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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: kr236rk on Monday 10 May 10 21:39 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I have the beginnings of a London / Middlesex / Hampstead POWELL family tree and wondered if there were any branches out there please? Other possibly related family names are HOBBS and TOOMY [or TOOMEY]. There are several females associated with the laundry trade and males whose profession is 'Horse Keeper'.
Thomas POWELL b.c? mar Charlotte (surname?) b.c. 1801
Henry b.c. 1829
Charlotte b.c. 1835
Emma b.c. 1837
Louisa b.c. 1841
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Louisa POWELL mar/unmar? George HUNT (?) b.c 1832
Louisa Mary b.c. 1859
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John INNELL b.c. 1860 mar [1883] Louisa Mary POWELL ...
~ and thus begins INNELL line.
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Any help greatly appreciated!
Many thanks,
Ric
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Hi Ric
This looks like it's your Louisa...
St John at Hampstead Camden
January 10th 1841
POWELL Louisa daughter of Thomas POWELL Ostler and his wife Charlotte, Hampstead.
Unfortunately it does not give an exact birth date for her.
St Paul Hounslow Heath Hounslow
22nd January 1837
POWELL Emma daughter of Thomas POWELL Horse Keeper and his wife Charlotte, Hounslow.
Again no birth date.
Not seeing Henry or Charlotte yet
Cheers
Karenlee
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Hi Ric
This looks like it's your Louisa...
St John at Hampstead Camden
January 10th 1841
POWELL Louisa daughter of Thomas POWELL Ostler and his wife Charlotte, Hampstead.
Unfortunately it does not give an exact birth date for her.
St Paul Hounslow Heath Hounslow
22nd January 1837
POWELL Emma daughter of Thomas POWELL Horse Keeper and his wife Charlotte, Hounslow.
Again no birth date.
Not seeing Henry or Charlotte yet
Cheers
Karenlee
Oh brilliant!!
There is also a John TOOMY (b.c. 1827) listed as 'Horse Keeper' on the 1861 Census for Christ Church, Hampstead. Under his roof at this time were Louisa POWELL (19yrs old) and her child Louisa Mary POWELL (1). Louisa POWELL is listed as 'Sister-in-law', further suggesting that these families were interconnected by marriage as well as occupation. Parallel is a Joseph HOBBS (coachman) who has a Louisa POWELL (22 / b.c. 1859) staying with his family at this 1881 Census for Saint Johns, Hampstead. This must surely be the Louisa Mary POWELL (same birth year) who marries John INNELL two years later; the INNELLs also associated with horses through the family business of varnishing coaches.
Many question and exclamation marks!
Great thanks :)
Ric
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Sounds very much like your Louisa and her daughter Louisa Mary in 1861.
There is a marriage for a Mary Elizabeth POWELL and a John Edward TOOMES in 1862 Pancras Middlesex. If the family runs true to form then that could well be your ones from 1861....
St Pancras Parish Church Camden
November 26th 1862
TOOMES John Edward Of full age Coachman Park Street Father John Edward TOOMES Dead
POWELL Mary Elizabeth Of full age Park Street Father Thomas POWELL Dead
Witnesses were Robert STONE and M BUET??DGE
Louisa's father was Thomas...
Karenlee
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I did see this earlier but discounted it because of father's occupation, but....
St Mary the Virgin Norwood Green Ealing
January 15th 1832
POWELL Mary Elizabeth daughter of Thomas POWELL Labourer and his wife Charlotte, Southett??
St John at Hampstead Camden
February 29th 1824
POWELL Sarah daughter of Thomas and Charlotte POWELL, Servant, Hampstead. Born February 2nd 1824.
Karenlee
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This is definately your Emma... look at the witnesses...
St Pancras Parish Church Camden
December 2oth 1857
WICKS William Of full age Bachelor Labourer James Street Jeremiah WICKS Labourer
POWELL Emma Of full age Spinster Thomas POWELL Dead
Witnesses were Mary POWELL and John TOOMES
Karenlee
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Possible death for Charlotte
St John at Hampstead Camden
October 14th 1871
POWELL Charlotte of Hampstead died October 7th 1871 aged 71 years.
Karenlee
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Very faint and hard to read....
1841 Census England Middlesex St John Hampstead
HO107/674/15/24
POWELL
Thomas 42 Labourer Not born in County
Charlotte 38 Born in County
Elizabeth 19 Born in County
Sarah 17 Born in County
Henry 15 Born in County
Ann 12 Born in County
Mary 16 Born in County
Charlotte 7 Born in County
Emma 4 Born in County
Louisa 6mths Born in County
Cheers
Karenlee
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1851 Census England Middlesex Hampstead
HO107/1492/114/15
Flash Walk
POWELL
Charlotte Head Wid 50 Washerwoman Middlesex Hampstead
Henry Son Unmarr 22 Labourer Middlesex Hampstead
Charlotte Dau Unmarr 16 Servant Middlesex Hampstead
Emma Dau Unmarr 14 Middlesex Hounslow
Louisa Dau Unmarr 10 Middlesex Hampstead
Eliza Dau Unmarr 6 Middlesex Hampstead
In 1861 it is just Charlotte and daughter Eliza at home in Hampstead.
This is good...
