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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Leicestershire => Topic started by: anniejukes on Monday 29 March 10 18:26 BST (UK)
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Hi all.
I have been trying to find out more about a gypsy ancestor for years now and so far have had no luck!!!
I have joined numerous societies including the romany history society. It is proving to be a real head ache ???
If anyone can help, if anyone has come across anything or if anyone can spare a bit of time to search any parish records etc I would really appreciate some help!!!!!
My ancestor is Lementina Smith born about 1820 (using age at time of death), marriage cert just said of full age! If going by census records she was born anywhere from 1817-1822 and she was born in Bruntingthorpe or Peatling. She married in Barrowden and her marriage cert said that's where she was living at the time, and her father was Sam Smith.
Her and her father's occupation on her marriage cert was gypsy, she married Jonathan Popple and became a farm labourer. I have everything I need to know after she married but nothing before and would love to know more about her roots! Of course she may have been born in another county but like to rule out what I know.
If anyone has any resources or hints that could help then I would love to here from you!
Regards Ann-Marie
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Greeting’s & Welcome. …..Ann Marie.
I’ve had a good look around my Recourses…….
Although Census returns for the Popple Family is well documented .
1801 ~ 11 Head count Censuses for
"Smith" Bruntingthorpe.
had :~
1801.
Thomas Smith 2 Males 3 Female.
John Smith. 7 Males 6 Females
1811.
John Smith ...2 Males 2 Female.
Thomas. Smith ....1 Male. 2 Females
Baptisms are proving a bit more difficult owning to being of Romany dissent.
These usually take place during the Winter months whilst they are laid up for the Winter. So It could be any where really.
But I can but ask if the Records Office have “Romany Events” on file
Next time I’m at the Records Office.
I see that there was a Bastardy Order......1820.
naming the Father as Samuel Popple
in the Billesdon District but no further details given. …….
Again I’ll try and have a look at that case files whist at the Record Office.
Popple Burials of note found :~
St. Michael’s Parish Church.
Illston – on – the – Hill.
1879.
Jonathan Popple.
Abode…..Illston ( New Inn )
7th. May.
Aged. 63.
1888.
Lementeanor Popple.
Abode……Illston. ( New Inn )
9th. February.
Aged. 68.
Plus several Infant Popple burials 1820. ~ 1851.
I see that on the 1881 census returns Lementina was next door to one of my relitives......Dan Coleman.
MIKE……..
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Hi Mike.
Thank you very much for your quick reply, I was thrilled to see your message this morning!! ;D
Firstly you have managed to answer a big question I had about where Lementina was buried, I have travelled to Illston on the Hill and Goadby with some family to see where we came from and wandered around the cemeteries there. We found Jonatha Popple's grave at Illston and wrongfully thought that Lementina was buried somewhere in Romford, Essex as that is where she died. There is a space for her name on Jonathan's headstone so she must be there!
I don't suppose you know what the infants names were that were buried?? Jonathan and Lementina (as far as I have been able to find) had 6 children, only 2 survived into adulthood so would be interested to know if there were any more...
The bastardy order you mention is very interesting, I have not got a Samuel Popple on my tree but the fact that he is in the Billesdon area stands a very good chance of being ours! Anything you find out about that would be great.
So you have Illston roots too! Fancy your relative living next door to mine!!
The search goes on for Lementina's gypsy family!
Thanks again for your message! If you come across anything else it would be great to hear from you again!!
Ann-Marie
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Hi again!
I don't want to take advantage but I have just realised you mentioned those early census you have. Have you come across my Popple's on these early census? Jonathan Popple was born about 1817, son of Thomas and Jane Popple, they married in about 1802 in Tugby. Thomas's father was William, Jane's maiden name was Pateman.
Regards
Ann-Marie
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Greeting’s Again….Ann Marie…….
I held back from posting those infant Burials until I heard from you……..
:).....EYES DOWN. !! …….. :)
St: Michael’s Parish Church.
Illston – on – the – Hill.
1843.
Parish Burial Register No’. 80.
Jonathan Popple.
Abode……Illston.
14th. October.
Aged….An Infant.( Usually means did not make 1st Birthday.)
1843.
Reg. No’. 82..
Rebecca Popple.
Abode……Illston.
22nd. December.
Aged….An Infant.
1846.
Reg. No’. 96.
Jonathan Popple.
Abode….Illston.
26th. January.
Aged…..6 Days Old.
1850.
Reg, No’. 99.
Christians Popple.
Abode……Illston.
9th. January.
Aged….3 days Old.
1851.
Reg, No’. 104.
Jonathan Popple.
Abode. …Illston.
28th. August.
Aged. …..5 Days Old.
I see from the Census returns the Family were in the Goadby District also.
GOADBY.
St: John the Baptist Parish Church.
1820.
Burial Register No’. 13.
Matthias Popple.
Abode….Goadby.
30th. April.
Aged….1 Month Old.
1840.
Reg. No’. 40.
Nathaniel. Popple.
Abode….Goadby
15th. January.
Aged……1 Month Old.
1841.
Reg. No’. 50.
Nathaniel Popple.
Abode…..Goadby.
27th. May.
Aged…..3 Months Old.
1842.
Reg. No’. 54.
Claria Popple.
Abode. ….Goadby.
20th. October.
Aged……1 Month Old.
