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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: Kylie B on Wednesday 07 April 10 10:41 BST (UK)
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Hi
I am trying to find out more about 2 brothers- Alexander and Adam KING.
Alexander KING was Advocate in Edinburgh between 1580-1617.
I do not know who his wife was, but so far am aware of 2 possible daughters- Margaret who I think married David Heirott a Goldsmith prior to 1595, and Janet/Jonet who appears to have been the second wife of James Mosman marrying in 1570- James was hung in 1573 after the seige of Edinburgh Castle as a supporter of Mary Queen of Scots.
David and Margaret Heriott had a large family- including: George, Helene, Janet/Jonet, Margaret, Marioun, Alexander, David, Issobell and another Margaret. Their son Alexander was also a Goldsmith, and moved to London to continue his trade. His will refers to siblings still back in Scotland, so I am not sure if he moved to London on his own, or with some family. I believe David Heirott may have been related to George Heriott- who founded Heriotts Hospital/school- but havnt confirmed any furhter details on David as yet.
Adam KING was Commissioner of Edinburgh at around the same time. I know nothing more about him, other than he appears to be Alexanders brother.
They are both listed in a couple of references from the Scottish Parliment of the time as being ' of Dreyden/Dreden'.
Does anyone know where Dreden is?? Is it Dresden in Germany??
And does anyone know anything more about this family?? Are they definately brothers? Who did they marry and who were their children? And anything else!!
Thanks so much- fingers crossed!!
Kylie B
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There is a Dryden Tower out beyond the bypass near Bilston and Roslin. The tower is a folly.
This map shows it as Drydune, I think - right hand side and zoom in to the max!
http://www.nls.uk/maps/joins/adair09.html
There are a number of streets with the name Dryden and all seem to be associated with the name Rosslin/Rosslyn so their location at Pilrig seems unlikey to be the place in the 17th century.
George Heriot had a brother Patrick, mentioned in his will, which was proved in 1623 and available from the ScotlandsPeople website. It is 18 pages long - pretty good value for a fiver! It apparently lists his nieces, nephews, half-brothers and sisters.
Alexander King's testmament & inventory from 1620 is only 1 page long, but it may help you with some names. He was an advocate of Drydane. Beware, though, the writing and language may be difficult to decipher.
Adam King also left a testament & inventory - 2 pages long. These documents may help with some relationships, but there is no guarantee.
Nell
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Thanks so much Nell
I will check these out!
So do you think Dryden is the place?
Kylie
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Yes, more than likely.
Nell
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Well you wernt kidding about the writing being difficult to decipher- good grief!!!
I bought both the testament for Alexander and Adame- and can barely make out anything on either one. So no real success with them help to confirm their relationship to each other, or give any more details or confirmation of their families...
One thing that they do appear to say is they both seem to refer to a brother- James King- advocate of Edinburgh.
So it seems there were 3 brothers- Alexander and James both advocates, and Adame a Commissioner.
Does anyone have any suggestions on where to go next trying to find out more about these brothers?? They seem to have held prominent roles in the community, yet I cant seem to find anything more on them- and cant read their testaments!!
Kylie B
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Two wills for a James King, advocate, listed on ScotlandsPeople: 1631 and 1648.
No much help if you are having difficulty reading the writing. :-\ These things do get easier with practice, although I have to admit that the Scottish ones of that date are really challenging.
Some suggestions.
Have a look at the catalogue of the National Archives of Scotland which can be searched here:
http://www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/
You cannot view any of the documents online, but sometimes the summary of the item's contents can provide you with some clues as to names, who else to look for and dates.
So for example, from this I gleaned the information that one James King, advocate, married Marion Hart. This marriage is shown on the IGI as 1608 and you should be able to find it on ScotlandsPeople too. Another James King advocate of Drydane married Janet Douglas - this is also on the IGI in 1603, image should be available on ScotlandsPeople. This couple seem to have been the parents of Margaret, Alexander and Euphemia. The former couple were parents of Agnes and Adam. Whether they are related, I don't know, but the names might indicate that they were using family names.
There was one item description which stood out:
"Discharge by Marie King daughter of deceased Alexander King advocate to James King advocate her brother"
This was dated 1613. So far I can't find anything to support this around the dates you are interested in.
Another website which may prove helpful is this one:
http://www.scotsfind.org
There are some free databases on there including trancripts from some Edinburgh records.
