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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ayrshire => Topic started by: bigcheese on Monday 29 March 10 19:23 BST (UK)
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BAC does anyone have listings of CAMERONS pre 1899 from Darvel churchyard ?
ta much
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In the pre 1855 book of inscriptions, there's 2 Cameron memorial stones in Newmilns Churchyard but none in Darvel. The names mentioned are Janet Cameron d 20.9.1815 a 55y (h Wm Gilchrist) and Jas Cameron 1799-1893, former magistrate.
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thx for that - must go to the BM to check that book out. Thought there would be more as the camerons farmed in loudounhill since 1630 odd
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Many gravestones could be missing through natural erosion, vandalism and the government's latest scheme to topple unstable gravestones - there could also be burials in Strathaven, or Drumclog, depends where at Loudounhill they farmed.
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You may already have a note, but in the list of Covenanters in the Galston parish who signed the National Covenant in 1639, there are the following Camerons:-
William Camerone (no address given)
Wm Camronne in Molmont
John Camronne in Burnhouse
Wm Cameronne in Molmont (could be a 2nd Wm in Molmont)
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thats another trail started thanks
have you come across the place or person name "Pischinheuch" BTW ?
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Can you be a bit more precise - where did that name come from?
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Hi bigchese,
Have you visited this site?
www.decorateit.ca/cameron/trees/all_trees.pdf -
Not much help with regard to the origin of Pischineuch, but it does contain several Cameron families.
IanB
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have asked originator of that tree
its the only referance on th eweb to that name !
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Hello! I saw your question about "Pischineuch" - I found a reference to a record on Ancestry.com that says, "Excerpt: From Scottish Record Society Commissariot of Glasgow Register of Testaments 20 Mar. 1618 22 June 1663 Cameron "John..."
Then I found the original Register of Testaments in a searchable PDF, and it lists two testaments: "John [Cameron], in Pischinheuche, par. of Lowdoune, 13 Mar. 1621," then "John [Cameron], in Pischeinheuch, par. of Lowdoune, 26 Oct 1624."
So it sounds like Pischineuch is a place name for some part of Loudon? And these Testaments most likely document the deaths of the first people in the family tree mentioned at the "Camerons in Manitoba" site someone else mentioned in this chain earlier (http://www.decorateit.ca/cameron/cameronfamily_tree.htm)
Ancestry reference link: https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/mediastorypublic/?name=_cameron&bsk=BEFpYewIgAAERwCt5rg-61-&fh=4220
Link for searchable PDF of the Commissariot of Glasgow Register of Testaments: https://www.electricscotland.com/history/records/scottishrecordso07scotuoft.pdf
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Hello MatthewCameron and welcome to Rootschat,
Don't know if you noticed , but the original question posed and the replies were posted in 2010.
Two of the contributors haven't been active on the site for a couple of years , but if their email address is still active they should get an email alert advising them someone has posted on this thread.
Thank you for posting the info you have found.
I'm a Loudoun lassie born and bred and I have to admit Pischineuch/Pischeineuch has me stumped ;D - never heard of it, I'm afraid.
Looby :)
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I can't add any more. I live in the area and never heard of Pischeinheuch. There certainly were Camerons around at that time but none of the old maps refer to that particular place.
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As it happens, the ROY military Map 1752 -1755 shows Pischineuch approx 3.5 miles North (NNW) of the ultimate Cameron ancestral home at Loudounhill Farm. As per attached Pischineuch shows as a modest settlement up in the hills which has disappeared from maps a century later in the more detailed OS Map of 1857-60. This is the reference in the Canadian family tree papers, and in the Ancestry files. The farm became East Loudounhill Farm in the 1940's when it was sold, with the Loudounhill Farm name then being assumed by what up till then was known as Loudounhill House , some 600 yards across the fields. The buildings are still inhabited (by a well known Scottish artist) and in excellent condition
Matthew - I couldn't get in to Ancestry , but be great thanks if there are any screen grabs you could post of these references
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Comparing Roy's map with the modern maps, and following the rivers, it looks as if Pissingheuch is near what is now known as Long Green - see http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NS5741 and https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=55.6415&lon=-4.2694&layers=6&b=1.
On both of these you can see Braidley (= Broadlee) to the south, Gateside to the south-west and Lochfield to the north-east, just as they appear on Roy's map.
East Loudounhill is about two miles south-east of Long Green, and is marked as such on the 1:25,000 map, but as Loudonhill on the 1:50,000 map. See https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NS5937 and click on the map to enlarge it. This is the place named as Loudounhill House on the first edition of the six-inch Ordnance Survey map https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=55.6159&lon=-4.2340&layers=6&b=1.