1871 Census England Middlesex Hampstead St John
RG10/190/50/50
3 Brewhouse Lane
BURTON
Samuel Head Marr 30 Labourer in Ground Work? Middlesex Hampstead
Eliza Wife Marr 26 Middlesex Hampstead
Thomas H Son Unmarr 7 Scholar Middlesex Hampstead
Eliza Dau Unmarr 5 Scholar Middlesex Hampstead
Samuel Son Unmarr 3 Middlesex Hampstead
Henry Son Unmarr 6mths Middlesex Hampstead
Charlotte POWEL Mother in law Wid 71 Formerly Laundress Middlesex Hampstead
Cheers
Karenlee
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St Pancras Parish Church Camden
July 9th 1865
BURTON Samuel Of Full Age Bachelor Labourer Haverstock Place Henry BURTON Dead
POWELL Eliza Of Full Age Spinster Haverstock Place Thomas POWELL Dead
Witnesses were Joseph FAULKNER and Lucina ILIFF?
Karenlee
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Not seeing Henry POWELL on Census after 1851 so wonder if this is him...
St John at Hampstead Camden Burials
May 17th 1854
POWELL Henry of Hampstead aged 23 Years died May 15th 1854
Karenlee
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Not sure if you already have this but interesting to see that Mary Elizabeth signed herself TOOMES but didn't marry John Edward TOOMES until the next year....
St Pancras Parish Church Camden
April 8th 1861
BENWELL George Of Full Age Bachelor Labourer James Street Camden Town John BENWELL Dead
POWELL Louise Of Full Age Spinster James Street Camden Town Thomas POWELL Dead
Witnesses John Edward TOOMES and Mary Elizabeth TOOMES
St Pancras Parish Church Camden
September 20th 1851
TACK William Of Full Age Bachelor Labourer Park Street Thomas TACK Dead
POWELL Ann Of Full Age Spinster Park Street Thomas POWELL Dead
Witnesses were James TILBY and Sarah TILBY
So therefore it is possible that this is yours too...
St John Hampstead Camden
December 29th 1845
TILBY James Of Full Age Bachelor Groom Hampstead James TILBY Groom
POWELL Sarah Of Full Age Spinster Hampstead Thomas POWELL Groom
Witnesses were Mary Elizabeth HILLS and J J TENMAN Parish Clerk
Karenlee
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POWELL Mary Elizabeth daughter of Thomas POWELL Labourer and his wife Charlotte, Southett??
aha!
Thanks Karenlee :)
as I suspected ~ the TOOMY's and the POWELL's were related!
Ric
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Not having much luck with either Elizabeth or Charlotte sorry
Karenlee
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[quote author=kr236rk link=topic=455519.msg3168639#msg3168639
TParallel is a Joseph HOBBS (coachman) who has a Louisa POWELL (22 / b.c. 1859) staying with his family at this 1881 Census for Saint Johns, Hampstead. This must surely be the Louisa Mary POWELL (same birth year) who marries John INNELL two years later; the INNELLs also associated with horses through the family business of varnishing coaches.
Many question and exclamation marks!
Great thanks :)
Ric
[/quote]
Ric
Having looked at the 1881 entry for Louisa Octavia POWELL and done some backtracking through earlier Census, I think that you can discount any connection with the HOBBS family. Louisa POWELL is the daughter of Joseph and Elizabeth HOBBS born 1859 in Hampstead. She married a Joseph Thomas M POWELL ...
Sorry
Karenlee
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Not having much luck with either Elizabeth or Charlotte sorry
Karenlee
Charlotte POWELL's daughter Charlotte?
She is born circa 1835 (1851 Census) at Flask Walk, Hampstead and an 'Eliza' born circa 1845 (1861 Census). Flask Walk is still there it seems.
Oops! I am wrong about 'Toomy' - you are correct - it is TOOMES
No wonder I couldn't find Mary Elizabeth POWELL (spouse) :-o
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[quote author=kr236rk link=topic=455519.msg3168639#msg3168639
Parallel is a Joseph HOBBS (coachman) who has a Louisa POWELL (22 / b.c. 1859) staying with his family at this 1881 Census for Saint Johns, Hampstead. This must surely be the Louisa Mary POWELL (same birth year) who marries John INNELL two years later; the INNELLs also associated with horses through the family business of varnishing coaches.
Many question and exclamation marks!
Great thanks :)
R
...................................................................................................................................................................................
Ric
Having looked at the 1881 entry for Louisa Octavia POWELL and done some backtracking through earlier Census, I think that you can discount any connection with the HOBBS family. Louisa POWELL is the daughter of Joseph and Elizabeth HOBBS born 1859 in Hampstead. She married a Joseph Thomas M POWELL ...
Sorry
Karenlee
Wow, that's a huge coincidence with the two birth dates matching up and all! :-o
Thanks / no worries ~ great help in thinning out the references :)
Ric[/quote]
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Not finding a marriage for either Charlotte or Elizabeth daughters of Thomas and Charlotte POWELL.
This looks like the best match so far for a marriage for Thomas and Charlotte.... so it might be the one you are after....
St George Hanover Square Westminster
Thomas POWELL of this Parish and Charlotte MARLES of this Parish were married in this Church by Banns this 13th day of March 1821 by James Glen Curate. Thomas POWELL made his mark and Charlotte MARLES signed her name. Witnesses were Thomas BRIGHTWELL and Mary Ann HARMSWORTH who married on the same day and were the entry above Thomas and Charlotte.
The only way that you will know for sure what Charlotte's maiden name was is to buy a Birth Certificate for one of the children born post 1838.
Karenlee
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I did see this earlier but discounted it because of father's occupation, but....
St Mary the Virgin Norwood Green Ealing
January 15th 1832
POWELL Mary Elizabeth daughter of Thomas POWELL Labourer and his wife Charlotte, Southett??
This is the marriage date please?
St John at Hampstead Camden
February 29th 1824
POWELL Sarah daughter of Thomas and Charlotte POWELL, Servant, Hampstead. Born February 2nd 1824.
