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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: chedburger on Tuesday 30 March 10 10:57 BST (UK)
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I have found a 'marine store dealer' at Wickambrook (Suffolk)
chedburger
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hi ched,
this may help
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=51c8c159af7d1702e947b5fc5b596fa6&topic=125495.0
kerry
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Thanks so much!
I see you are interested in Pettitt,so am I.How far have you got.
My Pettits are in Wickhambrook and Ousden (Suffolk)
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The term marine store dealer is also commonly used to refer to people of Romany origin (gypsies), many of whom would have settled down at some point.
Good grief! I have one of those in my line - that'll explain my wanderlust then! ;D
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A Marine Store Dealer was a licensed broker who bought and sold used cordage, bunting, rags, timber, metal and other general waste materials. He usually sorted the purchased waste by kind, grade etc. He also repaired and mended sacks etc.
Marine Store Dealers were governed by an Act of Parliament 1st. Geo. IV. sec.16 cap.75. Which enacted that every marine-store-dealer shall have his name inserted in legible characters over his shop-door and shall also keep a book in which he shall insert the name and address of any person from whom he shall buy any article.
Apparently Marine Store Dealers were also not allowed to buy full lengths of rope. A search of the "Times" archive brings up many references to them and nearly all were in relation to police courts. In Dicken's "A Christmas Carol" is Joe, a marine store dealer and receiver of stolen goods.
From the OED
3. marine-store dealer, keeper, shop.
1836 DICKENS Sketches by Boz 1st Ser. I. 238 There is not a marine-store shop in the neighbourhood which does not exhibit for sale some faded articles of dramatic finery. 1836 DICKENS Sketches by Boz 1st Ser. I. 91 The marine-store dealer at the corner of the street. 1844 Ainsworth's Mag. 6 112 A marine-store keeper of the pilfered orts and ends of literature. 1851 H. MAYHEW London Labour II. 139/1 Anything that is saleable at the rag-and-bottle or marine-store shop. 1869 Punch 17 July 22/1 They were marine-store dealers. 1922 Econ. Jrnl. 32 308 The improving organisation of the marine-store dealers and other handlers of ‘junk’. 1964 ELH 31 311 William departs with Susan to set up a marine-stores shop.
Stan
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The term marine store dealer is also commonly used to refer to people of Romany origin (gypsies), many of whom would have settled down at some point.
Good grief! I have one of those in my line - that'll explain my wanderlust then! ;D
Hmmm Interesting!
I have 2 sides of my family with the same occupation, one I am pretty sure ISNT gypsy as they are pretty settled in the area for generation.................... the other is Irish & I cant find much out about them at all, the family are very elusive on their origins in cencus's, so could be possible.
Gaille
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I'm the same with mine - a brickwall.
And I've since searched the term further, and it suggests that it often refers to gypsies/Romany's of Irish descent, many of whom adopted common surnames and traditional first names when they were trying to become respectable - mine's called John Smith and he's Irish! (Smith is one of the most popular ones used apparently).
I'm sure ALL Irish marine store dealers with the name Smith couldn't possibly have been Romany's but there are a lot of coinkydinks there for me to be intrigued.
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And I've since searched the term further,
How does this differ from what I posted :)
Stan
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How does this differ from what I posted
What?
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How does this differ from what I posted
What?
I was only interested if, when you searched the term further, you found that what the term meant was different to what I said.
Stan
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This is an interesting topic.
Just to add to the list, I too have a marine store dealer in St Helens run by a John Murphy who is Irish and lives with his sister and later his wife, he isnt technically mine but only adopted one of 'my' orphan children.
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Just to add somethings from my research. I have several marine store dealers in my ancestry. They are not from gypsy stock and seem to have taken up the trade, just I think as a way to make a living. Sometimes they describe themselves as general dealers. Because when I first uncovered them they were living in coastal or river areas of Kent I took it as a literal trade in goods related to nautical vessels, however having found some who were living inland it does appear to refer to a broader dealership in waste materials as described by stanmapstone. And yes some did get in trouble for receiving stolen goods!
