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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Vesta on Thursday 22 April 10 21:13 BST (UK)
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I am searching for the birth of John Harry Green I have his death Certificate, died May 1848 in Staines age 48, also his Will. I believe his mother was a Miss Green. He appears to have worked in New Broad St, lived in Golden Sq & other London addresses, he was twice a bankrupt, he had a common law wife Sophia,one child born London 1843 from census, 2 children born Eastbourne & a 4th child born Gravesend after his death. Despite two visits to London I am having no success finding out where he was born--- any suggestions welcome.
Vesta
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In which county is he living in 1841 and does the census show him as Y or N for born or not born in that county
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There is a further thread at:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,448940.msg3123079.html#msg3123079
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Why do you think his mother was a MISS Green? What was his occupation? Have you found him on the 1841 census? If not and you look at the John Greens born around 1800 you may find one who shared his occupation, giving you some idea of his place of birth. You say that he had a common law wife and one child born in 1843 from the census, but that must have been the 1851 census and he had died by then, so how do you know this is the right "wife" and children. Have you got their birth certificates?
On IGI there are some London possibilities. I only searched that area as you seem to think he lived at various London addresses.
John Harry Green baptised on 14 Nov 1799 St Botolph Bishopsgate, London, parents John and Harriet.
John Henry Green born 10 April 1799, baptised 19 May 1799 Saint Mary-St Marylebone Road, Saint Marylebone, London, parents John Green and Ann.
John Henry Green baptised 16 August 1801 Saint Andrew, Holborn, London, parents John Green and Elizabeth.
Lizzie
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What was his occupation?
See info re: previous thread posted by Nigel
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Firstly thank you all for the replies.
I have searched for him in the 1841 without success. I can find Sophia Beaumont in the 1841 in Hanover Sq born Bramerton Norfolk
John Harry claimed to be a Merchant & this is what is stated in the 2 Bankruptcy cases.
He leaves his pocessions to Miss Sophia Beaumont, a spinster, in his Will.
His first child Henry Barnard Green claims to have been born London. from later censuses. I have birth Refs for the other 3 children & Baptism certs: Mother given as Sophia Green. In 1851 Sophia is back living with her parents in Bramerton with the children
I also have a number of family letters. His death notice in The Times states John Harry Green , Merchant of New Broad St.
I have no actual proof that John Harry's mother was not married only implications in family letters. The family seemed to change addresss very frequently.
I seem to be stuck
Vesta
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Hi Vesta,
The first child may have been baptised as Harry Barnard Beaumont at Holy Trinity, Brompton Road, Kensington on 24 Dec 1844. His parents are named as John Harry and Sophia Beaumont of 114? Gloucester Road.
Nigel
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Hi
Part 1
Sophia Beaumont on the 1841 census is living in St George Hanover Square (HO107 733)
Looking for John Greens in St George Hanover Square of the right age you find John Green aged 40 at 19 Grafton Square St George Hanover Square (HO107 734/1 folio 41). Not completely clear but he looks to be a merchant and gives his birthplace as Middlesex.
In the household are three other male merchants (dittoed) and 4 servants (1 male, 3 female). The other three merchants are Richard L Green also aged 40 (1841 census usually rounded down adult ages, those over 15) also born Middlesex. The other two merchants were Septimus Carlisle aged 25 and George indexed as Weaves but looks more like Meares aged 30, neither born Middlesex.
London Gazette 20th September 1842
Notice is hereby given that the Partnership heretofore subsisiting between John Harry Green, George Hammond Meares, and Edward Richards, carrying on business at No 26, Lombard-street, in the city of London as Ship and Insurance brokers, is this day dissolved by mutual consent - Dated this day 19th September 1842
John Harry Green
George Hammond Meares
Edwd Richards
London Gazette 5th April 1844
On Tuesday the 30th April 1844 at the same Hour and Place
Edward Richard (sued with John Harry Green and George Hammond Meares) formerly of No 20 John Street, Adelphi, and afterwards No 19 Grafton-street, Berkeley-square, both in the county of Middlesex, and subsequently of Cape de Verds, Rio de Janeiro, Monte Video and Buenos Ayres, in South America, and then of 19 Grafton-street aforesaid and afterwards of No 20, John-street aforesaid and during all the time carrying on business at No 26, Lombard-street in the city of London, Merchant and Ship and Insurance Broker, and lately of No3, Princes-place, Duke-street, St James in the county aforesaid, out of business.
