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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Wicklow => Topic started by: eyshame on Saturday 10 April 10 20:35 BST (UK)
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Hi, is anyone researching these names please? My great grand father was Thomas Kavanagh sone of John and Catherine nee Carton, born Annamoe 1865 with brother Lawrence born 1866 and later a brother John but no idea where he was born as yet.
John and Catherine came to England but don't know when and Thomas married in Co Durham in 1894 but, after over 10 years, i have never been able to find his death anywhere.
I would so appreciate hearing from anyone researching these nams or anyone who knows anything of these names and might be related - that would be great. Thanks E.
Moderator Note : Placename corrected in subject - Brockagh not Brockage
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You already have a long thread on Kavanagh family here-
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,425813.0.html
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thanks but being new i didn't know ho to mege them and i was adding a new name too.
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not sure what Wicklow details you are looking for, but Annamoe is located on the road between Laragh and Roundwood and appears to be in the Civil parish of Derrylossary and the RC parish of Glendalough. You dont mention the familiy religion but Catholic records for this parish survive back to about 1807 with several gaps around the late 1830s, Church of Ireland for Derrylossary have not survived. The RC records are available on microfilm in the National Library. The Irish Family History Foundation (www.irish-roots.ie) also have many RC baptism transcripts for Co. Wicklow.
I also dont see any promising marriage matches for the marriage of John & Catherine on the Irish Civil Index (http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#c=1408347;p=2;t=searchable), so it's possible they married before 1864.
Details for both Thomas and Lawrence are on the IGI, and both include references to help locate civil details for them. The IGI does not show a birth for John using a parent search in Ireland or England, but this does not include all births. The Registration district for the Annamoe area is Rathdrum and there are a few John Kavanagh births in that district in the 1860s, but the only way to confirm if any of these if part of the family would be to order birth certs for them
Shane
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Thanks Shane for the information. it took me ages to find out how to reply to you. Yes the family were Catholics. I have the birth cert for Thomas born 9.4.1865 and i have his marriage cert for April 1894 in Lanchester Co Durham England but i have never ever been able to find a death cert for him anywhere. His birth cert gave me the Carton info etc and i had hoped to find out more about them too. I am thinking Lawrence must have died because on the 1881 census i find them living in Co Durham with a John born in 1870 but not in Ferry Hill as it says. This family is a mystery and has Thomas born in Wrexham in North Wales but i now find he wasn't. I was told not to rely on the info on the census records for place of birth and that seems to be true to date. I had hoped to find John's birth but that too is proving hard if not impossible like Thomas's death. Thomas's wife, Margaret McCoy re-married in 1902 to Patrick Mc Intryre and i assumed Thomas was dead making him die around 1898-1902 but no death is listed for him. I am new to all of this really but lost and would love to find Thomas before i die too - is that daft? thanks again for all your help and your info was very intersting as i didn't know where Annimoe was. E.
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not sure If youve seen the following Griffith's record, but it shows a Ralph Carton in the village of Laragh which is in the townland of Brockagh - so possibly family to Catherine ? He is one on just 5 Carton listings in the county. The record is dated 1854.
Name : Ralph Carton
Landlord : William Mahon
County : Wicklow
Barony : Ballinacor, North
Union : Rathdrum
Parish : Derrylossary
Townland : Brockagh
Place Name : Village of Laragh
see - Carton, Wicklow (http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=doNameSearch&Submit.x=53&Submit.y=15&Submit=Submit&familyname=carton&firstname=&baronyname=&countyname=WICKLOW&unionname=&parishname=)
p.s. There are also several Kavanagh listings on the same page.
Shane
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Thanks Shane. i have never seen one of those befoe so i really don't understand it. How would i find out if that Ralf Carton or indeed any of the Kavanagh's listed there were mine? I hope i am not being a pest and if you are busy that's ok. Thanks for all your help.