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My 2g grandfather was a marine store dealer - which initially intrigued me as he lived in Bedfordshire - not only is the county landlocked, but every county it borders is landlocked too.
As well as a marine store dealer he described himself as a general dealer and rag and bone man. With the British Newspaper Archive I've also found recently that he was a convicted diamond thief and stole clothes from his parents and sisters to sell.
Not aware of any Gypsy connections on that side though - his family appears to have been publicans and dealers for some years before he was born and reasonably settled in one area.
R
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If you look at my post you will see that although a gypsy could be a marine-store dealer, a marine-store dealer was not necessarily anything to do with gypsies. There were 1,550 marine-store dealers in the 1851 census, and 3,656 in 1861.
If you search for 'marine store dealer' in occupation in the 1881 census, there are 2,566 listed and they are located all over the country.
Stan
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My Great grandfather from Sheffield was a Marine Store Dealer, it was in the family, he used his second name sometimes , then his first name , moved and brought it with them Marine Sore Dealer, I guessed it wasn't a great job, was told he sold a forest through the demon drink, that could be another story
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I am trying to find out if there is any information about the shops that Marine Store Keepers had?
My great, great grandfather Thomas Greenwood is described as a Marine Store Keeper on various records.
He was baptised on 20th July 1817 in Hebden Bridge, Heptonstall St Thomas, and came to Manchester with his parents and siblings between about 1827 and 1830, and is on the 1841 census with his parents and siblings in Silk Street, Manchester. His marriage on 29th June 1846 at Manchester Cathedral to Bridget Ward, gives his residence as 30 Angel Street, Manchester, and his job as Marine Store Keeper. Bridget's father is described on the marriage record as James Ward, labourer, born Ireland.
On the 1846 birth certificate of his son, my great grandfather Hiram Greenwood, born 20th September 1846, at Henry Street, Ancoats, Manchester (though other records say Hiram was born in Hulme, and Henry Street was the address where Thomas' father Henry Greenwood died in March 1847), Thomas' job is given as Waste Dealer.
On the 1848 birth certificate of his younger son James Henry Greenwood, on 7th January 1848 at Cellar, 48 Medlock Street, Hulme, Thomas is described as a Marine Store Keeper.
On the 1851 living at 3, Clegg Court, Hulme, Thomas is described as a Broker. Age 32, with wife Bridget 28, sons Hiram 4, and James 3, and Bridget's younger siblings.
On the 1852 Whellan and Co's Directory of Manchester, Thomas Greenwood is described as a Pawnbroker, at 66 Carruthers Street. Not sure this is him, could be.
On the 1855 Slaters Directory of Manchester, Thomas Greenwood, Marine Store Keeper, River Street. This is just round the corner from Medlock Street where his younger son was born. I feel fairly certain this is him. This reference particularly I would like to find out where his shop was and if I can identify the premises on a map?
Thomas's whole family is absent from the 1861 census, though son Hiram turns up on the 1871 census in Salford with Irish born wife Mary Ann (Roche) and two infant daughters. 1867 death of Bridget on 30th December at 1 Court, Bennett Street, now Bendix Street, Ancoats, wife of Thomas Greenwood, porter, Chronic Bronchitis, age 49. 1871 lodger age 52, born Hepdon (sic) Bridge, Card Dealer, Market Street, with wife Anne age 40.
1873 Whitesmith, 23 Long Millgate, UK City and County Directories.
1873 death 12th March at 63 Long Millgate, age 56, Card Picker, Died of Cardiac Bronchitis Anasarca, Informant Ann Greenwood.
15th March 1873 burial, Philips Park cemetery.
I would also like to see if there is a link with his father in law, James Ward?
James Ward was mentioned on the marriage record of Thomas Greenwood and Bridget Ward in 1846, Manchester, labourer, born Ireland.
1841 census, has a James Ward age 40, Broker, born Ireland, residence Medlock Street, Hulme, with others including Anne age 15 and head Hector Chalmers, age 40, Agent, born Ireland. James Ward's grandson James Henry Greenwood was born at Cellar, 48 Medlock Street, Hulme, in January 1848 and Thomas Greenwood had a Marine Store just round the corner in River Street in 1855.