Nell
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Thanks Nell
I have checked out the NAS and found a few references-
There is one in 1601 dicharging property from MR Alexander King advocate of Drydane/Dryden to Mr John Nicholson of Lasswade for 100 pounds, and extract bond from 1596 with a witness cited as 'Mr Harry King, brother to Mr Alexander King advocate' and then from 1593/4- a discharge of property by Janet King, spouse to Alexander King advocate, to Nicholas Douglas and Lady Johnstone.
So now I seem to have a probable spouse for Alexander- Janet. And another possible brother, Harry, to go with Adame and James. ANd then the possible daughters- Janet (fits the mothers name?) and MArgaret.
And still no confirmation that this Alexander King advocate is definately the father of Margaret King who married David Heriott. Frustrating....
I will go back and try searching for the name Heriott and see if anything come sup in that to help. Otherwise- stuck again!!
Kylie B
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I know that this thread was initiated a long time ago, but was just wondering whether the original poster (Kylie?) managed to find anything else out about the Kings...?
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Here's a map I did centred on the area of the Dryden Estate around the middle of the 18th century.
It's about 6 miles south of Edinburgh. The site of Dryden House and part of the Bilston Burn is now buried by the spoil from a coal mine!
Alb
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Hi Boethius
No luck confirming which Alexander King was the father of Margaret and therefore the one I was looking for although found lots more references to members of the family, it seems there were 2 Alexander Kings around at the same time of a similar age..plus others!!
....thanks for the map Alb!
Kylie
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Thanks, Kylie, for the information. I'm sure that Alexander was the father of [his eldest son?] Alexander, and the father of James (named after his uncle?) and Adam King. There may have been others but these three were the best known: James King was counsel to Adam Bothwell, Bishop of Orkney; both Alexander and James were counsel to John Napier; and Adam was Professor at the University of Paris before becoming a commissioner and advocate.
I was more interested in the information you found out about their residence: Dryden (Dreden, Drydane etc). Did they actually own Dryden House or did they just own property near it (or on its estate) or sublet it from the Setons or Nicolsons? William Drummond of Hawthornden (the famous poet) was witness to the will of John Nicolson upon his death, I believe, and I was wondering how Nicolson acquired Dryden House, if it did belong to the Kings. I would love to know the link between King, Nicolson, Seton, Sinclair, and Drummond.
I was also interested in the testament that you found listing Adam's estate upon his death in 1620. I was aware that Adam left a substantial library, and that the infamous general Robert Munro of Contullich, for some reason ended up with it. What other things were on his will and who did he leave them to?
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Interesting map, Alb R. Thanks for posting it. I had wondered where exactly the house was. If your map is correct then the foundation outlines of the house are still visible on the edge of the woods on google maps (satellite).
The proximity to Hawthornden is interesting. I would think that such close neighbours would have been well known to each other. Which begs the question: did the Kings 'of Dryden' live in Dryden House?
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Hi there
I haven't looked at the Kings of Dryden for a while- here are the bits and pieces I found pertaining to Dryden itself:
Dryden was situated in the parish of Lasswade, in what is now Midlothian. It seems it was written variously in the records as Dryden, Driden, Dridene, Dridane, Drydane, Dreiddane and Draiden.
The earliest documented owners I have found mention of for Dryden were the Sinclair family, who owned the land until 21 May 1591, when John Sinclair gave a charter of Lasswade (including Dryden) to John Nicolson, advocate, father of Sir John Nicolson of Lasswade, Baronet. The original document for this transfer of property is held at the National Archives of Scotland, Ref: GD18/544
Sir George Lockhart of Lee and Carnwath bought the estate at Dryden circa 1681. He was apparently responsible for the rebuilding of Dryden House and it is this building which appears on maps until the 20th century.
SUTHERLAND, Robertson. Loanhead: The Development of a Scottish Burgh. Loanhead: MacDonald Publishers, 1974. [NLS Shelfmark: NE.10.b.6]
Page 20:
“…the lands of Lasswade were church property belonging originally to the Bishopric of St Andrews…[Loanhead] was held in the fifteenth century by a John de Carmur, from whom it passed ultimately into the possession of the Sinclairs of Dryden. That seemingly acquisitive family had been granted by King Robert the Bruce, two centuries earlier, “all our land in the Moor of Pentlande”, in exchange for “the tenth part of a knight’s service in battle and three suits yearly at the Sheriff’s court held at Edinburgh”, this under the Register of the Great Seal, 12th April 1316. It was in 1528 that Edward Sinclair of Dryden granted a burgess of Edinburgh [Robert Adamson] the right to win coal upon his property of Dryden and Loanhead…the Scottish Parliament to grant a charter to Sir John Nicolsone, to whom “the lands, coals and coal heughs of Loanhead” had passed from the Sinclairs of Dryden.”