You can also see Allanton Mill to the south, Loudoun Hill to the east, and Glaister to the west, also as shown on Roy's map.
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it is curious that on Roy , Pischineuch is North West of the Lochfield settlement near Lochfield Loch , yet Long Green is South West of Lochfield Loch on the OS 1888 / 1913. Using the topographic features it might be a tad nearer to Lamb Hill where there is a spring
The Roy map tends to be a bit compressed top to bottom, but not consistently so, as its intention was to be pictorial rather than accurate
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it is curious that on Roy , Pischineuch is North West of the Lochfield settlement near Lochfield Loch , yet Long Green is South West of Lochfield Loch on the OS 1888 / 1913. Using the topographic features it might be a tad nearer to Lamb Hill where there is a spring.
Except that the Roy map shows the Glen Water between Pissingheuch and Lochfield, and there is no watercourse between Lochfield and Lamb Hill. Pissingheuch could be somewhere else in that locality but Roy shows it west of the Glen Water.
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A stretch of the Roy overlay from right to left and a slight anti-clockwise rotation to line up Mucks Water and Brocklees supports that, and one suspects that the surveyors walk from Lochfield to Pischenheuch was aided by a dram or 2 , as they must have lost track of the distance . and it lines up nicely with Harkhousesykes (presumably Herocksyke as was )
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Hi,
The ROY map is very interesting. I've never seen that map before.
Looking at it and comparing with one of the maps Forfarian has linked, my first thoughts are that Pischenheuch sat above Longgreen.
There is a place marked Longuide on the ROY - think that's what's written - and I'm wondering if that became Longgreen.
Looby :)
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Am starting to think it might be Muirhead by comparing the water course directions and meandering from ROY to 19th century OS . that would also fit your theory of “Longuide”being Longgreen as on both maps Lonngreen is placed following a continuos line from where the Loch Burn meets Glen Water.
Also Heugh translates as crag, glen , cliff, ravine etc . Possibly closer to Muirhead given the topographics of that and Longgreen
Fascinating stuff !
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Now I'm not sure if the Roy map reads "Longuide" or "Longside" (I was looking on my phone this morning, now I'm on my laptop ) - but regardless I think this relates to Longgreen .
Would agree with Muirhead being located in the region of the long gone Pischenheuch.
Muirhead is recorded on the 1841 & 1851 Censuses as Moorhead.
Looby :)
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https://maps.nls.uk/view/00000419
I don't see Pischinheuch on this one but less detail than Roy's map.
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some of the names are defo familiar, alongside some artistic licence in scaling it has to be said
There's also a Cameron's Moss showing on some later maps near Whitelee hill some 5.5 m direct NW of Loudounhill Farm https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=14&lat=55.6554&lon=-4.3296&layers=1&b=1
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I think for any confimation, you will need to look at the sassines and charters.
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Thanks Agnes. Never looked at them before. What’s the most accessible way to them please ?
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Probably the best information at that level is to contact the archives in Edinburgh or Glasgow https://www.ros.gov.uk/our-registers (https://www.ros.gov.uk/our-registers). Although many documents have been accrued by the government offices, there may still be some in private archives such as Mount Stuart (http://Mount Stuart) in Rothesay. Many of the documents for Loudoun have been scattered i.e. some military records for the 4th Earl are in California University. I would think either the Edinburgh or Glasgow offices would be of more help, at least they may know where to get the information. If you lived in Ayr or Glasgow, you could probably access the index to the Register of Sassines or the Great Seal volumes from the local libraries, but in either case there, it would take a lot of time trawling through them. The Great Seal is about 11 volumes of minor charters with only the last few volumes in English then further back, in Latin.
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Thanks Agnes, will try some of that, and dust-off my amo amas amat et al !
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Hi all - been doing more research, very interested in the idea that Pischinheuch might be Muirhead, and how this may relate to Covenanter history in the area. Does anyone have further resources on Covenanter Camerons in the Galston and Loudoun parishes?
If Pischinheuch is Muirhead, it sounds like it may have been inhabited by Camerons throughout the 17th century. Cameron of Pischinheuch is listed as the forebear of the Loudoun Hill Camerons in at least one family history, then John Cameron is listed as the first Cameron to have possession of Loudoun Hill farm in 1618. (Source: http://www.decorateit.ca/cameron/cameronfamily_tree.htm)
Meanwhile at the end of the century there was another John Cameron living at Muirhead, a descendant of a younger son of the Loudoun Hill line according to that same family history. According to the Baptisms Index, John Cameron at Muirhead was the father of Janet born 1675, Margaret born 1678, and Thomas born 1687.