The 1861 census in Cross Street, Collegiate, Manchester, has James Ward head age 65 shoemaker born County Meath, Ireland with wife Ann 60 shoe seller born County Meath Ireland and daughter Ann 35 shoe maker unmarried born County Meath Ireland.
I am wondering if the Ann Greenwood living with Thomas Greenwood on the 1871 census, and the Informant at his death, was the younger sister of Thomas' first wife Bridget Ward? I can't find a marriage for them, but Bridget died on 30th December 1867.
I would love to find out if James Ward was in the same business as Thomas Greenwood. Their families seem close, Bridget's younger siblings, Betsy and John Ward, were living with Thomas and family on the 1851 census, and it could be Ann Ward who married Thomas after his wife and her older sister Bridget died.
Where would I find out more about the physical location of Marine Stores in Hulme, Manchester and more about their owners? And Thomas is alternatively described as a Broker, was this just another term for a Marine Store Keeper? James Ward is also described on the 1841 census as a Broker, living with another Irish born Broker as head of house.
And what was a Card Dealer and a Card Picker. I am almost sure it was something to do with the cotton industry and Cards something to do with Cotton, but it could be something to do with gambling, I don't really know? Was it some kind of broker in Cards used in the Cotton industry?
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Duplicate post https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=813913.msg6747176#msg6747176
Stan
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Duplicate post https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=813913.msg6747176#msg6747176
Stan
I was going to delete the one on this thread, as it probably needs more local knowledge to get any answers?
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Yes a card was an instrument for combing wool. Can't see how it fits though unless he needed another income.
There were 2 explanations for the occupation CARDER A. someone who operated machines that prepared industrial or consumer products for storage or shipment, that might work with his trade
B. A person who operated a carding machine used to prepare wool and cotton for weaving by removing the knots and tangles. This could also fit with Marine Store dealer as one of their commodities was rope. I didn't come across that actual occupations you mention only in modern terms as in actually dealing playing cards in a game
As an aside,
Hydrops Ana sarka, also known as Dropsy, is an accumulation of serum in the tissue under the skin, from the blood via the vascular system, which with gravity accumulates usually in the lower legs.
from a too low cardiac output, a reduced urinary excretion or a protein deficiency.
Causes, right heart failure, kidney failure, Protein deficiency: nephrotic syndrome, liver cirrhosis, malabsorption syndrome.
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As an aside,
Hydrops Anasarka, also known as Dropsy, is an accumulation of serum in the tissue under the skin, from the blood via the vascular system, which with gravity accumulates usually in the lower legs.
from a too low cardiac output, a reduced urinary excretion or a protein deficiency.
Causes, right heart failure, kidney failure, Protein deficiency: nephrotic syndrome, liver cirrhosis, malabsorption syndrome.
Thanks for that information. Yes, I had obtained the death certificates for many members of this family and a lot of them seemed to die of Anasarca, from Henry Greenwood 1797-1847, cause of death Dropsy, his son Thomas Greenwood 1817-1873, cause of death Cardiac Bronchitis Anasarca, his other son Hiram Greenwood 1820-1855, cause of death Asthma Anasarca, effusion on brain, his daughter Sarah Greenwood 1824-1858, cause of death Albuminuria. That is three of Henry Greenwood's children all dying of similar diagnoses, and his other children I don't know what they died of because I didn't get the death certificates, and three died in infancy. Only the two sons, Thomas and Hiram, survived infancy, and of the daughters, Sarah died of Albuminuria, I don't know about Mary because I don't have her death certificate, and I don't know about Jane because she died in America.
It could have been a genetic predisposition, or it could have been a common cause of death in that time and place due to living or working conditions.
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Very welcome. That's fascinating. Have one or two in my husbands family, kidney problems.
I found the following explanation of Marine Store Dealer: A person who buys and sells used cordage, bunting, rags, timber, metal, etc, sorts waste, repairs and mends sacks.
Perhaps it was translated incorrectly and was meant to be CORD DEALER / CORD PICKER