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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: polidor on Monday 05 April 10 17:08 BST (UK)
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Ethel Gertrude Ostler b 1884 in Forest Gate Essex died in 1943 in Saanich.
Ethel had several siblings who went to Canada.
Maria Cordelia b 1881 m Frederick Finch and d 1928 Ontario
Edith Ernestine b1869 m Frederick Armes and d 1937 Ontario
Herbert Arthur b 1875 m Caroline Baldwin and d 1956 Toronto
Leonard Cyril b 1883 m Jane Morry and d 1969 Victoria
This info was given to me a long time ago and i cannot remember from whence it came!!
According to Free BMD Ethel Gertrude married in 1905 to either--Frederick Hemson or Felix Dezombre
I cant find any combination of Ethel with either surname in the English 1911. Assmed then, that Ethel had gone to Canada between 1905 and 1911?
Have trawled a lot of the sites on offer here but to no avail.
Passenger lists throw up nothing solid even with misspellings that i have followed up.
Looked at obituary and crematory lists--no luck
Tried the BC Archives with Ethel and both of the men's surnames.
Has anyone ideas i could try for further searches please.
I haven't yet started chasing up her siblings lives in Canada yet because i just want to marry Ethel off to the right chap and then i can start chasing them all :) poli
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She married Felix Charles Simon Dezonebre/Dezombre - I'm sending you a pm
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I don't think he was born in England as there is nothing on freebmd
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Might be worth looking at the 1909 entry Southampton to Buenos Aires for Felix Dezentze and Ethel Dezentze
See birth below - there is a female Dezentze b 1909 on same voyage but initials are LBH plus one with no initials
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Lydia Cordilia E Dezombre Dec qtr 1906 Kensington 1A 153
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30 Sept 1910 on board the Tunisian from Liverpool to Quebec
Felix Dezombe, 29, b. France, going to married sister in Toronto, intending to pursue career as driver
Ethel Dezombe, 26 b. England
Male child Dezombe, 3, b. England
Debbie
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/08de/
Link to the above passenger list
Debbie
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Many thanks for replying cosmac.
I shall follow this up.
I've just had some help from Carole re the marriage and now you have sent me this info. How do you all do it?
I blame my lack of 'finding things' on my computer--it's obviously plugged into another planet ;D
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Although the passenger list lists a birthplace of France there is a Canada US border crossing document for Felix Desombra b. 1880 London England, age, 31, labourer at Port Huron Michigan on 24 July 1911. He indicates that he entered Canada 19 Sep 1910 on the Tunisian. His father is George Desombra 10 Chadwell St. London.
Marriage was in London so it might tie in.
There are 2 other border crossings for Felix Dusombre born around the same year but in Canada and lists a father in Ontario and is also crossing with brothers and cousins(?). These are 1914 and 1910 at Sault Ste Marie and although the name is similar I don't think they are yours.
Debbie
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That 1880 birthyear ties in with his age on the marriage cert but no birth on freebmd to support him being born in England
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On the 1911 British census 10 Chadwell St. is occupied by George Snowdon.
The same ship and the same month and year of immigration would lead me to believe that the border crossing record ties in with your Felix.
Debbie
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You have all given me some interesting leads Thank you.
i have now received the m cert sent by Carole and the father's name doesn't look like George, i rather think it looks like Geophrey or something similar, what do you think ? and rather oddly the father's profession is Lacemaker. I thought that was something just the women did. poli
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p.s
I have just found an entry in the Free Reg for a Lydia Cordilia E. Dezombre Born Dec Quarter 1906 Kensington.
The same child is noted in the births on FindMyPast as the surname Dezomode !! poli
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A witness to the marriage of Felix in 1905 was Lydia Snowden. There is a marriage
26 Apr 1903 St. Mary Magdalene Pancras, Camden, Middlesex between George Stuart Snowden, bachelor and Lydia Adele Dezombre, widow.
The address given on the Canada/US border crossing was where George Snowden was living in 1911. There is a death for Lydia A. Snowden Sep 1923 Barnet 3a 357 @ 58 which would give a birth year of 1865. Perhaps Lydia is mother to Felix.
Debbie
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I found a family tree at the freepages that includes Ethel Gertrude Ostler. It has her husband listed as Philip Humber and indicates they were married in 1905. There is an Ethel Gertrude Humber who died in Victoria on 28 Apr 1943 at the age of 58. There is some incorrect information listed for Ethel in that tree so maybe that Philip was a second husband. There is a death for a Philip Humber in Victoria on 16 Mar 1941. He was 59.
Perhaps another look-up is required to see if that Ethel Humber is the correct person. No need to start a new thread - just go to your first post in this thread and click on "modify" and add "BC look-up" in the subject line.
