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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cambridgeshire => Topic started by: Matt R on Saturday 15 May 10 16:49 BST (UK)
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Hello all,
My 10x gt grandfather, Robert Moore, was born 1655 and on some sources such as his will (made 1711, he died 1713) state he was "of Linton", Cambridgeshire. I know he was a grocer and there is a possibility that some so-called "Trade Tokens" were made bearing his name.
Is anybody able to access Linton parish records, who may be able to find out more on Robert, please? i.e baptism? He married Sarah Wilmot in 1682 at Bartlow, after agreeing with her father that he could.
I am slo trying to find out more about him and if this supposed trade token lead adds up to anything.
Thanks for reading,
Matt
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Have just got Linton regs and have found:
Robert son of John More bapt 9 Oct 1646 no mother given
Other children baptised as More/Moores at time with a John as parent:
28 Jan 1643 John son of John & Alce
27 Feb 1648 William son of John & Ann
Burials. A John Moor was buried 11 May 1729, weaver
21 Nov 1709 John, parish clerk
2 Jun 1706 John - no trade given
I could not find a marriage for John. I have family in this area but they also cross to other nearby parishes, eg Balsham or over border into Essex eg Halstead etc so you might also have to look outside Linton.
Hope this helps
Regards
Steph
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HI Steph,
That looks likely to be my Robert, although it means he would have been in his 30's at the time he married Sarah Wilmott in Bartlow, 1682.
As for his mother's name I cannot say for sure. He had daughters called both Anne and Alice so either indication is cancelled out by the other, however he gave the name Anne to his second daughter, and Alice to his fifth.
Can I ask if the records you have access to are transcribed please? My Moore family in Linton were seemingly relatively moderate in size so I do not know how many would appear in the registers.
Thanks again for this baptism of Robert. I am glad I have a date of baptism for him...right in the middle of the English Civil War no less!
Regards,
Matt :)
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I bought my cd from the Cambridgeshire Family History Society and it contains transcribed registers for St Mary Linton 1559-1950 and also registers for the Linton Independent Chapel.
Other early Moors/Mores from baptisms
1597 8 Dec Agnes d/o John
1596 11 Apr Barnham? s/o John
1599 15 Apr Elizabeth d/o John
1600 24 Jun Robert s/o John & Frances
1619 7 Dec Andrewe s/o Elizabeth base
1625 15 Mar William s/o Robte & Elizabeth
1627 30 Dec Marcye d/o George & Anne
1634 20 Dec Anne d/o Edmunde & Hellen
1635 5 Feb Marye d/o Edmund & Hellen [BT Ellen]
1637 21 Mar Hellen d/o Edmund & Hellen
1640 13 Dec Edmund s/o Edmund & Hellen
1643 18 Feb Margaret d/o Edmond & Hellen
1644 28 Jan John s/o John & Alce
1646 9 Oct Robert s/o John
1648 William s/o John & Anne
Marriages:
1581 Moore Thomas & Ursle Mallyn
1676 Moore Robert & Anne Williamson of Royston
Burials:
1593 21 Mar More the child of John
1596 18 Apr Barnham child of John More
1597 9 Jan Ann d/o John More
1598 12 June Edward generosus (gentleman)
1601 10 Jan More John
1604 24 Nov More Katherine gent
1608 More 2 Jun More Frances wid
1628 15 May More Daniell s/o John & Anne
1631 3 Sept More Anne d/o John & Anne
1677 11 May Moor Mary of Robt & Anne
I would say that it def. looks as though the Moors came into the parish from elsewhere some time in the late 1500s. There are Moor/More details at later dates for baptisms etc but I tried to give you details that might help you structure your family in that time frame. Hope this helps
Regards
Steph
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Steph,
Thankyou for the lists of baptisms, marriages and burials above. The reason why I asked if they were transcribed is I did not want you going through all original images searching for the above entries. It is a shame Robert's mother is not mentioned on his baptism, I cannot say for certain whether his mum was Anne or Alice...as he gave both names to two of his daughters.
I am very grateful for the info you have provided. I wish I could get back further but I think I will have difficulty now. Could I be really cheeky and ask if you could put up some Linton entries for, say, the early 1700's please? I am trying to find Robert's burial which I believe was shortly after 1711 (when he made his Will) and his wife Sarah. It would be good to know when they died as I can home in on a specific time-frame.
I realise this is asking more of you than originally intended but would greatly appreciate any help you could provide :)
Regards and thanks again for the lookups in the above post.
Matt :)
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I honestly don't mind at all, so many others have done look ups for me that it's nice to return the favour on this site.
