniel and Charlotte Hill along with her two young kids - Joseph and Sarah Goodchild.
In the family tree...
NAME: Sarah Hill
BIRTH: Abt 1839 - Middlesex, England
MARRIAGE: 27 May 1855 - Middlesex
PARENTS: Daniel Hill, Charlotte Webb
SPOUSE: Joseph Goodchild
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27/5/1855 St Stephens Parish Hammersmith
Joseph 23 Bach Labourer 17 Bannister Cotts William Goodchild (Dec) Farmer
Sarah 18 Spinster ------ 18 Bannister Cotts Daniel Hill Labourer
Both signed
Witnesses Henry Otway & Charlotte Pemberton (X)
From the Register
Ray
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Thanks Ray!
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To answer a couple of earlier questions;
" Sear, not sure if that is a variant of Sarah."
Yes it is.
Looked at actual image of 1851/Census
1851 Thos Hill age 2 (1849) born Northolt, Middlesex, is down as Daniel/Charlottes Son*
(As Charlotte is 55 not likely)
They are living at 2 College Cottages, Chelsea.
1861 Census
1 Eden Place, Chelsea
Daniel HALL, 70, Head, Mar, Labourer on Roads, born Thames Sheer (Street), London
Charlotte Hall, 65, Wife, Mar, Laundress, born Hillington (Hillingdon), Middlesex
Sarah Goodchild, 24, Daug, Mar, Laundress, born Chelsea
Joseph Goodchild, 3, Grandson, born Chelsea
Sarah Goodchild, 1, Granddaug, born Chelsea
Thomas HILL, 12, Grandson, born Northold, Middlesex**
I then cant find Thomas until 1901 Census;
Thomas Hill, 52, Head, Mar General Labourer, born Northolt, Middlesex
Elizabeth Hill, 48, Wife, Mar, born Deptford, London
Walter Hill, 19, Son, General Labourer, born Deptford
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Ok think I have found him 1881;
37 Hamilton St,
Deptford St Paul, London
Thomas Hill, 32, Head, Mar, Bricklayers Laborer, born Northholt, Middlesex
Susan Hill, 28, Wife, Mar, born Deptford, Kent
William C. Hill, 1, Son, born Deptford, Kent
Susan Young, 3, Visitor, born Kensington, Middlesex
Other than that I cant confirm any Marriages for him.
HILL, WILLIAM CHARLES, Mothers mn YOUNG
GRO Reference: 1879 J Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 01D Page 925
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I am on board with Thomas Hill being the son of Caroline Hill and James Read. Do we have enough info to say that Charlotte was Charlotte Webb? A record of Caroline's mn at birth would be nice but don't know if such a record exists.
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Have to get back to you signing out and away for a few days :)
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Thanks Trish!
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OK Doug here is the reply you posted today 23 Jan 2018 on the other topic, I agree with you it would be best to discuss the Hill family in this topic, thanks for giving my memory a jog.
“We should be correct in assuming the parents of John Hastings b.1758 were William and Mary whose death was recorded in the Little Marlow Parish Register in 1791 and 1796 (from the information earlier in this thread). They may or may not be from Cookham originally but by the process of elimination they most likely are.
As you pointed out, just going by the process of elimination, the best candidate for his grandfather is William Hastings baptized 1727 in Hagbourne - Father William, Mother Elizabeth.
There is one more candidate in William Hastings baptized 1728 in Hagbourne - Father John, Mother Mary.
This John and Mary had at least 8 children in Hagbourne between 1727 and 1739.
William and Elizabeth Hastings may be far more interesting as they had just 2 born in Hagbourne. William Hastings b. 1726 and William Hastings b. 1727. The one born in 1726 likely died. Then they disappear but a couple of years later a William and Francis Hastings appear in Cookham and have at least 3 children between 1731 and 1736.
Possible scenario where William's first wife Elizabeth passes away after the birth of William b. 1727. He then meets and marries Frances in Cookham bring along his son William b. 1727 which gives a nice explanation as to how William came to live in Cookham and marry Mary and have a son - our John b. 1758.
Sounds good but how to prove lol.“
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You may want to scroll back a couple of pages Findem as we have been discussing this Caroline and Daniel and Charlotte for a couple of days here. Basically, I have been making the case for Charlotte's maiden name being Webb.
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In answer to your comments:
You stated: “We should be correct in assuming the parents of John Hastings b.1758 were William and Mary whose death was recorded in the Little Marlow Parish Register in 1791 and 1796 (from the information earlier in this thread). They may or may not be from Cookham originally but by the process of elimination they most likely are.
As you pointed out, just going by the process of elimination, the best candidate for his grandfather is William Hastings baptized 1727 in Hagbourne - Father William, Mother Elizabeth."
I agree with you on that, at the moment my Family Group Sheets for William and Mary and William and Elizabeth have at the top of the page in red print "Possible ancestors" plus an explanatory note.
You: William and Elizabeth Hastings may be far more interesting as they had just 2 born in Hagbourne. William Hastings b. 1726 and William Hastings b. 1727. The one born in 1726 likely died. Then they disappear but a couple of years later a William and Francis Hastings appear in Cookham and have at least 3 children between 1731 and 1736.
Again I agree that this couple William Hastings and his wife Elizabeth Brooks are the most likely couple to be parents of the William Hastings who married Mary Overshott in 1754 at Cookham. That William and Mary were most likely the parents of the John Hastings baptised 1758 at Cookham who married Mary Mitchell in 1789 at Lt Marlow Bucks.