Karenlee
Sarah's date of birth? I think I am confused here because it is earlier than the marriage date?
Thanks,
Ric
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I did see this earlier but discounted it because of father's occupation, but....
St Mary the Virgin Norwood Green Ealing
January 15th 1832
POWELL Mary Elizabeth daughter of Thomas POWELL Labourer and his wife Charlotte, Southett??
This is the marriage date please?
St John at Hampstead Camden
February 29th 1824
POWELL Sarah daughter of Thomas and Charlotte POWELL, Servant, Hampstead. Born February 2nd 1824.
Karenlee
Sarah's date of birth? I think I am confused here because it is earlier than the marriage date?
Thanks,
Ric
They are both baptism records sorry Ric... should have noted that ....
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Very faint and hard to read....
1841 Census England Middlesex St John Hampstead
HO107/674/15/24
POWELL
Thomas 42 Labourer Not born in County
Charlotte 38 Born in County
Elizabeth 19 Born in County
Sarah 17 Born in County
Henry 15 Born in County
Ann 12 Born in County
Mary 16 Born in County
Charlotte 7 Born in County
Emma 4 Born in County
Louisa 6mths Born in County
Cheers
Karenlee
Elizabeth was a new one to me - thanks - born circa 1822 then. But the date for Emma matches my 'Eliza' who doesn't appear. Unless I have confounded Eliza with Emma? I have Emma born circa 1837 (1851 Census for St John's Hampstead (Parish)) ???
Ric
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I did see this earlier but discounted it because of father's occupation, but....
St Mary the Virgin Norwood Green Ealing
January 15th 1832
POWELL Mary Elizabeth daughter of Thomas POWELL Labourer and his wife Charlotte, Southett??
This is the marriage date please?
St John at Hampstead Camden
February 29th 1824
POWELL Sarah daughter of Thomas and Charlotte POWELL, Servant, Hampstead. Born February 2nd 1824.
Karenlee
Sarah's date of birth? I think I am confused here because it is earlier than the marriage date?
Thanks,
Ric
They are both baptism records sorry Ric... should have noted that ....
Got that with thanks! :)
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Not finding a marriage for either Charlotte or Elizabeth daughters of Thomas and Charlotte POWELL.
This looks like the best match so far for a marriage for Thomas and Charlotte.... so it might be the one you are after....
St George Hanover Square Westminster
Thomas POWELL of this Parish and Charlotte MARLES of this Parish were married in this Church by Banns this 13th day of March 1821 by James Glen Curate. Thomas POWELL made his mark and Charlotte MARLES signed her name. Witnesses were Thomas BRIGHTWELL and Mary Ann HARMSWORTH who married on the same day and were the entry above Thomas and Charlotte.
The only way that you will know for sure what Charlotte's maiden name was is to buy a Birth Certificate for one of the children born post 1838.
Karenlee
Righto! :)
Great searching!! :D
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Eliza POWELL appears on the 1851 Census which I gave you earlier...only found her marriage not her baptism yet.
Karenlee
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Not seeing Henry POWELL on Census after 1851 so wonder if this is him...
St John at Hampstead Camden Burials
May 17th 1854
POWELL Henry of Hampstead aged 23 Years died May 15th 1854
Karenlee
Could be. I have his DOB as circa 1829 so the dates almost tally.
Ric
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This is Eliza's baptism was transcribed as BOWELL
St John at Hampstead Camden
March 7th 1845
POWELL Eliza daughter of Thomas POWELL Labourer and his wife Charlotte of Hampstead. Born February 10th 1845.
And Henry.... was BOWEL
St John Hampstead Camden
September 3rd 1826
POWELL Henry son of Thomas POWELL Labourer and his wife Charlotte of Hampstead. Born August 1st 1826.
Karenlee
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Baptism of Elizabeth also transcribed incorrectly
St John Hampstead Camden
October 23rd 1821
POWELL Elizabeth daughter of Thomas POWELL Labourer and his wife Charlotte of Hampstead. Born September 23rd 1821,
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Following up on Elizabeth POWELL born 1821 ish and this is the closest I can find on a census for her.. not been able to find a marriage...
1861 Census England Middlesex Westminster St Margaret
RG9/53/11/27
2 New Court
POWELL
Elizabeth Head Wid 38 Laundress Middlesex Hampstead
Albert NORRIS Son Unmarr 5 Scholar Middlesex Westminster
Was Albert like Louisa Mary... born out of wedlock but given his father's surname. Elizabeth styled herself widow so as to avoid gossip???
Then I found on the 1881 ... Albert NORRIS born 1856 Westminster married to Amy... I tracked his marriage certificate and in the space for details about Father.... it simply says Dead... no name or occupation... just Dead.
Probably means born out of wedlock....
Karenlee
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This is Eliza's baptism was transcribed as BOWELL
St John at Hampstead Camden
March 7th 1845
POWELL Eliza daughter of Thomas POWELL Labourer and his wife Charlotte of Hampstead. Born February 10th 1845.
And Henry.... was BOWEL
St John Hampstead Camden
September 3rd 1826
POWELL Henry son of Thomas POWELL Labourer and his wife Charlotte of Hampstead. Born August 1st 1826.
Karenlee
Thanks - yes dates tally for Eliza. I have 1829 for Henry but tollerably close.
Ric
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Baptism of Elizabeth also transcribed incorrectly
St John Hampstead Camden
October 23rd 1821
POWELL Elizabeth daughter of Thomas POWELL Labourer and his wife Charlotte of Hampstead. Born September 23rd 1821,
Elizabeth I have 1822. Definitely the right people! :)
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Following up on Elizabeth POWELL born 1821 ish and this is the closest I can find on a census for her.. not been able to find a marriage...
