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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Tephra on Tuesday 04 May 10 11:30 BST (UK)

Title: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Tephra on Tuesday 04 May 10 11:30 BST (UK)

Welcome to this weeks Scavenger Hunt........  This one is rather intriguing to say the least.   :D

Good Luck and Good Hunting

Barbara

                                    ************************

When I first started my family research, I already had a copy of my great great  grandparents marriage certificate.  They were John Murphy (born Sydney, 19 June 1834) & Mary McNerty (born Kilrush, age given at marriage 21 – name probably s/be McInerney). They were married at Tambo, Victoria, Australia on 30 Sept 1859.

John’s parents were listed as James & Catherine Murphy. 

We (myself and other descendants) have since tracked Catherine pretty well.  She came to Australia with a convict mother, Mary Kelliher/Callaghan/Callagher arriving 1817 on the “Canada”.  Mary married Samuel Higgins and Vardy Sheehan.

Catherine married Phillip Smith in 1832 and had one daughter Susan.

She then had 8 children with James Murphy as follows:

John -  1834 Sydney (baptised 10 Sep 1834 St Mary’s Cathedral)
Catherine - 1835 NSW (d1836)
Catherine - 3 Sept 1836 Appin NSW
Bridget – 1841 Greendale NSW
Margaret – 1841
Anastatia – 1847 Petersham NSW
Michael – 23 Jan 1852 Lachlan District, NSW
James – 9 Jan 1853 Cowra NSW (d1859)

I have quite a lot of information on all children.

There does not seem to be a marriage between Catherine & James. 

What I do NOT have is anything on James Murphy, the father of these children!   James “disappears” around 1853, and Catherine marries again to John Walters in 1853 and had a further 3 children Elizabeth, Joseph & Susannah.

I have ordered a few baptism certificates for the children (John & James – first & last) but no further details are given on parents than names. 

There is a Murphy family on the 1841 census that MAY be them – at TOWN: Bringelly Cumberland, DISTRICT: Patrick Plains-Port Phillip.

Phillip Smith remarried in 1834, so I am not sure why Catherine did not marry James (if she didn’t that is).

The Murphy children and Catherine herself all end up in the Omeo area of Victoria, where she dies on 29 July 1877.

Where did James come from?  And where did he go?  He probably died and was buried without it being reported – maybe in the goldfields. 

There are a few James Murphy possibilities for Catherine’s James.  There were quite a few convicts of this name.  I suspect it may be one of the 2 that were on the “Lonach” in 1825 – only because one was stationed with William Cox in Windsor which was where Catherine married Phillip Smith.

Does anyone have any ideas of how to find which James it was, and where he came from?
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Tuesday 04 May 10 12:03 BST (UK)
Oh I am so excited!  I really hope you can help me with this!  Any q's please ask as I may have more that I have forgotten.

Mosher
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Tuesday 04 May 10 15:00 BST (UK)
OK, well I am off to bed, so won't be able to respond to the influx of posts until tomorrow am now (GMT +8 hours).

(fingers crossed...)

Mosher ???

Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Finley 1 on Tuesday 04 May 10 15:15 BST (UK)
Well this is going to be a challenge..  But one thought is that he was already married .. so couldnt marry her.
Or maybe just a man who couldnt be tied down.. there were a lot of them about..
Dont know where to suggest looking...
but will browse a little if I can.. later.
xin
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Tuesday 04 May 10 23:49 BST (UK)
Oh dear... this is a bit sad.  :'(

Thanks xin.  My first thought was that he was already married but then Catherine was also.  If he was a convict, didn't they let them remarry knowing they wouldn't see their families again, and that it was good for the settlement?

He stuck around for a long time - almost 20 years of children anyway.
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Wednesday 05 May 10 04:52 BST (UK)
It is a bit dire when nearly the only posts on your own scanevger hunt are from yourself, but i am bumping this up!  ;D I am sure someone will take up the challenge!  We can't just let James go, can we?  He needs a decent background like everyone else.  ;)

So... anyone???  I can just keep responding to myself, I guess... I do have lovely conversations with my other personalities. ::)

Mosher
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Finley 1 on Wednesday 05 May 10 07:38 BST (UK)
I will join you in your private conversations, cos I am peeping at the records, but getting nowhere.. I have ordered the time machine for 4.30 pm is that ok with you.

 ;D ;D ;D

xin
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Wednesday 05 May 10 08:02 BST (UK)
Cool!  Will you pick me up?  Do I need to pack anything other than toothbrush and change of undies?

 ;D  :P
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Finley 1 on Wednesday 05 May 10 08:10 BST (UK)
Doubt it -- seems like it carries anything thats needed.

 ;D ;D

off on the search now.
xin
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Wednesday 05 May 10 11:07 BST (UK)
Crikey xin, do you know where we are?  And what do we do now, go out and yell "James, where the bloody hell are ya?"   ;D

Mosher
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Lady Di on Wednesday 05 May 10 11:53 BST (UK)
OK - first question

Mosher, have you checked the newspapers in Australia for any reference to a James Murphy?
(I found the death of one of mine (unregistered) via the newspaper. He was buried on his property out west in 1855)

Anyway, back to the subject, Are you sure that the three "marriages" (or supposed marriage) for Catherine are all for the same lady? When she married John Walters, did she say that she was a widow? Maiden name? Parents names?

If I recall correctly, the birth certs for James & Catherine's children would only be the baptism records so I guess there's not much information shown there. ::)

Have you had a look at any Land records to see if James Murphy was granted land out Lachlan way in abt 1850. That's just the right time for a lot of land releases and squatters heading west.

Because their son Michael was born/Bp at Lachlan (and Forbes wasn't even started at that time), one assumes that they probably went west as squatters or followed the Gold Rush to the Forbes area.

Have you been in touch with the Forbes Family History Group. They have more information than any group I've ever seen about the settlers and the gold rush? They are also just starting to investigate any convicts who are buried in their area - whether their death is registered of not.

Have you tried to find out what happened to the James Murphy x 2 who came as convicts (Via Lonach) James Murphy does sound rather like an Irish name (assumption - sorry).

Does it show anywhere an occupation for James?

Sorry for all the questions but if you've already tried these avenues, then we can start to look elsewhere.

Di


Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Lady Di on Wednesday 05 May 10 12:03 BST (UK)

 Catherine marries again to John Walters in 1853 and had a further 3 children Elizabeth, Joseph & Susannah.



Where did Catherine marry John Walters?

Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Lady Di on Wednesday 05 May 10 12:10 BST (UK)
How old was Catherine when she arrived with her mother Mary in 1817?

Where and when were Elizabeth, Joseph & Susannah Walters born?





Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Wednesday 05 May 10 12:33 BST (UK)
Ok, (thanks lady Di!!):

I have gone back and rechecked and I can't find a marriage for Catherine & John Walters either.  The bloomin floozy, why couldn't she make it easy for me?

The last Murphy boy was born 1853 in Cowra, and the first Walter child (Elizabeth) was also born in Cowra on 12 Jan 1855.  So I presume she met John Walters in Cowra.

Joseph Walters was born 1858 in Binalong, and Susannah I also have born 1858 in Binalong.  There was a lot of twins in the family (inc my grandad), so very likely they were also.

It is not really known (I don't think) how old Catherine was when she arrived but she is listed on her death "card" as being 63 when she died in 1877.  This would have her year of birth as 1814, so possibly 3 when she arrived.

