RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: rob g on Wednesday 31 March 10 14:06 BST (UK)
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hi, all as with many of our members, i am a full blood traveller/gypsy, i see many questions asked about romany people. and would be willing to give any advice as to ways rituals customs etc,also with old romany surnames mostly in the north of england,but i may be able to help with lots of questions about gypsy life old and new.. rob g
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Not sure if this falls into the category you are offering.
Looking at Smith, Burnside and perhaps Bradley in the Guisborough (and perhaps South Durham) area.
Would a girl child born Burnside "marry" a Bradley (no record of marrriage), then become Smith (single woman). Would there be any reasons for this in traveller customs? The Smith continued the association with the Burnside when she married by "legal" means in a church.
Ceeoh
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help plz
I grew up being told we had links to romany gypsy. I have passed this story onto my own children but want to find facts. Its on my fathers side - surnames so far mackie, doe (although i have been told this was sometimes dow), fisher and wise or wyse, fisher and paton. No one left on my fathers side to ask.
Should I be looking at any of these names??? Most of these families are in fife, scotland. Can anyone help me on my journey????
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hi , kdyangie, paton and fisher are gypsy related names. try following those up at first.there are too many sites to mention on romanys, but a good one to start is romany genes, get on to these,and you will definetly find some fishers there. olso look for occupations in the census.hawkers, dealers etc, and at the name of spouses as these can be a good source of info on romany names and familys. good luck..rob g
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hi, ceeoh, smith and burnside are old romany names, i myself am related to both. they also come from the county durham area.as to the name change,if it was a long time back, men and women both re married soon after losing a partner,there was no benefits or aid so they would need support and help with living costs, and would remarry, often very quickly.also travelling women would, and still do, go by there maiden names. so a girl could be known as burnside and smith at the same time ie annie burnside,would still be called that even though she wed a smith, any other name may be again, be that she remarried more than once.my own g.grandfather on both maternal and parernal sides was was married three times to gypsy women. and my g.mother twice it was the norm in victorian times and futher back. as to the marriage certs item, as romanys moved around a lot and they can be hard to trace,but romany people are very strict and nearly allways were married,as opposed to living together.good luck. rob g
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thnx rob
the names I have are james fisher(c1815) marrying a jean/jane fisher and know of 1 child euphemia paton(c1837).
I am so excited now, fingers crossed I can back up this story with fact. I have always felt a pride to have a romany connection :)
angie
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Many thanks rob g
This great grandmother of mine has a very complicated story, she could have been born Smith or Burnside - (1831 - 1839) no record of a likely Smith but there is a likely *Mary Burnside.
She may have "married" a Bradley and had a son Joseph - no sign of a marriage, or of the family after the 1861 census
No sign of a likely Mary Smith on census 1841 to 1861
First child with my g-grandfather(Grout) 1863 mother registered as Mary Groath Smith, formerly Smith (Does this give the impression she was born Smith and married a Smith? The child's name was Grout.
First child baptised - mother Mary Smith a single woman
1871 with the family is son Joseph Smith age 14 no record of his birth (was he Joseph Bradley?)
1869 (after the birth of three children) marries my grandfather as Mary Smith single woman father John Smith (not entered as deceased.) Witnesses at the marriage *Ambrose and Isabella Burnside.
As a family they were pretty constant in the Guisborough/Brotton area, apart from going to Belmont (Durham) to get married then returning to Brotton.
Does this make any sense?
Thanks for your reply to my query
Ceeoh
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Hello
I hope you don't mind me chipping in. I am descended from the same family as Ceeoh and I just wanted to ask you about marriage. When you say they were strict about marriage, do you mean a legally recognised marriage in church, or would there be Romany alternatives that were considered equally valid and might this explain why we can't find a marriage record for Mary Burnside or James Bradley?
Many thanks
Julie
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hi Steve wonder if you could help with Gentle family cant find my g grandparents in 1881 census i know that my grandfather was boarded out with Seabridge age 9 in stone staffs his parents were William Gentle born ox banbury 1836 married Mary Ann brion akabrian born KETERING 1840 WHY would they leave thier children also cant find his sibligs John Ben George and arthur any help would be appreciated many thanks Kath email (*)
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Hello
Just curious. Are the surnames Arnold and Eastwood Romany names?
Thankyou.