I have a note to the effect that there appears to be no baptism for a John Hastings in the Lt Marlow transcripts around the time to be of an age to marry Mary Mitchell in 1789. Looks like I missed a son named William I only found one child in Hagbourne and that is the William Hasting baptised 1727.
You: Possible scenario where William's first wife Elizabeth passes away after the birth of William b. 1727. He then meets and marries Frances in Cookham bring along his son William b. 1727 which gives a nice explanation as to how William came to live in Cookham and marry Mary and have a son - our John b. 1758.
I haven't yet tried to prove that link, my family group sheet for William and Elizabeth shows only three children for this couple, all three baptised at Cookham:-
William 1757
John 1758
Thomas 1762
I have the following note at the top of the Family Group Sheet for the family of William Hastings and his wife Elizabeth Brooks "N.B. As yet there is no proven link between this family and the John Hastings who married Mary Mitchell nee Clarke at Little Marlow."
Having said there's no proof I think the many uses of the names William, John and Thomas in my wife's Hastings line, although common names they are of some significance.
I'd like to make it clear at this point that I'm happy with having any of my theories/comments shot down, ;D
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You may want to scroll back a couple of pages Findem as we have been discussing this Caroline and Daniel and Charlotte for a couple of days here. Basically, I have been making the case for Charlotte's maiden name being Webb.
I will do that Doug, I hadn't forgotten, just that I wanted to state where I am at the moment with the Hastings, then I'll move on to Charlotte and Caroline. I will scroll back a couples of pages and also review my Family Group Sheets and notes, I need to get the Hill/Webb/Russell picture in perspective again. :)
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I think you mean William and Mary (Overshott) being the parents of William, John and Thomas - not William and Elizabeth?
I haven't yet tried to prove that link, my family group sheet for William and Elizabeth shows only three children for this couple, all three baptised at Cookham:-
William 1757
John 1758
Thomas 1762
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There is a small issue with "time" if Elizabeth Brooks were to be the mother of William Hastings in that she married William senior 23 Oct. 1726 and William junior was born just 4 months later as he was baptized 26 Feb. 1727 in Habourne.
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Also an issue with Mary Overshott as records show she married Thomas Pool 3 may 1756 in Cookham.
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Because there seems to be more information available we may have been led totally off base by looking in the Berkshire direction for Hastings especially looking at Hagbourne which is 30 miles away from Little Marlow. There are other candidates in Buckinghamshire that are closer. There is a William Hasting who marries Elizabeth Turner (or "Turnr." ) in West Wycombe in 1725 a mere 6 miles away. I am sure there are more Hastings in the area just that the info isn't readily available. There is also some in Wendover which is 16 miles away. William "Haston" b. 1725 to William and Mary.
Yikes, this is not going to be easy.
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In the book "Pedigrees of Buckinghamshire Families" Elizabeth, daughter of Sir William Henley, marries the untitled Henry Hastings in the early 1500's and they go on to have commoner "Hastings" children not worthy of being recorded in such books. With a strong history in Buckinghamshire they may be no reason to look outside to Berkshire.
Probably an impossible task until more records are transcribed?
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Hastings of Amersham in 1634. This is 12 miles from Little Marlow.
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I think you mean William and Mary (Overshott) being the parents of William, John and Thomas - not William and Elizabeth?
I haven't yet tried to prove that link, my family group sheet for William and Elizabeth shows only three children for this couple, all three baptised at Cookham:-
William 1757
John 1758
Thomas 1762
You're right Doug I did mean William and Mary, by the time I posted that I was getting very weary, at the moment I tire fairly easy but I'm gradually getting stronger.
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Because there seems to be more information available we may have been led totally off base by looking in the Berkshire direction for Hastings especially looking at Hagbourne which is 30 miles away from Little Marlow. There are other candidates in Buckinghamshire that are closer. There is a William Hasting who marries Elizabeth Turner (or "Turnr." ) in West Wycombe in 1725 a mere 6 miles away. I am sure there are more Hastings in the area just that the info isn't readily available. There is also some in Wendover which is 16 miles away. William "Haston" b. 1725 to William and Mary.
Yikes, this is not going to be easy.
The water is certainly getting muddier Doug, I'm hoping more info coming on line will help me with a Hill associated Ing line, I have three consecutive Ing families for whom in spite of two searches by the Bucks Family History site in their database, plus searches in surrounding counties where possible, the marriages remain a mystery. :(
Mark Ing to Ann c1673, 1st known child An baptised 1675.
William Ing to Mary c1715, 1st known child John baptised 1718.
William Ing to Mary c1742, 1st known child Ann baptised 1744.
All known children of those three families were baptised in Long Crendon, Bucks
So I guess we can expect some more muddying of the water in the years to come.
I'm now in the process of looking at Charlotte Louisa Russell versus Charlotte Webb.
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Now to see what I can do to sort out the two Charlottes.
Currently I have 13 children for this family but I'm wondering if some belong to a Daniel Hill and Charlotte Louisa Russell and others to a Daniel Hill and Charlotte Webb.
Baptisms
Harriet 7 Mar 1813 Hammersmith.
Frederick 11 Jun 1815 Hammersmith, parents Daniel & Charlotte Louisa Hill.
Henry 2 Feb 1821 Chelsea. born 24 Sep 1815.
John 2 Feb 1821 Chelsea. born 4 Jul 1817.
Louisa 18 Apr 1819 Hammersmith, parents Daniel & Charlotte Louisa Hill.