I will go back and read your long post now to check other info!

Mosher
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Wednesday 05 May 10 12:51 BST (UK)
OK - first question

Mosher, have you checked the newspapers in Australia for any reference to a James Murphy?
(I found the death of one of mine (unregistered) via the newspaper. He was buried on his property out west in 1855)

Yes, I have looked but there are heaps of news articles (good and bad!) about James Murphys.   If they were living in Cowra, what newspaper would a death notice be in?  To be honest, I don't know that they were very flush, so doubt they would have put a notice in.

Quote
Anyway, back to the subject, Are you sure that the three "marriages" (or supposed marriage) for Catherine are all for the same lady? When she married John Walters, did she say that she was a widow? Maiden name? Parents names?

I had been in contact with a researcher who assured me she had absolute proof that this was the same lady but then refused to give me any further info as I think she was going to write a book or something.  I am not that sure that the Murphy family are that (in)famous but they were an early family in the Omeo district and raised a bit of a ruckus there.   ;D

Other family that I have run into on the net all have the same details so I am going to say that I THINK she is the same lady.

Quote
Have you had a look at any Land records to see if James Murphy was granted land out Lachlan way in abt 1850. That's just the right time for a lot of land releases and squatters heading west.

Because their son Michael was born/Bp at Lachlan (and Forbes wasn't even started at that time), one assumes that they probably went west as squatters or followed the Gold Rush to the Forbes area.

Have you been in touch with the Forbes Family History Group. They have more information than any group I've ever seen about the settlers and the gold rush? They are also just starting to investigate any convicts who are buried in their area - whether their death is registered of not.

well, now we're cooking with gas!  I haven't heard of the Forbes Family History Group!  In fact i don't even know where Forbes is... but will google and find it. 

How do I find land records?  I know John Murphy had land in Benambra (Omeo Plains) but don't know if James had any.  It gets confusing as there is a Miles Murphy who was an early settler in Binalong, so any searches bring up heaps on him.  I did wonder if Miles & James were related but haven't found anything.

Quote
Have you tried to find out what happened to the James Murphy x 2 who came as convicts (Via Lonach) James Murphy does sound rather like an Irish name (assumption - sorry).

One of them is listed as marrying someone else, so that counts one of them out.  The other I can see having a ToL & CoF but nothing further.  Not to say it's not there, just haven't found anything.  He is the one I prefer as he sounds a bit more dishy (the other had a missing front tooth!)   

Quote
Does it show anywhere an occupation for James?

The one with Catherine is usually listed as a shepherd.  But I think that counts for most farm workers back then.  The one from the Lonach (more dishy one) is listed on CoF as Labourer.

Will keep looking!


Thanks again!


Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Lady Di on Wednesday 05 May 10 12:54 BST (UK)
I cant see an Elizabeth being born in 1855 in Cowra - any surname  ???

The registration numbers for Joseph Water/Walter (parents John & Catherine) is 5150/5151

The registration number for Susannah WALTERS (parents John & Catherine) is 5159

There are 8 children's births registered between Joheph & Susannah which makes me think that they are not twins and even possibly not siblings - unless you have other proof.

What makes you think that Catherine actually hooked up with John Walters?

OOps -

Sorry - haven't read your post yet - but will post this first then read yours

Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Lady Di on Wednesday 05 May 10 13:05 BST (UK)
Quote
Anyway, back to the subject, Are you sure that the three "marriages" (or supposed marriage) for Catherine are all for the same lady? When she married John Walters, did she say that she was a widow? Maiden name? Parents names?

I had been in contact with a researcher who assured me she had absolute proof that this was the same lady but then refused to give me any further info as I think she was going to write a book or something.  I am not that sure that the Murphy family are that (in)famous but they were an early family in the Omeo district and raised a bit of a ruckus there.   ;D

Other family that I have run into on the net all have the same details so I am going to say that I THINK she is the same lady.


My suggestion is that you prove your line and pretend that you've never heard about any other researcher. It has been known for one person to "assume" then everyone copies that information, again "assuming" that it was correct.

Consequence - a lot of family trees are based on fiction and assumptions.

Now - back to dear ole James......

I've found death notices in lots of the newspapers but mainly the Sydney Morning Herald - even for people who were poor as church mice.

Suggest you go through the newspapers and document EVERY reference to any James Murphy in the 1850-1060 era. Note those who are in the west or Bringelly.

If we can find a sighting of your James after 1853, then the Catherine/Walters marriage may have nothing to do with you.

I'll be back later

Di




Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Wednesday 05 May 10 13:21 BST (UK)
I have found where I got John Walters & Catherine marrying - a researcher had posted this info asking for anyone who knew anything on them:

WALTERS, JOHN. Lampton Park, Lachlan River married and CATHARINE
MURPHY of Lachlan River 5 Oct 1853 at Cowra, N.S.W

Children:

Elizabeth b. 12 January 1855, baptised 17 May 1855 by B. Murphy
(Father's name: John WALTERS, mother's name Catherine KELAHER )

Joseph b. 16 Apr 1858, Currawang Creek, father John WATER, age 42,
mother CATHERINE, age 42, formerly SHEAHAN (married 1853 Cowra).
Previous Issue Elizabeth 4.

Death of Joseph 15 July 1859, Moppity Station near Binalong, age 16
months. Father John WALTERS, mother Catherine, formerly KENEHAN late
MURPHY.

The "late" Murphy would confirm they think James is dead.

I haven't got the funds to confirm all of these certificates so have had to trust what I find, if I think it trustworthy.  ( ???)  Some info I have found I have disregarded as it has not gelled with what else I have.

More coming...
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Wednesday 05 May 10 13:26 BST (UK)
This also from the same lady:
Son JOSEPH b. 16 Apr 1858, Father John WATER, Shoemaker, age 42,
birthplace London, date of marriage 1853, place Cowra, Previous issue,
Elizabeth 4, Mother Maiden name: Catherine formerly SHEAN, age 42,
mother's birthplace, NSW, Informant John WALTER, Farmer, Currawang,
signed with his X. Nurse or witness Mrs. Mayo, registered 20 May 1858,
Binalong. Comments X mark.

Son JOSEPH Death Transcription entry: Place of death Moppity Station
near Binalong, occupation -, sex male, age 16 mths, cause of death
convulsions, duration 2 days, medical attendant none, father John
WALTERS, father's occupation settler, Mother maiden name Catherine
formerly KENEHAN late MURPHY, informant Susan McDONNELL, sister,
Burrowa, signed with X, when buried 16 Jul 1859, where Currowang near
Binalong, Undertaker John Martin, Minister none, Witnesses William
Stephens, John Average (probably HARBRIDGE, son in law of JOHN
WATER/WALTERS), where born Moppity Station near Binalong NSW.

Remember Mary (the mother of Catherine) married a Sheehan and Catherine used many names.

Also the first marriage of Catherine's produced Susan, who married a McDonnell. (informant)

Also, Catherine (daughter of James & Catherine) married John Harbridge.

It seems the researcher above was quoting actual documents so i would think she is on the right track.

Mosher
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Wednesday 05 May 10 14:06 BST (UK)
Also, I have tried to contact this researcher but she lives in US and her email address bounced.  She was working in conjunction with the one who got all cagey with "her info".  The posts I had seen from the above lady were all at least 10 years old.  The second researcher (cagey one) got in touch with first one after seeing posts on the net some time back.  Together they erected a plaque for Catherine's grave (with another person also).