Pages 146-7:
“…Dryden House, was built in the early eighteenth century by James Lockhart Wishart of Lee and Carnwath…There is little doubt that the house replaced another on the same attractive site, occupied, doubtless, by the earliest owners of whom we know, the Sinclairs of Roslin and Dryden…what remained of the fabric [of Dryden House] was finally demolished in 1938…”
There were a whole series of transactions in the 1590s (GD18 Clerk of Penicuik papers:
5 Aug 1591 John Sinclair younger spouse of Margaret Gifford pledged part of the lands of Lasswade, the lands of Dryden and ten acres of the lands of Pentland to cover a debt of 8000 merks plus a later sum of 600 merks to John Nicholson and advocate and his wife Elizabeth Henderson
22-23 Nov 1592 The debt increased to 1170 merks
12 Dec 1592 And another 300 merks
22 Dec 1593 John Sinclair the younger acknowledged his debt of 13, 860 merks to John Nicholson was due at Michaelmas failing payment of which John Nicholson could buy the lands for 7000 merks.
28 Mar 1594 A further 2500 merks added to the price.
2 Aug 1594 The lands of Lasswade pass to John Nicholson
8 Jun 1601 Alexander King sold ten acres of the lands of Pentland to John Nicolson of the Commissary of Edinburgh and his wife Elizabeth Henderson
29 Jun 1591 He rented the teinds of Dryden from the dean and chapter of Restalrig.
1591-1597 John Sinclair sold Lasswade and Dryden to John Nicholson but no mention of the ten acres of Pentland.
28 Nov 1601 Alexander King of Dryden sold John Nicholson ten acres of Pentland called Pitcaries or Paradys possibly Paradykes
So as far as I can tell, the King brothers owned land in Dryden, but I do not think they lived there....and don't think they owned Dryden House as there is no mention of the house in their documents that I have seen- more mentions of land and gardens....
According to an article in the Innes Review Vol 52 on Adam, his library was sold after his death for 2000 merks....perhaps the purchaser was your Robert Munro?
Hope these bits help-will also pass on anything else I come across as I look through things again!
Kylie
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Thanks for the info. It is strange, then, that he is described as Adam King of Dryden.
Yes, I'd appreciate any other information that you have on the Kings. Thanks.
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Hi Boethius
Well- given Alexander King was 'of Dryden' and his lands in the Dryden area were left to Adam and James, his brothers, on his death, I guess Adam is equally able to call himself 'of Dryden'. Interestingly, I think there were also other brothers- Harry and Clement, as well as a number of sisters- Marie for certain, possibly Margaret, Isobelle....but none of these are mentioned in Alexanders will and he seems to have died first. Also, Alexander appeared from documents to be married to a Margaret Swanston, but she must have pre-deceased him and they must not have had any children, surviving at least, as again neither wife nor children are mentioned in Alexanders will.
I have not come across any documents that indicate they lived in Dryden though...
What is your interest in the King family? How are you connected?? Do you have any information on Alexander, Adam and James?? I am still looking for any info to help me work out who is who and confirm my connection with the right Alexander!!
Kylie
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Yes, the father, Alexander, seems to have owned quite a bit of property. Perhaps you know this already, but he owned what is now erroneously called 'Mary King Close', the tourist attraction just off the Royal Mile in Edinburgh. It always was historically known as Alexander King Close, but for some reason (probably a locally-inspired conflation of two different urban legends) it became "Mary's".
Thanks for the information about the sisters. If you don't mind me asking, how did you find out the names of the sisters?
My interest, incidentally, is purely academic. Adam, James, Alexander and their aquaintences were all fairly significant people in their different ways. I know a bit about their vocational and intellectual background, but there are substantial gaps in my knowledge. Coming on here and reading your comments has been a help. I'm particularly (you probably think unusually) interested in the Dryden angle because of its proximity to Hawthornden. William Drummond, the famous poet, who lived there (and who entertained the likes of Ben Jonson there) had Adam King's work in his library. It would be great if a more personal, 'neighbourly', link could be made between the two men.
I'm afraid I can't help you with your own link to the Alexanders. The dates would differentiate both men - after the early 17th century most vocational references would surely be to James' and Adam's brother, not their father. I take it that it is a potential ancestral connection you have with him?
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Hi Boethius
According to burgh of Edinburgh records- there is an advocate and notary public by the name of Alexander King listed in documents from around 1565 through to 1782 when he is recorded as deceased. THis appears to be the man who owned Kings Close in Edingurgh that you mentioned.