On his bankruptcy on 23rd April 1834 the London Gazette described John Harry Green as of Finch-lane in the city of London, Bill-Broker, Dealer and chapman.
As a broker operating in the city of London John Harry Green should have to have been licenced.
This is the London Metropolitan Archives leaflet on sworn borkers records
http://217.154.230.218/NR/rdonlyres/2C5CA6A0-6DA3-421F-88E6-7D3EFCEAB3B9/0/15SWORNBROKERSARCHIVES.pdf
To be a broker you had to be a freeman of the City of London which means you were a freeman of a city livery company. The brokers records will give you the connection to the livery company.
'All licensed brokers before 1856 had to be City Freemen and so the City Freedom Archives should also be consulted for personal details (usually including the name, abode and occupation of the broker's father) of brokers during this period.'
The LMA City of Freedom Archives research leaflet
http://217.154.230.218/NR/rdonlyres/3849DBCC-E0D4-4C1F-A26B-53055ABF67EB/0/14CITYFREEDOMARCHIVES.pdf
The LMA research leaflet on livery company apprenticeship records (held at the Guildhall or still with the livery company archives)
http://217.154.230.218/NR/rdonlyres/0B300021-F6C1-4502-BFD9-6358897FCB4E/0/16SEARCHINGFORMEMBERSORTHOSEAPPRENTICEDTOMEMBERSOFCITYOFLONDONLIVERYCOMPANIES.pdf
Regards
Valda
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Hi
Part 2
Returning to Richard L Green. Not a lot of Richard L Greens born within five years of circa 1801 on the IGI in Middlesex (the IGI is of course a far from complete index).
There is one
RICHARD LEE GREEN
Christening: 30 MAY 1798 St Botolph Bishopsgate, London
Father: JOHN
Mother: HARRIET
see LizzieW's post for the baptism of John Harry Green to the same parents
These are their other children's baptisms at the same church (see IGI for full details) or children baptised to a John and Harriet - the surname Green being very common
EDWARD FREDERICK GREEN Christening: 14 JUL 1801
GEORGE ALFRED GREEN Christening: 18 JUL 1803
JAMES MORING GREEN Christening: 13 APR 1805
JOHN GREEN Christening: 11 JUN 1808
slightly worrying there seems to be another John Green.
There is this book entitled
Title Sketches of the war in Greece, in a series of extracts from the private correspondence of P. J. G. with notes by R. L. Green ... and an appendix, etc
Authors Philip James GREEN, Richard Lee GREEN
Published 1827
You can obtain a copy through Amazon or Alibris
Richard Lee Green appears to be the British Vice Consul for Morea
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4lwbAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA283&dq=%22richard+lee+green%22&lr=&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=&num=100&as_brr=0&cd=9#v=onepage&q=%22richard%20lee%20green%22&f=false
There are other mentions of him in Google books including that he was brother to the Consul General of the Peloponnese Philip Green, though this may be a record which would be to early and Philip is given as Philip John.
The cemetery at Patras
records the burial of Richard Lee Green born 1798 died 1878
http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=el&u=http://2gym-patras.ach.sch.gr/1st_LifeSpanArea_gr.htm&ei=nbXRS7_MKqedOMKyhOAN&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CA0Q7gEwAw&prev=/search%3Fq%3D1798%2B%2522richard%2Blee%2Bgreen%2522%26num%3D100%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26rlz%3D1T4HPEA_en-GBGB236GB236
Though he died abroad it might be worth checking to see whether he left a will, particularly if he remained single.
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1176.htm
Marriage
4th April 1832 St Pancras Old Church
George Alfred Green Bachelor of ? Bloomsbury
Jane Buckley Dixon Spinster of this parish
Married by licence, both signed
Witnesses Kenneth, Jane and Ann Dixon, R Graham and Philip James Green
Annual Register 1823
At Zante the lady of Philip James Green, esq consul-general, for Morea, a son
There is a Philip J Green (Philip James on his children's baptisms) a merchant aged 54 born London on the 1851 census at Boyne House in Kensington with his wife and children. HO107 1468 folio 770
FO 78/135 Consuls John Cartwright, Henry Salt, Philip James Green, John Barker, Francis Werry, etc. 1825.
FO 78/147 Consuls John Cartwright, Henry Salt, John Barker, Francis Werry, N. W. Werry, Philip James Green. 1826.