This family have so many children (John who I descend thru had 14!) that there are many of us Murphy brats running around.
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Lady Di on Wednesday 05 May 10 14:15 BST (UK)
I wish your original assumption of only two "James Murphy" was correct...

Have you checked through the Colonial Secretary's Papers -there's dozens of James Murphys  ::)
http://colsec.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/colsec/m/F40c_mu-my-05.htm#P2309_71046

(hope that link works!)

Most of them are convicts - which at least gives a starting point

The records for the Walter children certainly appear to confirm that Catherine has now joined forces with Walter/s. The "Late Murphy" doesn't necessarily mean that James is deceased but it certainly looks like Catherine believed that he had died.

I had almost exactly the same situation, in the same area, at the same time, also with a lady called Catherine. My Catherine "married" at least 4 times!! (but never to a Murphy  8) )

I'll try again tomorrow

Di



Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Wednesday 05 May 10 14:59 BST (UK)
Oh yes, I know there are many!  I narrowed it down to the ones on the Lonach as they were stationed at Windsor. ( see the original post)

There are many non-convicts of the same name also.  There is nothing to say "our" James was a convict, just a guess due to the time and his name being Irish (many Irish convicts around then).
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Thursday 06 May 10 00:07 BST (UK)
Lady Di, I think I may have spoken to you on the phone.  Do you have a website for a "heritage" area, and an uncle?
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Lady Di on Thursday 06 May 10 11:54 BST (UK)
Lady Di, I think I may have spoken to you on the phone.  Do you have a website for a "heritage" area, and an uncle?

Sorry Moshe, I think you have the wrong person

Now - back to business...
I've been trying to find something about the two James Murphys from the Lonach. My first thought was that if either of these were your James then they should have only had a sentence of 7 years, certainly no longer. Otherwise they would not have been allowed to "marry" without permission prior to the end of their sentence (or that's the theory anyway!!) I don't have full access to all the convict records, but would suggest that you check the sentences for these and other James Murphy to see if they could have completed their sentence prior to 1834. That should at least rule out some of the extra James Murphy convicts - assuming of course that your James was a convict.  :-\

I'd also suggest that you place a note on the Australian board on RootsChat here -
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,165.0.html
with a link to this thread. The people on the Australian board have greater access to more resources than I have and are more likely to be of assistance

I'm sure by now that you've found where Forbes is in NSW and have found the FHS web site - and hopefully made contact with them. If not, here's the link:
http://home.westserv.net.au/~ffhg/

Have you checked the 1825 Muster? I'd like to think that there is a mention of you guy out west in the Bathurst area. I'm sure the majority of the convicts were kept in and around Sydney Town so one out west should be a bit easier to find.

Sorry I cant be more help but hopefully one of the above suggestions will help in your quest.

Di



Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Thursday 06 May 10 12:48 BST (UK)
Hi Di,

Sorry about that - there was someone whose nick was Lady Di on another site.   :)

Now, James... both on the Lonach were 7 years.

One was from Tipperary, tried in Clonmill for Highway robbery, sentence 7 years. yob 1797, occupation ploughman.

The other also from Tipperary, tried in Waterford for pig stealing (!), sentence 7 years. yob 1794, occupation soldier 31 reg.

I have emailed the Forbes centre but they only check once a week.  I shall wait.  :)

They were transported in 1825 but on the 1828 census, both of them are with William Cox in Windsor.  The soldier one did apply to marry in 1834 and was granted permission (to marry someone else) so I guess he did and that would count him out.

Windsor doesn't seem to be anywhere near Bathurst tho.  They seemed to move to Cowra some time later. 



Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Dundee on Friday 07 May 10 05:32 BST (UK)
Hi Mosher,

Where did Phillip SMITH'S two marriages take place? There was a Phillip SMITH, life, transported on the Hebe who applied twice to be married in NSW. Firstly in 1832 to Catherine HIGGINS, and secondly in 1834 to Ann RUSSELL.  Neither of these marriages appear to have taken place.  I can't see any children either.

Debra
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Friday 07 May 10 06:17 BST (UK)
Hi Debra,

I am at work (oops don't tell!) so don't have my records here.  i will reply again when I get home.  The first marriage you have is to "my" Catherine.  Higgins was one of her mother's marriages and a name she sometimes used.  She used many!  and many spellings too.

From memory the second is the one I also found, not sure if I checked to see if it actually went through. 

I would really love to find which James is "mine".  I think then i could draw a line under that branch of the family.  Trying to track in Ireland in that era is nearly impossible, so I think I would be happy to just know who he was when he was in Australia.

Mosher (Aly)
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Dundee on Friday 07 May 10 07:39 BST (UK)
I was just thinking that if she didn't marry Phillip, then perhaps it was James who had already married in NSW.  Sorry if I missed it somewhere, but do you have an approximate year of birth for James?

Debra
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Friday 07 May 10 11:57 BST (UK)
No I have nothing for James, other than his name.   ???

I don't have the actual marriage for Philip & Catherine, only the permission to marry.  I have had a look for other marriages for James Murphys and found one in 1829, but when I checked the convict records they show the application & permission was in 1839.  Do the BDMs often get mistranscribed?
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: craizi daizi on Friday 07 May 10 12:56 BST (UK)


Not sure if you have looked,   but there are a few reports on a James Murphy ( seemed to be in trouble a bit)  btw 1810 -1840 in Sydney newspapers 

http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home

Daizi
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Friday 07 May 10 13:37 BST (UK)
Yes, I have gone through the papers, but it is knowing which one it is. There was even a bushranger called James Murphy who was killed in 1863 by the person he was going to rob.
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Friday 07 May 10 14:07 BST (UK)
I found this entry in Sept 1851:
DISEASED MEAT.-It is melancholy to contemplate the many fatal results that have arisen from skinning the carcases of diseased animals. No later than Sunday last the remains of an unfortunate individual, who lived in May's Lane, were conveyed to the burial ground, whose death was occasioned by the poisonous effects of handling diseased meat, as we stated in a former number. We have also to deplore the fate of another man, named Murphy, from a similar cause. He was taken ill a few days since, while proceeding up the country, and died at Penrith, leaving a widow and several children to bemoan his untimely end. We understand that a subscription is being made in behalf of the destitute family.-Empire, Aug. 30.

There was a child born Jan 1852 (Lachlan district or Carcoar) & one in Jan 1853 (Cowra).  The child before 1851 was in 1847 in Petersham. 

Would Penrith be on the way from Petersham to Carcoar?  Maybe the last baby is not really James?
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Friday 07 May 10 14:13 BST (UK)
Alas, there are no deaths recorded for a James in 1851.  The only male in 1851 that would be old enough to have several children is a John Murphy.
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Friday 07 May 10 14:15 BST (UK)
Xin, where are you?  I am talking to myself again!  (oh shut up!  No YOU shut up!)
 :P ;D ::)
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Friday 07 May 10 14:30 BST (UK)
Another puzzling news article from 1857 (states to be from the Goulburn papers):

TOUCHING INCIDENT.-A poor woman named Ralston, was committed to gaol a short time ago, as being of unsound mind. She was suckling an infant, and it was deemed imprudent that Bhe should take her baby with her into prison. The child passed into the care of a person known as the Gipsy Queen. There is now temporarily residing, at a cottage on the new line, a person named Murphy, whose wife has also an infant at the breast. 
Mrs. Murphy was sitting on the door step, on Monday evening, when the Gipsy Queen carne up with Mrs Ralston's baby. The Gipsy stated the melancholy history of the unfortunate baby she was nurturing, and asked Mrs. M. to give the " poor little thing a wee drop from the breast." No'sooner had kind hearted Mrs. Murphy taken the infant in her arms than the Gipsy vanished. Murphy, on his return home, was highly indignant at this "little addition to his family" being forced upon him, and yesterday applied to the Bench of Magistrates for redress of this " crying" grievance. His demeanour was so excited that he was ordered into custody, but he was released on the rising of the Court.