Daniel 2 Feb 1821 Chelsea.
Charlotte 7 Nov 1824 St Mary Hillingdon.
James 29 Oct 1826 St Mary Hillingdon.
Eliza 26 Sep 1826 Chelsea.
Caroline Hannah 8 Aug 1830 Chelsea.
Elizabeth 12 Oct 1832 Chelsea.
Jane Elizabeth 21 Sep 1834 Chelsea, born 9 Aug 1834.
? Ellen 12 Jul 1836 Northolt. ?
Daniel Hill (of Wandsworth) married Charlotte Louisa Russell 17 Jun 1810 St George Hanover Square.
Daniel Hill married Charlotte Webb 29 Jun 1811 St John the Baptist, Hillingdon.
Notes.
Only Frederick and Louisa were noted as being children of Daniel and Louisa Hill, the rest were simply noted as children of Daniel and Charlotte Hill.
I’ve listed the children in Chronological order.
The reason for posting the above info is so that when I have anything to post regarding the two Charlottes and families I wont have to go back and forth between this topic and my Family Group Sheets in Excel.
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I have discovered something very useful. Sometimes all good things come to those who wait. I have been using FamilySearch.org to track and record my family tree. For one, it is free and viewable by any family members who are interested. The information will always be there because genealogy is an important thing for the Mormons. More important is that it is crowd sourced. Information that is put in a family tree is checked by others and it is added to. Have you seen the junk in Acestry.com trees that just keeps replicating? Yikes!
The "waiting" part, aside waiting for others to add to one's work, is that the program itself seems to run an algorithm every once in a while that will automatically add people to your family tree. That is what happened with the "Ing" family.
I added Elizabeth Ing as the correct spouse to Jonathan Hastings. Several days later when I checked back magically all the people you are searching so hard for were added to the tree. Goes back as far as Marke Ingwald who married Ann in 1674.
You can see it all with a free account at familysearch.org ;D
Because there seems to be more information available we may have been led totally off base by looking in the Berkshire direction for Hastings especially looking at Hagbourne which is 30 miles away from Little Marlow. There are other candidates in Buckinghamshire that are closer. There is a William Hasting who marries Elizabeth Turner (or "Turnr." ) in West Wycombe in 1725 a mere 6 miles away. I am sure there are more Hastings in the area just that the info isn't readily available. There is also some in Wendover which is 16 miles away. William "Haston" b. 1725 to William and Mary.
Yikes, this is not going to be easy.
The water is certainly getting muddier Doug, I'm hoping more info coming on line will help me with a Hill associated Ing line, I have three consecutive Ing families for whom in spite of two searches by the Bucks Family History site in their database, plus searches in surrounding counties where possible, the marriages remain a mystery. :(
Mark Ing to Ann c1673, 1st known child An baptised 1675.
William Ing to Mary c1715, 1st known child John baptised 1718.
William Ing to Mary c1742, 1st known child Ann baptised 1744.
All known children of those three families were baptised in Long Crendon, Bucks
So I guess we can expect some more muddying of the water in the years to come.
I'm now in the process of looking at Charlotte Louisa Russell versus Charlotte Webb.
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I believe the Hammersmith and Hillingdon children are incorrect. I found 8 children for Daniel Hill and Charlotte Webb with the help of GRO. Begins in 1815 with "Henry". The last one is Elizabeth born in 1839 in Uxbridge. I consider the last one iffy just because it is Uxbridge but the parents are the same so I am using it. You can see them all by searching trees at familysearch.org. It is worthwhile to sometimes add someone you may not be 100% sold on because eventually it will be confirmed or someone else will come along and correct it. So, I added Elizabeth even though not 100%.
Now to see what I can do to sort out the two Charlottes.
Currently I have 13 children for this family but I'm wondering if some belong to a Daniel Hill and Charlotte Louisa Russell and others to a Daniel Hill and Charlotte Webb.
Baptisms
Harriet 7 Mar 1813 Hammersmith.
Frederick 11 Jun 1815 Hammersmith, parents Daniel & Charlotte Louisa Hill.
Henry 2 Feb 1821 Chelsea. born 24 Sep 1815.
John 2 Feb 1821 Chelsea. born 4 Jul 1817.
Louisa 18 Apr 1819 Hammersmith, parents Daniel & Charlotte Louisa Hill.
Daniel 2 Feb 1821 Chelsea.
Charlotte 7 Nov 1824 St Mary Hillingdon.
James 29 Oct 1826 St Mary Hillingdon.
Eliza 26 Sep 1826 Chelsea.
Caroline Hannah 8 Aug 1830 Chelsea.
Elizabeth 12 Oct 1832 Chelsea.
Jane Elizabeth 21 Sep 1834 Chelsea, born 9 Aug 1834.
? Ellen 12 Jul 1836 Northolt. ?
Daniel Hill (of Wandsworth) married Charlotte Louisa Russell 17 Jun 1810 St George Hanover Square.
Daniel Hill married Charlotte Webb 29 Jun 1811 St John the Baptist, Hillingdon.
Notes.
Only Frederick and Louisa were noted as being children of Daniel and Louisa Hill, the rest were simply noted as children of Daniel and Charlotte Hill.
I’ve listed the children in Chronological order.
The reason for posting the above info is so that when I have anything to post regarding the two Charlottes and families I wont have to go back and forth between this topic and my Family Group Sheets in Excel.