Philip James Green's possible death in 1861 from the London Gazette
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/22478/pages/539
and may be something to do with George Alfred
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/22018/pages/2350
George Alfred was staying with his nephew Octavious Green (the son of Philip James) and his wife (born in Greece) and children on the 1881 census in Kingston upon Thames RG11 836 folio 63. On this census and the two previous when he was in Kent he seems to have remarried to a Mary Ellen.
Depending on how many Sophia Beaumonts there are around a Sophia Beaumont baptised a son James on 22nd April 1838 at St Mary Hendon. She was a single woman in the Hendon workhouse. The child was buried 1st June 1838 at the same church aged 3 months from the workhouse.
The connections are all still to prove but something to get started on.
Regards
Valda
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A really huge thank you to all of you, so many things are now falling into place-- I have work to do on all of this but now you have found me the birth of Henry Barnard & the likely birth of John Harry. It is the Greek connection that makes me believe I will now be able to solve this long standing problem. John Harry's mother was Harriet & Sophia named the child born after John Harry's death Harriet.
I realy do appreciate all this help
Sincere Thanks
Vesta
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Hi
St Paul's Anglican Church Registers Athens Greece
Marriages
18 Nov 1860 GREEN Hy. Alfred eld. s/o Richard Lee Green (Green Bey of Patras)
de STREIT Sophie d/o Baron de Streit, Consul General of Belgium
Buried in the same cemetery as his father
Henry Alfred Green 1832-1896
The other Green buried there may be his mother
Avrakomi Green 1811-1886
J 77/159/3816A Divorce Court File: 3816A. Appellant: Henry Alfred Green. Respondent: Sophia Green. Co-respondent: Eugene Streit. Type: Husband's petition for divorce [hd]. 1875
Regards
Valda
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I have made enormous progress in the last week but I think I may have uncovered another family scandal.
In the 1891 census living with Octavius Green is a William K. Green listed as his nephew age 14 born Kensington.
In the 1881 I have found a William K Green age 3 as a boarder in Ashbourne Derbyshire. My problem is I can't find his parents or even just his mother. He then just vanishes!
Guidence please.
Vesta
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Hi
I don't know who the William Green in Derbyshire was in 1881. As far as I can tell he has no connection at all. This family isn't likely to place their children with shoemakers. In 1881 the family appears to be in Montenegro.
These are details for William Cardell Kirby Green and his father William Kirby Mackenzie Green.
Both men seem to have spent a large part of their lives out of the country
The record of old Westminsters: a biographical list of all those who are ... - Page 1048
'Green, John Gresham Kirby. son of William Kirby Green, of Dowa, Nyasaland,
Resident Collector ; b. Dec. 28, 1907 ; adm. April 28, 1921 ; left July 1925. '
Appointment to Fez - Page 265
'Kirby Green, a Commissioner in the Nyasaland administrative service, ... Young
William Kirby Green began his diplomatic career as secretary to his father,'
15th February 1904 St Stephen, Kensington
William Cardell Kirby Green 28 Bachelor Adminstration BCA moticl? 30 Camden Grove Kensington W, William Kirby Green, KCMG
Ada Gresham Bois 25 Spinster 40 Gloucester Road SW, Edgar Bois, Gentleman
Both signed, marriage by banns
Witnesses Edgar? Bois and A J ? Green
also
Marriages Sep 1901
BOIS Ada Gresham Holborn 1b 1460
GREEN William Kirby Holborn 1b 1460
18th August 1876 St Stephen, Kensington
William Kirby Cardwell Green parents William Kirby and Mary, 13 Gloucester Road, father’s occupation H M at Scutari Albania
William Kirby Green the elder
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Notes_by_the_Way.djvu/212
Annual Register 1892
‘Sir William Kirby Green, KCMG, British Minister to Morocco, died suddenly in Morocco city, on Feb. 25, where he had arrived, ... Sir William Kirby Green, who was a member of one of the oldest hereditary Consular families of the Levant’
Peerage, baronetage, and knightage
‘W. GREEN, LADY (Knt.'s widow). —MARY, d. of Col. Sir Thomas Reade, KCB, consul-gen, in Tunis; m. 1863, Sir William Kirby Green, KCMG : late envoy ...’
W.K. GREEN, his wife gave birth to a daughter 6th January 1870 at Tunis, Vice Consul
Mary Agnes Margaret GREEN, died 9th July 1871 in Tunis, aged eighteen months, the daughter of William Kirby Green, British Vice Consul in Tunis
http://website.lineone.net/~aldosliema/residents4.htm
Who was who: a companion to Who's who : containing the biographies ...