Of course Catherine was with John Walter by 1857, but Joseph Walters was born 1858 in Binalong,  a bit further along the road from Goulburn.
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: judb on Friday 07 May 10 15:12 BST (UK)
Not sure if you have this birth which looks as though it should be yours (from NSW BMDs) although Joseph is also listed as born 1858  ??? I could not see a record of the birth of Elizabeth on the BMDs.

1858  Susannah WALTERS, parents John Catherine,   BINALONG   5159

Edit to add - yes, I re-read and see you already have it.  However the reg no for Joseph is 5150  which is not adjacent to Susannah's which would be likely if they were twins.   

Judith
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Saturday 08 May 10 02:31 BST (UK)
Thanks Judith.  I dont know what to make of the Joseph/Susannah scenario.  I would doubt there would be another John & Catherine Walter(s) in Binalong in 1858.  It would have been a small community, but I have been wrong before!   ;)

Would these have been baptism dates?  Maybe if they are twins, Susannah may have been ill on the date that Joseph was baptised so done at a later date?

If they are birth entries, then I guess we don't know.  (?)
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Dundee on Saturday 08 May 10 03:20 BST (UK)
Death of Joseph 15 July 1859, Moppity Station near Binalong, age 16
months. Father John WALTERS, mother Catherine, formerly KENEHAN late
MURPHY.

The "late" Murphy would confirm they think James is dead.

The "late" doesn't refer to the previous husband, it is just the terminolgy used to order a woman's marriages.  "Formerly" is their maiden name, and "late" is the marriage before the current one.  If a woman married three times, it usually says "formerly Smith, next Jones, late Brown".  Of course they didn't always bother going to this trouble which can make it difficult to back track on someone who was a serial wife.

If John and Catherine did not marry, I would be more inclined to think that James was still alive (even though it doesn't look like she married him either!)

Do you have Catherine's death certificate? If not, it should help to sort the children out.

Debra
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: judb on Saturday 08 May 10 03:38 BST (UK)
Hi Mosher

The quotes I have are from the NSW BMDs and are birth registrations.  However they are not always exactly right depending on when the registratin was made for example I have a reg date for a baby for the year after the mother died - I think the death got registered straight away but the birth wasn't registered till a few months later.

I think Dundee is right - perhaps the only course is to order the death certificate.

You pay less and get it quicker if you use a transcription agent.  there are three official ones listed on the NSW BMD site and all of them seem to be very good.  I think it's aobut $17 for a transcript. 

http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/howToSearch.htm (scroll down the page)

Judith



Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Saturday 08 May 10 03:52 BST (UK)
I have ordered some of her children's birth certs and they were just baptism records.  They are listed on the BDMs tho. 

And just to make matters worse, Catherine died in Vic but her death is not registered...  She is buried in Omeo.

I have a death memorial type card for her that is from a descendant who has the original.  This is what it says:

In memoriam of
Catharine Walter
an old and esteemed resident of this district
who departed this life at Omeo
in the 63rd year of her age
on Sunday July 29th AD 1877
Requiescat in pace

Her children had moved to Omeo in the 50's and 60's so I guess she followed.
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: majm on Tuesday 11 May 10 01:36 BST (UK)
Hi there,

Sorry to be late arriving at this scavenger hunt,  I've been a tad busy with family !

Michael – 23 Jan 1852 Lachlan District, NSW (from the initial post)

Not sure if the following info will help, but ...
Remembering
a) Not compulsory to enrol;  b) Property Qualifications required to enrol; c) Only Males eligible to enrol; d) Electoral Roll information collected by Police; e) Forbes District covered a large geographical area, not just the township that was first settled in 1820's;  f) Forbes became a gold rush township in the 1860's; g) The FORBES COURT HOUSE which still exists today was where BDM etc were registered for the larger area, the same register was still being used in the 1950's and 1960's to record bdm as back in 1860's.  That register was accessible in the 1970's, when I obtained an "extract" certificate, but I don't know if it is still accessible today.  My birth and those of my siblings are recorded in that register.  I have not lived in that district for decades, but I may be back visiting the district in October this year. 

NSW Electoral Roll for 1870  for THE BOGAN, and its smaller sub-district known as FORBES Police District.  Other Police districts in THE BOGAN included : Molong, Walgett, Coonamble; Canonbar; Dubbo, Coonabaraban, Bourke, etc and that 1878/9 roll has ONLY 3082 MALES listed.  The electoral roll's geographical area is huge, hundreds and hundreds of square miles of rural NSW. 

MURPHY, Michael, of Forbes, Qualification to enrol : residence: Forbes.


I will try to find time later this evening to look for through that roll, my records are NOT keyword searchable, sorry, but if you could give me a list of surnames, I would appreciate that help !


I have Electoral Rolls for several years upto and including 1903 NSW Roll (the first year that females were included)

Cheers,  JM

Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: majm on Tuesday 11 May 10 02:02 BST (UK)
I have ordered some of her children's birth certs and they were just baptism records.  They are listed on the BDMs tho. 

NSW BDM records for the era before civil registration (ie before 1856) are NOT birth or death records.  They are incomplete, and are based on ECR records E = Early, C = Church and R = Records.  They are  Baptismal and Burial records.  http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/historyofRegistrysRec.htm#EarlyChurchRecords

NSW BDM records from 1856 are NOT complete either, but are more reliable than ECR's.   The following is from online summary, and I note that MANY quarterly returns in the period 1856 - 1914 do not appear on the NSW online index, as they were not necessarily received or actioned by the Registrar General's staff in Sydney promptly (sometimes not received, sometimes received but not legible).   A better source for ECR's would be the NSW State Library, where there are filmed records, often based on the original parish record rather than the quarterly returns.  The parish record often shows more detail for the family (including address, occupation, sponsors etc) than the printed baptismal record issued by NSW BDM. 

Also, if there was an inquest for a death, then often NO death certificate is found, as it was NOT registered .... the minister had the magistrate's inquest findings, so did not need a death certificate to obtain permission to bury.  This practice occurred even in the 1920's ! So don't rely solely on NSW BDM to find death registrations!

 Marriages:  Sometimes these records were not forwarded either...  Sorry for long post, but simply I am trying to say there's many BDM events that were recorded, but records don't exist at NSW BDM.  Newspapers, local parish records, cemetery headstones are often the better options.


Civil Registrations
On 1st March 1856 "An Act for Registering Birth, Deaths and Marriages" came into effect. The Act established a number of District Registrars responsible for the compulsory registration of all births, deaths and marriages occurring in NSW. It was now the responsibility of a parent, in the case of a birth, a Minister, in the case of a marriage, or the owner of a house in which a death occurred to notify the District Registrar of the details so that the event could be registered.