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Aside from the slightly different mother's name, I would say that Louisa (1819) belongs to a different couple from the trio bap Chelsea in 1821, logic being that if she was their sister she surely would have been bap at the same time. And by extension, Fred (1815) is probably a brother to Louisa.
There will almost certainly be earlier baps to both couples, much closer to their marriages, but they will be in different registers which may not be on familysearch.
I think the Hillingdon baps starting 1824 are to a THIRD as yet unidentified couple. Charlotte may be their first-born daughter.
If images of the PRs known about so far can be checked they should give abodes and occs, this may help with separating out the families. I'd regard the magically growing familysearch tree as nothing more than a set of hints.
Jane :-)
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I agree. I have fixed countless errors myself. Far less than I see in Ancestry trees however. ;)
I'd regard the magically growing familysearch tree as nothing more than a set of hints.
Jane :-)
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What I'm hoping to do is first off find the baptism of the Charlotte Webb who married a Daniel Hill in 1811 at Hillingdon.
Then find baptisms for Charlotte Webb's siblings, I'm hoping the first names used for that family might help towards identifying which Hill children belong to which of the two Daniel and Charlotte families.
I have never been 100% confident that mother of all 13 children was Charlotte Louisa Russell but getting evidence to prove it is another matter.
If I was to go with a guess I could see the children baptised at Hammersmith having Charlotte Russell as a mother.
The children baptised at Chelsea could well have Charlotte Webb as their mother.
As for the two children baptised at Hillingdon I'm not sure which way to go with them.
Considering that Daniel Hill and Charlotte Webb were married at Hillingdon it is tempting to think of those two children as having Charlotte Webb as a mother if it wasn't for James baptised 29 Oct 1826 at Hillingdon and Eliza baptised 26 Sep 1826 at Chelsea, two different parishes and only a month between the two baptisms doesn't gel.
The father of Charlotte Louisa Russell is James Russell, so perhaps James Hill baptised 29 Oct 1826 at Hillingdon would see him as a child of Charlotte L Russell, and of course Charlotte Hill baptised 7 Nov 1824 at Hillingdon along with him.
Having all the above thoughts rattling around my head it looks as though I might have to accept Charlotte Webb as my ancestor, time will tell I suppose.
Feel free to shoot down any of the above.
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"I found 8 children for Daniel Hill and Charlotte Webb with the help of GRO. Begins in 1815 with Henry".
Hi Doug, is the mention of GRO a deliberate mistake on your part to see if we are properly awake? :) ;)
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Do a search on FamilySearch for the last name "Hill", born in "Chelsea" between 1810 and 1840 with the mother's name "Charlotte" and you will see all of the most likely correct children and their christening dates. When you then check GRO for the later born children you see the the Mother's maiden name was "Webb".
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Do a search on FamilySearch for the last name "Hill", born in "Chelsea" between 1810 and 1840 with the mother's name "Charlotte" and you will see all of the most likely correct children and their christening dates. When you then check GRO for the later born children you see the the Mother's maiden name was "Webb".
I see, already done that on Family Search, haven't got round to Free Reg yet.
I'm pretty sure I've found the baptism of Charlotte Webb, in the 1851 Census it has her place of birth as London, the one I found fits the bill very well, bit more work to do proving it though, like did she marry or die where she was baptised.
Daniel Hill in the same Census claims Hillingdon as his birthplace but I've failed so far to locate him.
With the work I did yesterday I'm quite convinced now that Charlotte Webb is my wife's ancestor, not Charlotte Louisa Russell as I thought. The thought struck me yesterday that the person who recorded the baptisms in the PR might have added the middle name of Charlotte Louisa Russell to distinguish the Hammersmith children Frederick 1815 and Louisa 1819 from those of Daniel Hill and Charlotte Webb, I'm pretty sure that Harriett baptised 1813 at Hammersmith belongs to Daniel Hill and Charlotte Webb. Time will tell!
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I must admit I have only read over this new info quickly but just want to ask a couple of questions;
Do the 2 Daniels have different occp's?
When your direct Ancestor, child of Daniel Hill married if after Sept 1837, what was their Fathers occp?
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Hi Trish,
When Thomas Hastings (bachelor) married Caroline Read (widow) nee Hill, her father Daniel was a Labourer, as was the father of Thomas, Jonathon Hastings, the couple married 21 Apr 1862 at St Barnabas, Parish of St Luke, Middlesex by banns. The marriage entry gives the address for both as 11 Garden Row, neither of the two witnesses had Hastings or Hill as a surname.
A few days ago I thought I had found the baptisms of both Daniel Hill and his wife Charlotte Webb but they fizzled out.
I spent part of yesterday going over stuff I had including Censuses,
1851 Daniel aged 60 born Hillingdon, therefore born about 1791.
1861 Daniel aged 70 and born Hammersmith.
1851 Charlotte aged 55 and born London, therefore born about 1796.
1861 Charlotte aged 65 and born Hillingdon.
So that couple although hazy about where they were born, at least they were consistent about their year of birth. In both years Daniel was a Labourer and Charlotte had Laundry down as an occupation in the 1861 Census.
I have Daniels occupation at the time of his children's baptisms but I I have to go now something has cropped up so later I'll put them up.
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Here are the children of Daniel Hill and Charlotte Webb, also children of Daniel Hill and Charlotte Louisa Russell.
In the order of year of Baptism, child's 1st name, father's occupation and address at the time of the baptism.