1861 Census England Middlesex Westminster St Margaret
RG9/53/11/27
2 New Court
POWELL
Elizabeth Head Wid 38 Laundress Middlesex Hampstead
Albert NORRIS Son Unmarr 5 Scholar Middlesex Westminster
Was Albert like Louisa Mary... born out of wedlock but given his father's surname. Elizabeth styled herself widow so as to avoid gossip???
Then I found on the 1881 ... Albert NORRIS born 1856 Westminster married to Amy... I tracked his marriage certificate and in the space for details about Father.... it simply says Dead... no name or occupation... just Dead.
Probably means born out of wedlock....
Karenlee
Many thanks
Would it be possible for me to go beyond Thomas POWELL? I think he is born abt 1799 and dies circa 1841-1857, I am quite interested in the paternal POWELL side and was wondering if I could get back to his father? Are there in fact birth certificates beyond 1800 or records of baptisms please?
Thanks again :)
Ric
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Ric
UK BMD Certificates are available from 1838 onwards. Prior to that you need Parish Registers... like the baptisms that I have been searching for you.
Going back from Thomas POWELL is possible... he does not appear on the 1851 Census which is disappointing because that would have told us where he was born. The 1841 says he was not born in the County of Middlesex.
Marriages before 1838 don't have parents of the bride and groom on them.
The age of Thomas POWELL on the 1841 Census is very hard to read..... it could be 42,45 or 48.
There is a burial record that might be useful as follows...'
St John at Hampstead Camden
May 4th 1845
POWELL Thomas of Hampstead died April 28th 1845 aged 53
Not being able to properly see his age in 1841 means that this could well be him and if it is then his birth year would be closer to 1792 than to 1800. His youngest child Eliza was baptised in April 1845.
Cheers
Karenlee
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Ric
UK BMD Certificates are available from 1838 onwards. Prior to that you need Parish Registers... like the baptisms that I have been searching for you.
Going back from Thomas POWELL is possible... he does not appear on the 1851 Census which is disappointing because that would have told us where he was born. The 1841 says he was not born in the County of Middlesex.
Marriages before 1838 don't have parents of the bride and groom on them.
The age of Thomas POWELL on the 1841 Census is very hard to read..... it could be 42,45 or 48.
There is a burial record that might be useful as follows...'
St John at Hampstead Camden
May 4th 1845
POWELL Thomas of Hampstead died April 28th 1845 aged 53
Not being able to properly see his age in 1841 means that this could well be him and if it is then his birth year would be closer to 1792 than to 1800. His youngest child Eliza was baptised in April 1845.
Cheers
Karenlee
Thanks Karenlee, I searched FreeBMD between 1841-1857 for Thomas's burial record and could not find that Hampstead entry, so this is gratefully received. Certainly gives me something to go by. Yes, I'd got 1845 for Eliza's birth, good to tally these dates.
Sincere thanks,
Ric
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St Pancras Parish Church Camden
April 8th 1861
BENWELL George Of Full Age Bachelor Labourer James Street Camden Town John BENWELL Dead
POWELL Louise Of Full Age Spinster James Street Camden Town Thomas POWELL Dead
Witnesses John Edward TOOMES and Mary Elizabeth TOOMES
So George BENWELL replaces George HUNT here please? Even though Geo HUNT is recorded as Louisa's child's father on her marraige certificate of 1883, between John INNELL and Louisa Mary POWELL?
St Pancras Parish Church Camden
September 20th 1851
TACK William Of Full Age Bachelor Labourer Park Street Thomas TACK Dead
POWELL Ann Of Full Age Spinster Park Street Thomas POWELL Dead
Witnesses were James TILBY and Sarah TILBY
So therefore it is possible that this is yours too...
Karenlee
Ann is new to me - with thanks :)
Ric
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Morning Ric
I found Ann on the 1841 Census and the witnesses at her marriage helped me to track Sarah's marriage. The only child of Thomas and Charlotte that I have not yet found anything other than census data for is Charlotte....
I was ready to dismiss the POWELL/BENWELL marriage until I saw the witnesses. Will chase them up on the census and see where they were and if there were any other children for Louisa.
As for the death for Thomas POWELL, if that is him, then he was buried in Hampstead but that does not mean his death was registered there...he may have died away from home and his body returned for burial in the family churchyard....... theory only of course.
Cheers
Karenlee
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It appears that Louisa had several more children with George BENWELL....
1881 Census England Middlesex Hampstead
RG11/166/67/47
7 Stamford Place
BENWELL
George Head Marr 46 Cab Driver out of Employ Middlesex Hampstead
Louisa Wife Marr 40 Middlesex Hampstead
George Son Unmarr 19 Groom Domestic Service Middlesex Hampstead
John Son Unmarr 16 Labourer Middlesex Hampstead
Clara Dau Unmarr 13 No Occupation Middlesex Hampstead
Alice Dau Unmarr 10 Scholar Middlesex Hampstead
Walter Son Unmarr 7 Scholar Middlesex Hampstead
Sarah Dau Unmarr 5 Scholar Middlesex Hampstead
Rose Dau Unmarr 2.5 Middlesex Hampstead
Emily Dau Unmarr 9mths Middlesex Hampstead
I will hunt down baptisms etc for these children
Cheers
Karenlee
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1871 Census England Middlesex Hampstead St John
RG10/190/78/27
Stamford Place
BENWELL
George Head Marr 36 Cab Man Middlesex Hampstead
Louisa Wife Marr 30 Laundress Middlesex Hampstead
George Son Unmarr 9 Scholar Middlesex Hampstead
John Son Unmarr 6 Scholar Middlesex Hampstead
Clara Dau Unmarr 4 Scholar Middlesex Hampstead
Alice Dau Unmarr 9mths Middlesex Hampstead
So keeping up the family tradition in working with horses and laundry by the looks...