In the early years of civil registration most events were registered following verbal advice from the informant. The widespread use of notification forms did not begin until after World War 1 (1918). District Registrars would then enter the details into bound registers and allocate the registration a unique number. In some Registration Districts these numbers would run sequentially for the whole years, while in other districts a new number series was begun each quarter.

A copy of the registration was made on a loose registration sheet and forwarded to the Sydney Registry at the end of March, June, September and December each year. The Sydney Registry consolidated these returns. They were bound with Sydney registrations first, followed by metropolitan districts and then the country districts in alphabetical order. The consolidated registers were then renumbered starting at 1 and running through the whole year.

Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: majm on Tuesday 11 May 10 02:24 BST (UK)
Some more
1878 Roll THE BOGAN, sub-district Forbes (Police) district

MURPHY as the surname
William, residing at Forbes
James, residing at Parkes
Michael, residing at Forbes
Timothy, residing at Burrawang
William John, residing at London Lead ("Lead" being a clue indicating a mining lead)
Patrick, residing at Parkes

The newspaper around Forbes in the 1870's was FORBES TIMES.  The Electorate was also known as "The Western Goldfields" in that era.

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: majm on Tuesday 11 May 10 02:41 BST (UK)
James Murphy

NSW 1887 Inquests  TWO chaps by that name found at page 7565 of NSW Gov Gazette of 1888 Vol 4.

"A" James Murphy, aged 75, born Ireland, died near Bowning, from effects of injuries accidentially received, leaving currency to value of 30 pounds and a small farm.

"B" James Murphy, aged 46, born Ireland, died near Maitland, accidentially drowned, leaving 50 pounds.

A - most likely this would be NSW BDM reference 13332/1887
B - most likely this would be NSW BDM reference 10150/1887

I will modify this post shortly with any online newspaper references to either A or B  ;)

Edit 1
B http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/18952212  Sad, but no mention of names of his parents

Cheers,  JM





Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: majm on Tuesday 11 May 10 03:06 BST (UK)
James MURPHY at FORBES ;) its an Auriferous Lease

NSW State Records Office, The shrunk url link http://www.rootschat.com/links/08nr/

Fingers crossed that the index helps, as there's a mention of a George Walter Parish associated with that lease.

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Tuesday 11 May 10 03:12 BST (UK)
Wow, thanks JM!  I am at work, but will go through all this tonight and see what I can match up!

We need a dancing smiley!  ;D

Mosher
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Tuesday 11 May 10 03:13 BST (UK)
Some more
1878 Roll THE BOGAN
[

Oh dear... the people at work think this is very funny!!   ;D

Maybe only Aussies will get the joke.  ;)
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: majm on Tuesday 11 May 10 03:36 BST (UK)
I know  ;D,  I have good chuckles whenever I type it up  ;D

On a slightly different tack  ;)

NSW State Records Office  back in 1830's
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?Table=Index+to+Orphan+Schools&Surname=murphy&First=james%25&Page=

Admission to Orphan School
Index to Orphan Schools show admission  on 30 April 1833 a FOUR year old lad named James MURPHY, with mother's name of Catherine Murphy ...   

Cheers,  JM





Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: majm on Tuesday 11 May 10 03:45 BST (UK)
Me again,

When we figure out which James Murphy is yours, perhaps there's a photo !  Umm, but it may be a Gaol photo ... check out the many index references at the NSW State Records office online using keyword search "James Murphy"
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/keyname_search.asp

Also, may I suggest a keyword search for "Catherine Murphy", could be worthwhile, if only to eliminate the July 1832 index for her quarter sessions appearance.  I'll have a quick look at the online newspapers for that appearance and update shortly.
EDIT TO ADD most likely this article would be for Catherine's court appearance!  ;)
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12844919?searchTerm=%22catherine+murphy%22
The Sydney Herald Monday 23 July 1832 ...   Jury could not agree, so Catherine was discharged  ::) but tis an interesting read  ;)  (Among other things, Catherine Murphy was dressed in black ... my thoughts - a widow by July 1832, thus re-marriage possible !)

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Tuesday 11 May 10 03:57 BST (UK)
You have got me thinking - maybe James didn't die around 1853, maybe he was in prison!

There is a death in Yass Goal for a James Murphy, died of disease of the heart, inquest held, Yass Courier 7.2.1879.

Any ideas of where I can find out more of this James?
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: majm on Tuesday 11 May 10 04:03 BST (UK)
I'll think about that 1879 Yass find, I don't know if I have Gazette info for that year, but it's only as far away as a box under my desk here  ;D  8)

But in mean time, I've spotted a JOHN MURPHY in 1870 on the CARCOAR Electoral Roll, that's slightly South east of Forbes, and Carcoar Roll covered Cowra etc:

1870
John MURPHY, residing at Balubula, which was covered by the police district of Cowra...

Cheers,  JM 
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Tuesday 11 May 10 04:04 BST (UK)
I don't know that either of the above 2 references to Catherine Murphy would be "my" Catherine.  She was married to Philip Smith in 1832, so wouldn't have been Catherine Murphy until after getting toegtehr with old Jamesy around 1833/4.  Prior to marrying Smith, her surnames would have been either Callaghan/er, Kelliher/Kelleher/Killeher/Killiher, Higgins or Sheehan.

Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Tuesday 11 May 10 04:07 BST (UK)
Wow, a mug shot!  LOL!  Oh well, depending on what he had done, maybe I will claim him.   ;D

The son John was in Victorian highlands from 1850's so unless that John is a different relation, then maybe a different family.  There were so many Murphys it's not funny!  Altho one son was born in Carcoar.  I have wondered if James had family here.  maybe so???
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: majm on Tuesday 11 May 10 04:31 BST (UK)
Hi there,

Can't help with the 1879 Yass inquest, sorry...

But ... back to Forbes, and a James Murphy...  There's one who was the Publican for the Criterion Hotel in Lachlan Street, but that's the Gazette of 1880, Pt.3  page 4835 ... so I'm still not sure if I'm helping or diverting your hunt  ;)  (Forbes had around 28 pubs in the 1870's ... as per my recollection of social studies, primary school lessons) ...

I'm not finding any WALTERS around in that neck of the woods (along the Lachlan rather than the Bogan  :P ) in the 1870's or later... so they may have gone to Vic in the 1860's ... Gold Fever was a great motivator  ;D

Cheers,  JM. 
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Tuesday 11 May 10 06:05 BST (UK)
Thanks for your help JM!

Most, if not all, of this family were in Victoria (Omeo area) by the 1870's starting with John in the 1850's.  I presume he followed his half uncles as the Sheehans and Higgins were already there. 

I am assuming James was born either late 1700's or up to 1810, so i don't think he would doing much (if he is still alive) in the 1870's and 1880's.

I just keep thinking, if Catherine stuck with him for nearly 20 years, he must have been a reasonable provider.  Of course he may have been a wife beater, who knows?  But my first thought it, is she "married" John Walters in 1853, then James must have been gone for some reason.  Dead?  locked up?  missing?  There must be some clue around 1853 why she skipped from James' bed to John's!

He is the thorn in my side I just can't let go! ???
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: majm on Tuesday 11 May 10 06:37 BST (UK)
Back to 1830's and Catherine's marriage to Philip Smith

Where do you find that marriage info? I'm interested as I have a particular marriage mentioned in two court cases as occuring in Sydney in 1832, by RC rites, but its not found on the NSW BDM online index.