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Griffiths valuation is a land taxation survey-so only shows basic details of heads of household and the property they lease or own. To follow up the details you would need to research church records, but given the small number of Carton households shown on the survey and the fact that the town/townland location matches up, it seems quite likely the Ralph was Catherine's family... possibly even her father. The Kavanghs will be a little more difficult to follow up as it's quite a common surname (I have Kavangh ancestors also - but in North Co. Dublin).
If you google Griffith's Valuation you will see more details on the survey.
Hopefully the IFHF website mentioned earlier will add RC marriages to their system at some stage, which would allow you to search for the Kavanagh/Carton marriage and hopefully discover further details on them.
Shane
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When you say North Dublin do you mean Queens? i did look at a John and Catherine there too just in case.
What is IFHF?
Lawrence looks a possible given that John and Catherine named a son Lawrence but so does John. How would i look for a death of Lawrence Kavanagh born 1866 and dying before 1871, maybe in Ireland? I ask becuase if this is the right family there is no Lawrence listed on the 1871 census where Thomas is said to have been born in Wrexham so i am guessing Lawrence died. why did Irish families not say exactly where in Ireland they were born and the area of the children's birth too?
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IFHF stands for the Irish Family History Foundation, and they run a pay-per-view website that holds parish records for some parts of Ireland.
Full Civil registration started in 1864, so from this date there are birth, marriage, and death certs. See the rootschat topic 2 Minute Introduction to Irish Records (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442233.0.html) for details on searching the index, ordering certs and the details they contain.
Shane
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Thanks Shane, since i guess they were married before 1864 how would i find out when and where they did marry?
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Thanks Shane, since i guess they were married before 1864 how would i find out when and where they did marry?
Assuming that they married in the same Laragh/Brockagh area, then the only option at the moment is to look at the microfilms records for the parish in the National Library in Dublin... other than that your best hope is probably to keep an eye out on the IFHF pay-website (www.irish-roots.ie) to see if they add the RC marriage records I mentioned earlier. Also keep an eye on the Wicklow section of rootschat.. I sure any news of new online records will be mentioned here
Shane
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OK, thanks again Shane. I have looked at the Irish Family Search but they have nothing listed for anyone and i know Thomas was born there bu he isn't listed. nothaving any luck again but will keep looking as i have for the last 10 years. thanks E.
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I had a look through the IFHF index for Carton births (much easier to search rarer surnames) and found a few that match father's name of Ralph, that might be of interest.
Glendalough RC Parish
Bridget Carton 1850
Cecilia Carton 1840
Ellenor Carton 1853
RC parish Rathdrum
Catherine Carten 1829
Rathdrum town is about 11km south of Laragh.
Shane
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Thanks fo doing that Shane, i appreciate it.
I think that would make Catherine in her 30's when she married, isn't that a bit old if her first child, Thomas, wasn't born until 1865, she would be 36? if there is only one Catherine listed it is a good bet that it must be her, do you agree?
Thanks again
E.
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It's definitely worth keeping a note of as a possible match, but I just did a search for baptisms of a Catherine Carton with father's name of Ralph based on the name listed on Griffiths.... there could have been other Carton families in the area when Catherine was born, or her father could have already been deceased by the time of Griffiths valuation (1850s). Hopefully a marriage record will show up at some stage which may show her fathers name and allow a better search for her baptism.
I'd say given the very small number of Carton families listed in Co. Wicklow that Ralph Carton on Griffiths is connected - but it's possible he is a descendant of the Ralph Carton on the possible Baptism record.
Shane
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Thanks, yes i will keep a note of it and hope the marriage things come soon.
When I get confirmation of where they came from i hope to get over there and see for myself. I have been to Dublin many times whe young and loved it and hope t return one day too.
I am only going off a birth cert and hope ahve the right one.
E.
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hello there, I have a Catherine carton in my tree father Ralph who went to England husband was John Carroll there could be a connection here. But some dates a bit out. They Married in Whitehaven father Ralph was a miner from that area and died in Brockagh . I think this could well be worth a follow up , await your reply. By the way i live in New Zealand my Catherine and John Carroll came to New Zealand.