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Hello Stomper,
Yes,definately.
John Arnold married Mercy Huckstep 29/11/1834 St Johns,Margate.
Sons:
John married Sophia Hedges March quart 1858 Romford.
Alfred to Frances(Fanny) Eastwood,not married.
Edwin married 1st Selina Hedges 05/07/1866 Plumstead.
2nd Keziah Broadwood june quart 1891 Chatham.
I believe Arnolds stopped at Eastwoods Yard,and many settled in Medway.
Nel.
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hello nelwild,
Have sent you a personal PM.
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Hi rob g
My GG-gran is a Harriet cooper A Romany Gypsy who married a Gorier Does that mean i have Romany blood as most of my grandparents in my tree are Romany? Lots with occ/as Hawkers and dealers/and horse dealers
And my G-gran they called a Tinker whats a tinker is it irish? as there is colouring of ginger in the family. So the Romany and tinker on my dads side. The curds,penfolds etc
on my mums side there is Traveller connections foster and lovetts. Are Romany and tinkers and Traveller the same sort of people?
jew
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hi, jew, well, rakli (..young woman..) there are so many romany names in your tree that it is a wonder that you are not out..dukkering!(..fortune telling..) any way cooper, penfold, foster,and lovet, sometimes lovell or just love, are all really old romany names.so you are of romany blood. as to the occupations, i have given lots before, but here are some to look for, earthenware dealer/potter. horse trader,basket weavers . hawker, general dealers, tinker?.. repairer of tin wares pots pans etc..olso fish sellers.as in barrals of herring etc from a cart. rag trades, and as gypsy men and women, have allways turned a hand to anything you can find lots more. my g.father used to gather lockings,..sheeps wool off cuts.. and scrap, also sold fruit from a cart, as for the relationship of travellers to each other it is very complicated, but i wil try to explain with out taking too long.first there are true romanygypsy/black faced. then romany travellers, inter married with the gypsy for centurys. tinker folk can be english but there are lots of scottish and irish in this group.also travelling hawkers. and others who for one reason or another...ie.. irish famine..scots highland clearances, and olso the welsh, etc, joined the romany on the road.so now there are all travellers, but with very different ways. but with a comman language,rumnus..romany, and many shared values, also we have all inter married with each other to the extent it is hard to find any one among us who is not related in some way to another? one of the earliest romany names is lee, starting in epping forrest. there is too much romany history to go into, but try romany genes site, and there are lots of online sites worth a look. be proud of your romany roots we are a great people, who have allways found a way to live,.. cushty bok..(good luck.) in romany ..rob.g
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Tinker is a trade name - it means a tinsmith, someone who mends pots n pans etc. It was a trade often carried out by travelling people, whether they were Irish travelling folks or English. The name Tinker came to mean Irish travellers in the olden days, its generally not used now - Most Irish travellers would prefer you called them just that, or Pavee which is their name for themselves. Unfortunatly, the name Tinker like Gypsy can have negative derogatory connotations these days, so be careful about using it. Just a friendly bit of information. :)
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Hi rob
sorry i could not get back before hand i was busy... Thanks for your info.. Black face gipsy don't know who these people are? I have lots of romany names in my tree.. The fosters in my famiy are dark skinned runs in the family my G-grandad a foster also married a lovett who are dark skinned. And found my brookers who are dark skinned.. I have lots of hawkers,pedlers,dealers in the family.. My curds and markets stalls,veg shops,and one was the biggest horse dealer in the south of england who married a kezia taylor. There is a book wrote about my lovett family with my fosters,also in the book tells a story about my GGG-grandad who married kezia,about his horse dealing. He used to buy the horses from the robert family,who moved to wales from sussex.. I have more names in my tree,millers,skinners etc. so proud of my history. My potters some came from sussex need to know about them. Anyany thanks need to write this info down you gave me. The tinker not sure if mine came from Ireland,as there id ginger hair in the family..
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An65
Thank-you for your message. Great to know what a tinker is.. ps i wont use the name lol! Don't want to upset anyone.
jew
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Hi rob
Dukkering) I've always wanted to do this,maybe it runs in the family lol!
jew
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Out of them brothers you put up there Ben Gentle was my grandfather. Also he had 9 sons and he left England to go to Ireland. Also he was burried in Killkenny. Ben's wife was called Nora Hall and she came from Kent and my father was called Johno Gentle. The name of the 9 brothers:
George, Roy, Bill, Fred, Johno, Edward, Pato, Arthur and Jim. They are all dead now. And we were Romany Gypsy's. Ben Gentle was a horse dealer. And if you want to know any more just ask.