‘London, 5 May 1876; s. of Sir William Kirby Green, KCMG, Diplomatic Corps, and Mary, d. of Sir Thomas Reade, KCMG ; m. Ada Gresham Bola ; three s. Educ. : Eton ; English College, Bruges. Served in 37th Imperial Yeomanry in Boer War ...’
Full name
'Sir William Kirby Mackenzie Green (1836-1891), diplomatist; entered consular service, c. 1864; vice-consul at Tetuan and acting consul at Tangier, 1859-1869; acting agent and consul-general at Tunis, 1869-71, Damascus, 1871-3, Bairut, 1873-6; consul at Scutari, 1876-9; consul-general for Montenegro, 1879-86; envoy to Morocco and consul-general at Tangier, 1886-91; K.C.M.G., 1887.'
London Gazette 1891 Octavius Green handles the probate of Sir William Kirby Mackenzie Green’s will.
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/26207/pages/5111
Regards
Valda
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WOW!! what can I say but a huge thank you. I have read this all through twice, but how is Octavius the Uncle to young William K. Green? Could the child born in Zante in 1823 of which as yet I do not have a name be William K son of Philip James?
I had just found an incoming passenger list of 1934 with a William K. Green & an Ada G Green, but didn't think they would fit!
Best set to work
My thanks again
Vesta
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Hi
Sir William Kirby Mackenzie Green (1836-1891)
Philip James is likely to have left a will
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1176.htm
Deaths Mar 1861 Green Philip James Kensington 1a 54
Regards
Valda
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Thank you again Valda
Vesta
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Still struggling a bit. In the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography William Kirby Mackenzie Green b.1836 Nauplia - d.24 Feb 1891 Morocco. It says he was the son of Sir John Green d.1877 & his wife Margaret Suter. William married Mary Reade or Radle. They had 2 sons one called John Arthur.
Now Octavius Green was William's Nephew, executor to his Will, son of Philip J. Green. I have not been able to fit Sir John Green anywhere to my tree-- who was his father?? All these Sirs & Consuls don't quite fit with my na're do well John Harry Green. John Harry was one of 6 sons born to John died 1825 (Paviors records) & Harriet Green--- it seems 3 did very well for themselves. But where does Sir John fit in??
Very Confused
Vesta
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Hi
I don't actually understand the connection either, but supplementing the information a little (not helped by the fact the family is constantly out of the country)
Green Lady Margaret daughter of the late George Suter Esq Married 1831 Sir John Green C.B. who died 1877
Debrett's baronetage and knightage 1879
and
Appletons' annual cyclopaedia and register of important events, Volume 16
Sir William Kirby Green, KCMG, British Minister to Morocco, died suddenly ... He was a son of Sir John Green, for many years Consular-General at Bucharest,
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=XKoYAAAAIAAJ&q=kirby+%22sir+john+green%22&dq=kirby+%22sir+john+green%22&lr=&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=&num=100&as_brr=0&cd=4
FO 32/110 Consuls Richard Wilkinson, Anthony N. Vitalis, John Green, Horatio B. Suter, Foreign various and Consular Domestic. 1841.
There is still of course the problematic baptism of John Green in 1808
Regards
Valda
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Thanks again Valda for added info.Were the parents of the John Green b.1808 John & Harriet of Bishopsgate? As John Harry would have been 8 yrs old surely they would not give another son the name of John.I know that John, husband of Harriet, died 1825 but not how old he was. When I went up to the Guildhall Library to search Paviors records I found another Green called William who paid his subscription of eight shillings in 1811 which would mean he was a member until 1815 at sixpence a quarter, he also lived in Bishopsgate.
It just seems so strange that not one of John Harry's decendants know a single thing about his parents or siblings. John Harry did claim to have been disowned by his father.
I have been able to trace a number of the actual Baptism records for the Greens but not for John Harry (only on IGI) I wonder if another trip to London to Metroplitan Archives might produce his actual record showing his parents.
This is proving very difficult.
Vesta
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Hi
There are cases where families do give two children the same name and in this case the later baptism does exist.
I don't really think it strange that John Harry's descendants know little about their father's family. Their mother probably arrived in their father's household as a servant which is why he did not marry her and why he was disowned by his family because he had a relationship with her and maintained his children but died while they were still young. After his death she did leave the area didn't she?