1813 Harriett , a Taylor, Hammersmith.
1815 Frederick, a Taylor, Hammersmith.
1819 Louisa, a Taylor, Hammersmith.
1824 Charlotte, a Labourer, Hillingdon
1825 Henry, a Labourer, Poorhouse, Chelsea. Born 1815.
1825 John , a Labourer, Poorhouse, Chelsea. Born 1817.
1825 Daniel, a Labourer, Poorhouse, Chelsea. Born 1820.
1826 James, a Labourer, Hillingdon.
1828 Hannah Sarah, a Porter, Hillingdon. Born 1827.
1828 Eliza , a Labourer, Hillingdon. Born 1828.
1830 Caroline Hannah, a Labourer, Chelsea.
1832 Elizabeth, a Labourer, Chelsea.
1834 Jane Elizabeth, a Labourer, Chelsea. Born 1834.
1834 Ellen, a Labourer, Northolt, year of birth not given.
Only Frederick and Louisa's baptism entries named the mother as Charlotte Louisa, for the rest the mother was just named Charlotte.
I have put the children in year of baptism order because I think that way it gives clues as to who is whose child, wish I had done that before :-[ :) . On my Family Group sheets they appear in year of birth order, I do have birth dates for all the children except Ellen.
Hope the above info helps rather than hinder.
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My thinking is that the first four on your list - Harriett, Frederick, Louisa, and Charlotte all belong to Daniel and Charlotte Louisa and they were all baptized in Hammersmith.
Henry, John, and Daniel were all baptized on Feb. 2, 1821 in Chelsea according to FamilySearch as if the family had joined the church in Chelsea just recently. They are followed by Eliza in 1828, Caroline Hannah in 1830, Elizabeth in 1832 (died 1834), Jane Elizabeth in 1834. These are most likely all siblings wouldn't you say?
There is also another Elizabeth born in 1839 in Uxbridge with "Webb" as the mother. I do not have a christening date or place for her. Do you?
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OK, I am confused as all heck now ;D
"New" theory... actually one I discarded previously but am attempting to resurrect it. On the 1841 Census in St. Luke Chelsea there is a "Hill" family recorded in an institution. A poorhouse I presume. What throws me off is that there is Daniel Hill age 50, Harriett Hill age 45, then Charlotte Hill age 15, followed by a bunch of Hill kids the same name and ages as ones I presumed to be correct as Caroline's siblings. I am going to say that in the transcription or maybe even on the actual census Harriett's and Charlotte's ages were flipped.
Under that assumption that family I presume to be correct would have consisted of Daniel b. 1791 or 92. Charlotte b. 1796ish and their children:
All birth dates may be +/- 1 year in this list...
Henry 1815
John 1817
Daniel 1820
All above christened together and not on the 1841 census as they would have aged out. Depending on which is correct - an 1821 or 1825 christening date for those 3 - there may or may not be a long gap before the next child "Harriett".
On the 1841 census are:
Harriett 1826
James 1827
Eliza 1828
Caroline 1830
Jane 1834
Sarah 1939
Not on the Census because she died in 1834 as Elizabeth born in 1832.
I still have another "Elizabeth" born in 1839 in Uxbridge with mother's name as Webb. Not sure what to make of her.
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Forgive me if you've already covered this. The 1839 child was born after civil reg started. Is she showing on gro website and if so does mmn get you anywhere?
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There is a Sarah Elizabeth Hill born in Islington with the mother's name of "Hill" but not one born with "Webb". I am also wondering if Sarah may actually be the child of one of Daniel and Charlotte's earlier children being raised just as they later raise Caroline's child Thomas.
Sarah's age on the 1861 Census would put her being born in 1837. There was a female "Hill" (no first name) born in Chelsea in the last quarter of 1837. Mother's name Everett.
I can throw out my "Elizabeth" born in 1839 with the mother's maiden name of "Webb" as evidence is pointing to the father being Henry Hill who married Hannah Webb in Uxbridge in 1838.
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My thinking is that the first four on your list - Harriett, Frederick, Louisa, and Charlotte all belong to Daniel and Charlotte Louisa and they were all baptized in Hammersmith.
Henry, John, and Daniel were all baptized on Feb. 2, 1821 in Chelsea according to Family Search as if the family had joined the church in Chelsea just recently. They are followed by Eliza in 1828, Caroline Hannah in 1830, Elizabeth in 1832 (died 1834), Jane Elizabeth in 1834. These are most likely all siblings wouldn't you say?
There is also another Elizabeth born in 1839 in Uxbridge with "Webb" as the mother. I do not have a christening date or place for her. Do you?
"My thinking is that the first four on your list - Harriett, Frederick, Louisa, and Charlotte all belong to Daniel and Charlotte Louisa and they were all baptized in Hammersmith."
I agree that the first three children where the father Daniel is a "Taylor" are children of Daniel Hill and his wife Charlotte Louisa Russell.
As for the fourth child Charlotte born 1824, she was baptised at Hayes, Hillingdon Middlesex so being baptised at Hillingdon and her father Daniel is a Labourer, I suggest she is more Likely to be the daughter of Daniel Hill and his wife Charlotte Webb. Also bear in mind that Daniel Hill and Charlotte Webb married at St John the Baptist Hillingdon Middlesex.
The remainder of the children on my list I attribute to Daniel Hill and Charlotte Webb although I'm a little uneasy at the moment with Ellen (bap 1834 in Northolt) being their child.
The Uxbridge Elizabeth hasn't figured in my thoughts as a member of either Daniel Hill family because, off the top of my head, whilst browsing the PRs on Ancestry I noted her with a father's name other than Daniel.