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Hi. In the late 50s/60s. When we went to Appleby fair. My dad used to have a crack with roy gentle. He was or seemed old then.he always had a good living wagon.and horses. My father knew him all his life. Old roy. Used to say . gentle not simple. .l sometimes have a drink with his g.son. could he be the same man you mentioned?
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hello Rob
thanks for mail yes it is the same Roy he was my grandfathers nephew my grandfather was William Gentle known as Bill would you have any information about John Gentle married Charlotte Marshall 1895 I Know they had links with Preston my mother used to tell me about a carpet shop ithink one of his sons married a Jimimia Varey 1925 cant seem to find out much about them I would be grateful if you could help thanks Kath kathbn
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Hi. Again. Just a ps.i have nothing on John. Or his wife. But am a distant relative of the vareys. In Lancashire bolton areas. Olso the. Marshalls.but the Scottish ones. .Bye for now. Rob
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Hello Rob
thanks for mail the marshalls are also related my mothers brother Leonard married Mizzley Marshall. As my mother was youngest of 16 she was only born as they got married,also mams great aunt married Issac marshall her name was Louisa Gentle she died in carpet van outside public house Holts Arms Billinge Lancs,i think that was around 1903 also A Margaret Gentle
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hey kath my names jim Gentle , my grandfather was john gentle and grandmother Jemima varey we are from lancaster england but have moved to austrailia , if you would like more info i could you add you on facebook and you could get more info from my parents . cheers
also know old roy gentle
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Bill Gentle, my uncle, used to live in Golburn, Lanks. Also Annie, your aunt, used to live in Plank lane because I went to see her with my Dad, Mum, Uncle Bill and aunt; you had another cousin that lived in Leigh and his name was Jim Gentle and his wife Lily. Another cousin also lived around that area caleed Connie who owned 5, 6 or more houses.
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Out of them brothers you put up there Ben Gentle was my grandfather. Also he had 9 sons and he left England to go to Ireland. Also he was burried in Killkenny. Ben's wife was called Nora Hall and she came from Kent. The name of the 9 brothers:
George, Roy, Bill, Fred, Johno, Edward, Pato, Arthur and Jim. They are all dead now. And we were Romany Gypsy's. Ben Gentle was a horse dealer. And if you want to know any more just ask.
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Bill Gentle, my uncle, used to live in Golburn, Lanks. Also Annie, your aunt, used to live in Plank lane because I went to see her with my Dad, Mum, Uncle Bill and aunt; you had another cousin that lived in Leigh and his name was Jim Gentle and his wife Lily. Another cousin also lived around that area caleed Connie who owned 5, 6 or more houses.
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Hi trying to find things out on Charles hassell
Rebecca Moses and the Cody family. My nan never spoke much about her past
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Hi. Claire. Moses. And cody. Surnames have romany connections. Don't know about hassle? Try romany gene's site. But the best advice I can give. Is start with your own family. Going as far back as you can. See what they do for a living. And who they are married to. When you have any further information. Get back. And I will try to help. ..Rob.
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Out of them brothers you put up there Ben Gentle was my grandfather. Also he had 9 sons and he left England to go to Ireland. Also he was burried in Killkenny. Ben's wife was called Nora Hall and she came from Kent. The name of the 9 brothers:
George, Roy, Bill, Fred, Johno, Edward, Pato, Arthur and Jim. They are all dead now. And we were Romany Gypsy's. Ben Gentle was a horse dealer. And if you want to know any more just ask.
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hello Arthur
do you anything about John Gentle he was Bens older brother I know he married Charlotte MARSHALL but did they have any family? BENS twin George died 1901 and John GENTLE paid for buriel .Benalso had adaughter Hester but she died very young.Do you know anything about William Gentle who married MARY ANN BRYAN WALLSALL STAFFORDSHIRE HOPE to hear from you soon
Regards Kath
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Bill Gentle, my uncle, used to live in Golburn, Lanks. Also Annie, your aunt, used to live in Plank lane because I went to see her with my Dad, Mum, Uncle Bill and aunt; you had another cousin that lived in Leigh and his name was Jim Gentle and his wife Lily. Another cousin also lived around that area caleed Connie who owned 5, 6 or more houses.