I'm also thinking about the orphanage admission for the four year old where the mother's name was cited as Catherine Murphy, and I have not found his baptism online either.  As the child was admitted under the surname MURPHY then it is likely that the recording clerk would have asked for the name of his mother, and after being informed it was Catherine, he would presume her surname was Murphy.  If she was not literate, she would not know what had been recorded  :-X

Admission to Orphan School
Index to Orphan Schools show admission on 30 April 1833 a FOUR year old lad named James MURPHY, with mother's name of Catherine Murphy ...

 I am aware of many/most RC baptisms for St Marys (Cathedral) for that period are not found at NSW BDM  ;) as the Rev was in dispute with government administrators re the payment of fees DUE TO HIM for forwarding the info to them. Government Orders dating from 1810 required all clergy to forward quarterly returns to St Philips C of E, but many did not as they were not paid to "transmit" their records but were expected to bare the costs of preparing and forwarding the returns.  No RC marriages at St Marys Cathedral for 1832 found online, but I found some at State Library back in the 1980's, so I presume they still hold those records. 

Cheers,  JM

Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Tephra on Tuesday 11 May 10 10:50 BST (UK)



It's time for this weeks Scavenger Hunt and here it is.   Have fun.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,455602.0.html

Good Luck and Good Hunting

Barbara

As usual, this Hunt will remain open for any further information which may come in.
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Tuesday 11 May 10 11:31 BST (UK)
This looks interesting - wrong year but the wife and children fit:

An inquest was held in Melbourne, on the 8th inst., also before Dr Youl, on the body of a man named James Murphy, who was accidentally struck by a cart in Elizabeth-Street, on the previous day, and died from the injuries thereby received. Deceased was in a state of drunkenness and was running along Elizabeth street, near the Cattle-yards, at about seven o'clock in tho evening, when he came against the cart and was knocked down, the cart leaving him where he was. He described the occurrence as owing entirely to himself after he had been found by a policeman, and removed to the City Arms Hotel. Deceased has left a wife and seven children. The jury returned a verdict in accordance with the evidence.

The Argus, Wednesday 12 August 1857
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Tuesday 11 May 10 11:39 BST (UK)
Back to 1830's and Catherine's marriage to Philip Smith

Where do you find that marriage info? I'm interested as I have a particular marriage mentioned in two court cases as occuring in Sydney in 1832, by RC rites, but its not found on the NSW BDM online index.



All I have for this is the request to marry for Philip Smith.  Permission granted on 29 Nov 1832 to marry Cathe Higgins.  Catherine is listed as came free and age 17, Philip, age 31, came on the Hebe for life but with ToL.  Rev Joseph Booker (?) at Windsor.

I can't find the actual BDM but the info suggests it was actually legalised.
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: majm on Tuesday 11 May 10 12:00 BST (UK)
Hi there,

OK, so Philip Smith was ex HEBE, and thus needed to obtain permission to marry. That's him in 1828 at Windsor, in the No. 24 Town Gang.

I have a list of clergy for around that era, so I'll try to figure out the Rev's name and the place, to hopefully figure out which denomination, and from there the exact church.  Reason : to establish that the marriage ceremony was conducted.  That should then help confirm a reason for no record of a marriage for James Murphy to Catherine, remembering that divorce was extremely unlikely and that you also have Philip marrying someone else in 1834. 

I also know that just because permission was granted, that marriage did not automatically follow.

I hope I'm not sidetracking you, but I'm trying to find a backdoor way to James Murphy !  ;)

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: majm on Tuesday 11 May 10 12:05 BST (UK)
 ;D
Rev Joseph DOCKER, C of E  ;) at Windsor  ;D in the 1830's  ;D

JM
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Tuesday 11 May 10 12:16 BST (UK)
So does that mean the marriage did take place?  or should I contact the C of E church at Windsor for records?

This is the minister listed for Philip's second request. There are 2 listings for it, both say granted and are 1 week apart.  (??)
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: majm on Tuesday 11 May 10 12:27 BST (UK)
Hi,

On the same set of records for Philip Smith's permission to marry, but a couple of images earlier, there's a William Davies permission to marry a Mary Lyhane at Windsor, permission granted 26th Oct 1832, clergyman Rev C V Dowling.  When you look at NSW BDM that has not been indexed. Perhaps it was because Rev Dowling was RC.  (I'm actually trying to find Rev Docker being mentioned for any other convict marriage apart from Philip Smith  ::) and not succeeding, was hoping to find Rev Docker marrying another couple so I could then find the ECR online and match up the church, but I will guess "St Mathews, Windsor, C of E" (ECR code of CC) and will phone a friend who may have index for marriages there.  (Yes of course, I will ask if James Murphy listed  ;D, fingers crossed - but I've looked at the clock, so I will phone tomorrow to ask as its nearly 9:30 pm)

JM
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: majm on Tuesday 11 May 10 12:29 BST (UK)
So does that mean the marriage did take place? or should I contact the C of E church at Windsor for records?

This is the minister listed for Philip's second request. There are 2 listings for it, both say granted and are 1 week apart. (??)

I'm not sure ... I think it means that Philip was given permission to marry, but I don't know that the marriage actually took place.   Back in a tick and will modify with more, have to check a reference book to see if there's a detailed explanation.

EDIT  Rev Henry Tarleton STYLES C of E .   Also several C of E churches in the Windsor District (second settled district in NSW, district covered large area in 1830's)

Reference book just notes that "About two thirds of the convicts who were granted permission to marry, actually married their nominated partner"


JM
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Tuesday 11 May 10 12:39 BST (UK)
Thanks JM!

I will wait to hear more.   :D

Mosher
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: majm on Tuesday 11 May 10 12:43 BST (UK)
http://www.hawkesbury.net.au/

There's indexes to various records, perhaps you may find clues this evening, my friend is a member of the Hawkesbury Family History Group.

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: majm on Tuesday 11 May 10 12:56 BST (UK)
At that link
http://www.hawkesbury.net.au/lists/1846HBSDonations.html

Hawkesbury Benevolent Society List of Donations 1846 among the donors there's a Philip SMITH, but none surnamed Murphy. 

Catch up tomorrow.  I'm in NSW, where are you?

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: majm on Tuesday 11 May 10 13:10 BST (UK)
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/7136735?searchTerm=%22james+murphy%22

Funeral for the James Murphy, of Keilor Plains, mentions City Arms, and moved from there to "New Cemetery, Melbourne"  I'm not familar with Victoria's records, but google shows Keilor Plains is part of St Albans.   I could not find an In Memoriam for him in Aug 1858.
8 August 1857 The Argus

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Tuesday 11 May 10 13:15 BST (UK)
I am in Perth so have a few more hours yet.  But please feel free to go to bed at some stage. ;D

Checked St Matthews at Windsor but no go.  You know, I am sure they thought ahead and were screwing with our heads when they decided to have an RC St Matthews and a CofE St Matthews in the same area...

I will see what I can find for Vic cemeteries.  Thanks JM!

Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Tuesday 11 May 10 13:37 BST (UK)
Looks like another dead end.  Keilor Plains is nowhere near where his family were, so I would doubt that one was him.   :(  (we also need a foot stomping smiley)

I did try to search the New Melbourne Cemetery but it appears you can't.
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: majm on Wednesday 12 May 10 02:11 BST (UK)
Hi there,

Re Rev Joseph Docker

http://adbonline.anu.edu.au/biogs/A010297b.htm

He was the Rector at St Mathews C of E Windsor from June 1829 to March 1833.  This would support the notion that Philip Smith's permission to marry Cathe Higgins (granted Nov 1832)  should have been celebrated at St Mathews, and thus should be recorded in the registry held there.    As an aside, according to that biographical link, he and his family moved from the Hawkesbury District to Bontharambo which I think would be near Wangaratta in Victoria  ;D in the late 1830's. 