I have a burial for Robert Moor 20 May 1713 and it states he was a grocer so this must be the right one also Sarah Moor, widow, buried 11 Dec 1717.
Regards
Steph
PS I know what you mean about transcripts I have Witney regs, some transcribed which are fine others scanned and 'unsearchable' so need reading through!
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Thankyou very much Steph, appreciated once more...or should I say moore ;) *cringe*
That is the couple I am looking for, thanks a bunch :)
I will send you a PM consequently concerning other names I have in the area...maybe you have some in your own tree!
I shall be in touch shortly through private message. Thankyou very much once again for the lookups you have provided. It is appreciated!
Regards,
Matt :)
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Trade tokens were very common at that sort of time. They were issued by traders when there were shortages of coins. I have a feeling it was connected with a fire at the mint. The token was in effect a pledge redeemable in goods but not necessarily for coins. These tokens never received official sanction from the government but were accepted and circulated quite widely.
The tokens were usually made of copper or brass, but pewter, lead and occasionally leather tokens are also found. Most were not given a specific denomination and were intended to pass as farthings, but there are also a large number of halfpenny and sometimes penny tokens. Halfpenny and penny tokens usually, but not always, bear the denomination on their face. We have one for our ancestor who was a dyer in Yorkshire. It says "Henry King his halfpenny" on it.
Andrea
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Thankyou for your insight, Andrea!
I know the chances of finding one of these tokens is very slim, but it would be nice if one ever ended up in a museum somewhere. I am interested however, in the occupations held by those who used them, obviously modestly wealthy shopkeepers and, like Robert Moore was, grocers and farmers.
I did manage to find Robert mentioned on this here farthing website:
http://www.britishfarthings.com/Tokens/17th-Century/Cambridgeshire/Cambridgeshire.html
Interesting to say the least!
Thanks again for your thoughts :)
Matt
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A more negative use of tokens and the like was the truck or the company shop.
This was often used in S. Wales by the Baileys and others in their ironworks.
The truck or company shop was another method of control over the workers, and an extra source of income for the ironmaster. Prices were often 20% higher than in local shops and during the frequent cash flow crisis at the works, goods from the company shop were given to the workers in lieu of wages.
see http://www.thomasgenweb.com/nantyglo_round_towers.html
"NANTYGLO ROUND TOWERS
WHY WERE THE ROUND TOWERS BUILT?"
and
The early shopkeepers in Brynmawr found their trade somewhat restricted by the competition of the Company Shops at Clydach, Llanelly Hill and Nantyglo, and from about 1840 onwards in Brynmawr itself. Although the Truck Acts of 1817 and 1820 made payment in kind illegal, the fact that wages were drawn in money only once in six or eight weeks and also that debt at the Company Shop was recognized as a kind of security for continued employment, made it difficult for workmen to trade elsewhere.
http://www.thomasgenweb.com/brynmawr_history.html
Bob
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Thankyou for those two links Bob
Sounds as if people were only trying to survive, but in the Bailey brother's case and in other cases dotted around the country, maybe to resist an oppression of workforces or workmen.
I have had another quick search on google books, which led me to discover a very short piece on Robert Moore...literally about five or six words but he is mentioned as having the Grocer's Arms (guild) on his particular tokens.
Very interesting!
Matt.
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Hello all,
My 10x gt grandfather, Robert Moore, was born 1655 and on some sources such as his will (made 1711, he died 1713) state he was "of Linton", Cambridgeshire. I know he was a grocer and there is a possibility that some so-called "Trade Tokens" were made bearing his name.
Matt
This seems unlikely to me, Matt.
According to Williamson (which is THE work of reference on 17th century trade tokens) the Robert Moore token (Cambridgeshire #145) is a farthing which has, on its obverse, ROBERT MOORE and the Grocers' arms; and on the reverse OF LYNTON . 1667 with the initials R . M. in the field.
If your great x10 grandfather was born in 1655, then he is unlikely to have been the token issuer of 1667, being only 12 years old at the time.
It may well be that the token issuer is his father (your great x11 grandfather), or maybe an uncle.
What strikes me as interesting is that only the initials RM appear on the token. It was far more common for three initials to appear (the third being usually the wife's first initial). So this token issuer MIGHT (but this is merely speculation from a very thin evidence base) have been unmarried (thus an uncle of your great x10 grandfather) or widowed by 1667 (in which case possibly your great x11 grandfather).
It's a pity your token-issuing ancestor was in Cambridgeshire not Bedfordshire. For Bedfordshire, there is Gaunt, Bedfordshire Seventeenth Century Tokens, which includes extensive research in the parish records and probate records for all of the token issuers.