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Out of them brothers you put up there Ben Gentle was my grandfather. Also he had 9 sons and he left England to go to Ireland. Also he was burried in Killkenny. Ben's wife was called Nora Hall and she came from Kent and my father was called Johno Gentle. The name of the 9 brothers:
George, Roy, Bill, Fred, Johno, Edward, Pato, Arthur and Jim. They are all dead now. And we were Romany Gypsy's. Ben Gentle was a horse dealer. And if you want to know any more just ask.
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Out of them brothers you put up there Ben Gentle was my grandfather. Also he had 9 sons and he left England to go to Ireland. Also he was burried in Killkenny. Ben's wife was called Nora Hall and she came from Kent and my father was called Johno Gentle. The name of the 9 brothers:
George, Roy, Bill, Fred, Johno, Edward, Pato, Arthur and Jim. They are all dead now. And we were Romany Gypsy's. Ben Gentle was a horse dealer. And if you want to know any more just ask.
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Hi I'm wondering if you could help?
My Grandpa always used to say we had a gypsy princess in the family from his wifes mothers side and that's why I nearly got Zena as my given name (after my Great Grandma Ambrosina). My dads family are all from Retford and have been for a great many years.
My 3rd great grandmother was called Ambersina Hebrozena Wainwright and she married a Henry Brett back in the 1860's.
They had 5 daughters (Sarah Jane, Agnes Emily, Grace, Cora and Florence) and 4 sons (George Henry, Mordecai, Joseph and James).
Anyway, Ambersinas father was called Mordecai Boswell Wainwright, born in 1820 in Misterton, Nottinghamshire. When I start looking at his familys given names they are bizarre (Absalom, Phoenix, Trinity etc).
Can you tell me if this info is correct and anymore about this family?
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Hi. Jodi. Where to start? First there's really no such thing as romany royalty in this country. But lots of people get called king of the gypsies. Etc. Just a name. There was a king of the Scottish tinkers. Way back. He was called William Marshall. Ancestors of a relative of mine. Investiture at kirk Yetholm. Not far from where I live. Anyway lots of travellers took biblical names.so some seem a bit odd.but we still use strange sounding names.part of the culture.the surnames you mentioned are romany.so your on the right track. Try finding occupations. And people who are marrying into the family. Boswells are a very old romany family. And lots of travellers call children by a spouse's surname. your in the right areas. Lots of travellers live in the areas you mentioned. My own son stays at a site near Retford. Regularly. As I have done. Sorry I cannot give you more information on your family. But try romany gene's site. It's very good. Cushty bokt.good luck..rob g
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Hi
I was talking with someone recently about family history and possibly having romany links, we both have stories in our families, so I thought I would post them here to see if you have an idea where we can begin to look.
It was the last post about gyspy royalty that made me think because the lady I was talking to has a story that they are descended from Spanish Gypsy Royalty on her father's side but she doesn't know which specific family, the surnames aren't particularly unusual.... Snell, Luff, Huntley, Nash, Winter, Facknell and Chamberlain.... Two elderly cousins have separately told her this story but I'm not sure where to start to suggest where we can find out any answers.
My story is my Grt Grandfather Harry Winney apparently 'did the dirty by a gypsy girl and abandoned her' which is why he moved from West Bromwich where he was born in 1880 to Walthamstow (in 1901 census) where he met (but did not marry) my grt grandmother and had my Gran in 1903 and her sister a few years later. Only after my Gran died did I discover that he was already married to an Agnes Troth in 1899 and had a daughter Dorothy in 1900, who he abandoned when he moved south (he did the same again to my Gran and her sister a few years later when he emigrated to Canada). I have been unable to trace what happened to either Dorothy or her mother. I was wondering if Troth is a romany name... and could this be where the story came from?