1844.
Reg. No’. 58.
Eliza Popple.
Abode. …….Goadby.
Aged…..3 Weeks Old.
St: Thomas A Becket Parish Church.
Tugby.
MARRIAGE. :~
1802.
Thomas Popple. Of the Parish Illston – on – the – Hill.
Jane Pateman. Of this Parish.
Marriage in this Church
This Eight Day of October.
By Banns.
BAPTISMS :~ Children of Thomas & Jane Popple.
1803.
William…..Bapt. ?? no actual date given. Buried 1st. March. An Infant.
1804. Mary…….Bapt. ..16th. April.
BAPTISMS :~ GOADBY ......St: John the Baptist. .
Children of Thomas & Jane Popple.
1810. Thomas…..Bapt.20th. May. Died 8th. July.
1811. Thomas. Bapt……5th. May.
1823. Matthias Bapt…..17th. August.
1833. William. ..Bapt. 20th. January.
MIKE……..
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Hi Mike
Thanks a lot for all of your help!! We will be visiting Birmingham and Leicester record office over the next few months, so if there is anything we can do for you let me know!!
Again, thanks and if you think of anything else you think might be of interest, would be grea to hear from you!
Regards
Ann-Marie
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Greeting’s again… Marina Ann .
Sorry the right man to ask at the Records Office about Gypsy Records within Leicestershire was not on duty today......
But I managed a few moments spare to have a look at that Bastardy Order 1820.
The order was taken out by…… Ann BENT
On oath before Thomas Billinger. Magistrate
Naming Samuel Smith a Labourer of Billesdon as the Father.
A male Bastard was delivered to Ann Bent.....
MIKE……
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Hi, thanks for looking into that for me!
Very interesting, I have had to read up on bastardy orders because I didn't know a lot about them!
Did you see who the child was that the order was with reference to?
Thanks again
Ann-Marie
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Hi Ann-Marie,
I've trawled through ALL baptism records on IGI lists for the Leicestershire area. There are only two Clementina Smiths (no Lementina or anything like it). One I've already told you about on another thread;
bap 11th Dec 1816, Appleby Magna - parents Joseph Smith & Reserva
the other is;
bap 3rd Sep 1854, Swepstone, Leicester - parents John Smith & Ann.
I too am desperate to find out more about my 3x g-grandmother, but I now don't know where to look. As you can see, neither one of the records fits with what we know about her, so I think she must've been baptised in another county, or not baptised at all!
It's so frustrating!! >:(
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I am reading 'My Ancestors Were Gypsies' by Sharon Sillers Floate, in which she refers to her great-great grandmother Lementeni Smith. Could this be her?
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Hi, Thanks for your post! It may well be. Does it give much detail of her?
Ann-Marie
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Sorry there isn't really any information on her as regards to dates/locations etc., but she does say that her father was William Smith, a horse dealer.
The family tree of her Smith Family is in the 'Journal of the Gypsy Lore Society' of 1910 that the author viewed at the British Library.
The book is available on Amazon, I just had a quick look!
Good luck!
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Thanks for the info!
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Hi Sandy - only just saw your post - that's amazing that Lementina is mentioned in a book! I'd heard she was part of one of the biggest traveller families, but this just proves it!
Regards,
Angi
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I am in contact with others
that have Lemintina in their tree..I am happy to get in contact with them for you. I am also of Romany heritage
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Hello, I am new to this and have just come across this strand relating to my ancestors, Lementina Smith and Jonathan Popple. Lementina is my 3 X great grandmother. If anyone can help me with documentation relating to Lementina and Jonathan I would greatly apprecIte it as I live in Perth, Australia and am attempting to research from a distance!
Lementina’s daughter, Emily is my 2X great grandmother.
I understand some members may have documentation and would love it if they could possibly share...
Many thanks
Luisa
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Hi Luisa
Lementina is also my 3x great-grandma, via her son Alfred.
You're descended through Emily (married Heathcote) then? That's who Lementina was living with when she died isn't it?
Angi
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Hi Angi
Yes, I am descended through Emily Heathcote, Jonathan and Lementina's youngest child. Somehow Emily (from Leicestershire) and Frederick (from Essex), met. Their eldest child, Louisa Elizabeth Heathcote is my Great Grandmother. Possibly Lementina moved down to London to be with/help her daughter since Emily and Frederick had, I believe, 13 children. They ran hotels/pubs in London and Essex (Heathcotes were in pub trade over a number of generations) although early on Frederick was listed in census documents as an "artist" in his early years and ended up as a "confectioner" in later years!
Do you have any birth or marriage certificates relating to Lementina? I would love to know more about the gypsy side of the family!
Luisa
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Hi Luisa.
Wow..13 children! Ouch ;D
I think I must be missing one then as I only have 12 children for them...must look into that!
Sadly I don't have any certs for Lementina. I really ought to order some but if I ordered every cert I wanted I'd be penniless Lol! Obviously there'd be no cert for her birth, but I do have the reference numbers for her marriage and death.
I think it's nice that although she died and was registered in Essex, she was still buried back in her hometown.
Nice to hear some background details for Frederick too :)
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One thing you may be able to clarify for me Luisa....
I have a list of children for your g-grandma Louisa. Were Margaret and Patrick twins? They both have the same birth reference so I presumed that to be the case...