If that Philip does turn out to be a second husband then it would appear they married before 1915 as Philip's attestation papers for WWI are dated that year and his next of kin is listed as Mrs. E.G. Humber. I can't find a marriage for them though. Here's a link:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/08dh/
Jacquie
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I can look up the death registrations Jacquie found.
What are Ethel's parents' names? Just so I can do a quick check to see if it is a match before printing it out.
Regards,
Lynwen
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I found a family tree at the freepages that includes Ethel Gertrude Ostler. It has her husband listed as Philip Humber and indicates they were married in 1905. There is an Ethel Gertrude Humber who died in Victoria on 28 Apr 1943 at the age of 58. There is some incorrect information listed for Ethel in that tree so maybe that Philip was a second husband. There is a death for a Philip Humber in Victoria on 16 Mar 1941. He was 5
Jacquie
Thats a bother--more hunting now then!! Where are the 'free pages' that you found the tree Jacquie?
LemonMallie--Ethel's parents were--
Charles Henry IV Ostler & Cordelia Copperwheat
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http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~haslatter/history/bowdens/bk/f232.htm
Probably the site Jacquie is referring to.
There are 6 trees on Ancestry that include Ethel Gertrude Ostler with your parentage and 1884 Essex place of birth. 1 has her marrying Felix and dying April 1943 in Home, Indiana, Pennsylvania, US. 2 have her marrying Phillip Humber and dying in Mayfair Nursing Home, or Mayfair, Middlesex England. The others have no husband and just the April 1943 date of death.
Debbie
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That link that Debbie provided was the tree I was referring to. My questioning their information stemmed from the fact they have her dying in England and buried in BC.
Jacquie
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I have emailed the owner of that tree , offered to send him a copy of the Ostler/Dezombre marriage and also asked if he now has any more info regarding Ethel Ostler. poli
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While you're waiting for more definite information on Ethel Gertrude I found some information on Maria Cordelia.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/08e0/
Most likely arrival with husband and children on the "Canada" arriving June 20, 1908 from Liverpool to Montreal.
The notation of going to sister looks like Jones at first glance but perhaps Ames?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/08e1/
Pg 1 of the 1911 census where she is transcribed as Queenie and shown as being born Ontario
http://www.rootschat.com/links/08e2/
Pg 2 of the 1911 census - these 2 children were actually born in Ontario
There is a birth record for Rosena Blance Finch d/o Mariah Ostler and Frederick Finch (Painter) for Jan 11, 1909 at 331 Christie St. Toronto. It also shows that Frederick and Maria were married Sept 9, 1899 Cambridge England.
There is a death for Horace Finch b. England who died at Christie St. Toronto August 21, 1908 at 15 months from Cholera Infantum. This is probably Horace Leonard b. Sep 1907 Cambridge 3b 419 and their son born in 1910 was also given Leonard as a name. His birth is not protected under privacy laws but would have to be accessed via microfilm as ancestry only carries Ontario births up until 1909.
Maria Finch d/o Charles Ostler d. Feb 19, 1928 at Toronto aged 47 years. Had been in Canada 20 years. born England. Frederick C. Finch informant living at 244 Earlscourt Avenue Toronto. Died of septicemia, cardiac failure preceeded by operation for varicose veins.
Debbie
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Sorry to enter late...back to the marriage cert image... Is it perhaps Geophel ? ( although last letter looks more like an "f") Also could be Geo "Phis" as this is a common French name...
I am pretty sure the occupation says lawmaker, though...J.J.
F.Y.I there were some entries on the IGI back to 17th century for De Zombre, De Sombre and the joint versions of the surnames in Kent & french huguenot area of London ( other versions of the name Dezomnber, Desombre, de Sombere)
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Many thanks for the latest info from you all. i think the links/1911 census are really good, the idea of a split view is very helpful.
J.J Lacemaker --doh :-[
Lawmaker sounds pretty impressive--if indeed that is what it reads then i have to find out what that is about..
I had promised myself a full day of housework tomorrow, but then in the light of all the stuff i can follow up here---perhaps not ;D
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My interpretation for occupation for Charles' father is lacemaker. Although you usually think of it as a female/child labour cottage industry it did become mechanized
http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/work/england/nottingham/article_2.shtml
Debbie
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http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/passenger/index-e.html
You can search the above site (by name of ship) to find Leonard Ostler 33 and wife Jane 24 and daughter Thelma 1 1/2 yrs arriving in Canada 29 Nov 1915 on the Corsican sailing from Liverpool to Saint John NB. The record indicates that Leonard had arrived in Canada 1910.