Thank you
Vicky
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Hi. Vicky. There are so many sites to visit. Type romany history in and lots will come up. Romany genes is very good. Give that one a try first. In this country we are rom. Gypsies in northern Europe are sinte. eastern ones are roma.all quite different. Bit like north American indians. Anyway winter is a travelling name have camped with many definitely a travellers name. Nash. Fracknell. And Chamberlain all have romany connections. But it doesn't mean that they are. By the way Quite a boy! Your man. There's lots of emigrated gypsies in uk. Has been for hundreds of years. So the Spanish link is likely. But as I say there is no real royalty. In travelling people. If you can find other travellers surnames in your tree. And jobs etc. Then you can trace those up. But remember that gypsies change surnames. And have lots of nick names. It can be confusing. As for troth. I have not come across it. But that's not too say it is not a travellers name. Olso as I have said before. Gorgio men marrying romany girls often take her surname. Not much help. I know. But if you get anything. And want to get back feel free. Cushty bokt..good luck) rob g.
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Hi Rob
Thank you so much for your reply, thats great as the furthest back this lady has gone is a Meshach Winters abt 1800 in the Bristol area, possibly marrying a Sarah Fracknell....definitely a possible area for her to research more.
Yes my grt granddad was a real character by the sounds of it.... I will keep searching for the Troth link.
Many thanks again. Vicky
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Hi everyone,
I was wondering if anyone can help me with my Romany lines. My main ancestor I am looking for more information on is Snow Alley Boswell also known as Maria/Mary Boswell. She was convicted and sent out to Australia for horse stealing, prostitution, more larceny among other things. She was convicted for the horse stealing in Warwickshire, England with a John Price. She was sent out in 1828 to Tasmania, Australia better known as Van Diemen's Land then.
Her parents were Josiah Boswell and Hannah (surname unknown). He was a tinkerer travelling in the Nottinghamshire area when she was convicted. As stated on her record. She was one of three girls born to the pair.
As far as I have been able to tell Josiah was the son of Richard Boswell and Phyllis Blewitt. Along with his siblings: Absolom Boswell; Israel Boswell; Lucy Boswell; Trinity Boswell; and Zachariah Boswell. I think they were his only siblings as I'm trying to find more research on them.
My great grandmother used to tell us all stories about her family being Gypsies when we were all little.
Any information would be greatly appreciated if anyone has any.
Kind regards
Tamika Phillips
(Victoria, Australia)
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Hi. Tamika. Well you have done some research. I tend to give information on recent romany life. And family . I can say that the Boswells are a really old gypsy people. I have camped with them on and off all my life. They travelled all of the UK. I live in the north. And there's lots
In this area. It's not possible to give names etc of those I know. But yours is a interesting story. I am sure that you will find lots of people with info.try looking at the lancashire on line parish clerk sit (lanc opc) as lot's of Boswells lived in Lancashire. It's free. And with your information you may find something. Or try romany genes site. .rob..
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Hi Rob,
Thank you for your information! It was nice to meet someone who is still in touch with the Romany culture.
Tamika
Victoria, Australia
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Hi Rob. I've just posted this on the following topic: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=310556.18 and then I discovered your post and wondered if you may be able to help.
"My Gran's adopted sister was Lilian (Lily) Boswell born on 6 April 1904 in Birkenhead, and adopted by Walter & Mary Jane Lyon (nee Poole) of Barnton, Cheshire. I know her birth mother was Mary Ellen Boswell from the birth certificate, and her residence at the time of birth was 24 Livingstone Road, Tranmere. When Lily was a few weeks/months old, Mary Ellen sent a letter to the Lyons from where she was staying in Llanfairfechan. From what she said, it seems that she was in service, and the letter was signed "E Boswell", so I'm assuming that she went by Ellen.
I've got a posting on the Cheshire board looking into all the possible Mary Ellen Boswells in the region, plus you can view the letter there: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=648730.0
I've also posted on the Caernarvonshire board, and you can find they topic here: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=649105.0
I would appreciate any help in determining where Mary Ellen Boswell was born, who her family were and what happened to her. I've not looked at the gypsy angle before, so maybe this is where I'm going to find some answers - fingers crossed!
Thanks for reading, and do have a look at the letter on the Cheshire board - I think it's lovely."
Terri
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hi. t.g. read the letter. sad really. but seems to have turned out ok. there are a few things that make me think there's no Romany connection. 1. she was educated. 2. there are no occupations. that fit gypsies. 3.apart from Boswell I don't recognize the surnames as travellers. if you want to learn a little more on the subject. contact me on pm. but whatever as allways nice to hear from you.and a lovely letter.thanks for sharing it.sorry I can't help further. yours rob.