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Thanks for your post. My Catherine Carton married a John Kavanagh but i am not sure when exactly as i don't have a marriage cert for them. I only know of Catherine Carton and John Kavanagh as they were the parents of my great grandfather Thomas Kavanagh born 1865 in Brockage Wicklow. I have his birth cert.
Would love to find out about them thouh and i hope there is a connection.
Regards
E.
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the story has it from family way back that our Catherine Carton had a child and she left him behind in ireland but this has never been proved . But she did marry 1868 I think as they eloped to England her and John Carroll he was a miner also....and when they came to new Zealand later she had money not him ..... so where did the money come from I wonder. The mystery continues. Brad.
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Hi,
I have two different Carten girls that go back to Wicklow. I think they may be sisters, but can't prove it yet. I've never done research in Ireland, so I'm not sure how it matches up.
First is Elizabeth Carten, born around 1842 in Arklow, county Wicklow according to the 1911 England Census and Wicklow, starts with a C, (Clurick?, Church) but I can't read the writing in the 1881 England census.
Elizabeth married John Murphy sometime around 1860-65. John Murphy was born around 1845 in County Wexford. They had a son Patrick Murphy on 21 Oct in 1865 in Annamoe, Wicklow, Ireland. They were in Walton, Lancashire, England by 1868. John Murphy was a miner. They settled in Durham county. Elizabeth was living with her daughter Elizabeth Mullen in Wallsend, Northumberland, England by 1911.
The second is Alice Carten, born around 1851. She married Michael McGuire, born around 1835. Their oldest two boys were Ralph, born 1864 in Annamoe and John, born 1866 in Annamoe. They were in Cumberland, England by 1870 and settled in Millom.
I'd like to know if Elizabeth & Alice were sisters. I'd also like to know if they were the daughters of Ralph...since Alice named her oldest son Ralph, I wonder if there's a connection.
Hope this helps someone out there. Thanks.
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I found Alice Carten McGuire in the 1911 England census. She lists her place of birth as Seven Churches, Wicklow. I went back to Elizabeth's 1881 census entry and can see now that she was also born in Seven Churches.
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Hi E. Clubhistorian, Brad, shanew147 etc, I have been following this with great interest, hope you make the breakthrough soon E.
Just for your information Seven Churches and Glendalough are the one and same place.
Regards
John G.
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The surviving records for RC Parish of Glendalough (Civil Parish Derrylossary)
Earliest records: Births Jun 1807. Marriage Jan 1808.
Missing dates: Birth Jan 1838 to Aug 1839. Marriage Jun 1838 to May 1840
Cheers John G.
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Hi There
I am following this with great interest. I have been researching the name Carton/Carten/McCarten etc for years.
I have found Alice Carten born 1850 in County Down, her father was David Carten.
I also have an Alice Carten and Michael McGuire had a son called Ralph McGuire. Ralph was born in County Wicklow, 1864. (This is of great interest to me). From what I can see Alice and Michael only had one child in Ireland.
I have a Michael McGuire and Anna Carten having a child in County Wicklow. He was named John McGuire, born 1866.
I hope this helps. Cheers
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I found the births of John McGuire and Ralph McGuire on the familysearch.org website. Both are listed as born in Annamoe, Wicklow, Ireland. Both have Michael McGuire and Alice Carton listed as parents.
Ralph's birth is listed as 19 MAY 1864; John's is listed as 18 JUN 1866.
The source for John is listed as film #0101126 - "Quarterly returns of births in Ireland, 1864-1955, with index to births, 1864-1921"; source for Ralph is film #0101086 - "Quarterly returns of births in Ireland, 1864-1955, with index to births, 1864-1921 Ireland. General Register Office".
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Awesome thanks Clubhistorian!
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Hope it's useful to you. Do you have much information on the Carten's? I'd love to know the parents of Alice and Elizabeth...I'd also like to know if Alice and Elizabeth were sisters.
Thanks!