I have phoned my friend and left a message on her machine.

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: majm on Wednesday 12 May 10 02:14 BST (UK)
Also,

Have you considered posting a specific request on the Aus Board, looking for information about the New Cemetery, Melbourne and the August 1857 death of James Murphy.  Perhaps there's a headstone transcription for him, or at least a clue as to his wife and seven children  ;) It would at least confirm or eliminate one possible sighting  ::) .

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Wednesday 12 May 10 06:07 BST (UK)
Hi JM,
Just posted on the Aus board as you suggested.  It is worth investiagting!  If all esle fails, i am hoping to get to Vic at some stage in the next few months, so may have to make a trip there.

Mosher
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: majm on Wednesday 12 May 10 06:45 BST (UK)
fingers crossed that some of the Rchatters with experience for Vic records can help re James Murphy.

Re Catherine and her origins, (I'm not finding anything on James, and not heard back from my friend re St Mathews records).

There were 11 children accompanying the 89 women on that voyage of the Canada, and I haven't found any of their names, but it must have been a troubled voyage as their rations were subject to an enquiry that is listed on the Col Sec's Index.  They ceased receiving beef rations 6 April and had left Ireland only days earlier  BUT the Captain had UN-USED beef rations as at 11 August and sort to dispose of these as at 25 Sept 1817. 

I'm Still looking for James  ;)

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Wednesday 12 May 10 11:06 BST (UK)
Yes, JM, that's right.  In fact Catherine's mother is listed on colsec (under the name Callagher):

CALLAGHER, Mary. Per "Canada", 1817

1818 Feb 10

Received payment in lieu of beef due on voyage per "Canada"; arrived with one child (Reel 6047; 4/1741 pp.234-6)

I think this is the first mention of her child.
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: majm on Wednesday 12 May 10 13:32 BST (UK)
Hi there,

I'm still looking  ;)

On a submitted tree on Ancestry the submitter has indicated that in 1841 James and Catherine Murphy (nee Callaghan) and family were found on the census in the Petersham district of NSW (Blackwattle Swamp).  I'm actually not sure that this would be your James and Catherine as that 1841 census document shows all 6 members of the household arrived free, with none born in the colony.  ::)

Also I think in 1841 there would have been 5 rather than 6 in the Murphy household. The submitter lists the children (seems to be similar to your list) :
John 1834-1892; Catherine 1835-1836; Catherine 1837 - ? ; Bridget 1841-1920; Margaret 1843 - ? ; Anastastia 1847 - ? ; Michael 1852 - ? ; James 1853 - ?

Perhaps I'm miss reading the image  ;) but have you contacted the submitter, perhaps there's a new contact  ;D 

Cheers,  JM
 
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Wednesday 12 May 10 13:42 BST (UK)
Hi JM,

That might be mine!  ;D  I was using Ancestry for my tree as well as for research but someone warned me off them as anything you put up there becomes their property.   I wasn't happy with that so stopped adding to it.  I haven't updated it for ages so it will be from when i first started and likely full of errors.  I keep it as sometimes it is easier to have a spot to start searching from. 

I don't think that census is them.  I think I thought it may be as one child was born in Petersham.  But as I said it was a long time back in my searching.

I probably should take it down to stop anyone fouling their tree, but really if gthey are silly enough to copy it without checking, then more fool them.  :P

Mosher
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: majm on Wednesday 12 May 10 13:50 BST (UK)
Agh, tis fine, leave it there, you never know, someone may pop along one day and have the answers about James  ;D and get in contact with you.  I agree, if they are silly enough to copy without making contact then more fool them  ;)
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: regross on Saturday 15 May 10 03:41 BST (UK)
Hi,

 As you noted you can't research the MElboure cemetery but  your local Family history Association may have a cd/book of the index to headstones.

I had a n ancestor interred there but with no headstone. I contactede them with then date and details from the death certificate and now know where she is buried in her unmarked grave.

http://necropolis.net.au/melbournegeneral/necropolis-websites.html


The new Melbourne Cemetery is incorporated in the Melbourne General cemetery in teh above link

It might be worth giving it ago.

Robyn
Title: !
Post by: mosher on Saturday 15 May 10 03:52 BST (UK)
Thanks Robyn!  You know it never fails to astound me how generous some people are with information on genealogy, and then others (admittedly the minority) I have come across treat it like their own personal info, available to no-one else... Sigh.

Anyway, I digress!  Thank you for the update on info for New Melb Cemetery.   :)  We have discounted that James with info supplied on his death (I had another thread on this specifically on the Aussie board).

So whilst I haven't found "my" James yet, it has been fun to delve in anyway.

Thanks to all contributors in this hunt!

The very grateful Mosher.
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Sunday 16 May 10 04:25 BST (UK)
Hi Just Moi,

I wonder if you could have a look for me at your list of clergy.  I have been looking at others in my "tree" and there are at least 2 that I have a burial record for but there is no record on NSW BDM.

James' last child (also James) was born 1853 and his baptism says it was in Parish of Carcoar, in the county of Erroll, NSW.  The ceremony was performed by Rev B Murphy, Roman Catholic.

I have searched for both the church in Carcoar (there seems to be many different sections to Carcoar unless I am reading it wrong) and Rev B Murphy, for him I only have found he was in Carcoar for 10 years from 1853.

I am wondering if James Snr may be buried at the same place.  Young James was born Jan 1853,  and Catharine married John Walter in Oct 1853 in Cowra.  I did find the certificate for Cath & John so they def did marry in RC church by Henry Gregory Gregory (??) Vicar General of NSW.

Now I am thinking (bear with me!) that if I can find the cemeteries used in the 1850's for that area, I may be able to check if he was buried anywhere there.

Can you please check what church Rev B Murphy was in the priest for?  It will help if I have a name, as I am a but uncertain after searching the area.

I think I am rambling a bit, sorry.   ??? ;D

TIA
Mosher
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: majm on Saturday 22 May 10 03:47 BST (UK)
Hi Mosher,

OH and I have been away, and I've been without access to my PC, so I'm sorry I didn't reply earlier.  Re Rev B Murphy ...  I cannot find him, but I can find a Rev Francis MURPHY, and he was RC, so perhaps that "B" was "F".   I'll try to locate a parish for Francis  ;D

Could be the following are relevant, but you will need to check the dates as this chap was in Sth Australia by the mid 1840's :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Murphy_(Australian_cleric)
http://adbonline.anu.edu.au/biogs/A020236b.htm (includes mention of Gregory  ;) )

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Saturday 22 May 10 04:25 BST (UK)
Hi JM!

No he is def B Murphy - in fact it is Bernard.  I found this info:
Father Bernard Murphy was based in Carcoar  for ten years from 1853 and became widely  known as “the Parish Priest of the Lachlan” as a result of his extensive travel in the district.
on http://www.frankmurray.com.au/?page_id=743
and he is listed as clergy in Carcoar on http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-PusNumb-t1-g1-t2-body-d1-d4.html but I can't really see when that represents.