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Thanks Rob for your reply. I see where you're coming from with your arguments against her being a traveller, but it's good to explore all avenues when you hit a brick wall! I just wish I could find out who gave birth to this lovely lady who was my (Great) Auntie Lily!
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Hi if you have any infomation... My great nan was hannah burnside born n York and died in the late 60s by hit and run. We are also related to the hunters and small and my nans grandad had donkeys on Whitley bay. Do you have any infomation or no the family's. Thank you
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Hi. Keelie. Sorry for the late reply.Been busy. Its not site policy to research members family that may be living. But I can say that the Burnside family are related to me. On both maternal and paternal sides. I cannot remember a Hannah being ran down . but I was a child in the sixties. lots of the Burnside family live in Yorkshire.very old traveller name. Olso I know the Hunter family. Lots around the Darlington area. And all of Yorkshire. Don't know any smalls sadly. But Romany people did do donkey rides etc. In fact anything really. Do you still camp.? Or are you settled. Best place to start as allways is with the oldest family members. There are lots of sites on gypsy folks. If you're interested.in tracing your family back. But this as been the most helpful to me. Sorry I can't give more information. If you have any questions please feel free to post me ..rob
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Hi rob thanks for your reply, I didn't no that sorry it's my first time on this forum. My nan said she thinks nanny Hannah's mum was called maybal which will be my nans nan. Also my nanny hannah had a few children that were called jean, Audrey, johnny, jimmy, bella, Betty, William and Christine. Half of them settled and half didn't. Audrey, jean and bella settled because jean is my nan but she passed when my mum was 9 so my nanny Audrey took my mum in, which is my real nan jeans sister. jimmy was still travelling and William was to but Williams defferently died as I remember him when I was younger, his children are still travelling though. Johnny died at the age of 2 from meninjistis from not pasteurised milk and Betty also stayed travelling and married someone called jimmy. My mum said jimmy used to paint wagons. I don't no if you can help with any of this infomation? I can't seem to find any infomation on my great nanny hannah on any site. Thanks
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Out of them brothers you put up there Ben Gentle was my grandfather. Also he had 9 sons and he left England to go to Ireland. Also he was burried in Killkenny. Ben's wife was called Nora Hall and she came from Kent and my father was called Johno Gentle. The name of the 9 brothers:
George, Roy, Bill, Fred, Johno, Edward, Pato, Arthur and Jim. They are all dead now. And we were Romany Gypsy's. Ben Gentle was a horse dealer. And if you want to know any more just ask.
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Hi, my father was Fred Gentle, his father was George Gentle. 1 of the 9 brothers. But was there not also 2 sisters that died very young.
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Hi. Thank you for your reply. I know my gran was moses and she married Charles hassell and then James Jenkins. She was from Coates Bridge Scotland and settled in bowesfield camp in the 40s my grandad built the schoolhouse up to 2 floors for his large family I will get more info for you. Thank you so much
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Hi everyone,
I was wondering if anyone can help me with my Romany lines. My main ancestor I am looking for more information on is Snow Alley Boswell also known as Maria/Mary Boswell. She was convicted and sent out to Australia for horse stealing, prostitution, more larceny among other things. She was convicted for the horse stealing in Warwickshire, England with a John Price. She was sent out in 1828 to Tasmania, Australia better known as Van Diemen's Land then.
Her parents were Josiah Boswell and Hannah (surname unknown). He was a tinkerer travelling in the Nottinghamshire area when she was convicted. As stated on her record. She was one of three girls born to the pair.
As far as I have been able to tell Josiah was the son of Richard Boswell and Phyllis Blewitt. Along with his siblings: Absolom Boswell; Israel Boswell; Lucy Boswell; Trinity Boswell; and Zachariah Boswell. I think they were his only siblings as I'm trying to find more research on them.
My great grandmother used to tell us all stories about her family being Gypsies when we were all little.
Any information would be greatly appreciated if anyone has any.
Kind regards
Tamika Phillips
(Victoria, Australia)
Hi Tamika, I have only just seen this post. I hope you get this message. This is a cousin of mine and although I know very little about her I would love to talk to you and find out how you gathered all your information, Thank you Barbara xx