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I have an Eliza or Elizabeth Carton born about 1843, County Wicklow, Parents are Ralph Carton and Mary (Possibly nee Warren, Niel or Harmen).
I have Alice Carten, daughter fo David Carten, born 1850 in County Down.
I also have a Catherine Carton who had a daughter and named her Alice. Catherine names her father as Ralph Carton of County Wicklow, on her marriage licence but we have not yet found her birth.
To add to the confusion I think there are two Catherine Carton's born about the same time, in County Wicklow. Are they cousin's?
I cannot put your Alice and Elizabeth together, sorry. Very Interesting that Alice Carten had a son called Ralph! :)
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Hi everyone!
I, too, have an interest in the Carton family of Co Wicklow. My g'g'grandfather Patrick Courtney married Mary Carton in Ashford Co Wicklow in 1868. Mary listed her father as Ralph. Their second son John was born in Brockagh, Co Wicklow in 1871 which is where Ralph Carton lived.
I have bapt records from www.rootsireland.ie for Cecilia Carton 1840; Eliza 1843 both with parents Ralph Carton & Mary Warren. There is also a Bridget Carton 1850 with parents Ralph Carton & Mary Fegan, tho' one of the sponsors is also Mary Fegan. Also in 1853 Ellenor Carton has parents Ralph Carton & Mary Neil.
Cecilia, Bridget & Ellenor were all bapt in Glendalough while Eliza in Arklow. I too, am unable to find any bapt or birth records for either Catherine or Mary.
There is a bapt record for Catherine Carten in Co Wicklow 1829, parents Ralph Carten & Catherine Gees, but I don't think it's the same Ralph as it's the Ralph Carton I'm interested in and he was born approx 1812 according to his death cert. Ralph Caten and Catherine Gees also had a son John, bapt 1831 and Ralph & Catherine married in 1826.If anyone has any info on Mary Born approx 1841 or Catherine born approx 1852 I would be very grateful.
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So then, to add a new dimention to this Carton Quest, does anyone know who the father of Ralph Carton born about 1812 was and where was Ralph born?
I have the years bet 1812 - 1815 as well but I cannot find a place.
Cheers
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From www.rootsireland.ie I purchased a marriage record for Ralph Carton. This record shows he married Mary Harman in Glendalough on 31 Aug 1831. Unfortunately it does not show either of their parents names and the only other information it contains are the names of the witnesses, John Fleming and Anne Doyle.
This is not a copy of the original record and I was wondering if anyone actually has a copy or has seen the actual record or perhaps has any other record with both parents names recorded.. I have this idea in mind that perhaps Mary's name was transcribed incorrectly from Warren to Harman seeing as both Cecilia and Eliza's bapt records have Mary Warren as their mother. Just an idea!
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This record shows he married Mary Harman in Glendalough on 31 Aug 1831. Unfortunately it does not show either of their parents names and the only other information it contains are the names of the witnesses, John Fleming and Anne Doyle.
This is not a copy of the original record and I was wondering if anyone actually has a copy or has seen the actual record or perhaps has any other record with both parents names recorded..
Early parish marriage records like this dont usually include any more details than those you have mentioned.
e.g. three marriages from www.irishgenealogy.ie on the same date in various parts of Ireland - one Church of Ireland , two RC : marriages 31/Aug/1831 (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/search.jsp?namefm=&namel=&exact=&name2=&location=&dd=31&mm=08&yy=1831&diocese=&parish=&type=M¢ury=&decade=&sort=&pageSize=100&ddB=&mmB=&yyB=&ddM=&mmM=&yyM=&ddD=&mmD=&yyD=&locationB=&locationM=&locationD=&member0=&member1=&member2=&member3=&member4=&member5=&member6=&member7=&member8=&member9=&namef0=&namef1=&namef2=&namef3=&namef4=&namef5=&namef6=&namef7=&namef8=&namef9=&namel0=&namel1=&namel2=&namel3=&namel4=&namel5=&namel6=&namel7=&namel8=&namel9=&keyword=&submit=Search)
You can view an image of the register for the one in St. Mary's, Dublin
Shane
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I have a baptism certificate from www.rootsireland.ie for
Catherine Carton
baptism/birth: 1 Nov 1850
Address: Kingston
Parish: Rathdrum
Denomination: Roman Catholic
Father: James Carton
Mother: Catherine
Sponsor: William Dillion
Sponsor: 2 Anne Doyle
Does this help anyone?