Mosher
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Tuesday 15 June 10 12:05 BST (UK)
Hi all,

I am off early tomorrow for a Murphy family reunion in the town they settled in (Benambra).  I am hoping I might get some stories, altho info on James may be hoping for too much. 

A local historian, Max Dyer, is launching his new book at our little "do" so we should all have a great time.

Catherine did settle (and die) in the same area, so you never know!

Fingers crossed.   ;D

Mosher
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: attunga11 on Tuesday 11 July 17 00:42 BST (UK)
Hi,
I have just come across one of your roots chat scavenger hunts from May 2010, regarding a very elusive James Murphy, the opening information has listed the children of James Murphy and Catherine Kelleher aka Callagher, Callaghan, Higgins, Sheehan, Smith and Walker, my great great grandfather Philip 1837-1877 has been left off that list. I was wondering if there has been any more information on James as I have joined the queue in trying to find out who he was, including one who arrived on the Andromeda 2 in 1830. Regards
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: RyanMurphy on Monday 05 October 20 15:58 BST (UK)
Hi all,

Sorry to bump an old thread like this, but I am also trying to obtain information on my GGGGF James Murphy, the partner of Catherine Higgins/Shean/Callagher/Smith

I’m kind of reverse searching his parents to work out who he was.

I have noticed on Ancestry that he possibly had the parents “Tim Murphy” and “Ellen Sullivan”. This didn’t excite me too much, however on the crappy NSW BDM’s cert I got for their son John Murphy it listed a “sponsor/Godparent” as Ellen Murphy which is presumably Ellen Sullivan. I’m hoping I’ll have better luck find something on his parents.

If anyone has additional information after all this time, I’d love for someone to flick me an message to discuss.

Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Maiden Stone on Tuesday 06 October 20 15:18 BST (UK)

I have noticed on Ancestry that he possibly had the parents “Tim Murphy” and “Ellen Sullivan”. This didn’t excite me too much, however on the crappy NSW BDM’s cert I got for their son John Murphy it listed a “sponsor/Godparent” as Ellen Murphy which is presumably Ellen Sullivan. I’m hoping I’ll have better luck find something on his parents.

The Ellen Murphy who was John's sponsor would have been a different Ellen Murphy to the one who was his mother. Parents can't be godparents. Siblings can and were godparents in big families so the possibility that Ellen was an elder sister should be kept in mind. Choice of godparents may have been influenced by who was available.   
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: RyanMurphy on Tuesday 06 October 20 21:54 BST (UK)

I have noticed on Ancestry that he possibly had the parents “Tim Murphy” and “Ellen Sullivan”. This didn’t excite me too much, however on the crappy NSW BDM’s cert I got for their son John Murphy it listed a “sponsor/Godparent” as Ellen Murphy which is presumably Ellen Sullivan. I’m hoping I’ll have better luck find something on his parents.

The Ellen Murphy who was John's sponsor would have been a different Ellen Murphy to the one who was his mother. Parents can't be godparents. Siblings can and were godparents in big families so the possibility that Ellen was an elder sister should be kept in mind. Choice of godparents may have been influenced by who was available.   

Thank you! Annoying that it isn’t his mum, but good that this info could open up some more things for me to research.
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: attunga11 on Wednesday 07 October 20 05:29 BST (UK)
Hi,
I have a copy of the original transcript of that James Murphy’s baptism, dated 14th October, 1816. It says the parents are Tim Murphy and Ellen Sullivan, and the sponsors are Denis Murphy and Mary Cotter.  Because of the date 1816 I thought this might be the James Murphy who arrived age 14 on the Andromeda in 1830, not one of the two who arrived on the Lonarch. 
Ellen Murphy the sponsor for their son John could be a relative, there are a few Ellen Murphy’s on the convict lists, maybe she followed in her brothers footsteps
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: RyanMurphy on Wednesday 07 October 20 07:20 BST (UK)
Hi,
I have a copy of the original transcript of that James Murphy’s baptism, dated 14th October, 1816. It says the parents are Tim Murphy and Ellen Sullivan, and the sponsors are Denis Murphy and Mary Cotter.  Because of the date 1816 I thought this might be the James Murphy who arrived age 14 on the Andromeda in 1830, not one of the two who arrived on the Lonarch. 
Ellen Murphy the sponsor for their son John could be a relative, there are a few Ellen Murphy’s on the convict lists, maybe she followed in her brothers footsteps

Thanks, Attunga. I have that transcript as well and have been attempting to find Tim & Ellen somewhere to try to track James but haven’t found anything yet.

The 1816 born James Murphy seems to be the most popular answer for the father of John, but I wish I could find something more ironclad. I want to get ahold of birth certificates for his children but it seems only baptism records are available.
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: attunga11 on Thursday 08 October 20 06:12 BST (UK)
Hi again,
I have been going through my paperwork and found the certificate of freedom for James Murphy I got from the NSW state archives. It is for the the James born 1816, it states he was born in Bardon (I think this should read Bandon) County Cork. You might already have this too, not sure if this will assist you with tracing his parents, maybe there are church records for that parish, Irish records are not easy to locate
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: RyanMurphy on Thursday 08 October 20 06:25 BST (UK)
Hi again,
I have been going through my paperwork and found the certificate of freedom for James Murphy I got from the NSW state archives. It is for the the James born 1816, it states he was born in Bardon (I think this should read Bandon) County Cork. You might already have this too, not sure if this will assist you with tracing his parents, maybe there are church records for that parish, Irish records are not easy to locate

Hi Attunga, that’s very interesting, I haven’t seen this certificate of freedom. If I PM’ed you my email address would you be kind enough to flick me a copy of this?
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: majm on Thursday 08 October 20 07:12 BST (UK)
Deleted.  Wrong detail.

JM
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Thursday 08 October 20 07:42 BST (UK)
Hi all and thanks for resurrecting the thread!  I haven't looked for old James for a while but am wondering what makes you think he is the young fellow from the Andromeda?
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: attunga11 on Thursday 08 October 20 07:51 BST (UK)
I need my daughter to help me do this,  she will be home in a couple of hours and I will send it to you
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: mosher on Thursday 08 October 20 08:13 BST (UK)
Ok I've just had a look on Ancestry and it seems every tree has his birth year of 1816. I'd recommend you don't trust any trees that don't have sources that are accurate! I took my tree private many years ago as when I started I used to believe other trees and use that info and it was alllll wrong. To stop people copying mine, I made it private. I don't update that tree any more for other reasons.

But unless there is a good reason to think it was the boy from the Andromeda, I'd think it's probably not. If he arrived in 1831, I don't think he'd be in a position to be procreating with a free settler in 1833 (John born July 1834).
Title: Re: Moshers Scavenger Hunt...Everyone Welcome To Join In
Post by: Maiden Stone on Thursday 08 October 20 13:24 BST (UK)
Hi,
I have a copy of the original transcript of that James Murphy’s baptism, dated 14th October, 1816. It says the parents are Tim Murphy and Ellen Sullivan, and the sponsors are Denis Murphy and Mary Cotter.  Because of the date 1816 I thought this might be the James Murphy who arrived age 14 on the Andromeda in 1830, not one of the two who arrived on the Lonarch. 
Ellen Murphy the sponsor for their son John could be a relative, there are a few Ellen Murphy’s on the convict lists, maybe she followed in her brothers footsteps
Which church was the baptism at?