Regards
Valda
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Thanks for your thoughts Valda. I have at last found the John Green baptised 11 June 1808 with the same name parents as the other 6 sons. It would be too much of a coincidence for there to be another John & Harriet in Bishopsgate. Sir John Green with a wife called Margaret Suter died in 1877 -- I found this in Who's Who--- I had no idea I could get that sight but I typed in my library card number & it worked. I just wonder could Sir John be the John born 1808?
Trying to trace the Kirby Greens line down I see that 3 generations ago they hyphenated Kirby-Green.
Have you any suggestions where I should look for the actual
d of b of Sir John?
Vesta
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Hi
Depending where you live your library card may give you access to The Times newspaper. If so you may have a death notice for Sir John Green which gives you his age.
Regards
Valda
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Hi,
My name is Nigel kirby-Green. John Kirby-Green(at westminster school) was my father, his father was William Cardwell Kirby-Green, his father William Mackenzie Kirby -Green(later Sir) and his father was John Green (later Sir) who was a diplomat in Greece and then Egypt and then in what is now modern Romania. There is a connection not fully clear to me until this exchange between John Green and Phillip and Richard Lee Green. My great grandfather's obituary refers to being a member of a line of hereditary consuls for the Levant Company and there is a John Green who was the Treasurer of the Levant Company in the early nineteenth Century - i have been wondering if there is a connection to the John Green above?
Regards,
Nigel
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Hello Nigel
Delighted to "meet" you. Am I correct that you had 2 brothers Philip Marion Kirby-Green & John Gresham K-G. If so you are the 3rd son that I have been trying to put a name to. I am really trying to solve the connection between Octavius Green & William Kirby Mackenzie Green. Do you know if Sir John d.1877 was the son of Harriet & John Green of Bishopsgate? if that were so the jigsaw would be solved!
Look forward to hearing from you.
Vesta
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Vesta,
Nice to meet you too. No i am not the third son - john gresham kirby-green was my father, philip my uncle - the third son was my uncle Tom kirby-Green who was murdered by the Gestapo in 'The Great Escape' during WWII.
Yes John Green (1808) is Sir John Green as i know certainly that one of his brothers was George Alfred Green.
Regards,
Nigel
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Hi Nigel
Welcome to Rootschat
It might be better to amend your post so there is less to identify any living members of your family including yourself. More up to date family details can be communicated through Rootschat personal messages (pms). You need to post three times then you can send and receive pms by clicking on the 'name' of the poster.
'They were styled consular agents, probably because the Levant Company being bound ... Patras Philip John Green Consul Richard Lee Green Vice-Consul Salonica'
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=x_sWAQAAIAAJ&q=%22levant+company%22+%22john+green%22&dq=%22levant+company%22+%22john+green%22&lr=&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=&num=100&as_brr=0&cd=2
This may not necessarily be the John Green who married Harriet since it has already been stated of Sir John that the ...family have held British consular posts in the Levant for generations
'John Green, Esq. is treasurer to the Levant Company, and resided in Constantinople from 1774 to 1780. In the year 1778, he witnessed a violent plague during ...'
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=NYEBAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA117&dq=%22levant+company%22+%22john+green%22&lr=&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=&num=100&as_brr=0&cd=3#v=onepage&q=%22levant%20company%22%20%22john%20green%22&f=false
A History of the Levant Company - online book
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=XqRMR6i9sOUC&printsec=frontcover&dq=records+%22levant+company%22&source=bl&ots=w_2U3j5DHB&sig=mqR2wxJ9gMkeBQGAvyTKNO3CGQw&hl=en&ei=qbTlS7iKE6SfOJ_-4dsN&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=records%20%22levant%20company%22&f=false
Records of the Levant Company at The National Archives
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/searchresults.asp?SearchInit=0&txtsearchterm=levant+company&txtfirstdate=&txtlastdate=&txtrestriction=&hdnsorttype=Reference&image1.x=24&image1.y=6
and at the Guildhall Library
http://www.history.ac.uk/gh/s-z.htm
Regards
Valda
co-moderator London and Middlesex
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Valda
Thanks for all the above info. It is exciting making contact with
Nigel & we should be able to help each other. It was your guidance that brought this about!