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OK, I am confused as all heck now ;D
What throws me off is that there is Daniel Hill age 50, Harriett Hill age 45, then Charlotte Hill age 15, followed by a bunch of Hill kids the same name and ages as ones I presumed to be correct as Caroline's siblings.
I've seen that 1841 Census, the ages are right to be Daniel Hill and Charlotte Webb but the Wife's name, Harriott, is wrong. I'm inclined to think the wife's name was misheard by the enumerator who thought he heard Harriott.
The children' ages are not accurate but that is par for the game with the 1841 Census, in the 1841 Census ages were rounded, off hand I forget whether rounded up or down.
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"Charlotte born 1824, she was baptised at Hayes, Hillingdon Middlesex so being baptised at Hillingdon and her father Daniel is a Labourer, I suggest she is more Likely to be the daughter of Daniel Hill and his wife Charlotte Webb.
What bothers me about that idea is that being born in 1824 you would think she would have been baptized in Chelsea along with Henry, John, and Daniel who were all born earlier and baptized together in Chelsea. She sticks out like a sore thumb for not being baptized in Chelsea.
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Ok. I underestand what you are saying now and agree. The name "Harriett" was a misheard or poorly transcribed "Charlotte". The Charlotte born in Hillingdon would indeed be their daughter :)
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With the 1851 & !861 Censuses and the Drake Family Tree on Ancestry in mind I had a rummage around in Ancestry PRs for the birth or baptism for Charlotte Webb.
The Censuses and the Drake tree would see Charlotte baptised in 1796.
1851 Charlotte born in London.
1861 Charlotte born in Hillingdon Middlesex.
Drake Family tree, Charlotte born 14 May 1796 and baptised 3 Jul 1706 at St Pancras Old Church, Camden, the daughter of James and Sarah Webb.
The Drake tree is correct in everything when compared to the PR entry except the mother's name is Ann.
There is a Charlotte born 2 Aug 1795 and baptised 23 Aug 1795 at St Mary Magdalene, Old fish Street, City of London, the daughter of James and Sarah Webb. Not a bad match for the 1851 Census I suppose.
Also there is Charlotte baptised 14 Mar 1794 (born 25 days before) at St Dunstan and All Saints, Stepney, Tower Hamlets, Middlesex, the daughter of James and Ann.
Although the 1861 Census gives Charlotte's birth place as Hillingdon, she was consistent in both Censuses as being born about 1796, the City of London Charlotte is closest to the year 1796.
I would be very grateful for the opinions of others on the matter.
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It looks like back in the 1790's births were not recorded as being in Hillingdon.
So often people's ages / birthdates vary between census years. 3 to 5 years is not unusual. I would think that when it is consistent it adds great credibility. 1796 would have a high probability of being correct in my opinion.
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So often people's ages / birthdates vary between census years. 3 to 5 years is not unusual. I would think that when it is consistent it adds great credibility. 1796 would have a high probability of being correct in my opinion.
My thoughts also Doug.
Anyone else care to comment?
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I must admit I have only read over this new info quickly but just want to ask a couple of questions;
Do the 2 Daniels have different occp's?
When your direct Ancestor, child of Daniel Hill married if after Sept 1837, what was their Fathers occp?
Apologies Trish, going over some of the posts on this topic I realise that I didn't fully answer your question.
Unfortunately the marriage entry for Daniel Hill to Charlotte Louisa Russell did not mention Daniel's father, it didn't give Daniel's occupation nor that of his father in law James Russell
It did mention that Daniel was a bachelor of Wandsworth in the County of Surrey and that Charlotte was a spinster and "a minor of this parish" and that she married with the consent of her father James Russell. They married at St George, Hanover Square by licence, Westminster, Charlotte was baptised at St James. Westminster.
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In my post #60 dated 28 Jan 2018 I listed a Hannah Sarah daughter of Daniel and Charlotte Hill born 1828, I have rechecked the entry in the relevant PR in Ancestry, she is actually Hannah Sarah the daughter of Daniel and Charlotte Hull
The details on Ancestry.com does list her surname as Hull but when I viewed the Parish Baptism Register entry for her the other day I thought the surname looked more like Hill than Hull. The PR page is blurry and not easily read, however when today I enlarged the entry and looked at it through a magnifying glass things became a tad clearer. What I thought was the dot in Hill turned out to be part of the left hand upright of the H.
Sorry about that :-[
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Thanks for investigating further and clearing that up :)
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Regarding Caroline's sister Sarah Hill who would have been born anywhere between 1837 and 1839 depending on which census you want to believe... finding her birth is an issue. From everything I have seen and using the process of elimination the most likely candidate may be Sarah Hill who was baptized May 17, 1839 in Hayes, Hillingdon. The parents names are not on the parish register. It looks like someone made an error and crossed it off and then never bothered to fill in the info. All of the other children on the page have their parents named.
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The image for the 1839 Hayes Sarah says adult
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Oh! Meaning that Sarah was christened as an adult? Well I guess that eliminates her then :D
Thank you!
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I did find Sarah's marriage on May 27, 1855 in Hammersmith. Her age is stated as 18 which would make her born in 1837. If I understand correctly births before September 1837 were not registered which helps explain why it is so hard to find exactly when and where she was born.
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I spent yesterday afternoon in a frustrating search for Thomas Hill the son of Daniel Hill and his wife Charlotte Webb, the frustrating part was the search on Ancestry.com, it was playing silly beggars.