(Source: https://www.ayrshireroots.co.uk/Genealogy/Surnames/Cameron/Camerons%20of%20Loudoun.htm)
Also in the 1684 Fugitive Rolls, under Galston Parish there is this listing:
"Cameron, Thomas, in Muirhead (NS 551 348), [in Galston parish, listed under] Loudon parish, Ayrshire"
(Source: https://drmarkjardine.wordpress.com/2011/09/26/covenanters/)
It's hard not to think that Thomas born in 1687 was most likely named for Thomas who was declared a fugitive in 1684. Also it is notable John and his wife had no children born during the worst of the "Killing Time," from 1679 to 1687.
I would love to hear any further thoughts or leads connected to this. For the record, I am doing research on my 6th g-grandfather Thomas Camron (he preferred this spelling), who sailed from Belfast to Charleston, SC in 1767 and died in Elbert County, GA sometime after 1793. Through a y-DNA test I have found out I very likely share a common male ancestor with the Loudoun Hill Camerons within the timespan they were at Loudoun Hill. (Thank you Gilbert for the help with that!) And the main thing everyone says about my ancestor Thomas was that he was a strict "old Covenanter," devoted to the Westminster Catechism and John Knox. His father was also named John, according to family tradition, and born around 1715. Then Thomas named his eldest son John so it seems likely that was indeed his father's name, based on the Scottish naming tradition.
The Thomas Cameron born 1687 at Muirhead, son of John, married Isobel Reid in 1714, then disappeared from local history. It seems possible they could have left the area after being married, especially given the new opportunities provided by the Act of Union in 1707, and had a son within the year and named him John, after Thomas' father, and when that son grew up he would have named his eldest son Thomas too. But who knows...
Any information, leads, or ideas anyone has are much appreciated!
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The farmstead named as Pissinheugh on Roy's Military Map is shown to be renamed Muirhead on the 1851 Ordnance Survey map. This map can be viewed on nls maps online. A gap in the trees corresponding to the original access road, has been left, presumably by The Forestry Commision.
The reason for renaming the site would appear to be what seems to our generation to be the rough language used. This however was standard language of the time and an associated word, appears in the original King James version of The Bible.
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I think you're right.
But I don't see any access road on the side-by-side map https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=15&lat=55.64841&lon=-4.26119&layers=5&right=BingHyb.
The Forestry Commission was established by Act of Parliament in 1919.
The valuation rolls show the proprietor of Muirhead as the Earl of Loudoun until 1920, and the tenant in 1915 and 1920 was Hugh Fleming. From 1925 to 1940 Hugh Fleming is listed as proprietor of Muirhead and Lochfield (incidentally, Sir Alexander Fleming, discoverer of penicillin, was born at Lochfield) but the ones after 1940 are not available online. Nor are any tenants listed after 1920 at Muirhead.
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Hello,
Regarding the track to Muirhead Farm. It can be found by clicking on Darvel as the search place and choosing the OS map 25 ins to mile. Then choose as your background map, the OS 1900s map. It is shown in this map snaking westward from Muirhead to meet the present road. In the Ordnance Survey 1920 background map it is no longer shown.
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Hello,
The track from Muirhead to the present day road can be seen in the Ordnance Survey map of 1900s. If you select the 1856 25 ins map of Darvel area then opt for the 1900s background map which shows the road in question. Interestingly, the 1920 map shows neither the farm or the track.
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The farmstead mentioned as Pissinsheuch in the 17th century was later listed as Muirhead in the 1854 o/s map online. The road leading to the farm, ran East and west from the present public road and can be seen on the NLS maps online on aforesaid map. Then select back ground map O/s 1900. This map shows the farm road.
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Yes, the road is shown on older maps, but its route is now through the forest. That, plus the absence of a tenant in the valuation rolls from 1920 onwards, suggests to me that the house was abandoned when Hugh Fleming acquired it and Lochfield. Presumably he farmed both lots of land from Lochfield, and no longer needed the house at Pischinheuch/Muirhead.
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Still regarding the Farmstead named as Pischinsheuch. This farm may have been named after a swimming area of the Glen Water, Darvel by using the French word for swimming pool and not as it might first appear.
This part of Ayrshire welcomed many Huguenot refugees from France after the Edict of Nantes, took away their freedom of worship. The Earl of Loudoun was instrumental, in providing them sanctuary. The surname Fleming comes from refugees who settled in Southern Scotland, particularly in the 1400s, from the Low Countries. No doubt French words were incorporated into Scots.
The Glen Water and it's tributary, the Pogiven Burn, used to be a popular picnic and swimming area for local people and still are to a lesser extent.
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What an interesting idea :)
Might be worth asking the Scottish Place-Name Society https://spns.org.uk/