Cheers
Karenlee
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Baptisms for the children of George and Louisa BENWELL
All in St John at Hampstead Camden
July 13th 1862
BENWELL George Edward son of George BENWELL, Waiter, and his wife Louisa of Hampstead. Born June 23rd 1862
November 27th 1864
BENWELL John son of George BENWELL, Labourer, and his wife Louisa of Hampstead. Born October 31st 1864
September 29th 1867
BENWELL Clara daughter of George BENWELL, Coachman, and his wife Louisa of Hampstead. Born September 2nd 1867
July 24th 1870
BENWELL Alice Elizabeth daughter of George BENWELL, Coachman, and his wife Louisa of Hampstead. Born June 24th 1870
December 1st 1893
BENWELL Rose daughter of George BENWELL, Cabdriver deceased, and his wife Louisa of 12 New End Hampstead. Born November 24th 1878
BENWELL Emily daughter of George BENWELL, Cabdriver deceased and his wife Louisa of 12 New End Hampstead. Born January 27th 1879
BENWELL Arthur son of George BENWELL, Cabdriver deceased, and his wife Louisa of 12 New End Hampstead. Born December 25th 1889
Christ Church Enfield
November 16th 1873
BENWELL Walter son of George BENWELL, Labourer, and his wife Louisa of Hampstead. No birth date supplied.
Unable to find a baptism entry for daughter Sarah born about 1876.
Cheers
Karenlee
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Morning Ric
I found Ann on the 1841 Census and the witnesses at her marriage helped me to track Sarah's marriage. The only child of Thomas and Charlotte that I have not yet found anything other than census data for is Charlotte....
I was ready to dismiss the POWELL/BENWELL marriage until I saw the witnesses. Will chase them up on the census and see where they were and if there were any other children for Louisa.
As for the death for Thomas POWELL, if that is him, then he was buried in Hampstead but that does not mean his death was registered there...he may have died away from home and his body returned for burial in the family churchyard....... theory only of course.
Cheers
Karenlee
Thanks Karenlee,
Nice in a way that the BENWELL/POWELL marriage came to light, so that Louisa was not solitary as it seemed from the earlier records.
Thomas POWELL: So would the Parish Registers for Hampstead 1845 throw any light on Thomas' place of birth please, he does not seem to have been born in Hampstead / Middlesex? Sorry if I am asking idiotic questions but I literally began exploring internet resources/Ancestry.com 5 days ago so am a real newb at this work. Back in the day I used to visit several major BMD offices before they all went online, and have not done a great deal of genalogical research since those times :-o
Anyway, many thanks again for your kind help! :)
Ric
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Ric
Bingo.... proof positive that this is your family... look at the witnesses to this marriage...
St John at Hampstead Camden
July 7th 1900
WEST Henry William 24 Bachelor Signalman 13 Prospect Street Sydenham Henry William WEST Gardener
BENWELL Sarah 24 Spinster 21 New End George BENWELL Deceased
Witnesses were George BENWELL Rose BENWELL and John INNELL
Phew.... thank goodness he was there as proof.....Sarah's address fit with Census as well. This clinches it for me that we are on the right track.
Karenlee
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Sorry Ric, our posts crossed.
There is nothing more on his burial record than what I sent you as it was direct from the Hampstead St John Parish Burials Register. I can do a search and see if anything else comes up in other sources.
Please don't think that asking questions is idiotic...how on earth would anyone ever learn anything if they did not ask. ;D
I will keep hunting the second family of Louisa POWELL/BENWELL and see if I can find anything else for you.
Cheers
Karenlee
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1891 Census England London Hampstead
RG12/106/18/29
12 New End
BENWELL
Louisa Head Wid 48 Laundress London Hampstead
Walter Son Unmarr 17 Errand Boy London Hampstead
Rose Dau Unmarr 12 Scholar London Hampstead
Emily Dau Unmarr 10 Scholar London Hampstead
1901 Census England London Hampstead
RG13/121/68/15
4 Gardener Road
BENWELL
Louisa Head Wid 58 Laundress London Hampstead
George Son Unmarr 38 Road Labourer London Hampstead
Emily Dau Unmarr 20 Laundress London Hampstead
George CROUCHER Lodger Marr 64 Cab Driver Groom Sussex Balcomb
This is most likely Louisa's burial entry from the Parish Register...
St John at Hampstead Camden
June 17th 1927
BENWELL Louisa of 4 Gardener Road aged 84
Cheers
Karenlee
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Ric
Bingo.... proof positive that this is your family... look at the witnesses to this marriage...
St John at Hampstead Camden
July 7th 1900
WEST Henry William 24 Bachelor Signalman 13 Prospect Street Sydenham Henry William WEST Gardener
BENWELL Sarah 24 Spinster 21 New End George BENWELL Deceased
Witnesses were George BENWELL Rose BENWELL and John INNELL
Phew.... thank goodness he was there as proof.....Sarah's address fit with Census as well. This clinches it for me that we are on the right track.
Karenlee
Yes! John INNELL! Not that many INNELL's about at the best of times!
Gosh, thank goodness there are genalogical sleuths like yourself and someone else I know to make sense of all this data!