There is a sailing into the UK on the Corsican arriving Liverpool from Montreal 31 Aug 1915 with Jane Ostler 23, Thelma infant and Samuel(?) Ostler 33, painter.
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/index-e.html
Leonard signed up for service in the CEF as did his brother Herbert Arthur and Herbert's sons Herbert Daniel, Robert Thomas and Frederick Victor.
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/m/i/Bridget-A-Smith/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0016.html
This site follows the family forward in time. They have Leonard's wife dying in 1988 but if you look on the BC vital statistics site they have it listed as 1 Jan 1986 at Victoria.
Debbie
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http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e144/e003578269.jpg
Herbert Ostler (38) and wife Caroline(33) arrived on the Ausonia 26 May 1912 which sailed from Southampton to Quebec.
Children Herbert (16), Frank (13), Robert (11), ? Male (7) Most likely Frederick Victor, Ellen?(3), Edith 8/12 mos
Marriage record for Herbert Daniel, resident of 351 Bartlett Ave. Toronto, b. Norwich, 24, Baptist,clerk and
Alice Myrtle Jones, 19 on 23 March 1921 Toronto. One witness was Florence Ames of 72 Ferries Ave. Toronto
Marriage record for Robert Thomas, 20, b. Norwich, electric appliance worker, resident 351 Bartlett Ave., Toronto, R.C. and Theresa Howarth, 20 on 3 March 1921 Toronto. Witness Edith E. Ames of Toronto.
http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~maryc/tor1925p18.htm
Fred V Ostler and an unreadable Ostler were witnesses to marriage of Harry Jarvis to Eleanor Boustead in 1925.
You can use http://pagesofthepast.ca/
to folllow the families in toronto
Debbie
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Online ancestry trees have the following information for Herbert Arthur Ostler.
B. 14 Feb 1875 Norwich
M. 21 June 1896 Norwich to Caroline Elizabeth Baldwin who died 17 Aug 1956 Toronto
M. 22 Oct 1966 Toronto to Florence Allard b. 1888 and d. 16 Aug 1984 Toronto
D. 5 Feb 1973 toronto
Debbie
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Fred and Edith Armes and family travelled on the Dominion from Liverpool to Quebec arriving 9 June 1907.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/08e3/
Family in 1911
Ethel F. Armes had married 23 Nov 1909 at age 19, working as an operator, living at 333 Bartlett St. Toronto to Francis Pidgeon, 21, a teamster.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/08e4/
Her family in 1911 - husband now using Arthur
Fredrick George Armes signed up for the CEF March 16, 1916 and died in the Base Hospital at 465 Gerard St. Toronto on Jan 15, 1917 from pneumonia.
Edith Armes, b. Norwich, 20, married Charles Stanley Wilson, 21, 27 Nov 1912. Witnesses were Arthur F. Pidgeon and Elsie M. Armes
William Henry White, 24, married Gertrude Dorothy Armes 21, b. England, on 20 September 1918 at Toronto
Herbert Francis Armes 22, b. England, steamfitter married Irene Margaret McNichol, 19 March 1 1924 at Toronto. wit: Fred J. Armes
Debbie
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For J.J.
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Thanks...It doesn't do much more for the image to have enlarged it...I still see lawmaker, but the post with the link to male lacemakers does make sense and here is a link to the lacemakers of Calais. This would tie in with the family having come from France sometime after the birth of Felix
http://www.angelfire.com/al/aslc/lacemake.html
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One of the Lacemakers who were helped on to Australia was a "de Sombre"
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1901 British census in London working as a parlourmaid in the home of Mary L. Kitson is
Lydia A. Dezombie, 36, widow, b. Calais France FS (does this mean French subject?)
RG13 19 130 11
Debbie
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I picked up the two death registrations today - it is your Ethel and her husband Philip. If you can send me a PM with your email, I will send you the scans.
The informant on Ethel's reg was her daughter Lydia. There is a marriage entry on the BC Vital Events index for Lydia Cordelia Humber to Harry Smith in Victoria in 1927. Lydia died in Victoria in 1980, aged 73yrs. Sorry, I didn't have time to look this up at the library today but if you want the regs, I can pick them up next time I am there. Lydia's death reg will list her place of birth which might help place the family and Ethel's marriage.
Regards,
Lynwen
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So know the question is what happened to Felix and when did Ethel and Philip marry. Gotta love the twists and turns in genealogy.
Jacquie
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Lynwen or poli, what were the names of Philip Humber's parents on the death registration? JJ and I were wondering whether the family may have changed their surname to Humber.