Vesta
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Hi
also sent in a pm 4/7/10
There is no obvious PCC will or a will held at the LMA for a John Green died circa 1825 - there could be one at the Guildhall - their wills though indexed are not online. He could of course have died outside London.
e.g. from the Gentleman's Magazine of 1825 a possibility though not of the City of London
August 20th 1825
At Ramsgate, aged 65, John Green, esq. late of New Bond-street, London
and this webpage on him which is very lucky?
http://www.achievements.co.uk/news/index.php?year=2002&month=9&id=7
Sacred to the memory of John Green Esq.of London
born in Hull 6th April 1760: died at Ramsgate 20th August 1825
(this research company look to have done further background work on this man and his family and may have produced a tree etc)
baptism in Hull 11th June 1760 for a John Green with a father John Green
also a sister
ANN GREEN
Christening: 08 APR 1761 Holy Trinity, Kingston Upon Hull, Yorkshire
Father: JOHN GREEN
If this John left a will, since he died in Kent it may be with the Kent Record Office.
The Lady's Magazine is extremely useful and creates a real breakthrough (though I've no idea where the marriage took place though)
10 November 1787
John Green esq of Great Tower-hill, to Miss Harriet Staniforth of Broad-street Buildings
which leads to these two very late baptisms both on 23rd April 1836 Saint Mary Magdalen, Richmond, Surrey
Betsy Staniforth daughter of Charles and Ann, London, father's occupation merchant born 22nd May 1765
Harriet Staniforth daughter of Charles and Ann, London, father's occupation merchant born 26th August 1767
which leads you to this PCC will
Will of Charles Staniforth, Merchant of Broad Street Buildings London 13 September 1797 PROB 11/1296
and this will
Will of Betsey Staniforth of Walmer, Kent 31 December 1847 PROB 11/2066
and these censuses
1841 census HO107 470/17 folio 50
3 R N H Buildings Walmer Kent
Betsey Staniforth 70 Ind not born Kent
Seraphina Green 45 Ind born Kent
John T Green 15 not born Kent
plus 3 servants
Deaths Dec 1861
Green Seraphina Eastry 2a 429
1851 census HO107 1631 folio 651
Albion Terrace Deal Kent
Eleanor Green 60 Head Unmarried Fundholder London
Seraphina Green 59 Sister Unmarried Fundholder Blackheath Kent
Mary Pay 35 Servant Unmarried House servant Brown? Sussex
Mary Pay the house servant is important as she proves where Eleanor is in 1841.
1861 census RG9 544 folio
65 Strand Walmer 47
Eleanor Green 70 Head Unmarried Fundholder London
Seraphina Green 69 Sister Unmarried Fundholder Kent
plus 3 servants one of which is
Mary Pay 45 Servant Unmarried House servant Sussex
and these baptisms
ELEANOR GREEN
Birth: 22 APR 1790
Christening: 27 MAY 1790 Saint Olave Hart Street, London
Father: JOHN GREEN
Mother: HARRIOT
AUGUSTA GREEN
Birth: 16 AUG 1788
Christening: 15 SEP 1788 Saint Olave Hart Street, London
Father: JOHN GREEN
Mother: HARRIOTT
There is a burial for Harriet Green at Kensal Green cemetery 6th February 1837. This Harriet was aged 69 from Twickenham Middlesex (under 2 miles from Richmond Surrey across the river Thames). If it is her than she is likely to have been buried in a purchased grave and Kensal Green cemetery should be able to tell you who is buried with her. Kensal Green cemetery opened in 1834.
1841 census HO107 658/10 folio 49
Montpelin? Row Twickenham Middlesex
Eleanor Green 50 Ind born Middlesex
Mary Pay 25 F S not born Middlesex
and finally back to the Staniforths and maybe the John Green baptism in Hull. There is only one Charles Staniforth marriage to an Ann on the IGI - it doesn't of course make it the right one just because the IGI has it, but it is an interesting coincidence of names - bearing in mind of course Green is a very common surname.
CHARLES STANIFORTH
ANN GREEN
Marriage: 04 AUG 1763 Batley, Yorkshire
Batley is over 60 miles from Hull which is in the east Riding of Yorkshire as Batley would be I think in the West Riding.
Googling Charles Staniforth you get information like this concerning his son John
House of Commons 1790-1820 volume 1
John Staniforth (died 1830) of Norton Hall Suffolk
s of Charles Staniforth, merchant of Broad Street Buildings London and Kingston-upon-Hull Yorks married Jan
1793 Miss Pitts of Bridlington Quay Yorks at least 1s 1 da suc fa 1797
Dir Bank of Eng 1807-1819
asst Levant Company 1817 ...........