The 1851 Census for St Luke Chelsea shows a son Thomas living with his parents, Thomas is stated as having been born at Hillingdon Middlesex and aged 26 which would see him born about 1825.
I searched Ancestry, Family Search and Free Reg but couldn't find him anywhere other than the 1851 Census, I tried using Hillingdon, Middlesex England and just Middlesex, England in the searches.
Posts by Doug and familydar mention Hayes Hillingdon Middlesex so I'm wondering if mention of that as the birthplace in a search whether that would find him, I'll give it a try later time permitting.
Using a search time frame of 1825 + & - 5 years threw up loads of Thomas Hills but not the right one. :( ;D
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We have a James Hill that shows up on one census and a Thomas that shows up on another. Both are about the same age. I saw a family tree at Ancestry today that had him as James Thomas Hill b. 1827. I didn't check if they had a source for that. I do know they had the death date wrong. They had it as 1896 and it was an infant that died on that date.
A page or two back you had a list of Hill kids' christenings which I believe you gleaned from parish records. There is a "James" on that list. I would think that if he was really "James Thomas" that would have been the name used in the parish record.
Needs more investigation I guess.
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We have a James Hill that shows up on one census and a Thomas that shows up on another. Both are about the same age. I saw a family tree at Ancestry today that had him as James Thomas Hill b. 1827. I didn't check if they had a source for that. I do know they had the death date wrong. They had it as 1896 and it was an infant that died on that date.
A page or two back you had a list of Hill kids' christenings which I believe you gleaned from parish records. There is a "James" on that list. I would think that if he was really "James Thomas" that would have been the name used in the parish record.
Needs more investigation I guess.
I have seen that James Thomas Hill in an Ancestry tree and I have seen it in the Ancestry PRs, he is not the son of Daniel and Charlotte.
Had another crack at finding Thomas Hill circa 1825 this morning, couldn't find a Thomas Hill child of Daniel and Charlotte.
The nearest I came to Thomas was a Thomas Hill born 17 Aug 1725 and bap 30 Aug 1825 at City of London, St Swithin London Stone, unfortunately his parents are Daniel and Ann Hill.
So where or if he was baptised I haven't a clue and I'm at a loss to know how to further search for him, I'm beginning to wonder did Daniel Hill and Charlotte Webb really have a son named Thomas.
The 1851 had two children, Sear (Sarah) Hill born abt 1839 at Chelsea and Thomas born 1849 at Northolt, both labelled as being daughter and son of Daniel and Charlotte Hill, several people including myself suspect they are grandchildren, so is it possible that same census got it wrong with stating Thomas was a son? ???
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I did find Sarah's marriage on May 27, 1855 in Hammersmith. Her age is stated as 18 which would make her born in 1837. If I understand correctly births before September 1837 were not registered which helps explain why it is so hard to find exactly when and where she was born.
One problem with BMD registering is that it wasn't mandatory to register BMDs until 1874, so no doubt quite a few BMDs between 1837 and 1874 weren't registered, I think I'm right with 1874, if not I'm sure someone will advise. :)
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Hi findem, I see you are in Aus so it's understandable that you're seeing these various parishes as quite close together. In miles they are, but they are very different places.
I grew up in Hayes. Hillingdon was somewhere you passed through on the bus to Uxbridge, but it's subsequently given its name to a London borough. There are lots of PRs for the general area which aren't online and lots which are but not on ancestry. Someone born and brought up in Hayes wouldn't sometimes decide it was Hillingdon or Hammersmith or Chelsea. When I've come across varying birthplaces it's generally been because the actual place was on the border of two parishes - they might have been born in a certain place but the nearest church was in the next parish - or what I take to be laziness on the part of the census enumerator - entire families, pages even, all born in the same place as the census address. Occasionally I've seen husb & wife birthplaces swopped.
Whilst not such a popular combo as Wm & Mary, or James & Ann, Dan & Charlotte is more common than you might think and you are probably looking at 3 or more family units. The way to disentangle them will be to inspect the records and not depend on transcripts. And don't limit yourself to baps, you need to be looking at mars & burs, poor law, wills and more.
Jane :-)
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Hi findem, I see you are in Aus so it's understandable that you're seeing these various parishes as quite close together. In miles they are, but they are very different places.
I grew up in Hayes. Hillingdon was somewhere you passed through on the bus to Uxbridge, but it's subsequently given its name to a London borough. There are lots of PRs for the general area which aren't online and lots which are but not on ancestry. Someone born and brought up in Hayes wouldn't sometimes decide it was Hillingdon or Hammersmith or Chelsea. When I've come across varying birthplaces it's generally been because the actual place was on the border of two parishes - they might have been born in a certain place but the nearest church was in the next parish - or what I take to be laziness on the part of the census enumerator - entire families, pages even, all born in the same place as the census address. Occasionally I've seen husb & wife birthplaces swopped.
Whilst not such a popular combo as Wm & Mary, or James & Ann, Dan & Charlotte is more common than you might think and you are probably looking at 3 or more family units. The way to disentangle them will be to inspect the records and not depend on transcripts. And don't limit yourself to baps, you need to be looking at mars & burs, poor law, wills and more.
Jane :-)
Hi Jane,
Thanks for taking an interest in this topic.