From taking a closer look at the name of Felix's father on the marriage banns form, I'm wondering whether it says Geo phil as an abbreviation of George Philip or could the phi be a bad abbreviation for Felix?
Just throwing out a theory and seeing if it goes anywhere.
Jacquie
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Ethel was the informant on Philip's death registration and listed his father as Felix Humber, born England, mother not known. His birthdate is listed as 7 Feb 1882 in London, England and he was in Canada for 30yrs, in the province & city for 29yrs. That gives an emigration date of 1911. Just throwing in some more details as the Felix link seems a bit coincidental......
As for Ethel, her daughter listed the emigration details as 33 yrs for all three giving an arrival date of 1910.
I think you might be on to something because the daughter's name of Lydia Cordelia E on the BC records matches the birth Carole found.
Damn, you guys are good!
Lynwen
ps. I'll try and get back to the library tomorrow to pick up Lydia's registrations.
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I have emailed the owner of that tree , offered to send him a copy of the Ostler/Dezombre marriage and also asked if he now has any more info regarding Ethel Ostler. poli
Have had a reply--he said that the info he was given was that Felix changed his name to Humber.--he was passing my query on to the originator of his info and said that they may like to get in touch with me themselves. i'll wait and see.
Meanwhile--i have printed off all the recent findings you have all found and will start to work my way through them. many thanks, everyone on this board is incredibly helpful. poli
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http://www.archivespasdecalais.fr/Archives-du-Pas-de-Calais
3 E 403
Saint-Pierre-lès-Calais
tables décennales
(1873-1882)
has an entry for Desombre, F?x Ch Simon, 8 Feb 1882 (this could be the date of registration for a child born the previous day.
There's also in the marriages:
Desombre, Joseph ?et?
Rosey, Lydia Adele
(18 April 1881)
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Jorose, i clicked on to this site and was 'lost' i'm afraid, my French is limited--very limited --5or 6 words only. i looked to see if it was possible to get an English translation but couldn't find one. :-[ poli
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Usually you can set an "always translate" option from your toolbar.
Excellent work Jorose for finding this site. An important contribution for solving this mystery and it probably took you awhile to find the proper entries.
As to the name change from Desombre to Humber. Was he just trying to sound more Canadian or is this a "dit" name as found in Quebec. For eg. earching for the surname Lachapelle you end up looking at Jannot, Langlois or a few other surnames depending on which line you extend from.
Debbie
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Thanks for the info, Lynwen...The name was also known to be German or Dutch so that might have been a reason for the name change....
Perhaps they changed the surname out of sheer frustration ;D as:
I am pretty sure this is the family on the 1911* as December, ( but looks to be Disomber ) forename Charles....a very hurried entry with mistakes and Lydia is same age as mother, but think it was just the person behind the pencil ( note Charles' birthdate is down as "lodger"
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census11/SplitView.jsp?id=78386
*noted address of 300 block Christie Street , as well as 1910 yr of immigration. I also looked for a freebmd December/ L*dia marriage no groom forename...and found none, also no L*dia births.
Nice find, jorose...
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Hi polidor,
Basically, tables décennales are ten-year indexes of births, marriages, and deaths. They are usually separated by commune and then into some sort of alphabetical order. The situation for cities is often a bit complex; "Saint-Pierre-lès-Calais" refers to what was originally a separate place and is these days apparently the south/south-east part of Calais (the "newer" part as opposed to the old city). It looks like they might have been officially joined sometime in the 1880s as the records for Saint Pierre seem to peter out around 1885.
They've only put up the indexes and not the original records. So the only information available is the name and date - "8th Feb 1882" would be when the birth was registered, quite likely the morning after his birth on the 7th Feb. Names are often abbreviated in the indexes and I'm assuming that the birth is supposed to read "Desombre, Felix Charles Simon"
The main records on that site:
Tables décennales de l'état civil (ten-year indexes of civil registration)
Recensements de population (censuses; not name-indexed so you could have a go but might be a long slog)
Recrutement militaire (military records; I don't have any experience with these records)
Incidentally he might be in Chelsea in 1901?
http://www.1901censusonline.com/ shows a 20 year old "Gelise Dezambre", and as his mother appears to have been in London by this time I'd expect him to be around somewhere around too.
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Usually you can set an "always translate" option from your toolbar.
Debbie
Googled for a translation help and managed to get the site in English BUT before you can start searching there is a box across the main page asking you to register and state where you are from--wrote United Kingdom and up came a message via google that i was making 'an illegal entry'--cheeky monkeys. Couldn't get any further with it. Damn. poli :(
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There is an option to "click" on your country rather than typing it in.