Regards
Valda
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Valda thank you very much for the above. It is very helpful.
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Just linking to this topic (possibly) on the same Green family.
Edward Frederick Green, Painter of Portraits and Exotic topics
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=733406.new;topicseen#new
Sarah :)
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Thanks Sarah for including me.
Edward Frederick Green was the 5th son of John & Harriet Green He was the Vice Consul in Tunis. b.11 Jan 1801 Bap 14 Jul 1801 d 1884, from family records
He married 2 Jun 1840 in Malta to Catherine Colona Stilton. I have only found one child for them Melita Jane Green b 30 April 1841 Tunis.
The 7th son James Moring Green Vice Consul in Naples was a well known artist but I had not heard that EFG was also an artist. The Green family were prominent in The Levant Co: & the Consular Service receiving many decorations.
Vesta
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=733406.new;topicseen#new
Hi Vesta,
There has been another reply on the topic for you. If you can click on the notify button on the other topic Vesta it will let you know when there has been another reply :)
Regards
Sarah
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Hi,
I am a descendant of Philip James Green, Esquire, British Consul for the Morea and I was wondering if anyone could assist me in tracking down his ancestors. Also I have in my archives a substantial amount of detailed information relating to Philips descendants and those of his brother and sister, so if anyone wishes for assistance in that regard I am more than willing to help however I can.
Regards
Alexander
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Welcome to RootsChat Alexander, Vesta has been notified of your reply.
Regards
Sarah
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Hi,
I am a descendant of Philip James Green, Esquire, British Consul for the Morea and I was wondering if anyone could assist me in tracking down his ancestors. Also I have in my archives a substantial amount of detailed information relating to Philips descendants and those of his brother and sister, so if anyone wishes for assistance in that regard I am more than willing to help however I can.
Regards
Alexander
I am looking for a James Green Esq., who had a daughter Emma, born circa 1814, (as the 1871 Census states that she was living at 7 Worcester Terrace, Clifton, Bristol) and gives her age of 56 and birth place Marylebone, Middlesex. She married George Molyneux on the 6th July 1837 in London and after he died, she married secondly William Edward Ker Fox on the 13th July 1849 at All Souls Lagham Place. She had her children by her second husband, baptised at Marylebone, so she must have come from that parish. In both marriages, her father is stated as James Green esquire and living. He was apparently living at Cheltenham in 1837 when his daughter met the Molyneux family who were also residing in the town.
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Hello Alexander
For some strange reason, I was notified of your post today 26 Sept 2018, so sorry I am 10 months late in replying!
I know a fair bit about the GREEN family. Philip James Green was the 2nd of 9 sons & he had 3 sisters.
The Green's were a well to do family & all the sons did well for themselves except the 4th son John Harry & he is the one that got me researching! John Harry took my G Uncle's name just 2 months after he died & pretended he belonged to another family.
What are the questions do you want answering?
Philip James & Frances Dorothea had 8 children, Which child do you descend from?
Regards
Vesta
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Hello Vesta
No apologies required it was probably a bug in the messaging system.
I have it on good authority that Philip James Green was the son of Algernon Green (a Protestant Pastor) and his wife Patricia Celia Stamforth (a wealthy Scottish heiress).
With that in mind, my question is thus: do we have any concrete primary sources regarding Philip's ancestry? If so who were his grandparents and so forth?
Any information you can provide would be most appreciated.
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Good morning Alexander
Well, the Phillip James Green that I have ( with Records) was b. 2 Jan 1797 in Newington. He became a Consul for The Levant Trading Co: ( similar to The East India Co). The Levant Co. traded around Greece, Turkey & the Islands & the British representative in charge was known as Consul. Do a search on The Levant Co.
He married Frances Dorothea Larking in Paris on 11 July 1820. They had 8 children.
Philip James parents were John Green & Harriet STANIFORTH. In fact, Staniforth comes up as a middle or first name in following generations.
He is buried with his wife, mother & some siblings in Kensal Green Cemetery. I have a photo of the grave,
There are lots of records of The Levant Co. at Metropolitan Archives & The Guildhall Library in London.
Did you receive my "personal post"?
What is your authority for your Philip? James's parents?
Vesta
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There is a book entitled
Title Sketches of the war in Greece, in a series of extracts from the private correspondence of P. J. G. with notes by R. L. Green ... and an appendix, etc
Authors Philip James GREEN, Richard Lee GREEN
Published 1827
You can obtain a copy through Amazon or Alibris
Richard Lee Green appears to be the British Vice Consul for Morea
Don't know if you read this -- it was sent to me a few years back from RootsChat.