I have searched for all of my known 17th century ancestors in Williamson, and none of them appears to have been a token issuer. I think you are very lucky to have one ... as obtaining one of the tokens issued by an ancestor some 12 generations ago would be a really wonderful, tangible link to your remote family history. I'm jealous.
(Nigel Clarke is the man you want to talk to if you want to try to track down one of your ancestor's tokens: he is the country's leading dealer in 17th century traders' tokens, and has supplied a number of the tokens in my collection, as well as my copy of Gaunt.)
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Hey!
I know this thread is almost 13 years old now, but I came across it while scouring the internet for information. Does anyone know if OP Matt R ever managed to track down a Robert Moore farthing?
While going through a collection of coins I was given as a youngster by a detectorist family member, I stumbled across this token and a few google searches led me to this thread!
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That's the Robert Moore farthing, and no mistake!
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Blimey - I've just come back to this after receiving a notification about a reply and I am quite pleasantly surprised!
I had completely forgotten about this thread, hence why I have not responded, so to both jbml and Usagi, I apologise for the silence.
Usagi: it is fantastic to see that you have acquired a Robert Moore token - what a find, especially in knowing it is as old as we believe (1660s!) I'm excited to see one, so thank you for sharing your photo!
jbml: I apologise to you in particular for my seeming ignorance and lack of response. This must have simply passed me by and I have not looked at this branch for many years now. However, in spite of that, I did find Robert's baptism, not in 1655 as estimated but actually in 1646. He was the son of John Moore and I know nothing about John or any other family. However, Robert did not marry until 1682 which would explain why these tokens did not bear the name of a spouse. However, it is still a possibility the tokens were issued by an uncle I suppose! Thank you for your reply and advice, albeit 13 years late!
Admittedly, I'm pleasantly surprised by a return to this thread and might have to dust off the old Moore family tree and taken another look at it now!
Kind regards,
Matt.
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As far as I can tell from info online, Robert Moore only minted farthings for a single year run in 1667 - the coin is stamped with that year too, so it seems to hold true. This would fit nicely in your timeline, too. It's in relatively good condition for it's age, with a few nicks off the edges and some corrosion on the surface, but all the details and type on the faces are nice and clear.
Matt R: I'm tempted to get it appraised and evaluated, but if it's not worth the moon or donating to a museum, would you want it? It'd make for a good story, and serve as a physical link to your heritage!
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It's great, isn't it? We family hostorians LIKE old things ... this is probably the only site on teh net where people don't complain if you bring a 13-year old thread back to life.
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It's quite a find and I agree; the coin is in relatively good condition for its age.
It would mean that my Robert minted this coins in the year he was at the age of 21 or 22. It might be the case that his father helped him do this, but he stopped after 1667. I'd be very interested in acquiring the coin itself - I'm happy to pay for it too so please let me know if you have any luck with valuations! This is a great link back to my ancestor so I'd happily negotiate a price :)
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He didn't mint them himself ... there's been quite a lot of work done on the die varieties for seventeenth century traders' tokens (of which about 10 000 varieties are known; and it is believed that this represents perhaps a third of teh total number there were).
It seems that there were perhaps three or four main producers, and that their agents toured the country taking orders from individual traders. Whever possible they used as many common features as possible so that the dies could be prepared with a minimum of punches. Economy of scale, as it were.
Market value of these tokens varies according to condition and interest in the particular token, but you can generally expect to pay between £40 and £200 for them in collectable grades. The most sought-after one, like the heart-shaped Biggleswade Overssers token, can get up to about £400.
From your photograph, and assuming that the other face is in similar condition, I'd say that the base token should be graded good Fine. The detail and the inscription are clear and it has a nice patina to it. But the damage to the flan is quite substantial and will have a fairly deleterious effect on its overall value. I would suggest that a fair price for this one is perhaps £25 - £40.
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Actually ... that may even be a little optimistic: compare for instance the quality and condition here, and it's only £34
https://rarecoinsandtokens.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=84_197_403&products_id=5157&zenid=es1503426j34nk4lv0ct1i34a7
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Hello there, new member today here.
I apologise in advance for hijacking this thread, but I would dearly love to contact Matt R.
Matt R, we share family history with the McMillans. My great great grandmother is Catherine McMillan, sister to your great great grandmother Mary Ann. I've recently come across your posts and fantastic blog on the family and hope that you will see this and contact me. I'm unsure how else I can reach out to you, but this seems the best way for me.
Looking forward to hearing from you