If you're using ancestry the entry that Jorose is referring to is transcribed as
Gelise Deg Amlie RG13 75 54 16
Debbie
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Yes, I had some problem with that part of the site, too - I just told them I was from a randomly chosen department in France. ;)
Also found:
Lydia Adele Rosey, b. Saint-Pierre-lès-Calais , 29 Mar 1864
Saint-Pierre was absorbed into Calais in 1885
http://www.geneanet.org/ - if you search for Rosey in Calais you will find someone researching Lydia's family (this site is free to join). They seem to have descendants through one of her brothers, but no info on Lydia past her birth, so would probably be interested in hearing from you (particularly if the marriage in London in 1903 confirms Lydia's maiden name/father's name)
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They'll be thrilled to have all this information you have all dug up! What a fabulous job. This may be Lydia's death as Snowden:
Lydia A Snowden died age 58 Barnet district / Sept. Q. 1923 / vol.3a p.357
~~OOOps sorry, Debbie aleady found that earlier...I forget that you can find everything on a person without using the bmd....
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As to the name change from Desombre to Humber. Was he just trying to sound more Canadian or is this a "dit" name as found in Quebec. For eg. earching for the surname Lachapelle you end up looking at Jannot, Langlois or a few other surnames depending on which line you extend from.
Debbie
If name changes happen that way then it's amazing that anyone ever finds who they are looking for!!
Philip could be a derivation of Felix i suppose but Humber instead of Dezombre?
Today i have copied and pasted all the information that has been found with everyone's help. I shall work my way through it.
I printed off all the Attestation papers--the men all seem to be on the short side and a few appear to sport tattoos!
You have given me a great deal to work with and i am extremely grateful for your time and interest.
I am gradually going back to all the web sites that you have given me here and i will also check out some more of the Ostler trees that are around.
Just thought i'd let you know what i was doing :) poli
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Hi I read this with interest as Felix Desombre was my grandfather. He changed his name by deed pole apparently due to anti french Canadian discrimination in BC in those days. I think my father Frank Philip Humber was actually the only child born a Humber rather than a Dezombre! This seems an old thread if I read the Canadian style date correctly is there any updates
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Hello David,
yes you are right , it is an old thread brought back to my attention again by your reply.
I began the search originally by way of the Copperwheat surname. Ethel Gertrude [who married Felix Dezombre/Philip Humber] was the daughter of Charles Henry 1V Ostler and Cordelia Copperwheat--this you probably know.
Copperwheat was the surname of my own Grandmother and while researching the name, came across Charles and Cordelia's 12 children and was keen to find out more about them.
I found also that a marriage of Frank P Humber took place in Hendon Middx [is this your father?]
I too, married in Hendon, small world.!!! poli :)
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yes reception in north harrow in the wealdstone arms a pub that is now gone! d
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Wow! I read this thread with great interest as Felix Desombre is my 2nd Great Grandfather through Lydia Desombre/Humber. I was especially fascinated with David's comment in regards to the name change as I have grown up with a different tale as to why Felix chose to change his name. I was actually visiting my Grandmother over the weekend and decided to have her recount the tale and from what she has been told by her mother, Lydia, Felix came back from WW1 feeling disenfranchised by the way the French conducted themselves during the War and decided to change his name.
After some discussion with my family along with a different perspective in regards to the change, we are now wondering if there is a bit of truth from both tales for his decision on the name change.
David, I am also curious to know if you happen to have a copy of his change of name certificate?
Best regards,
Sean
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sorry no have not been able to find anything about the name change - my understanding was that the name change must have been 1918 or 1919 if my father was correct that he was the only one born a Humber. Not sure what the procedure in BC was to change names or how you might trace it - would guess there should have been some public announcement in a news paper or something. Probably you are right that there is an element of truth in both stories although I think the anti french element was quite strong in Victoria and it was a few years before he changed his name. Not sure the family communicated very well as my father told me Felix was called philip and was Belgium! We called our son Philip because we thought is was a family tradition! my father was a frank philip too so it was a surprise to find out he was a Felix and french. and as it says in the thread I assume the family originally came from Pas de Calais. Regards David
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Yes, I was under the impression it was around the same time as you mentioned. I know BC has a change of name registry now, but am unsure when it started. Fortunately, I do live in BC and will start doing some digging here to see what I can find. If I happen to be able to find a copy of it, would you be interested in having me send it along to you David?
Yes, it does seem there has been a lapse in the communication with the family. I have recently found an interest in my family tree and am learning a lot and finding it quite interesting hearing different stories from family members.
I think I had seen a census that may have shown his parents on it and yes, it seemed to indicate they were both from Calais. I will have to see if I can track that down again.
Cheers,
Sean