Mention of WEST rings a bell for me - probably sheer coincidence - there are WEST's mentioned on the other side of my tree, but over Essex way.
WEST Henry William, 24, Bachelor, Signalman, 13 Prospect Street, Sydenham, 1900. He may have worked upon the Crystal Palace Higher Level station track which served the Crystal Palace. That would be amazing, I have walked the remnant of that track and there is a picture of a signal box here [half way down the page] taken shortly after the High Level station was abandoned
http://www.abandonedstations.org.uk/Crystal_Palace_line_1.html
I have never understood how so much effort expended in building tunnels, bridges and quite amazing feats of architectural brickwork could have been just thrown away throughout the 50's and 60's, you'd have thought all that industry could have been set to serve some worthwhile purpose?
Never mind though.
Thanks,
Ric
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This is interesting Ric..... looks like Walter BENWELL was a Navy man....
1901 Census Royal Navy Gibraltar "Minerva"
BENWELL Walter Marr 27 Private born Hampstead Middlesex
UK National Archives has a record for a Walter BENWELL Reg # 7182 Royal Marine Light Infantry Chatham Division enlisted Jan 30th 1893 born October 30th 1873.
Poss marr for him
Dec Qtr 1898 West Ham 4a 470
BENWELL Walter
ELEY Mary Ann
Karen
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This is interesting Ric..... looks like Walter BENWELL was a Navy man....
1901 Census Royal Navy Gibraltar "Minerva"
BENWELL Walter Marr 27 Private born Hampstead Middlesex
Poss marr for him
Dec Qtr 1898 West Ham 4a 470
BENWELL Walter
ELEY Mary Ann
Karen
Quite amazing! The surname is unknown to me, until now. And the surname INNELL has never to my knowledge been satisfactorily (meaning) explained.
Ric
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Hi
This is the Thomas Powell death registration in 1845 - at that time Hampstead would registered in Edmonton registration district.
Deaths Jun 1845 POWEL Thomas Edmonton 3 111
The death certificate will not give any further information on Thomas' origins.
Civil registration in England and Wales began 1st July 1837.
Marriage 1820
Hampstead
Thos Powell bachelor
Charlotte Willoughby spinster
Regards
Valda
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Valda
Many thanks for clearing up the death for Thomas. BUT where oh where did you get that marriage from..... several online trees have that couple but none have any kind of documentary proof.
AHA just found it on Pallot's Marriage Index.... :-[ :-[ :-[
Cheers
Karenlee
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Hi
From a marriage index.
Hampstead registers are not covered by the IGI (see Hugh Wallis' website for IGI coverage though it is not completely up to date for recent additions from Bishops Transcripts)
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountryEngland.htm#PageTitle
The Ancestry digitalisation of the parish registers held at the LMA and the Guildhall is of course still quite patchy for the period where the registers have been indexed (post 1813 for baptisms and burials, post 1754 for marriages).
For St John Hampstead (the parish church) if you check the coverage it is 1801-1810, 1828 and complete from 1837 onwards.
The usefulness of Ancestry is it clearly indicates in the drop down menu its coverage so far of each church's baptism, marriage and burial registers
In this post I gave details at the time of the sort of coverage for marriages the Ancestry project had so far achieved using as an example just the churches in the square mile of the City of London and what was still missing.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,430983.0.html
The IGI is an imperfect index and so is Ancestry at this point and will be for sometime to come because the project that has been taken on is really quite enormous. Other marriage indexes are also imperfect as far as the London area goes, but taken as a whole there is now a far greater chance of finding marriages. The other marriage indexes which are still important to check, other than the local family history societies indexes which are not online, are Phillimore, Boyds and Pallots.
They are all detailed in Dawn's very helpful guide at the top of the London and Middlesex boards
Requests for parish register look-ups - Important information
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,404050.0.html
Regards
Valda
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There is a possible baptism for Charlotte WILLOUGHBY
St John at Hampstead Camden
November 24th 1817
WILLOUGHBY Charlotte daughter of William WILLOUGHBY, Shoemaker and his wife Elizabeth of Hampstead. Born April 3rd 1803.
I will see if I can find any possible siblings or a possible marriage for the parents.
Cheers
Karenlee
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Possible siblings for Charlotte
St John at Hampstead Camden
Thomas son of William and Elizabeth WILLOUGHBY born March 12th 1800 baptised January 31st 1802
Mary Elizabeth daughter of William and Elizabeth WILLOUGHBY born May 1798 baptised January 31st 1802
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St John at Hampstead Camden
William son of William and Elizabeth WILLOUGHBY born March 27th 1797 baptised April 16th 1797.
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There is a possible baptism for Charlotte WILLOUGHBY
St John at Hampstead Camden
November 24th 1817
WILLOUGHBY Charlotte daughter of William WILLOUGHBY, Shoemaker and his wife Elizabeth of Hampstead. Born April 3rd 1803.
I will see if I can find any possible siblings or a possible marriage for the parents.
Cheers
Karenlee
Thanks. So, Charlotte WILLOUGHBY born about 1803.
Ric
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Hi
This is the Thomas Powell death registration in 1845 - at that time Hampstead would registered in Edmonton registration district.
Deaths Jun 1845 POWEL Thomas Edmonton 3 111
The death certificate will not give any further information on Thomas' origins.
Civil registration in England and Wales began 1st July 1837.
Marriage 1820
Hampstead
Thos Powell bachelor
Charlotte Willoughby spinster
Regards
Valda
Many thanks Valda and also Karenlee!
Ric
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Just found this!
Pallot's Marriage Index for England: 1780 - 1837
Name:Charlotte Willoughby
Spouse:Thos Powell
Spouse Comments:61 [?]