From 1584 Mr Alexander King appears in the records. In 1588 there are documents in the records of Deeds for the Court of Sessions mentioning Mr Alexander King (heir of Alexander King) and his mother- Katherine Young (relict of Alexander King). They also make reference to James King, advocate and brother of Mr Alexander King, and Alexander's future spouse/spouse Margaret Swynton. Interestingly there is a birth record for an illegitimate daughter- Jonet King born 1634 born to Alexander King and Marion Swynton.....So did they actually not marry I wonder?? THey also mention as sister of Mr Alexander King- Isobel married to Robert Danielston.
However, in the 1580's-1590's there are also a number of documents appearing that record what must be another advocate Alexander King as his spouse is a Janet/Jonet King. These documents appear to confirm this particular Alexander was related to the King family of Barra, and therefore the family in feud with the Seton clan. This Alexander was murdered by the Setons in retribution for the murder by the King family of Alexander Seton.
There are these references that appear to tie to the first Alexander King - advocate:
2 Jul 1596: Extract bond and judicial ratification by dame Jean Hammiltoun,
lady Ardkinglas, of contract of alienation; Witnesses: Mr John Archibald,
Walter Lyndesay, servitors to the laird of Glenurquhay, John Oiswald of
Saltcottis, Mr Harry King, brother to Mr Alexander King, advocate,
Colin Campbell and John Younge. Reg. commissary books of Edinburgh,
2 July 1596.
1601- There is also a sasine involving the teinds (tithes) of Monktonhall and which were assigned
to James King, brother german to Mr Alexander King of Drydane by Thomas Otterburn made at
Edinburgh 3 April 1601. The sasine which follows records James King as an advocate (Edinburgh
Sasines – RS24/1/162 and 163)
1611: Discharges, legal and miscellaneous papers: (4) 24 Sept. 1611. Inventory of
writs, 1409-1537, delivered to William, earl of Menteith, by Mr Henry King,
advocate. GD220/6/1808
2 July 1612 - involved James King, advocate acting for Euphemia King, relict of
Quintgern (Kentigern) Fairlie. It referred to a Deed in the Books of Council and Session
(i.e. Register of Deeds) recorded 5 May 1612.- B22/1/47
20 Feb 1613: Discharge by Marie King daughter of deceased Alexander King
advocate to MR James King advocate her brother: Suddenly a MR James King...so is this perhaps a son of the other Alexander King (married to Janet King) rather than brother to Mr Alexander King????? ???
1618- Mr Alexander King of Drydane will, who died intestate on the 20 February 1618. His
executor was his brother, James King, advocate. His estate was to be divided in two parts
which indicates that he did not have a surviving wife or children (CC8/8/50/601 recorded
22 March 1620)
So as best I can tell- there were 2 Alexander King's around in the 1880's-90's- one married to Margaret Swynton and one married to Janet King. Perhaps they were cousins? There are also 2 James King's- both advocates in the 1610-1630's- one titled with Mr. One is married to Janet Douglas, the other is married to a Marion Hart....I think the untitled James King advocate belongs to Mr Alexander King (and therefore is brother to Adam and Harry). Possiby the titled Mr James King is linked to the Barra Kings, and is brother to Marie, and perhaps also Clement and Margaret??
There is Clement King around at this time- Dr of Medicine. He is mentioned in documents that clearly identify him as the brother of Margaret King- wife of David Herriot (goldsmith) and daughter of Alexander King advocate....but which one! But I cannot find any definitive link between him and one of the 2 Alexanders....
Found mention in a reference about Adam King (Scottish Notes and Queries 1906) stating his library was sold for 2000 merks to Robert Munro of Cantullich.
Not sure if any of that makes sense or helps your interest?
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Wow, so much information! Must have taken some time to get all that together. I'll read over it and let you know how I get on.
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is anyone out there still looking into the alexander kings who were edinburgh advocates? if so i can post quite a bit of information i have found. the reason i am interested in them is that i am researhing george heriot goldsmith to king james vi and georges half brother david was married to the daughter of one of the alexander kings
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Ohh yes please wolfequebec- i am researching the same people!! Love to see what you have found -pm me if you like if its easier and i will give you my email
Kylie
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Sorry I am new to rootschat. What does "pm"me mean, and how do I do it?
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Hi Wolfequebec , welcome to RC
Personal Messages -
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
ev
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Hi wolfequebec click on my name and then message me- it means personal message!!
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Hi wolfequebec click on my name and then message me- it means personal message!!
kylie he has to post 3 times before he can send you a personal message
wolfequebec just say hi