First off, I'm now not surprised how many Daniels married a Charlotte, nor how many Daniel Hills married a Charlotte, having trawled records on Ancestry and Family Search, it's amazing also how many Hill guys with first names other than Daniel married Charlottes, it blew my mind. I'm almost convinced that Hill guys have something in their DNA which makes them search for a bride with the first name of Charlotte. ;D
All the birth or baptism places I have for the children of both Daniel and Charlotte Hill couples have been sourced from their birth/baptism entries in the relevant PRs on Ancestry.
As for Daniel Hill and his wife Charlotte Webb, I'm beginning to think their birth or baptism places are anyone's guess, what I have at the moment is just what the 1851 and 1861 Censuses give and neither Daniel or Charlotte were consistent about where they were born. I've found and I'm sure you have a good many of our ancestors didn't know for sure where they were born, I think with a lot of them where they think they were born is the earliest place they can recall living at.
The title at the top of the page containing the image for the Baptism of Charlotte 1824 states Hillingdon > Hayes > 1813 - 1844. the title at the top of the Baptism register itself states Heys or Hayes, no mention of Hillingdon. I'm not 100% sure of the word Heys it's not easy to read, I scrolled through other pages to find a page with it written clearly but nothing doing. The name of the church is not given.
For James 1825 the top of the page has Hillingdon > St John the Baptist, Hillingdon > 1813 - 1861, on the image page itself it has simply Hillingdon Middlesex.
I'll have to have a think about this family, at the moment I'm not sure if I can see a way to positively identify the parents Daniel Hill and Charlotte Webb, or even if it's possible to do so.
I still haven't regained my old strength yet, last Years problems have left me not firing on all cylinders but Im getting there albeit slowly. ;D
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Hi findem, I see you are in Aus so it's understandable that you're seeing these various parishes as quite close together. In miles they are, but they are very different places.
Jane :-)
Forgot to mention I spent the first 40 years of my life living in Chelmsford Essex where I was born, although I know next to nothing about Middlesex places I would imagine places similar in Essex are the same and anyone from another town/village or county is a foreigner. :)
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A bit off topic but it seems our "paths" cross again somewhat as my Bullen ancestors were from the Chelmsford area originally back in the 1700's and early 1800's before moving to Stratford. One made his way to Australia and from my snooping I believe I still have Bullen family there :)
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Yes it's amazing how paths cross.
My wife's family lived in SE London near the London/Kent border.
My wife has a Turner line which I've traced back to a couple marrying in Lt Bardfield, Essex in 1802.
I have a Turner line which I've traced back to a couple marrying in Pattiswick, Essex, 1799. I have as a possible for the family of the groom a Turner family at Thaxted Essex, there son William was born 1775 which is appropriate but needs more research. Thaxted is only about 3 miles from Lt Bardfield.
I realise that the Turner name being an occupation derived surname means there's every chance the two lines at Pattiswick and Lt Bardfield are not related but in distance only 17 miles, so who knows and if the Thaxted Turners come good even more chance of a link.
I have a Webb line but so far Essex born and my wife's Webb line is Middlesex or London based, certainly Greater London, so every chance our lines wont link up.
Just shows we never know where our research will take it or who we will link up with, I've certainly had a few surprises, a 5th cousin on my maternal side in Canada and distant cousins here in Australia, some even in NSW.
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For anyone following this thread or who stumbles upon it through Google (like I did) - a DNA test I had done pretty much confirms that Elizabeth Ing is the right person. The test reports that I had a " grandparent who was 100% Scandinavian. This person was likely born between 1740 and 1830."
That is Elizabeth Ing.
I have discovered something very useful. Sometimes all good things come to those who wait. I have been using FamilySearch.org to track and record my family tree. For one, it is free and viewable by any family members who are interested. The information will always be there because genealogy is an important thing for the Mormons. More important is that it is crowd sourced. Information that is put in a family tree is checked by others and it is added to. Have you seen the junk in Acestry.com trees that just keeps replicating? Yikes!
The "waiting" part, aside waiting for others to add to one's work, is that the program itself seems to run an algorithm every once in a while that will automatically add people to your family tree. That is what happened with the "Ing" family.
I added Elizabeth Ing as the correct spouse to Jonathan Hastings. Several days later when I checked back magically all the people you are searching so hard for were added to the tree. Goes back as far as Marke Ingwald who married Ann in 1674.
You can see it all with a free account at familysearch.org ;D
Because there seems to be more information available we may have been led totally off base by looking in the Berkshire direction for Hastings especially looking at Hagbourne which is 30 miles away from Little Marlow. There are other candidates in Buckinghamshire that are closer. There is a William Hasting who marries Elizabeth Turner (or "Turnr." ) in West Wycombe in 1725 a mere 6 miles away. I am sure there are more Hastings in the area just that the info isn't readily available. There is also some in Wendover which is 16 miles away. William "Haston" b. 1725 to William and Mary.
Yikes, this is not going to be easy.
The water is certainly getting muddier Doug, I'm hoping more info coming on line will help me with a Hill associated Ing line, I have three consecutive Ing families for whom in spite of two searches by the Bucks Family History site in their database, plus searches in surrounding counties where possible, the marriages remain a mystery. :(
Mark Ing to Ann c1673, 1st known child An baptised 1675.
William Ing to Mary c1715, 1st known child John baptised 1718.
William Ing to Mary c1742, 1st known child Ann baptised 1744.
All known children of those three families were baptised in Long Crendon, Bucks
So I guess we can expect some more muddying of the water in the years to come.
I'm now in the process of looking at Charlotte Louisa Russell versus Charlotte Webb.