Marriage Date:1820
Parish:Hampstead
Apols if this is old news?
Have no idea if this cert would throw any more light on the parents of Thomas POWELL?
Kind thanks
Ric
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Hi
Civil registration began 1st July 1837 which is when certificates were issued. Before that there were only parish registers.
This webpage gives you information on an examples of marriage registers between 1754-1st July 1837.
http://www.british-genealogy.com/resources/registers/7marpre1837.htm
Pallot's marriage index is a series of marriages indexed on small cards/slips. Thomas Powell and Charlotte Willoughby's card/slip is number 61. The next Thomas Powell card, a marriage to an interestingly named female Humphrey Fraser is card/slip 113. Pallots nearly always wrote out two cards/slips so a hand search under either name would find a card/slip. Both cards/slips in this case are numbered 61.
Regards
Valda
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Hi
Civil registration began 1st July 1837 which is when certificates were issued. Before that there were only parish registers.
This webpage gives you information on an examples of marriage registers between 1754-1st July 1837.
http://www.british-genealogy.com/resources/registers/7marpre1837.htm
Pallot's marriage index is a series of marriages indexed on small cards/slips. Thomas Powell and Charlotte Willoughby's card/slip is number 61. The next Thomas Powell card, a marriage to an interestingly named female Humphrey Fraser is card/slip 113. Pallots nearly always wrote out two cards/slips so a hand search under either name would find a card/slip. Both cards/slips in this case are numbered 61.
Regards
Valda
Thanks Valda,
I note the page states that
" ~ parents names were not recorded, although they may be witnesses. It was fairly common for a brother or sister to be a witness, or friends, or the churchwardens".
So it's a 50:50 chance there may be parents' names included?
Ric
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PS. Pallot's Marriage Index for England: 1780 - 1837
Name:Charlotte Willoughby
Spouse:Thos Powell
There will only be one certificate for this marriage won't there? When I looked up the date it seemed to show two different thumbnail images for the same marriage?
Ric
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Hi
Civil registration began 1st July 1837 which is when certificates were issued. Before that there were only parish registers.
This webpage gives you information on an examples of marriage registers between 1754-1st July 1837.
http://www.british-genealogy.com/resources/registers/7marpre1837.htm
Pallot's marriage index is a series of marriages indexed on small cards/slips. Thomas Powell and Charlotte Willoughby's card/slip is number 61. The next Thomas Powell card, a marriage to an interestingly named female Humphrey Fraser is card/slip 113. Pallots nearly always wrote out two cards/slips so a hand search under either name would find a card/slip. Both cards/slips in this case are numbered 61.
Regards
Valda
Oops! I see what you mean ~
The Pallot's 1820 marriage record just gives the bare facts - 'POWELL Thos & Charlotte WILLOUGHBY, Hampstead' with 'x' by each name.
Have fielded the POWELL line on several forums so maybe someone will connect with what I already have, and supply some earlier links.
Many thanks to all for help :)
Ric
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Morning
There are a few likely WILLOUGHBY entries on the 1841 that might be useful.... emphasis on the LIKELY and MIGHT... no proof yet.. but it's worth noting and keeping in case...
1841 Census England Middlesex St John Hampstead
HO107/674/20/35
New End
WILLOUGHBY
Thomas 49 Greengrocer Born in County
Mary 48 Laundress Born in County
William 15 Born in County
Picked this one out because of the Charlotte...
1841 Census England Middlesex St James Clerkenwell St James
HO107/661/32/12
Clerkenwell Close
WILLOUGHBY
William 45 Storekeeper Born in County
Mary 40 Born in County
Charlotte 13 Born in County
William 7 Born in County
Cheers
Karenlee
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Morning
There are a few likely WILLOUGHBY entries on the 1841 that might be useful.... emphasis on the LIKELY and MIGHT... no proof yet.. but it's worth noting and keeping in case...
1841 Census England Middlesex St John Hampstead
HO107/674/20/35
New End
WILLOUGHBY
Thomas 49 Greengrocer Born in County
Mary 48 Laundress Born in County
William 15 Born in County
Picked this one out because of the Charlotte...
1841 Census England Middlesex St James Clerkenwell St James
HO107/661/32/12
Clerkenwell Close
WILLOUGHBY
William 45 Storekeeper Born in County
Mary 40 Born in County
Charlotte 13 Born in County
William 7 Born in County
Cheers
Karenlee
Thanks Karenlee,
I'm afraid I can't find these :-o
Am looking for a Thomas WILLOUGHBY (born abt 1792) and a William WILLOUGHBY born abt 1796 both in Middlesex?
Is there a way to use the 'HO107/661/32/12' type references to locate these censuses please?
Thanks again,
Ric
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Ric
Just use the reference numbers for each entry and you should get to the righ entry. Or alternatively just enter the surname, county and birth year of 1800 +/- 5 years.
Karenlee
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Ric
Just use the reference numbers for each entry and you should get to the righ entry. Or alternatively just enter the surname, county and birth year of 1800 +/- 5 years.
Karenlee
Thanks,
I put 'HO107/674/20/35' into the keyword search for the 1841 Census. It did not take me to WILLOUGHBY but curiously to CLOUSER which is the name of a witness to an 1883 INNELL/POWELL mariage certificate!