These two brothers fit my work.
Vesta
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Philip James Green apptd C 1817 [FO 881/2353], CG 1824 [LA]
[cf. J.P. Green C 1822, 1823 [BIC]]
[already described as CG for the Morea in AnnReg, 1820, p. 559]
<m. 11 Jul 1820 Paris to Frances Dorothea d/o John Larking [AnnReg, as above]>
Richard Lee Green VC 1824 [LA][VC 1824-1828 [Gunning]]
[“His emoluments if any, allowed him by the Consul, his brother.” [FO 881/2353]]
<b. 1798, d. 1878 Patras; bro. of Philip, joint author with him of Green & Green,
where Philip is described on the title page as “late British Consul for the Morea”,
and Richard as “Vice-Consul”>
Extract from the records of the Levant Co:
Philip James Green's father was Treasurer of The Levant Company & also a member of the Court of Paviors Livery Company so a Freeman of The City of London.
Vesta
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Hello Vesta
Thank you for the prompt reply.
There seems to be a problem with the sources at hand.
According to the 'Bulletin of the Association for Heraldry and Genealogy of Hellas', Number 11, Records of the 3rd Pan-Hellenic Symposium of Genealogy and Heraldry, (October 29th - November 1st. 1998), page 512, we are informed that a Francois Nicolas Merlin married Augusta Green, sister of Philip James. Their parents are listed as Algernon Green and Patricia Celia Stamforth (Staniforth?)
Also, according to the 'Grandes Familles de Grece, d' Albanie et de Constantinople', Dictionnaire Historique et Genealogique, Paris 1999, by Mihail Dimitri Sturdza, page 437, the same fact is asserted. This primary academic document been the equivalent of Burke's Peerage for Eastern Europe is of great authority and its gravity can hardly be contested.
That been said, the John Green and Harriet Staniforth you mentioned as Philip's parents appear as a paradox. What are the primary sources that validate their existence as Philip's progenitors ?
Regardless, are we aware of John Green and Harriet Staniforth's ancestry? If so who were their respective ancestors?
Looking forward hearing from you
Kind Regards
Alexander
PS: Thank you for the additional information regarding Philip James Green's carrier but I am fairly certain that in the family library we have a copy of his Book 'Sketches of the war in Greece' including some of his letters to his brother and associates. His and his siblings history is well known to me.
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Hello Alexander
Did you receive the 3 personal messages? I have many documents to support my work.
Vesta
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Hello Vesta
I did receive them and I am in the process of examining the information.
Thank you for your help
Kind Regards
Alexander
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During my research for the James Green Esq., that I have been trying to trace, I have come across some references to the various other James Greens, which may be of interest to other people who may visit this site.... viz:- the one who was the Consul General in Tangiers, appointed 19th March 1806? and retired in July 1817, after overseeing the new building. His wife died 21st January 1837 in Bentinck Street, London, she was the sister of Lord Dufferin and Claneboye.
Also Captain James Green R.N., who commanded H.M.S. Daphne, 22 guns in 1813.
James Green of Lincoln's Inn Fields, who died 20th September 1850.
James Green of Portsmouth House, Todmorden.
James Henry Green of Penge Park, Anerley.
James Green the portrait painter, of South Crescent, Bedford Square, London who died 27th March 1834 at Bath.
James Green of the Falcon Glass Works Holland Street and Brixton.
The only info that I have read from other sources, which may not be reliable, about the Greens that you are following is listed below.
P.J. Green who married Frances Dorothea, 2nd daughter of John Larking of Clare House Kent and niece to Sir Charles Style.
John Philip Green of Ceylon, his eldest son who was married on the 25th March 1857 at the Parish Church of West Malling to Jane Mary 2nd daughter of the late Avetas Akers Esq. of Malling Abbey, Kent.
Philip Green was born 1797 at Boyne House, Uxbridge Road, Kensington, London, a merchant and Consul General for Morea, died 10th January 1861 and his son Octavius born in 1823 at Zante. He bred in 1871, 'Monarch' the prize winning mastiff, whilst living at Boyne House. In 1891 he was stated as being as the lawful attorney of Dame Mary Green, the widow of Sir Wiliam Kirby Green, late of Tangier.
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Most of your second paragraph is correct.
Vesta