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phiona, should that be 1850? I see Anne Doyle features again.
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Anyone got a Laurence Carton in their lineage?
Regards jgk
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I'm pretty well convinced that my Eliza Carton Murphy is the daughter of Ralph & Mary Warren. Birth year is the same (1842ish). She's listed in various censuses as birthplace in Arklow, county Wicklow or Seven Churches, Wicklow (same as Glendalough).
Now if there's a connection with Alice Carton. Alice was born around 1846; also in Seven Churches (according to census). She married Michael McGuire. Oldest son named Ralph McGuire born in Annamoe, Wicklow on 19 May 1864; second son John born in Annamoe on 18 June 1866; other children are Ellen born 1870 in Cleator, Cumberland, England; Catherine born 1874 in Askam, Lancashire, England; Michael Jr born 1876 in Millom, Cumberland, England; Eliza Jane born 1878 in Millom.
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Re: Laurence Carton, do you have any dates or places?
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Marriage of Jacobus Carton 49 Bridgefoot St, Dublin & Catherina Mooney 26 Ushers Quay, Dublin.
Parish St Audeon Dublin on 15 Aug 1871
Fathers: Laurentii Carton Jacobi Mooney
Witnesses: Johannis Mooney Hanna Mooney
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/354ae50450001
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Information from IFHF website
Name: Cecilia Carton
Date of Birth/Baptism: 09-Aug-1840
Address: Churches Parish/Distrist: Glendalough, Co Wicklow
Denomination: RC
Father: Ralph Carton Mother: Mary Warren
Sponsors: John Bevel Bridget Neil
Information from FamilySearch.org
Celia Carton
Born: Ireland
Marriage: 07 Aug 1871 Manhattan, New York, New York
Spouse: John Cavanagh
Parents: Ralf Carton Mary Nail
Is this of interest to anyone?
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Re Laurence Carton
I do not have him in my tree at this stage, but I have found a Laurence Carton age 18 in 1899. He was travelling with a Hugh Carton age 15. Both are Irish. They were going from Liverpool to New York abaord the "Teutonic". There is some very fine writing on the document that I think says they would be joining an Aunt, who was a Mrs M Carton.
I have another Laurence Carton travelling from New York to South Hampton in Dec 1911 with a wife (No first name given). It says they were landed at Plymouth. No ages are given but they were travelling first class. The only other clue I can see is he says he is a citizen of USA.
I hope this helps someone. (Documents are available if wanted)
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hi can you look at marriage of Ralph and Mary Harman (Maybe Warren) 1831 On St.Mary's Dublin Reg for us to see if we can get any more details would be very much appreciated. if you can. Brad.
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They only reference I can find on irishgenealogy.ie to Ralph Carton from Glendalough is this entry.
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/5ec4380097504
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Numerous threads on other boards have caused great confusion but the latest one is here-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=740043.27
However, I'm posting the details below on this topic as it relates to the Kavanaghs of Brockagh, Co. Wicklow.
Many of the (R.C.) parish records are online and this includes Glendalough-
http://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0481
I have not gone through all these records but did extract enough baptisms for the children of John Kavanagh and Catherine Carton to show those born before and after Thomas in 1865.
All shown as Brockagh-
1) James born 6 Jan.1858
2) Patrick born 5 Apr.1860
3) Ralph born 31 Mar.1862
4) Thomas born 9 Apr.1865
Shown as Big Bridge which may possible lie within the boundaries of Brockagh-
5) Laurence born 24 June 1866
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Many thanks indeed, it is Thomas Birth Certificate that I bought. I hope it works out.