Sorry, I am still quite new to all this :-o
Ric
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That's okay Ric... I have sent you an email that I hope helps a bit.. if not just let me know and I'll get you sorted out... ;D
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That's okay Ric... I have sent you an email that I hope helps a bit.. if not just let me know and I'll get you sorted out... ;D
Excellent + many thanks! :) ;)
Ric
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Hi
By tradition marriages tend to take place in the female's parish, which in the case of the City of London and metropolitan areas around it might very well be the parish the female as a servant worked in. In the case of the Willoughby/Powell marriage you know Charlotte was born in Hampstead so there is a quite a strong chance that at least one of the witnesses, if she didn't pick a friend, may be related to her. In the case of Thomas who you know from the 1841 census was not born in Middlesex and therefore not born Hampstead, that unlesss there is any evidence that he and family members moved to Hampstead and the move towards the London area looking for work was just undertake by him alone, or to Hampstead by him alone, then it is very unlikely any witnesses will be related to him.
There will be no 'certificate'. The marriage will be an entry in the parish church marriage register. The term certificate applies to birth,marriage and death certificates. These only came into existence after the start of civil registration (1st July 1837).
Regards
Valda
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Hi
By tradition marriages tend to take place in the female's parish, which in the case of the City of London and metropolitan areas around it might very well be the parish the female as a servant worked in. In the case of the Willoughby/Powell marriage you know Charlotte was born in Hampstead so there is a quite a strong chance that at least one of the witnesses, if she didn't pick a friend, may be related to her. In the case of Thomas who you know from the 1841 census was not born in Middlesex and therefore not born Hampstead, that unlesss there is any evidence that he and family members moved to Hampstead and the move towards the London area looking for work was just undertake by him alone, or to Hampstead by him alone, then it is very unlikely any witnesses will be related to him.
There will be no 'certificate'. The marriage will be an entry in the parish church marriage register. The term certificate applies to birth,marriage and death certificates. These only came into existence after the start of civil registration (1st July 1837).
Regards
Valda
Thanks Valda,
So it looks as if tracing Thomas POWELL beyond his apparent move to Hampstead is going to prove something of a challenge? Unless there were other members of his family with him, but even they would not have their place of origin recorded if from outside the parish? I did read that there had been an influx or the POWELL surname to London during the early 17th century and this 1891 distribution map tends to confirm that -
http://www.ancestry.com/facts/POWELL-family-history-uk.ashx
Incidently, I can remember a whole range of these distribution maps until fairly recently, but the 1891 map seems to be the only one showing now?
Many thanks :)
Ric
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PS. Apparent POWELL name-changes (1891 Census): there are a lot of these? For example:
David Powell (Head) 77
Sarah Launders (daughter / father’s name ‘David’) 46
Thos Powells 25
Sarah H Saunders 16
Edward Saunders 14
http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1891wales&indiv=try&h=297763
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Hi
There would have been a large influx of practically every surname into London and the metropolitan areas which surrounded it over time, though they did not become officially London until the later period of the C19th. London historically has always been a magnet.
Powell is a relatively common surname for this country - the 76th most common surname (in a country of over 56 million) so at present about 70,000 people with that surname.
National Statistics website
http://www.taliesin-arlein.net/names/search.php
The 1841 census has over 2,000 Powells living in the county of Middlesex which would include the square mile of the City of London.
I'm not sure I understand the relevance of the 1891 census entry in Wales you refer to - David Powell living with his married (and widowed) daughter Sarah Saunders?
Regards
Valda
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The 1841 census has over 2,000 Powells living in the county of Middlesex which would include the square mile of the City of London.
I'm not sure I understand the relevance of the 1891 census entry in Wales you refer to - David Powell living with his married (and widowed) daughter Sarah Saunders?
Many thanks Valda,
It's just that I noticed a lot of mixed surnames on that and other POWELL (family group) censuses. Whatever the POWELL name origin it appears to have 'morphed' considerably over the centuries, and I wondered if the process was still unfolding a century ago; though perhaps not, as you point out - the cause of separate surnames in this instance is by that of earlier marriage.
Just to recap please: my options for following Thomas POWELL (b. circa 1792) are rather limited now, due to his being born beyond the parish of his marriage?
Thanks again,
Ric
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Hi
The major reason you will have difficulty tracing him is he didn't live till the 1851 census which could have given his place of birth.
Powell as a surname is well established so it isn't morphing really over the centuries past the period of the middle ages which is the same for most surnames.
Possible origins
ap Howel(l) (ap Welsh for son) C13th
Dweller by the pool - Powel/Pawel C12th
Regards
Valda
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The major reason you will have difficulty tracing him is he didn't live till the 1851 census which could have given his place of birth.
Thanks Valda,
Then I am stuck :-|
Never mind, who knows what might turn up! :)
Best regards,
Ric
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Hi,
Just to touch base after a while away. Re. the above thread: Thomas Powell who married Charlotte (surname unknown) appears to be my great, great, great grandfather on the paternal side of my family.
Many thanks for so much help :)
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Very faint and hard to read....
1841 Census England Middlesex St John Hampstead
HO107/674/15/24
POWELL
Thomas 42 Labourer Not born in County
Charlotte 38 Born in County
Elizabeth 19 Born in County
Sarah 17 Born in County
Henry 15 Born in County
Ann 12 Born in County
Mary 16 Born in County
Charlotte 7 Born in County
Emma 4 Born in County
Louisa 6mths Born in County
Cheers
Karenlee
Thanks, but I found this:
'Thomas Powell Born 1798, Edmonton, St John Hampstead, Middlesex, London.'
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?datasetname=1841%20england%2c%20wales%20%26%20scotland%20census&firstname=thomas&firstname_variants=true&firstnamesother=charlotte&firstnamesother_variants=true&keywordsplace=hampstead%2c%20(london%2c%20middlesex)%2c%20england&lastname=powell
??? ???